am I seriously the only one here without issue with the keyboard? I enjoy the butterfly keyboard. my wife has the MacBook with the butterfly keyboard too and thinks that she types faster on it. I like the less travel and the evenness of the keystrokes. I have never had any issue and I use mine every day. To be fair, I also have a no food/drink near the computer policy that is strictly enforced.
No you’re not. I haven’t had any problems on the two machines I use regularly.
One possibility is that you and I can touch type, which means we’re not bothered by the lack of travel. I seem to get a better typing speed out of this than any other keyboard I’ve ever used.
Food and drink might be a factor. Again, I don’t tend to eat or drink anywhere near the laptop.
I recently upgraded from a 2012 15” MacBook Pro Retina to a 2019 15” octo-core MBP. The new keyboard felt fine to me, but, then I’m not a typist and generally use an external wired Apple Extended keyboard. Gots to have a numeric keypad. My wife has a 2018 15” MBP and likes the butterfly keyboard. I’m not a fan of the giant trackpad, but I don’t use that very often, either. I figure my time usage of the built-in keyboard and trackpad is probably below 1%.
Are these the same keyboards that are on the Pros? Those keyboard are the freakin' worse I've ever used in my life, apart from the Timex Sinclair 1000. The Sinclair 1500 is actually better. You'd think Apple would be better than a Timex from the 80s.
In late 2016 I decided not to touch anything with a butterfly keyboard (among other things) and I am still using older generation MBPs and an Air.
You are full of shit as usual.
You've waxed poetic about Huawei devices including laptops, phones, and even recently tablets, and foldable, not to mention all of Huawei's non consumer technology, and given that you have stated explicitly that you loathe iOS, you are in fact a poseur here at AI, not a potential buyer of any Apple products.
Why are you so unnecessarily aggressive towards him? If you have read his comments over the years, he has been a Mac OS user always. So what "evidence' do you have that he was/is NOT interested in a Mac OS laptop? Is there any rule that the posters in this forum HAVE to like ALL of the Apple's products as a pre-requisite for posting?????
In late 2016 I decided not to touch anything with a butterfly keyboard (among other things) and I am still using older generation MBPs and an Air.
You are full of shit as usual.
You've waxed poetic about Huawei devices including laptops, phones, and even recently tablets, and foldable, not to mention all of Huawei's non consumer technology, and given that you have stated explicitly that you loathe iOS, you are in fact a poseur here at AI, not a potential buyer of any Apple products.
What do iOS or Huawei have to do with this?
For what it is worth I have never said I loathed iOS. In fact, I have gone on record as saying I prefer iOS on tablets.
I don't like iOS on phones.
I was very much in the market for an MBP right up to the announcement.of the new design. I refuse to touch them.
If this happens, it’s really an admission that the butterfly mechanism is inherently flawed.
How so? I certainly don't prefer the feel and Apple surely doesn't like stigma associated with it, but neither of those are definitions for "inherently flawed."
They’ve been so insistent that it’s great and “magical” etc, to abandon it now can only be an admission that it’s flawed, be that flaw mechanical or the perception from users that it’s not as good, or the noise/feel thing people seem to complain about. Otherwise why change it?
I have a 2019 iMac and I love the keyboard on that. Its shorter travel than the 2015 Macbooks, though it’s apparently not butterfly. Maybe that’s what the 16 inch MacBook is going to have.
Is LCD flawed because they moved to OLED on their higher end iPhones?
Had they move back to LCD from OLED because of a flaw that couldn’t be resolved then yes.
That is asinine, who makes the decision on what is flawed and what is a normal failure mode? Of all the things that drove me off the MBP series a year and a half ago, the keyboard was the least of my concerns. I certainly couldn’t call it flawed but I can most certainly say I didn’t like it.
The customer does. If Apple goes back to scissors it implies that they’re losing enough on repairs, customer trust, and are not able to resolve the issue. This issue is reminiscent of the Samsung Fold, it was released without enough testing.
If this happens, it’s really an admission that the butterfly mechanism is inherently flawed.
How so? I certainly don't prefer the feel and Apple surely doesn't like stigma associated with it, but neither of those are definitions for "inherently flawed."
They’ve been so insistent that it’s great and “magical” etc, to abandon it now can only be an admission that it’s flawed, be that flaw mechanical or the perception from users that it’s not as good, or the noise/feel thing people seem to complain about. Otherwise why change it?
I have a 2019 iMac and I love the keyboard on that. Its shorter travel than the 2015 Macbooks, though it’s apparently not butterfly. Maybe that’s what the 16 inch MacBook is going to have.
Is LCD flawed because they moved to OLED on their higher end iPhones?
Had they move back to LCD from OLED because of a flaw that couldn’t be resolved then yes.
Some people are so blinded by Applefandom that they can't even see what is in front of them. Did Apple do a recall on LCD screen? No, they did a recall on all of them awful butterfly keyboard. ALL OF THEM.
If this happens, it’s really an admission that the butterfly mechanism is inherently flawed.
How so? I certainly don't prefer the feel and Apple surely doesn't like stigma associated with it, but neither of those are definitions for "inherently flawed."
They’ve been so insistent that it’s great and “magical” etc, to abandon it now can only be an admission that it’s flawed, be that flaw mechanical or the perception from users that it’s not as good, or the noise/feel thing people seem to complain about. Otherwise why change it?
I have a 2019 iMac and I love the keyboard on that. Its shorter travel than the 2015 Macbooks, though it’s apparently not butterfly. Maybe that’s what the 16 inch MacBook is going to have.
Is LCD flawed because they moved to OLED on their higher end iPhones?
Had they move back to LCD from OLED because of a flaw that couldn’t be resolved then yes.
Some people are so blinded by Applefandom that they can't even see what is in front of them. Did Apple do a recall on LCD screen? No, they did a recall on all of them awful butterfly keyboard. ALL OF THEM.
Apple has countless recall programs. To claim that a recall of some keyboards means that the entire design concept of a butterfly switch is "inherently flawed" and "useless" even though this could be due to other factors (like not enough travel or testing keys in a lab with too little clearance despite real world testing requiring more due to crumbs) is as wrong a claim to make as saying that lithium-based batteries are "inherently flawed" and "useless" because Apple does occasional recalls.
If this happens, it’s really an admission that the butterfly mechanism is inherently flawed.
How so? I certainly don't prefer the feel and Apple surely doesn't like stigma associated with it, but neither of those are definitions for "inherently flawed."
They’ve been so insistent that it’s great and “magical” etc, to abandon it now can only be an admission that it’s flawed, be that flaw mechanical or the perception from users that it’s not as good, or the noise/feel thing people seem to complain about. Otherwise why change it?
I have a 2019 iMac and I love the keyboard on that. Its shorter travel than the 2015 Macbooks, though it’s apparently not butterfly. Maybe that’s what the 16 inch MacBook is going to have.
Is LCD flawed because they moved to OLED on their higher end iPhones? Didn't AI state that the failure rate is about the same for the keyboards? Companies change things up without them being "inherently flawed," just like Apple switched from the scissor mechanism to the butterfly mechanism. We get major HW and SW updates from Apple annually, bu that doesn't means that your device is "inherently flawed" or, as many like to complain, "obsolete" when a newer version comes out.
Uuh there's not been a problem with the OLED displays in the iPhones as far as I'm aware? Not sure that's a valid comparison. No, they did not state the failure rate is the same. They in fact said it was twice as often. Also:
For the 2014 MacBook Pro, of the 118 repairs, 8 came back for a second go-around on the repair within 90 days. With the 2015, 6 did. None came back for a third time. For the redesigned 2016 MacBook Pro, of the 165 keyboard repairs, 51 came back again once, and of those 51, 10 more came back for a third time.
You're making false equivalencies. The butterfly mechanism was supposed to be better, which is why it was used. If it's better, why are they reverting to the scissor mechanism that they made a big fuss about being inferior? Most major HW and SW updates don't go and remove the sticker features from the last iteration. Hardware wise, only force touch comes to mind with no real direct replacement. The equivalent in software would be like Apple releasing Catalina with some major feature like Handoff introduced in Mojave removed because they could never make it work properly.
Did you state years ago that it's removal is "an admission that the scissor mechanism is inherently flawed."
What?
Often companies will change things once there's an overwhelming negative stigma that affects sales, regardless of anything else. We've seen product names and even company names change to get away from it. They may have decided that there is a stigma and that the scissor mechanism is better or that their new scissor mechanism is better, but that doesn't mean that keyboard I"m typing on right now is "inherently flawed" or, as another comment I saw on AI recently, "totally useless."
Yes, and I said that in my reply to you; "be that flaw mechanical or the perception from users that it’s not as good." The third generation seems to be a fair bit better, but there is now a perception that the butterfly mechanism is bad. However, unlike other companies, it's extremely rare for Apple to revert "courageous" changes to their products due to customer pressure, so maybe there's more at play here. I.e. there is a real issue that they're unable to fix well enough to get a failure rate to match the scissor mechanism. If the failure rate is significantly higher than the scissor mechanism after 3 rounds of design changes, it is an inherently flawed design. But honestly, a keyboard that doesn't register some keystrokes and repeats others is totally useless.
If this happens, it’s really an admission that the butterfly mechanism is inherently flawed.
That’s a ridiculous statement, Apple has already confirmed the butterfly keyboard suffers from a number of issues, including:
Letters or characters repeat unexpectedly
Letters or characters do not appear
Key(s) feel "sticky" or do not respond in a consistent manner
There seem to be fewer problems with the 2019 revision, according to AI. They’ll either keep the butterfly, switch back to scissor or maybe develop a new type. Who knows?
Oh so it's ridiculous to say it's flawed because Apple has already admitted that it suffers from flaws?
If this happens, it’s really an admission that the butterfly mechanism is inherently flawed.
How so? I certainly don't prefer the feel and Apple surely doesn't like stigma associated with it, but neither of those are definitions for "inherently flawed."
They’ve been so insistent that it’s great and “magical” etc, to abandon it now can only be an admission that it’s flawed, be that flaw mechanical or the perception from users that it’s not as good, or the noise/feel thing people seem to complain about. Otherwise why change it?
I have a 2019 iMac and I love the keyboard on that. Its shorter travel than the 2015 Macbooks, though it’s apparently not butterfly. Maybe that’s what the 16 inch MacBook is going to have.
Is LCD flawed because they moved to OLED on their higher end iPhones?
Had they move back to LCD from OLED because of a flaw that couldn’t be resolved then yes.
According to Apple and AI data, the incident rates are the same as prior models. Thus, not a flaw. The media and it’s narratives don’t actually determine what a tech flaw is. The data do.
If this happens, it’s really an admission that the butterfly mechanism is inherently flawed.
Flawed is a poor choice of words. There are all sorts of keyboard mechanisms available each with their good and bad points.
In more general terms Apples laptops have not been meeting the expectations of many users like me. That doesn’t make them flawed but rather poorly engineered. Sadly the days Apple well bling and not the tools many of us need and want.
I don't think so, if three rounds of fixes haven't completely solved the problems then the design is flawed. You could have a car with square wheels, and all the trim would keep falling off. So to fix it you over inflate the tyres. That helps, but doesn't fix the issue because some trim still keeps falling off. So you make the suspension really soft and over inflate the tyres which helps a bit more, but doesn't fix the core issue which is the wheels are square. That's an inherent design flaw. If the travel on the keys is so short requiring the tolerance for the switches to make electrical contact also so minuscule that dust causes issues, it's a flawed design.
Another concern I have is the number of cycles that the plastic hinge can handle. The hinge is key (ahem) to producing the resistance of the key - not the stainless dome switch itself, and it squeezes as well as bends each time a key is pressed. It's not far, but it's still a concern. I'm not a materials scientist, but I have enough mechanical engineering experience to know plastic hinges never last forever.
Oh and one last thing is the ridiculousness of having to replace the entire top case and battery for a single key failure. That's utterly mad. Fair enough replacing the entire keyboard upon a key failure, but the top case and battery? What were they thinking..!?
If this happens, it’s really an admission that the butterfly mechanism is inherently flawed.
How so? I certainly don't prefer the feel and Apple surely doesn't like stigma associated with it, but neither of those are definitions for "inherently flawed."
They’ve been so insistent that it’s great and “magical” etc, to abandon it now can only be an admission that it’s flawed, be that flaw mechanical or the perception from users that it’s not as good, or the noise/feel thing people seem to complain about. Otherwise why change it?
I have a 2019 iMac and I love the keyboard on that. Its shorter travel than the 2015 Macbooks, though it’s apparently not butterfly. Maybe that’s what the 16 inch MacBook is going to have.
Is LCD flawed because they moved to OLED on their higher end iPhones?
Had they move back to LCD from OLED because of a flaw that couldn’t be resolved then yes.
According to Apple and AI data, the incident rates are the same as prior models. Thus, not a flaw. The media and it’s narratives don’t actually determine what a tech flaw is. The data do.
If this happens, it’s really an admission that the butterfly mechanism is inherently flawed.
How so? I certainly don't prefer the feel and Apple surely doesn't like stigma associated with it, but neither of those are definitions for "inherently flawed."
They’ve been so insistent that it’s great and “magical” etc, to abandon it now can only be an admission that it’s flawed, be that flaw mechanical or the perception from users that it’s not as good, or the noise/feel thing people seem to complain about. Otherwise why change it?
I have a 2019 iMac and I love the keyboard on that. Its shorter travel than the 2015 Macbooks, though it’s apparently not butterfly. Maybe that’s what the 16 inch MacBook is going to have.
Is LCD flawed because they moved to OLED on their higher end iPhones? Didn't AI state that the failure rate is about the same for the keyboards? Companies change things up without them being "inherently flawed," just like Apple switched from the scissor mechanism to the butterfly mechanism. We get major HW and SW updates from Apple annually, bu that doesn't means that your device is "inherently flawed" or, as many like to complain, "obsolete" when a newer version comes out.
Uuh there's not been a problem with the OLED displays in the iPhones as far as I'm aware? Not sure that's a valid comparison. No, they did not state the failure rate is the same. They in fact said it was twice as often.
Your figure was from an earlier story. A later story said the new rates are the same. From newer AI coverage:
We've been tracking the keyboard failure rates since 2016, and gone back to get the same data ranging all the way back to the 2012 MacBook Pro with Retina Display. Overall, the total number of service calls is lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro in their first years of service, versus the older models, even including the keyboard failures —and not including Retina display coating de-lamination. [...]
Since the 2017 MacBook Pro launched with a revised butterfly design, repair service data is very clear that the keyboards it used were better from a reliability standpoint. Failure rates on 2018 MacBook keyboards have also been lower than on the initial crop from 2016, but about the same as they were with 2017 MacBooks.
The 2018 model has a smaller data set, but the failure rate on the keyboards is lower than the 2016, and about the same as it was on the 2017, even with the membrane in question added for a more silent typing experience. This emphasizes Apple's previous statement on the matter, that the membrane was more for a quieter typing experience than anything else.
Since the MacBook Pro 2017 launched, the repair service data is very clear that the keyboards were different from a reliability standpoint, beyond any membrane on the later 2018. They certainly are on the outside, from a marking perspective, with the symbols on the control and option keys differing from previous.
If this happens, it’s really an admission that the butterfly mechanism is inherently flawed.
How so? I certainly don't prefer the feel and Apple surely doesn't like stigma associated with it, but neither of those are definitions for "inherently flawed."
They’ve been so insistent that it’s great and “magical” etc, to abandon it now can only be an admission that it’s flawed, be that flaw mechanical or the perception from users that it’s not as good, or the noise/feel thing people seem to complain about. Otherwise why change it?
I have a 2019 iMac and I love the keyboard on that. Its shorter travel than the 2015 Macbooks, though it’s apparently not butterfly. Maybe that’s what the 16 inch MacBook is going to have.
Is LCD flawed because they moved to OLED on their higher end iPhones?
Had they move back to LCD from OLED because of a flaw that couldn’t be resolved then yes.
Some people are so blinded by Applefandom that they can't even see what is in front of them. Did Apple do a recall on LCD screen? No, they did a recall on all of them awful butterfly keyboard. ALL OF THEM.
I'm not aware of a recall on the butterfly keyboards. There is a service program, but that is not a recall.
I finally decided to buy a new 13” MacBook Pro recently and I have been very concerned about the keyboard due to all of the negative media. However, I have been pleasantly surprised to find that I like the keyboard a lot. I am a writer who has been a touch-typist for nearly 40 years and am very picky about my keyboards. I can’t make any claims as to the durability, given that I have only had the laptop a few weeks, but I am not too concerned as my daughter’s 2017 MacBook has a similar keyboard and she has had no problems despite heavy use at college for several years.
It was enough of a warning sign to me when people I trusted had four replacements over time. Something like 50% of staff computers at 37signals had issues, IIRC. There's no way I trust this keyboard. My MBA and the old MacBook keyboards were indestructible. Not as robust to Think-pads in terms of water, etc. But eating over them never concerned with one iota. There were enough people speaking about their issues with these keyboards it put me off buying one of these machines. Four years support isn't good enough. The issue may not affect everyone, but the design is flawed as far as I'm concerned. And then there's some Apple stores refuse to do a third replacement: https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/doch9a/macbook_keyboard_replacement_program_limited_to/
I finally decided to buy a new 13” MacBook Pro recently and I have been very concerned about the keyboard due to all of the negative media. However, I have been pleasantly surprised to find that I like the keyboard a lot. I am a writer who has been a touch-typist for nearly 40 years and am very picky about my keyboards. I can’t make any claims as to the durability, given that I have only had the laptop a few weeks, but I am not too concerned as my daughter’s 2017 MacBook has a similar keyboard and she has had no problems despite heavy use at college for several years.
It was enough of a warning sign to me when people I trusted had four replacements over time. Something like 50% of staff computers at 37signals had issues, IIRC. There's no way I trust this keyboard. My MBA and the old MacBook keyboards were indestructible. Not as robust to Think-pads in terms of water, etc. But eating over them never concerned with one iota. There were enough people speaking about their issues with these keyboards it put me off buying one of these machines. Four years support isn't good enough. The issue may not affect everyone, but the design is flawed as far as I'm concerned. And then there's some Apple stores refuse to do a third replacement: https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/doch9a/macbook_keyboard_replacement_program_limited_to/
Yes, I’m not dismissing your concern or experience at all. In fact it is stories like that that made me hold off buying a new MacBook Pro for at least a year, hoping maybe they would introduce a 13” model with an entirely new keyboard. But 1) I was tired of waiting and it didn’t look like they were going to introduce a new 13” model anytime soon, and 2) my personal anecdotal experience is entirely opposite of yours. As I mentioned my daughter’s MacBook gets very heavy use and has held up just fine. My son also has a 13” MBP for over two years but he is not a heavy keyboard user so I’ve tried to take that into account. But they have also been distributing this model at work for over a year, all heavy keyboard users, and no one has reported a problem with the keyboard. And in fact those users, who are what I would call “typical” users are completely unaware there is any perceived issue with the keyboards as the don’t frequent Mac news sites like I do. I probably know over a dozen people who have been using this keyboard model for some time and NONE of them have ever had a problem. That said, I could start having a problem tomorrow (knocks on wood), but my own anecdotal experience was good enough that I finally said there was no reason for me to hold off buying a new computer over this issue.
If this happens, it’s really an admission that the butterfly mechanism is inherently flawed.
That’s a ridiculous statement, Apple has already confirmed the butterfly keyboard suffers from a number of issues, including:
Letters or characters repeat unexpectedly
Letters or characters do not appear
Key(s) feel "sticky" or do not respond in a consistent manner
There seem to be fewer problems with the 2019 revision, according to AI. They’ll either keep the butterfly, switch back to scissor or maybe develop a new type. Who knows?
Oh so it's ridiculous to say it's flawed because Apple has already admitted that it suffers from flaws?
Not at all. Do you remember what you wrote? If not, you can find it quoted above so you can refresh your recollection.
You seem to think switching back to scissor is Apple “admitting” to problems with the butterfly. Newsflash: they’ve already admitted it and switching back to scissor is completely irrelevant to that admission.
I guess you meant to say they would be “admitting” it for the second time.
Comments
The new keyboard felt fine to me, but, then I’m not a typist and generally use an external wired Apple Extended keyboard. Gots to have a numeric keypad. My wife has a 2018 15” MBP and likes the butterfly keyboard.
I’m not a fan of the giant trackpad, but I don’t use that very often, either.
I figure my time usage of the built-in keyboard and trackpad is probably below 1%.
Why are you so unnecessarily aggressive towards him? If you have read his comments over the years, he has been a Mac OS user always. So what "evidence' do you have that he was/is NOT interested in a Mac OS laptop? Is there any rule that the posters in this forum HAVE to like ALL of the Apple's products as a pre-requisite for posting?????
For what it is worth I have never said I loathed iOS. In fact, I have gone on record as saying I prefer iOS on tablets.
I don't like iOS on phones.
I was very much in the market for an MBP right up to the announcement.of the new design. I refuse to touch them.
You're making false equivalencies. The butterfly mechanism was supposed to be better, which is why it was used. If it's better, why are they reverting to the scissor mechanism that they made a big fuss about being inferior? Most major HW and SW updates don't go and remove the sticker features from the last iteration. Hardware wise, only force touch comes to mind with no real direct replacement. The equivalent in software would be like Apple releasing Catalina with some major feature like Handoff introduced in Mojave removed because they could never make it work properly.
What?
Oh so it's ridiculous to say it's flawed because Apple has already admitted that it suffers from flaws?
I don't think so, if three rounds of fixes haven't completely solved the problems then the design is flawed. You could have a car with square wheels, and all the trim would keep falling off. So to fix it you over inflate the tyres. That helps, but doesn't fix the issue because some trim still keeps falling off. So you make the suspension really soft and over inflate the tyres which helps a bit more, but doesn't fix the core issue which is the wheels are square. That's an inherent design flaw. If the travel on the keys is so short requiring the tolerance for the switches to make electrical contact also so minuscule that dust causes issues, it's a flawed design.
Another concern I have is the number of cycles that the plastic hinge can handle. The hinge is key (ahem) to producing the resistance of the key - not the stainless dome switch itself, and it squeezes as well as bends each time a key is pressed. It's not far, but it's still a concern. I'm not a materials scientist, but I have enough mechanical engineering experience to know plastic hinges never last forever.
Oh and one last thing is the ridiculousness of having to replace the entire top case and battery for a single key failure. That's utterly mad. Fair enough replacing the entire keyboard upon a key failure, but the top case and battery? What were they thinking..!?
We've been tracking the keyboard failure rates since 2016, and gone back to get the same data ranging all the way back to the 2012 MacBook Pro with Retina Display. Overall, the total number of service calls is lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro in their first years of service, versus the older models, even including the keyboard failures —and not including Retina display coating de-lamination. [...]
Since the 2017 MacBook Pro launched with a revised butterfly design, repair service data is very clear that the keyboards it used were better from a reliability standpoint. Failure rates on 2018 MacBook keyboards have also been lower than on the initial crop from 2016, but about the same as they were with 2017 MacBooks.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/05/22/editorial-reporting-about-the-macbook-pro-is-failing-at-a-faster-rate-than-the-butterfly-keyboard
And:
The 2018 model has a smaller data set, but the failure rate on the keyboards is lower than the 2016, and about the same as it was on the 2017, even with the membrane in question added for a more silent typing experience. This emphasizes Apple's previous statement on the matter, that the membrane was more for a quieter typing experience than anything else.
Since the MacBook Pro 2017 launched, the repair service data is very clear that the keyboards were different from a reliability standpoint, beyond any membrane on the later 2018. They certainly are on the outside, from a marking perspective, with the symbols on the control and option keys differing from previous.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/03/27/apples-apology-for-small-amount-of-2018-macbook-pro-keyboard-failures-still-isnt-enough
I'm not aware of a recall on the butterfly keyboards. There is a service program, but that is not a recall.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/05/21/apple-extends-macbook-pro-keyboard-service-program-to-2018-models
It was enough of a warning sign to me when people I trusted had four replacements over time. Something like 50% of staff computers at 37signals had issues, IIRC. There's no way I trust this keyboard. My MBA and the old MacBook keyboards were indestructible. Not as robust to Think-pads in terms of water, etc. But eating over them never concerned with one iota. There were enough people speaking about their issues with these keyboards it put me off buying one of these machines. Four years support isn't good enough. The issue may not affect everyone, but the design is flawed as far as I'm concerned. And then there's some Apple stores refuse to do a third replacement: https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/doch9a/macbook_keyboard_replacement_program_limited_to/
I guess you meant to say they would be “admitting” it for the second time.