Apple’s insular design process does them no favors when it comes to things like keyboards and mice (mouses?).
Better to get outside opinions from real-world users than to follow a design decision path to an expensive dead end.
Surprising you've turned 180 degrees, don't let your negative emotions taking over.
Explain?
Over the history of the company, their habit of developing in secret and not testing with outsiders has led to some really bad choices.
You mean a design went on mass production?
What about me? Am I not a customer? If it's really bad as some of your thoughts, then sales will down dramatically. That's not what we've seen -- of course, they're all iSheep without personality.
Also, ranting things in the past on a "new" reliable design makes no sense. The fact they put the Magic Keyboard on the latest machine means that's what pro users wanted. How's that not listening?
I have not seen the problems reported with keyboards but I have avoided Apple keyboards for desktop use for some time now. Apple keyboards are unavoidable on laptops, but completely avoidable on my iPad Pro and desktop Macs.
Tell Phil their is no substitute fro a physical power button or escape key. My only gripe with my iPad Pro is the crappy way they have it shut off.
Wait a sec, why the hell do you need a power button on your desktop keyboard?
And what's the "crappy way they have it shut off" with regard to iPad?
The MAIN thing about the "Keyboard" are two things IMHO:
1. Some people just do a quick finger test and go "ewww!" That's all, a quick stop at the Apple Store and "ewww, awful". They don't/didn't even buy a MBP with the keyboard and acclimate for 6 months.
2. Apple, like I said "I believe", is just preparing us for NO KEYBOARD, just a glass surface, like an iPad screen instead of a keyboard to "type/tap" on. Thin, Thinner, Thinnest, and viola GONE!
So I just have to say get over the whole thing and ADAPT
Laters...
Ew and ew. I prefer a more retro clicky keyboard than a flat one and certainly more than a glass keyboard. I bought a Brydge keyboard for my iPad because typing on glass is such a pain on a large screen. Typing on a phone is easy as it’s a small screen and two thumbs do it. On a large screen it’s awkward. Besides, I learned to touch type and you can’t be fast on glass.
"[The Butterfly keyboard] had some things it did really well," Schiller told CNET, "like creating a much more stable key platform. It felt more flat and firm under your finger - some people really like that, but other people weren't really happy with that."
"We got sort of a mixed reaction," he continued. "We had some quality issues we had to work on. “
That sure seems like corporate-speak for “the reliability sucked and people hated the keyboard!”
It’s actually a pretty surprising statement/admission. It’s rare you even get that much from any company, let alone Apple. Good to know they got the message, though.
Did you even read what you quoted. Many, many people (myself included) really like the stability and travel of the butterfly keyboard and have never had a problem with it. Some people don’t like the feel of it, so Apple decided to address their complaints (without throwing out the baby with the bath water.)
Personally, I find it odd that they shrunk the left and right arrow keys. Who was asking for that (although the AI video calls it out as an improvement)? At least they didn’t copy Dell’s terrible design. The laptop I (have to) use at work has a half-sized page up above the left arrow (and page down above the right arrow). That is a bigger sin than anything Apple did with their keyboards.
Apple got two things wrong with the keyboard:
Not everyone can touch type. Not everyone keeps their work area clean.
Fastest typing experience I’ve ever had, and definitely the most comfortable. Probably due to neutral wrist positioning which is down to Apple’s “obsession with thinness.”
But the most interesting thing here is that they changed the mechanism, but didn’t increase the travel.
"[The Butterfly keyboard] had some things it did really well," Schiller told CNET, "like creating a much more stable key platform. It felt more flat and firm under your finger - some people really like that, but other people weren't really happy with that."
"We got sort of a mixed reaction," he continued. "We had some quality issues we had to work on. “
That sure seems like corporate-speak for “the reliability sucked and people hated the keyboard!”
It’s actually a pretty surprising statement/admission. It’s rare you even get that much from any company, let alone Apple. Good to know they got the message, though.
Did you even read what you quoted. Many, many people (myself included) really like the stability and travel of the butterfly keyboard and have never had a problem with it. Some people don’t like the feel of it, so Apple decided to address their complaints (without throwing out the baby with the bath water.)
Personally, I find it odd that they shrunk the left and right arrow keys. Who was asking for that (although the AI video calls it out as an improvement)? At least they didn’t copy Dell’s terrible design. The laptop I (have to) use at work has a half-sized page up above the left arrow (and page down above the right arrow). That is a bigger sin than anything Apple did with their keyboards.
Apple got two things wrong with the keyboard:
Not everyone can touch type. Not everyone keeps their work area clean.
Fastest typing experience I’ve ever had, and definitely the most comfortable. Probably due to neutral wrist positioning which is down to Apple’s “obsession with thinness.”
But the most interesting thing here is that they changed the mechanism, but didn’t increase the travel.
The training of the user base continues …
Technically it's about 0.2mm. The butterfly IIRC is 0.8mm.
"[The Butterfly keyboard] had some things it did really well," Schiller told CNET, "like creating a much more stable key platform. It felt more flat and firm under your finger - some people really like that, but other people weren't really happy with that."
"We got sort of a mixed reaction," he continued. "We had some quality issues we had to work on. “
That sure seems like corporate-speak for “the reliability sucked and people hated the keyboard!”
It’s actually a pretty surprising statement/admission. It’s rare you even get that much from any company, let alone Apple. Good to know they got the message, though.
Did you even read what you quoted. Many, many people (myself included) really like the stability and travel of the butterfly keyboard and have never had a problem with it. Some people don’t like the feel of it, so Apple decided to address their complaints (without throwing out the baby with the bath water.)
Personally, I find it odd that they shrunk the left and right arrow keys. Who was asking for that (although the AI video calls it out as an improvement)? At least they didn’t copy Dell’s terrible design. The laptop I (have to) use at work has a half-sized page up above the left arrow (and page down above the right arrow). That is a bigger sin than anything Apple did with their keyboards.
Apple got two things wrong with the keyboard:
Not everyone can touch type. Not everyone keeps their work area clean.
Fastest typing experience I’ve ever had, and definitely the most comfortable. Probably due to neutral wrist positioning which is down to Apple’s “obsession with thinness.”
But the most interesting thing here is that they changed the mechanism, but didn’t increase the travel.
The training of the user base continues …
Technically it's about 0.2mm. The butterfly IIRC is 0.8mm.
I think Gruber said the new one is 1mm and the butterfly is .5mm.
I like my 2018, but if this one is quieter and more reliable (I do have the occasional letter doubling, very seldom though), then I"m all for it. Mostly if it shuts everyone up about the keyboards.
Apple’s insular design process does them no favors when it comes to things like keyboards and mice (mouses?).
Better to get outside opinions from real-world users than to follow a design decision path to an expensive dead end.
Surprising you've turned 180 degrees, don't let your negative emotions taking over.
Explain?
Over the history of the company, their habit of developing in secret and not testing with outsiders has led to some really bad choices.
I couldn't agree more. The new 2106+ MBP -- I own the 2018 version -- is one of the worst designed products from Apple. Ever. Especially for what is cost. Don't get me started on why.
For me, it ranks right up there with the AppleTV remote and the hockey-puck mouse. I will get rid of it, take my lumps, and move on to the new MBP. But I am going to wait a month or so and wait to hear what the actual user experience is, i.e., that it's a significant improvement (which shouldn't be too hard). Burnt once, twice shy.
I was rather disappointed with my 2017 MBP and the ratter terrible service at the local Apple store. This caused me to buy a HP to run Linux as my primary system. Sometimes I feel driven to get back into a Mac but I really have that negative feeling that hasn’t washed away yet. Fortunately I’m in no hurry so I can wait for feedback on these machines. It does look like they have taken the new machines design a bit more seriously this time around. For years now they have been phoning in MBP models.
Apple’s insular design process does them no favors when it comes to things like keyboards and mice (mouses?).
Better to get outside opinions from real-world users than to follow a design decision path to an expensive dead end.
Surprising you've turned 180 degrees, don't let your negative emotions taking over.
Explain?
Over the history of the company, their habit of developing in secret and not testing with outsiders has led to some really bad choices.
I couldn't agree more. The new 2106+ MBP -- I own the 2018 version -- is one of the worst designed products from Apple. Ever. Especially for what is cost. Don't get me started on why.
For me, it ranks right up there with the AppleTV remote and the hockey-puck mouse. I will get rid of it, take my lumps, and move on to the new MBP. But I am going to wait a month or so and wait to hear what the actual user experience is, i.e., that it's a significant improvement (which shouldn't be too hard). Burnt once, twice shy.
I was rather disappointed with my 2017 MBP and the ratter terrible service at the local Apple store. This caused me to buy a HP to run Linux as my primary system. Sometimes I feel driven to get back into a Mac but I really have that negative feeling that hasn’t washed away yet. Fortunately I’m in no hurry so I can wait for feedback on these machines. It does look like they have taken the new machines design a bit more seriously this time around. For years now they have been phoning in MBP models.
If he's disappointed about ports or the system won't run at 100%, chances are most likely he won't be satisfied with the 16" either.
"[The Butterfly keyboard] had some things it did really well," Schiller told CNET, "like creating a much more stable key platform. It felt more flat and firm under your finger - some people really like that, but other people weren't really happy with that."
"We got sort of a mixed reaction," he continued. "We had some quality issues we had to work on. “
That sure seems like corporate-speak for “the reliability sucked and people hated the keyboard!”
It’s actually a pretty surprising statement/admission. It’s rare you even get that much from any company, let alone Apple. Good to know they got the message, though.
Did you even read what you quoted. Many, many people (myself included) really like the stability and travel of the butterfly keyboard and have never had a problem with it. Some people don’t like the feel of it, so Apple decided to address their complaints (without throwing out the baby with the bath water.)
Personally, I find it odd that they shrunk the left and right arrow keys. Who was asking for that (although the AI video calls it out as an improvement)? At least they didn’t copy Dell’s terrible design. The laptop I (have to) use at work has a half-sized page up above the left arrow (and page down above the right arrow). That is a bigger sin than anything Apple did with their keyboards.
Apple got two things wrong with the keyboard:
Not everyone can touch type. Not everyone keeps their work area clean.
Fastest typing experience I’ve ever had, and definitely the most comfortable. Probably due to neutral wrist positioning which is down to Apple’s “obsession with thinness.”
But the most interesting thing here is that they changed the mechanism, but didn’t increase the travel.
The training of the user base continues …
Technically it's about 0.2mm. The butterfly IIRC is 0.8mm.
I think Gruber said the new one is 1mm and the butterfly is .5mm.
I like my 2018, but if this one is quieter and more reliable (I do have the occasional letter doubling, very seldom though), then I"m all for it. Mostly if it shuts everyone up about the keyboards.
I kinda guessed it would be Magic Keyboard as the most conservative solution. Just move the Magic Keyboard on the MacBook Pro and there you go. I know one of my "friends" will be happy as he said that keyboard is the best ever.
"[The Butterfly keyboard] had some things it did really well," Schiller told CNET, "like creating a much more stable key platform. It felt more flat and firm under your finger - some people really like that, but other people weren't really happy with that."
"We got sort of a mixed reaction," he continued. "We had some quality issues we had to work on. “
That sure seems like corporate-speak for “the reliability sucked and people hated the keyboard!”
It’s actually a pretty surprising statement/admission. It’s rare you even get that much from any company, let alone Apple. Good to know they got the message, though.
Did you even read what you quoted. Many, many people (myself included) really like the stability and travel of the butterfly keyboard and have never had a problem with it. Some people don’t like the feel of it, so Apple decided to address their complaints (without throwing out the baby with the bath water.)
Personally, I find it odd that they shrunk the left and right arrow keys. Who was asking for that (although the AI video calls it out as an improvement)? At least they didn’t copy Dell’s terrible design. The laptop I (have to) use at work has a half-sized page up above the left arrow (and page down above the right arrow). That is a bigger sin than anything Apple did with their keyboards.
Apple got two things wrong with the keyboard:
Not everyone can touch type. Not everyone keeps their work area clean.
Fastest typing experience I’ve ever had, and definitely the most comfortable. Probably due to neutral wrist positioning which is down to Apple’s “obsession with thinness.”
But the most interesting thing here is that they changed the mechanism, but didn’t increase the travel.
The training of the user base continues …
Technically it's about 0.2mm. The butterfly IIRC is 0.8mm.
I think Gruber said the new one is 1mm and the butterfly is .5mm.
I like my 2018, but if this one is quieter and more reliable (I do have the occasional letter doubling, very seldom though), then I"m all for it. Mostly if it shuts everyone up about the keyboards.
I actually measured the key travel of my 2017 MBP compared with my 2011 MBA and posted it a while back. Of course AI’s search is worthless to find my post now. As I recall the butterfly key travel was significantly less than half of my MBA. I have actually gotten used to that; my complaint is with the reliability (and poor design that prevents easy repairs.) Even being more careful than I have ever been with any keyboard I’ve used in the past, I’ll get debris stuck under a key, making it close to useless. It hasn’t trashed the keyboard yet, but having the primary input device on a $2300 laptop be so flaky really sucks.
"[The Butterfly keyboard] had some things it did really well," Schiller told CNET, "like creating a much more stable key platform. It felt more flat and firm under your finger - some people really like that, but other people weren't really happy with that."
"We got sort of a mixed reaction," he continued. "We had some quality issues we had to work on. “
That sure seems like corporate-speak for “the reliability sucked and people hated the keyboard!”
It’s actually a pretty surprising statement/admission. It’s rare you even get that much from any company, let alone Apple. Good to know they got the message, though.
Did you even read what you quoted. Many, many people (myself included) really like the stability and travel of the butterfly keyboard and have never had a problem with it. Some people don’t like the feel of it, so Apple decided to address their complaints (without throwing out the baby with the bath water.)
Personally, I find it odd that they shrunk the left and right arrow keys. Who was asking for that (although the AI video calls it out as an improvement)? At least they didn’t copy Dell’s terrible design. The laptop I (have to) use at work has a half-sized page up above the left arrow (and page down above the right arrow). That is a bigger sin than anything Apple did with their keyboards.
Apple got two things wrong with the keyboard:
Not everyone can touch type. Not everyone keeps their work area clean.
Fastest typing experience I’ve ever had, and definitely the most comfortable. Probably due to neutral wrist positioning which is down to Apple’s “obsession with thinness.”
But the most interesting thing here is that they changed the mechanism, but didn’t increase the travel.
The training of the user base continues …
Technically it's about 0.2mm. The butterfly IIRC is 0.8mm.
I think Gruber said the new one is 1mm and the butterfly is .5mm.
I like my 2018, but if this one is quieter and more reliable (I do have the occasional letter doubling, very seldom though), then I"m all for it. Mostly if it shuts everyone up about the keyboards.
I actually measured the key travel of my 2017 MBP compared with my 2011 MBA and posted it a while back. Of course AI’s search is worthless to find my post now. As I recall the butterfly key travel was significantly less than half of my MBA. I have actually gotten used to that; my complaint is with the reliability (and poor design that prevents easy repairs.) Even being more careful than I have ever been with any keyboard I’ve used in the past, I’ll get debris stuck under a key, making it close to useless. It hasn’t trashed the keyboard yet, but having the primary input device on a $2300 laptop be so flaky really sucks.
Old MacBook Air only got 1.2mm travel, which makes it 0.6mm.
Actually, go to your local Walmart, try some of their laptops. Their quality isn't even close to a butterfly regardless of the reliability, which 4th-gen solves that in a great way.
They don't/didn't even buy a MBP with the keyboard and acclimate for 6 months.
That's 10blbs of bullshit in a 5lb sack. There's not a damn reason in the world a competent typist should have to buy an MPB and then need six months to acclimate. If it take that long it's a shit keyboard. One month would be too long.
So press, and if it's 'eeewwww!', move on to something better. The 16" MPB's keyboard may be an improvement over the crap they've been pushing over the last three years, incremental 'improvements' included. Or not.
IBM ThinkPads and ThinkBooks have great keyboards. No 'acclimation' needed. Unfortunately they don't run macOS natively. Apple's crappy no-travel switches are a bane to good typing foisted on us because of the need to have 'the thinnest MacBook we've ever made!'.
As long as Apple indulges the penchant for super slim MBPs, the keyboards will be crap. The bar is set to getting the next keyboard to be less crappy than the previous one. That's not a very high bar.
So I plug in an external keyboard I like that doesn't slow me down. But it'll be a very cold day in hell before I buy another MPB, unless there is something very 'magical' about this new MPB's keyboard. I ain't holding my breath.
“We had some quality issues” wtf my €2500+ 2016 MBP has a faulty keyboard and is almost unuseable as keys hang and you cannot type fast and correct. Even worse, Apple does not offer any solution. I got a replacement and twice a repair but this did not solve anything as the keyboard is faulty be design.
Comments
You mean a design went on mass production?
What about me? Am I not a customer? If it's really bad as some of your thoughts, then sales will down dramatically. That's not what we've seen -- of course, they're all iSheep without personality.
Also, ranting things in the past on a "new" reliable design makes no sense. The fact they put the Magic Keyboard on the latest machine means that's what pro users wanted. How's that not listening?
And what's the "crappy way they have it shut off" with regard to iPad?
Literally no idea what you're talking about.
Not everyone can touch type.
Not everyone keeps their work area clean.
But the most interesting thing here is that they changed the mechanism, but didn’t increase the travel.
I like my 2018, but if this one is quieter and more reliable (I do have the occasional letter doubling, very seldom though), then I"m all for it. Mostly if it shuts everyone up about the keyboards.
No laptop these days could run 100%.
I kinda guessed it would be Magic Keyboard as the most conservative solution. Just move the Magic Keyboard on the MacBook Pro and there you go. I know one of my "friends" will be happy as he said that keyboard is the best ever.
Actually, go to your local Walmart, try some of their laptops. Their quality isn't even close to a butterfly regardless of the reliability, which 4th-gen solves that in a great way.
So press, and if it's 'eeewwww!', move on to something better. The 16" MPB's keyboard may be an improvement over the crap they've been pushing over the last three years, incremental 'improvements' included. Or not.
IBM ThinkPads and ThinkBooks have great keyboards. No 'acclimation' needed. Unfortunately they don't run macOS natively. Apple's crappy no-travel switches are a bane to good typing foisted on us because of the need to have 'the thinnest MacBook we've ever made!'.
As long as Apple indulges the penchant for super slim MBPs, the keyboards will be crap. The bar is set to getting the next keyboard to be less crappy than the previous one. That's not a very high bar.
So I plug in an external keyboard I like that doesn't slow me down. But it'll be a very cold day in hell before I buy another MPB, unless there is something very 'magical' about this new MPB's keyboard. I ain't holding my breath.