VirnetX reverses ruling invalidating patents used against Apple

Posted:
in General Discussion
VirnetX has won another battle in its patent lawsuit with Apple, convincing the US Court of Appeals to vacate and remand decisions by the US Patent Office's Trial and Appeal Board that invalidated two patents. The new ruling gives VirnetX more leverage in receiving the $439 million the courts declared Apple owes.

FaceTime, a technology that became the subject of a patent lawsuit against Apple by VirnetX
FaceTime, a technology that became the subject of a patent lawsuit against Apple by VirnetX


In the latest installment of the ongoing saga that is VirnetX versus Apple, VirnetX has secured a legal win concerning two patents that it has claimed Apple infringed. In 2016, the USPTO Patent Trial and Appeal Board argued four of the patents were invalid, as they didn't actually cover new inventions. This effectively prevented VirnetX using these particular patents against Apple.

On Monday, the US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit issued an opinion on two of the patents in question, specifically patent numbers 6,502,135 and 7,490,151. The opinion vacated and remanded decisions on both. The Court of Appeals disagreed with how the board had previously ruled, and in particular over the decision that these patents had unpatentable claims.

It is believed the board "abused its discretion in denying VirnetX the opportunity to file a motion for additional discovery as to real party-in-interest issues," a statement from VirnetX about the decision reads.

There were also issues with "many of the Board's positions as to the prior art lacked substantial evidence," and the belief the board "misconstructed the claims."

VirnetX CEO and President Kendall Larsen claims "We are extremely pleased with the Federal Court's decision which vindicates many of VirnetX's arguments about the Patent Board's decisions." Larsen also notes the decision follows a similar ruling on June 28 relating to patent 7,418,504, where a finding against three "unpatentable" claims were also vacated.

The decision could have a considerable impact against Apple, depending on what the courts allow VirnetX to do. As the patents were previously not able to be used to sue Apple, there may be a possibility VirnetX may reattempt the legal action, though at the very least, it strengthens its case to claim the $439 million Apple was ordered to pay for patent infringement.

In January, Apple was denied an appeal on the verdict, but it has also petitioned the entire Federal Circuit to rehear a panel discussion, in the hope it the appeal denial could be reconsidered.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 44
    pslicepslice Posts: 77member
    Surprised this court wasn't in Eastern Texas. I don't know whether the allegations are true or not, but this stuff drives the cost of equipment to go up. Why doesn't Apple use technology they create or work with other companies to use? It's called a contract. $439Million is a lot of money.
    AppleExposed
  • Reply 2 of 44
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,498unconfirmed, member
    pslice said:
    Surprised this court wasn't in Eastern Texas. I don't know whether the allegations are true or not, but this stuff drives the cost of equipment to go up. Why doesn't Apple use technology they create or work with other companies to use? It's called a contract. $439Million is a lot of money.

    You don't think Apple created FaceTime?
    jbdragonnetmageStrangeDaysGeorgeCostanza
  • Reply 3 of 44
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 21,095member
    pslice said:
    Surprised this court wasn't in Eastern Texas. I don't know whether the allegations are true or not, but this stuff drives the cost of equipment to go up. Why doesn't Apple use technology they create or work with other companies to use? It's called a contract. $439Million is a lot of money.

    You don't think Apple created FaceTime?
    ...in a technological vacuum? Every product I can think of today was built on the advancements from others before them. 

    Google, Apple, Microsoft all operate much the same and don't respond to every claim of infringement. It's generally cheaper to ignore most of them, especially the little guys, try to get the patents of those want to pursue it anyway invalidated, and otherwise outlast/out-lawyer "inventors" who take it all the way to a trial court.

    Licensing and royalties can get expensive and if outside companies and their attorneys thought any of the big techs would roll over and negotiate at the mere threat of a claim it would encourage more of them to bring'em. 
    ...So they ignore anything that doesn't get filed in court.

    Sure there's those "VirnetX's" out there who have really good attorneys and relatively deep pockets who don't go away easily, but for every company like that there's probably a thousand little guys and bit players all hoping to monetize some obscure invention but who end up going away, saving a company like Apple a lot more than they lose from the occasional claimant who wins in court. 

    That's big business, manage the risk. 


    edited July 9 flyingdpFileMakerFellerCarnage
  • Reply 4 of 44
    Apple is a global thief, Wait until they get hit with an additional $600 Million for Virnetx.
    AppleExposed
  • Reply 5 of 44
    Jobs originally wanted FaceTime to be an open standard.  I wonder if VirnetX was the roadblock preventing that.  I also wonder at what point do litigation fees cost more than the verdict award.  Apple seems to be copying Samsung's strategy of appeal... and if that doesn't work, appeal again.
    lostkiwi
  • Reply 6 of 44
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 21,095member
    Jobs originally wanted FaceTime to be an open standard.  I wonder if VirnetX was the roadblock preventing that.  I also wonder at what point do litigation fees cost more than the verdict award.  Apple seems to be copying Samsung's strategy of appeal... and if that doesn't work, appeal again.
    Outspend and outlast if ignore doesn't work ;)
    dysamoriaCarnage
  • Reply 7 of 44
    Steve Jobs said "Picasso had a saying: good artists copy, great artists steal. And we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas..."

    Yes, Apple was the first to incorporate FaceTime into it's platform. However, they wilfully use VirnetX patented security software to secure it, and also to secure iMessage and VPNoD.

    The CAFC vacated these PTAB judgments because Apple uses its influence in that arena to destroy patent holders who find it difficult financially to overcome the most richest company in the world with all its legal resources. But the time has now come for Apple to pay up: ~400 million as soon as the CAFC denies Apple's en banc request for re-hearing. And soon after that I expect Apple to pay VirnetX a subsequent ~600 million for patent infringement on current Apple products, and pay a $1.20 royalty going forward on all Apple internet connected products.

    I have been an Apple user since 1986 - that's 33 years. But at some point I knew Steve Jobs mantra was bound to meet its destiny. And that destiny is VirnetX.

    sambatyonyuck9Carnage
  • Reply 8 of 44
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,498unconfirmed, member
    iUser1986 said:
    Steve Jobs said "Picasso had a saying: good artists copy, great artists steal. And we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas..."

    Yes, Apple was the first to incorporate FaceTime into it's platform. However, they wilfully use VirnetX patented security software to secure it, and also to secure iMessage and VPNoD.

    The CAFC vacated these PTAB judgments because Apple uses its influence in that arena to destroy patent holders who find it difficult financially to overcome the most richest company in the world with all its legal resources. But the time has now come for Apple to pay up: ~400 million as soon as the CAFC denies Apple's en banc request for re-hearing. And soon after that I expect Apple to pay VirnetX a subsequent ~600 million for patent infringement on current Apple products, and pay a $1.20 royalty going forward on all Apple internet connected products.

    I have been an Apple user since 1986 - that's 33 years. But at some point I knew Steve Jobs mantra was bound to meet its destiny. And that destiny is VirnetX.


    Besides the fact you have no idea what you're talking about, you use the same hyperbole as the anti-Apple media.

    A funny read.
    virtualshiftjbdragonnetmageStrangeDaysEsquireCatslostkiwijony0
  • Reply 9 of 44
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,498unconfirmed, member
    sambatyon said:
    Apple is a global thief, Wait until they get hit with an additional $600 Million for Virnetx.

    Apple created Facetime. Virnetx is nothing more than a patent troll.

    I also bet you use knockoff iPhones while calling Apple a "thief".

    jbdragonnetmageStrangeDayslostkiwiGeorgeCostanzawatto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 10 of 44
    vr0513vr0513 Posts: 3member
    sambatyon said:
    Apple is a global thief, Wait until they get hit with an additional $600 Million for Virnetx.

    Apple created Facetime. Virnetx is nothing more than a patent troll.

    I also bet you use knockoff iPhones while calling Apple a "thief".

    Apple did create Facetime. But VirnetX patented the technology that makes it possible.

    At that's what the courts have been believing. I find it hard to believe, even in Eastern Texas courts, that at least 3 juries have found in favor of VirnetX if they didn't actually develop the technology Apple is using.
    sambatyonFileMakerFellerAppleExposedbeowulfschmidtwatto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 44
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,004member
    Sorry, but you know something is wrong with a system when someone can spend a couple of hours writing an intentionally broadly worded technology idea down on a piece of paper, send it to the patent office, and then later have that patent bought by a company which has deep pockets to go after companies which, you know, actually create products, and have that company get almost half a billion dollars for it.  A few hours spent and someone gets half a billion dollars.  What behaviour are we incentivizing here?  Why actually do hard work and create things when you can get paid for doing next to nothing?
    netmageStrangeDayslostkiwiGeorgeCostanzawatto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 44
    williamhwilliamh Posts: 671member
    iUser1986 said:
    Steve Jobs said "Picasso had a saying: good artists copy, great artists steal. And we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas..."
    And anyone with the least knowledge of patents knows that you can't patent an idea. You patent an invention. There is a difference.
    netmageStrangeDaysAppleExposedlostkiwiwatto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 44
    vr0513vr0513 Posts: 3member
    auxio said:
    Sorry, but you know something is wrong with a system when someone can spend a couple of hours writing an intentionally broadly worded technology idea down on a piece of paper, send it to the patent office, and then later have that patent bought by a company which has deep pockets to go after companies which, you know, actually create products, and have that company get almost half a billion dollars for it.  A few hours spent and someone gets half a billion dollars.  What behaviour are we incentivizing here?  Why actually do hard work and create things when you can get paid for doing next to nothing?
    VirnetX is a spinoff of the former federal contractor Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC), a company which developed security technology for Homeland Security and other federal agencies. All of the patents held by VirnetX were co-invented by VirtnetX's Founder and CTO, Dr. Robert Short. So to say that VirnetX is a patent troll and just bought this patent to go after Apple is just straight WRONG. Please do some research before you accuse!
    gatorguysambatyoniUser1986yuck9beowulfschmidt
  • Reply 14 of 44
    auxio said:
    Sorry, but you know something is wrong with a system when someone can spend a couple of hours writing an intentionally broadly worded technology idea down on a piece of paper, send it to the patent office, and then later have that patent bought by a company which has deep pockets to go after companies which, you know, actually create products, and have that company get almost half a billion dollars for it.  A few hours spent and someone gets half a billion dollars.  What behaviour are we incentivizing here?  Why actually do hard work and create things when you can get paid for doing next to nothing?
    You know what's wrong?  Every single word you wrote.  Nothing in your quote describes Virnetx.  If you're going to complain, at least understand what you're complaining about.  This patent issue has been around long enough for people to at least be familiar with the parties involved.  
    sambatyoniUser1986
  • Reply 15 of 44
    Tommyboy711Tommyboy711 Posts: 2unconfirmed, member
    VirnetX is NOT a patent troll!! Their inventors are active scientist within the company. Apple chooses to use patents that they do not pay for. Apple nets $500 per phone but pays less than $10 for only 5% of the patents they steal. Jobs was proud of being a Pirate. Basically “live by the sword and eventually die by the sword”, IMO. Apple is ruthless in the Courts bringing 35 lawyers to court the first day vs VirnetX’s 3 lawyers. They have been caught lying in court SEVERAL times and this has changed my opinion of Apple Inc. as a distinguished company.  Four separate juries have found Apple to be stealing VirnetX patents just as they have stolen Qualcomm patents. Where is their decency? Companies with integrity are coming back - Microsoft and IBM - Apple better start paying for the patents they are using. I have eight IPhones on my cellular plan but corporate decency must be the standard or customer loyalty will eventually suffer.
    sambatyonjimgrupeiUser1986Carnage
  • Reply 16 of 44
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,004member
    auxio said:
    Sorry, but you know something is wrong with a system when someone can spend a couple of hours writing an intentionally broadly worded technology idea down on a piece of paper, send it to the patent office, and then later have that patent bought by a company which has deep pockets to go after companies which, you know, actually create products, and have that company get almost half a billion dollars for it.  A few hours spent and someone gets half a billion dollars.  What behaviour are we incentivizing here?  Why actually do hard work and create things when you can get paid for doing next to nothing?
    You know what's wrong?  Every single word you wrote.  Nothing in your quote describes Virnetx.  If you're going to complain, at least understand what you're complaining about.  This patent issue has been around long enough for people to at least be familiar with the parties involved.  
    The only thing which is wrong is that they didn't purchase the patents but instead founded a spinoff company to pursue them.  As someone who has spent countless hours creating technology for real products, I find it extremely offensive that if I accidentally created a product which contained something which someone spent a couple of hours/days writing on a piece of paper, my company could be sued for a huge portion of it's revenue and likely taken out.  What's important to the world?  Pieces of paper or products which actually benefit humanity?
    netmageStrangeDaysAppleExposedGeorgeCostanzawatto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 44
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,004member
    VirnetX is NOT a patent troll!!
    And yet their entire business model is based on patent litigation.  They've even sued your beloved Microsoft.
    netmageStrangeDaysAppleExposedGeorgeCostanzawatto_cobra
  • Reply 18 of 44
    jimgrupejimgrupe Posts: 3member
    It's ALMOST amusing to hear people call VirnetX a "patent troll".   Do they know ANYTHING about the history of this case??   As a former Chief Engineer for SAIC, let me inform them....   

    SAIC developed the security technology under a contract from DHS.  DHS wanted commercial development of the technology because that would drive the cost of secure products down, and was in the best interests of the US Government.   So they gave patent rights to SAIC.   

    But SAIC went through some upheavals of its own, splitting the company into LEIDOS and SAIC, and many executives left because the company seemed to be tearing itself apart.   Some of those left were the ones in charge of the DHS security project and formed VirnetX, and SAIC let them take the patent rights with them.

    So Apple executives decide they can take advantage of this turmoil and use the patented technology without paying any licensing fees. Their own engineers cautioned Apple that they were violating patents (there is written proof), but the Apple execs didn't care.  When first challenged, Apple claimed they had invented their own technology and removed the offending code.   But it was subsequently proven that Apple had done no such thing - they had tried and failed, and then put patent-offending code back in the product. They lied to the court.

    Apple has tried every legal maneuver they can think of, and some that I'm sure must be illegal, to prevent VirnetX from prevailing in this patent case.   From what I can tell, they had puppet companies try to manipulate VHC stock.   And they had others file suits to invalidate the patents after they were told to cease and desist.   Apple's actions have been willfully deceitful (as found by multiple juries) and not worthy of a company sitting on $50 billion in profits that THEY did not fully earn.

    "Patent troll" indeed.   What does one call a large company that uses its economic might to deny payment to smaller companies whose inventions they steal???  
    Tommyboy711gatorguyFileMakerFelleriUser1986yuck9habi000cincytee
  • Reply 19 of 44
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,004member
    Ah well, good for the US economy with all the VirnetX supporters here.  Bog yourselves down in lawsuits and stop creating anything of value.  Maybe building walls and starting trade wars will bring jobs back.
    lostkiwiGeorgeCostanzawatto_cobra
  • Reply 20 of 44
    sambatyon said:
    Apple is a global thief, Wait until they get hit with an additional $600 Million for Virnetx.

    Apple created Facetime. Virnetx is nothing more than a patent troll.

    I also bet you use knockoff iPhones while calling Apple a "thief".

    You may use swamp language that Virnetx is a troll but the fact remains that Apple is "einen veltlichen rauber"  and they will pay through their nose for their misdeeds.
    Tommyboy711iUser1986
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