Clarity after all the poking the finger at Apple. Cant believe this story has received so much traction considering if you have an issue with your bank you go directly to them and seek a review. Also about time Woz returned back to the pasture he came from.
Well Apple is involved. I guess this guy and his wife never had such disparity between their credit limits until now. Load a bullsh*t if you asked me.
I do not believe for a millisecond that Apple or Goldman Sachs is being intentionally sexist here. I do know that algorithms that are fed with real world data that already has an inherent bias will produce biased results unless the raw results are intentionally post processed to compensate for the bias that’s been baked into the data,
Yeah it sucks that unbiased scientific algorithms that act on historical real world data have to post-compensate for the traditional biases that are baked into the historical data that is feeding the algorithms. But until the data that is feeding the algorithms is no longer tainted by bias the owners of the algorithms will have to resort to using compensation to remove the bias that passes through the algorithms.
In this case, the algorithms are totally free of bias but the biases that are in the data are leaking into the results produced by the algorithms.
Precisely. Neural nets are very good at learning whatever is included in the data (even if not included by design and even if the data is curated to try and prevent such bias). So whatever credit data is being obtained from the client and scraped from the internet or credit rating services, it may well (almost certainly does) contain information sufficient to identify gender, race, marital status, education of the client. Just as a deep learning vision processing system has identifiable edges, shapes, textures, convolutions) at a lower level, it is possible that the Apple/Sachs deep learning system has identifiable (though unintended... not purposeful) categories for gender, race, marital status, and education level (and maybe also conservative, liberal, brexit, or other political leaning).
AI doesn’t exist like it does in the movies. A programmer like me would have to have instructions to parse any of those signals and look for gender/race/etc and then enforce business rules based on the results. Doing so would be illegal. Which is why we don’t do that.
Good material for your next screenplay about run-away AI, but that’s about it.
Never said the business directly uses such categories internal to the neural net. Rather, that such categories might exist would indicate that the neural net finds them useful in its decision making -- no knowledge or willingness on part of the business required. Same as for the vision example. We maybe can inspect the weights and get an idea what the neural did finds useful for its lower level categories, but we don't intervene... the millions of weights are just too complex to determine some simple relation (at least for mere human programmers). So no, I wouldn't expect Apple or Sachs to take advantage of such categories even were they detectable -- both for ethical reasons and because its difficult.
Interesting idea though, that some evil adversary with access to the neural network, could intervene in some fashion.
The fact that the sexist card was played from the jump really tainted the whole story.
Yeah, on the surface two people with the same income should get the same credit limit. If income was the only factor. I have no idea if DHH actual believes that, but my guess is that he'd play that or any card to make some waves and get the limit raised.
Somebody here through criminal activity /fraund as potential factors, which is just as irresponsible an aspersion as sexist behavior. There are a lot of factors taken into consideration for credit limits. Not just whether or not you carry a balance, but things like using the card a lot and paying it off, not using it at all, running the card up to the limit and carrying a balance, or doing so and not carrying a balance. So if and how, and how much the card is used are just a few factors.
If we were privy to the exact details of their credit history, we'd probably find that G-S doesn't have a sexist algorithm but maybe one that could use refining. This guy has got his 15min and I expect this to die quickly.
Time to move on. This problem has peaked. It will go away in a week.
From here on, this is all just free advertising for the AppleCard.
While I agree it's time to move on from the implication Apple is somehow involved it isn't time to move on from nonequal pay and gender credit bias. I hope this does have some effect on the ludicrous situation in the USA. How many civilized first world countries still refuse to codify equal pay in 2019?
Sorry, but WTF does "codify equal pay" mean? That's what communist countries do. (Except for what those in charge, their family, and their pals pay themselves in those countries).
It means, as is the law in the like of the UK since the 1970s a the same job that's offered can not be offered with one salary for a man and a lower one for a woman. That simple.
Time to move on. This problem has peaked. It will go away in a week.
From here on, this is all just free advertising for the AppleCard.
While I agree it's time to move on from the implication Apple is somehow involved it isn't time to move on from nonequal pay and gender credit bias. I hope this does have some effect on the ludicrous situation in the USA. How many civilized first world countries still refuse to codify equal pay in 2019?
Sorry, but WTF does "codify equal pay" mean? That's what communist countries do. (Except for what those in charge, their family, and their pals pay themselves in those countries).
Clearly what he means is within an org equal pay for equal work should be required policy. That isn’t communist. What on earth do you mean? Do you know what communism is?
Thank you for explaining it better, I didn't mean to confuse. It seemed obvious to me.
you mean apple will, right? because apple is the one being sexist here. it is their algorithm that they tailored to be sure to give women a subpar credit limit. all goldman sachs does is issue the card on apple's behalf, apple is the one doing all the work, they are a giant bank.
Are you kidding? You realize if someone defaults on their Apple Card balance, it's Goldman Sachs that eats the loss, not Apple, right? You really believe that Goldman Sachs, or any bank for that matter, would allow someone else to make the lending decision for them? Assessing creditworthiness is THE INDISPENSABLE, MOST IMPORTANT SKILL NEEDED to run a bank. You know, a bank --those companies that turn a profit by extending credit. If you have no ability to evaluate a loan applicant's creditworthiness, you have no business being in the banking business.
you mean apple will, right? because apple is the one being sexist here. it is their algorithm that they tailored to be sure to give women a subpar credit limit. all goldman sachs does is issue the card on apple's behalf, apple is the one doing all the work, they are a giant bank.
If you're being serious with that post, you're an utter and complete moron. I'll never understand people who are so wrong, yet so confident.
I am surprised at what was definitely sarcasm went right over so many people's heads. I thought it was funny to poke fun at that guy's claim by upholding it at the same time with the new revelation. only a truly foolish person could not see the irony oozing out of every singe farcical, indefensible, fallacy ridden sentence. you folks are truly hilarious. I laughed my arse off going through the comments reading how I am a moron because I did not feel the need to state what is clearly an ironic bs take, and then the folks who did understand irony seeing the humour in my statement.
It's so cognitively dissonant I'm surprised Revenent isn't challenging Herr Drumpf for the Republican nomination. It was that stupid a comment.
I suggest that you seek treatment for your medical condition, commonly known as TDS, because your political comment has nothing to do with this topic. And when November 2020 comes, we'll see who the real stupid ones are again.
only a truly foolish person could not see the irony oozing out of every singe farcical, indefensible, fallacy ridden sentence. you folks are truly hilarious.
The problem with this is that there are plenty of users here who do post comments like yours; it was virtually indistinguishable. You need to work on your delivery if you want to differentiate yourself from the actual trolls.
only a truly foolish person could not see the irony oozing out of every singe farcical, indefensible, fallacy ridden sentence. you folks are truly hilarious.
The problem with this is that there are plenty of users here who do post comments like yours; it was virtually indistinguishable. You need to work on your delivery if you want to differentiate yourself from the actual trolls.
I have never heard anyone speak or write this way. they typically dissent from the first position and try their hand at a subtly or not so subtly different one claiming the first position does not matter. Perhaps we need to start being more discerning readers; irony is irony, regardless of the fact that the author has told us or not. just as a lie is a lie whether we were told it was or was not a lie. Was Johnathan Swift stupid for not stating from the onset that A Modest Proposal was a satire? It would have ruined the book. It was the foolish who took it seriously. (Originally I did write *idiots* at the end but deleted it because it ruined the irony)
With their (easily verifiable by regulators) statement they do not have access to gender or marital status at the time of processing an AppleCard application how is it speculated to be a gender bias issue?
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Interesting idea though, that some evil adversary with access to the neural network, could intervene in some fashion.
Yeah, on the surface two people with the same income should get the same credit limit. If income was the only factor. I have no idea if DHH actual believes that, but my guess is that he'd play that or any card to make some waves and get the limit raised.
Somebody here through criminal activity /fraund as potential factors, which is just as irresponsible an aspersion as sexist behavior. There are a lot of factors taken into consideration for credit limits. Not just whether or not you carry a balance, but things like using the card a lot and paying it off, not using it at all, running the card up to the limit and carrying a balance, or doing so and not carrying a balance. So if and how, and how much the card is used are just a few factors.
If we were privy to the exact details of their credit history, we'd probably find that G-S doesn't have a sexist algorithm but maybe one that could use refining. This guy has got his 15min and I expect this to die quickly.
Thank you for explaining it better, I didn't mean to confuse. It seemed obvious to me.
thank you for the laughs. you guys made my day.
hahahahaha!!! this was my favourite.