Goldman Sachs will reevaluate Apple Card credit line limits after claims of gender bias

Posted:
in General Discussion edited December 2019
Responding to claims that a gender bias is instituted when processing Apple Card applications, Apple banking partner Goldman Sachs on Monday said it is prepared to reevaluate credit lines for customers who expected higher limits.

Apple Card


Goldman Sachs Bank CEO Carey Halio in a statement posted to Twitter reiterated the Apple Card application process, which is performed in partnership with a third party, does not factor gender or other introduced biases into a final determination.

"We have not and never will make decisions based on factors like gender," Halio said in statement reproduced on Goldman's @gsbanksupport account. "In fact, we do not know your gender or marital status during the Apple Card application process."

That said, the company is aware of customer discontent after claims of algorithmically institutionalized sexism surfaced over the weekend. Halio in the tweet instructs Apple Card holders to reach out if they received credit lines below expectations.

"If you believe that your credit line does not adequately reflect your credit history because you may be in a similar situation, we want to hear from you," Halio said. "Based on additional information that we request, we will re-evaluate your credit line."

An image of the statement was appended by text reading "We hear you #AppleCard." CNBC reported on the tweet earlier today.

On Saturday, developer and tech industry insider David Heinemeier Hansson accused both Apple and Goldman of gender bias after being granted a credit limit some 20 times higher than that of his wife. Hansson and his wife file joint tax returns. Others, including Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak, reported similar outcomes in a lengthy Twitter thread.

Goldman attempted to clarify the situation in a statement on Sunday, explaining that Apple Card credit lines are evaluated independently.

On Saturday, the New York Department of Financial Services announced intent to open an investigation into matter.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 50
    Lara Croft 835Lara Croft 835 Posts: 6unconfirmed, member
    Clarity after all the poking the finger at Apple. Cant believe this story has received so much traction considering if you have an issue with your bank you go directly to them and seek a review. Also about time Woz returned back to the pasture he came from. 
    Above_The_GodsStrangeDayssarthos
  • Reply 2 of 50
    you mean apple will, right? because apple is the one being sexist here. it is their algorithm that they tailored to be sure to give women a subpar credit limit. all goldman sachs does is issue the card on apple's behalf, apple is the one doing all the work, they are a giant bank.
    urahara
  • Reply 3 of 50
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,870member
    “In fact, we do not know your gender or marital status during the Apple Card application process."

    says it all right there. So DHH,  what information did your wife give? 
    cy_starkmansmiffy31uraharaGeorgeBMacbluefire1StrangeDayssarthos
  • Reply 4 of 50
    tundraboytundraboy Posts: 1,770member
    revenant said:
    you mean apple will, right? because apple is the one being sexist here. it is their algorithm that they tailored to be sure to give women a subpar credit limit. all goldman sachs does is issue the card on apple's behalf, apple is the one doing all the work, they are a giant bank.
    Are you kidding?  You realize if someone defaults on their Apple Card balance, it's Goldman Sachs that eats the loss, not Apple, right?  You really believe that Goldman Sachs, or any bank for that matter, would allow someone else to make the lending decision for them?  Assessing creditworthiness is THE INDISPENSABLE, MOST IMPORTANT SKILL NEEDED to run a bank.  You know, a bank --those companies that turn a profit by extending credit.  If you have no ability to evaluate a loan applicant's creditworthiness, you have no business being in the banking business.
    mwhiteflyingdpapplesnorangesapres587Rayz2016muthuk_vanalingamGeorgeBMacsarthos
  • Reply 5 of 50
    dewmedewme Posts: 3,830member
    I do not believe for a millisecond that Apple or Goldman Sachs is being intentionally sexist here. I do know that algorithms that are fed with real world data that already has an inherent bias will produce biased results unless the raw results are intentionally post processed to compensate for the bias that’s been baked into the data,  

    Yeah it sucks that unbiased scientific algorithms that act on historical real world data have to post-compensate for the traditional biases that are baked into the historical data that is feeding the algorithms.  But until the data that is feeding the algorithms is no longer tainted by bias the owners of the algorithms will have to resort to using compensation to remove the bias that passes through the algorithms. 

    In this case, the algorithms are totally free of bias but the biases that are in the data are leaking into the results produced by the algorithms. 
    fractaldreams
  • Reply 6 of 50
    “Gender bias.” LOL.
    mwhiteflyingdp
  • Reply 7 of 50
    revenant said:
    you mean apple will, right? because apple is the one being sexist here. it is their algorithm that they tailored to be sure to give women a subpar credit limit. all goldman sachs does is issue the card on apple's behalf, apple is the one doing all the work, they are a giant bank.
    Wrong. GS is the party issuing and backing the credit. If it was Apple, why would GS even be involved at all?
    mwhiteAbove_The_GodsapplesnorangesStrangeDayssarthos
  • Reply 8 of 50
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    revenant said:
    you mean apple will, right? because apple is the one being sexist here. it is their algorithm that they tailored to be sure to give women a subpar credit limit. all goldman sachs does is issue the card on apple's behalf, apple is the one doing all the work, they are a giant bank.
    Wrong. GS is the party issuing and backing the credit. If it was Apple, why would GS even be involved at all?
    Of course they're wrong. Apple has nothing to do with the process.

    Goldman Sachs is also relying on the information from a third party credit service, so maybe if somebody has an issue, then they should take it up with Transunion, as I believe that's who is being used for Apple Card.

    Maybe something on their credit history is messed up? Maybe somebody was a victim of identity theft in the past? Maybe somebody was delinquent on some payments. Maybe somebody is just a slacker and they have multiple missed payments or other strikes against them.

    I don't trust what any virtue signalers claim. 

  • Reply 9 of 50
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,317member
    revenant said:
    you mean apple will, right? because apple is the one being sexist here. it is their algorithm that they tailored to be sure to give women a subpar credit limit. all goldman sachs does is issue the card on apple's behalf, apple is the one doing all the work, they are a giant bank.

    If you're being serious with that post, you're an utter and complete moron. I'll never understand people who are so wrong, yet so confident. 
    mwhiteflyingdpAbove_The_Godschasmapplesnorangesright_said_fredapres587StrangeDays
  • Reply 10 of 50
    Above_The_GodsAbove_The_Gods Posts: 25unconfirmed, member
    slurpy said:
    revenant said:
    you mean apple will, right? because apple is the one being sexist here. it is their algorithm that they tailored to be sure to give women a subpar credit limit. all goldman sachs does is issue the card on apple's behalf, apple is the one doing all the work, they are a giant bank.

    If you're being serious with that post, you're an utter and complete moron. I'll never understand people who are so wrong, yet so confident. 
    It has to be sarcasm lol.
    revenant
  • Reply 11 of 50
    chasmchasm Posts: 2,395member
    slurpy said:
    If you're being serious with that post, you're an utter and complete moron. I'll never understand people who are so wrong, yet so confident. 
    It's so cognitively dissonant I'm surprised Revenent isn't challenging Herr Drumpf for the Republican nomination. It was that stupid a comment.
    hubbaxStrangeDays
  • Reply 12 of 50
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    chasm said:
    It's so cognitively dissonant I'm surprised Revenent isn't challenging Herr Drumpf for the Republican nomination. It was that stupid a comment.
    I suggest that you seek treatment for your medical condition, commonly known as TDS, because your political comment has nothing to do with this topic. And when November 2020 comes, we'll see who the real stupid ones are again.
    edited November 2019 B-Mc-Centropysrazorpitchemengin1
  • Reply 13 of 50
    JFC_PAJFC_PA Posts: 631member
     we do not know your gender or marital status during the Apple Card application process."”

    and with that, once verified, we’re back to what I initially expected: something financial in the application simply raised a red flag. Criminality? Fraud? Whatever. No two people have precisely the same background. Certainly not married adults. That presumption was flawed from the beginning. 
    StrangeDayssarthos
  • Reply 14 of 50
    JFC_PAJFC_PA Posts: 631member
    apple ][ said:
    revenant said:
    you mean apple will, right? because apple is the one being sexist here. it is their algorithm that they tailored to be sure to give women a subpar credit limit. all goldman sachs does is issue the card on apple's behalf, apple is the one doing all the work, they are a giant bank.
    Wrong. GS is the party issuing and backing the credit. If it was Apple, why would GS even be involved at all?
    Of course they're wrong. Apple has nothing to do with the process.

    Goldman Sachs is also relying on the information from a third party credit service, so maybe if somebody has an issue, then they should take it up with Transunion, as I believe that's who is being used for Apple Card.

    Maybe something on their credit history is messed up? Maybe somebody was a victim of identity theft in the past? Maybe somebody was delinquent on some payments. Maybe somebody is just a slacker and they have multiple missed payments or other strikes against them.

    I don't trust what any virtue signalers claim. 

    And I’ll add any husband that “knows” each and every detail of his spouse’s financial history is a kidding himself fool. 
    StrangeDayssarthos
  • Reply 15 of 50
    Can we close the book on this non-issue now?
    anantksundaram
  • Reply 16 of 50
    tundraboy said:
    revenant said:
    you mean apple will, right? because apple is the one being sexist here. it is their algorithm that they tailored to be sure to give women a subpar credit limit. all goldman sachs does is issue the card on apple's behalf, apple is the one doing all the work, they are a giant bank.
    Are you kidding?  You realize if someone defaults on their Apple Card balance, it's Goldman Sachs that eats the loss, not Apple, right?  You really believe that Goldman Sachs, or any bank for that matter, would allow someone else to make the lending decision for them?  Assessing creditworthiness is THE INDISPENSABLE, MOST IMPORTANT SKILL NEEDED to run a bank.  You know, a bank --those companies that turn a profit by extending credit.  If you have no ability to evaluate a loan applicant's creditworthiness, you have no business being in the banking business.
    Yes, he's kidding. It's called irony and it is officially a form of humour.
    revenant
  • Reply 17 of 50
    aknabiaknabi Posts: 210member
    apple ][ said:
    Algorithmically institutionalized sexism, lol. :#

    Is there a line in the code somewhere which goes - If applicant = female, then only grant 10% of the credit limit that they actually deserve? 

    "In fact, we do not know your gender or marital status during the Apple Card application process."


    I'm sure it's in the source!

    if (applicant.gender == Gender.MALE) {
        approvedCreditLimit = totalCreditLimit;
    } else {
        approvedCreditLimit = totalCreditLimit * 0.1f;


    Note that my brilliant code ensures that only males get the full limit... it's "woke" enough to discriminate against all the other 74 possible genders!

    I'm fairly progressive but this "woke" nonsense of looking for outrage wherever it can be found or manufactured is really driving me to buy a red hat and change my vote in 2020.
  • Reply 18 of 50
    FatmanFatman Posts: 513member
    This topic is a waste of time at this point, someone obviously has an agenda against (or for) GS, Apple or both. It’s either a poor publicity stunt or a poor attempt to move share price(s).  But my comment is more about Woz ... more proof that the guy has truly lost his mind.
    edited November 2019 anantksundaram
  • Reply 19 of 50
    entropysentropys Posts: 3,120member
    steveau said:
    tundraboy said:
    revenant said:
    you mean apple will, right? because apple is the one being sexist here. it is their algorithm that they tailored to be sure to give women a subpar credit limit. all goldman sachs does is issue the card on apple's behalf, apple is the one doing all the work, they are a giant bank.
    Are you kidding?  You realize if someone defaults on their Apple Card balance, it's Goldman Sachs that eats the loss, not Apple, right?  You really believe that Goldman Sachs, or any bank for that matter, would allow someone else to make the lending decision for them?  Assessing creditworthiness is THE INDISPENSABLE, MOST IMPORTANT SKILL NEEDED to run a bank.  You know, a bank --those companies that turn a profit by extending credit.  If you have no ability to evaluate a loan applicant's creditworthiness, you have no business being in the banking business.
    Yes, he's kidding. It's called irony and it is officially a form of humour.
    Actually it’s sarcasm. Irony is a foreign concept beloved by the English and self depreciating Australians.  What is even better is the number of upvotes received by those that piled on oblivious to the sarcasm, and then there was a completely uncalled for Trump link! 
    If it wasn’t sarcasm, it was masterful trollery. 
    revenant
  • Reply 20 of 50
    tundraboy said:
    revenant said:
    you mean apple will, right? because apple is the one being sexist here. it is their algorithm that they tailored to be sure to give women a subpar credit limit. all goldman sachs does is issue the card on apple's behalf, apple is the one doing all the work, they are a giant bank.
    Are you kidding?  You realize if someone defaults on their Apple Card balance, it's Goldman Sachs that eats the loss, not Apple, right?  You really believe that Goldman Sachs, or any bank for that matter, would allow someone else to make the lending decision for them?  Assessing creditworthiness is THE INDISPENSABLE, MOST IMPORTANT SKILL NEEDED to run a bank.  You know, a bank --those companies that turn a profit by extending credit.  If you have no ability to evaluate a loan applicant's creditworthiness, you have no business being in the banking business.
    I read the first comment as sarcasm, isn't it?
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