Teardown of 16-inch MacBook Pro reveals tough-to-repair construction

AppleInsider

The changes Apple made in the 16-inch MacBook Pro are more than just a larger display and an updated keyboard, with a full teardown of the model revealing the plethora of changes made to keep the new workhorse cool under heavy loads.

A disassembled 16-inch MacBook Pro (via iFixit)

The 16-inch MacBook Pro has already been the subject of an initial teardown by repair outfit iFixit, with an examination of the keyboard showing the new scissor-switch mechanism, which is believed to be more resilient than the previous butterfly switch. The firm has since performed a full teardown, showing there are more changes worth highlighting in the new model.

A removal of the lid shows the same thermal management system Apple revealed as part of the MacBook Pro's launch, with large fans on each side towards the rear pushing air throughout the hardware. The mainboard is in fact shaped to go around the fans, holding them in place as well as being the place where the heatsink system resides.

Used to shift heat away from the GPU and processor, Apple revealed the heatsinks are 35% bigger than in previous models, and are attached to bent sections that lead to each of the fans. A copper shield and aluminum thermal pads are also used to cover the GDDR6 chips, used for the GPU's memory.

On the mainboard, the processor and GPU are supplied from Intel and AMD respectively, with the memory in the model coming from Micron while Samsung supplied the GDDR6 chips. Toshiba produced the main flash storage, with Intel also providing the Thunderbolt 3 controller and platform controller hub, and Texas Instruments seemingly behind the power controllers.

Continuing with the cooling, the vents are observed as having slightly larger exhaust holes in the new model, which when combined with the new fans with bigger impeller blades, can shift 28% more air through the device. The result is the ability to sustain an extra 12 watts during intensive workloads.

iFixit does object to the new keyboard's installation as it is riveted to the casing rather than screwed, making it extremely difficult to repair. The firm sees this as a step-back, as while the switches are more resilient, the keyboard "isn't any more repairable than the Butterfly boards."

The new speakers are in an extended enclosure, with the woofers opposed on the top and bottom, a design thought to improve sound quality. The three-mic array is laid out similarly to the array used in the 2018 MacBook Air, but the microphones themselves look "a little beefier," suggesting them to be "higher-quality mics."

The battery is the largest iFixit has seen in a MacBook at 99.8Wh, 11.36V, 8,790mAh. The unit is a 4.8Wh increase over the 17-inch MacBook Pro, and 16.2Wh more than the last 15-inch MacBook Pro, with the extra capacity thought to have been produced by increasing the thickness of each battery cell by 0.8mm.

The iFixit team gave the 16-inch MacBook Pro a "repairability" score of just 1 out of 10. While the trackpad can be removed and replaced "with very little drama" and minor components are modular, the soldering of the processor, RAM, and flash memory to the logic board, the use of glue and rivets on the keyboard, battery, speakers, and Touch Bar makes it hard to repair each of the parts, and the Touch ID sensor's use as a power switch "greatly complicated repairs."

GeorgeBMac

I get it why they designed it this way.   But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain.  I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.

On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines.  So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.

bobolicious

...I remember when SJ came back to Apple and the introduction of the Powerbook G3 with dual externally swappable drive/battery bays and a keyboard that could be simply lifted out from the top with the turn of a slot screw for access to internals. Then came the G4, again with externally swappable battery and easy underside access to all the internals, drive, ram, etc. via a dozen or so screws... I put an SSD in my G4 PB for legacy file access and it works well still to this day, including 'Classic' emulation - both were considered state of the art 'Pro' offerings at the time and priced accordingly, and the latter could be paired with the wonderful 30" Apple Display...

fastasleep

bobolicious said:

...I remember when SJ came back to Apple and the introduction of the Powerbook G3 with dual externally swappable drive/battery bays and a keyboard that could be simply lifted out from the top with the turn of a slot screw for access to internals. Then came the G4, again with externally swappable battery and easy underside access to all the internals, drive, ram, etc. via a dozen or so screws... I put an SSD in my G4 PB for legacy file access and it works well still to this day, including 'Classic' emulation - both were considered state of the art 'Pro' offerings at the time and priced accordingly, and the latter could be paired with the wonderful 30" Apple Display...

The Powerbook G3 was also 7.5 lbs.

StrangeDays

GeorgeBMac said:

I get it why they designed it this way.   But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain.  I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.

On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines.  So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.

Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on. 

It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)

That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers. 

wizard69

The problem with iFixIt is that they too easily dismiss the value of soldered in components which can drastically improve reliability.    

The problem I have with Apple is calling this a pro machine when subsystems that have a predictable failure rate are not field swappable.   Especially in the case of a battery which is certain to fail and they sometimes fail without warning.  You should not need to be a magician to swap out a battery.  Things like the keyboard also fall into this category though you would expect a bit more difficulty.  

So considering the lack of access to these high failure rate items I can’t really see the machines being all that attractive to the greater pro market.  They are still poorly engineered from the perspective of common maintenance.  

softeky

"Step Backwards"? Apple have been using push-plugs rather than screws to fasten the keyboards to the top of the bottom case for years. Usually I pull out the old, faulty keyboard, discard it, and replace it with a new keyboard, attached with tiny screws (80 of them). Pulling the old keyboard out (with most of the plugs) destroys it. New keyboards are roughly $40 (including screws). The scissors keyboard should be more repairable than butterfly version. Key caps are removable on the "scissors" and dirt should be more easily cleaned out (if that is still a problem). I'm more concerned with other issues. How well is the heat removed when the CPU is used intensively. How well will the Mac work in the summer without air conditioning. Does leaving the Mac plugged in to a power-supplying dock or a monitor that provides power reduce the lifetime of the internal battery (I've had 2 batteries become pillows in two years because the connected external monitor provides charging 24/7 through its data connection). Must buy more popcorn!

bobolicious

fastasleep said:

bobolicious said:

...I remember when SJ came back to Apple and the introduction of the Powerbook G3 with dual externally swappable drive/battery bays and a keyboard that could be simply lifted out from the top with the turn of a slot screw for access to internals. Then came the G4, again with externally swappable battery and easy underside access to all the internals, drive, ram, etc. via a dozen or so screws... I put an SSD in my G4 PB for legacy file access and it works well still to this day, including 'Classic' emulation - both were considered state of the art 'Pro' offerings at the time and priced accordingly, and the latter could be paired with the wonderful 30" Apple Display...

The Powerbook G3 was also 7.5 lbs.

Indeed the first 'Wall Street' was a bit of a 'luggable', although as I recall touted as a desktop replacement at the time, with 4MB SGRAM retailing at up to $5,999 US per everymac.com... The later 'bronze' G3 model was 5.9 lbs while maintaining the 2 drive/battery bays and easy internal access, seemingly as a priority by design...

wizard69

StrangeDays said:

GeorgeBMac said:

I get it why they designed it this way.   But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain.  I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.

On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines.  So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.

Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on. 

It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)

That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers. 

I’m not sure where this garbage about consummers never performing repairs on their cars comes from. It simply doesn’t reflect reality, in fact if you have never addressed a problem on your automobile I’d say you are in the minority.    Even Walmart’s dedicate considerable space to high volume maintenance parts.   Within a short distance of my home there are at least 3 parts stores selling largely to the owners of automobiles.    Frankly service items on a laptop, like the battery, should  not be any more difficult to replace than a battery on a car.   That means a few common tools and a standardized component.  

By the way I have to agree that non upgradeable doesn’t mean disposable.   This though drags the discussion off course because being reasonable repairable has nothing to do with being upgradeable.  What makes a MBP disposable is when repairs to common items expected to fail costs more than the value of the machine.  I’d go so far as to say that Apples repair policies are designed to drive purchases of new equipment.    Let’s be honest here, for old Apple hardware you need to go third party for repairs and that only happens if They can get the parts.  Apple basically doesn’t want to know you even if the hardware is otherwise serving a need.  

You seem to not understand brakes.  Have them go bad and you will understand that they are an item that can require repair.  As for PC’s, at work the IT department does a surprising amount of repairs to laptops, desktops and even stuff in the server room.  For a reasonably sized organization it is far more cost effective to repair in house.  So things like batteries, keyboards and so forth get replaced in laptops.   Desktops and embedded PC’s sometimes leave you with little choice but to repair in place.   So hard drives , video cards, power supplies and other items all get handled in house.    There are a number of reasons for this but one simple one is that downtime isn’t acceptable.   Then you have the issue of security and letting strangers into your systems.    Another issue is the fact that a third party would have no idea as to what is going on with the hardware.   The corporate world is funny though because another division or installation might have a totally different policy.   In any event you can’t really say that PC’s aren’t repaired.  They are often repaired in house to some extent or another.    By the way not one Apple product exists in these sorts of installations, Apple simply doesn’t supply the required hardware.  

bobolicious

wizard69 said:

StrangeDays said:

GeorgeBMac said:

I get it why they designed it this way.   But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain.  I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.

On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines.  So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.

Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on. 

It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)

That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers. 

I’m not sure where this garbage about consummers never performing repairs on their cars comes from. It simply doesn’t reflect reality, in fact if you have never addressed a problem on your automobile I’d say you are in the minority.    Even Walmart’s dedicate considerable space to high volume maintenance parts.   Within a short distance of my home there are at least 3 parts stores selling largely to the owners of automobiles.    Frankly service items on a laptop, like the battery, should  not be any more difficult to replace than a battery on a car.   That means a few common tools and a standardized component.  

By the way I have to agree that non upgradeable doesn’t mean disposable.   This though drags the discussion off course because being reasonable repairable has nothing to do with being upgradeable.  What makes a MBP disposable is when repairs to common items expected to fail costs more than the value of the machine.  I’d go so far as to say that Apples repair policies are designed to drive purchases of new equipment.    Let’s be honest here, for old Apple hardware you need to go third party for repairs and that only happens if They can get the parts.  Apple basically doesn’t want to know you even if the hardware is otherwise serving a need.  

You seem to not understand brakes.  Have them go bad and you will understand that they are an item that can require repair.  As for PC’s, at work the IT department does a surprising amount of repairs to laptops, desktops and even stuff in the server room.  For a reasonably sized organization it is far more cost effective to repair in house.  So things like batteries, keyboards and so forth get replaced in laptops.   Desktops and embedded PC’s sometimes leave you with little choice but to repair in place.   So hard drives , video cards, power supplies and other items all get handled in house.    There are a number of reasons for this but one simple one is that downtime isn’t acceptable.   Then you have the issue of security and letting strangers into your systems.    Another issue is the fact that a third party would have no idea as to what is going on with the hardware.   The corporate world is funny though because another division or installation might have a totally different policy.   In any event you can’t really say that PC’s aren’t repaired.  They are often repaired in house to some extent or another.    By the way not one Apple product exists in these sorts of installations, Apple simply doesn’t supply the required hardware.  

...to add and qualify I liken some wear components more like tires, wheels, shocks and springs. Optimized at the design stage, performance may be best with OEM to start. Of course there is wear, and different tires for different driving conditions (think HD/SSD), and In time there may be better performing options or sizes invented and available. Might Apple's approach compare to welded on wheels, shocks and springs ?

MplsP

StrangeDays said:

GeorgeBMac said:

I get it why they designed it this way.   But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain.  I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.

On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines.  So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.

Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on. 

It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)

That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers. 

That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy - if something is made incredibly difficult to repair, you won't repair it.

I have to agree with wizard and bobolicious - components which get a lot of wear and/or are likely to need replacing, should be made so it's at least easier to do so. Take the keyboard - it's a mechanical component that's exposed to the environment and gets a ton of use. Even if the new design is more reliable as hoped it's still going to be one of the higher failure items. Is there any real reason they couldn't have fastened it with screws?

Apple also touts its environmental record, but one of the best ways to reduce environmental costs of products is maximize their life span. A design that prevents repairs goes against that. A modular design would be really nice, but modularity costs space, so that's a compromise that gets made in the name of size, but they've gotten to the point that they might as well just encase the entire thing in epoxy.

StrangeDays

wizard69 said:

StrangeDays said:

GeorgeBMac said:

I get it why they designed it this way.   But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain.  I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.

On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines.  So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.

Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on. 

It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)

That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers. 

I’m not sure where this garbage about consummers never performing repairs on their cars comes from. It simply doesn’t reflect reality, in fact if you have never addressed a problem on your automobile I’d say you are in the minority.    Even Walmart’s dedicate considerable space to high volume maintenance parts.   Within a short distance of my home there are at least 3 parts stores selling largely to the owners of automobiles.    Frankly service items on a laptop, like the battery, should  not be any more difficult to replace than a battery on a car.   That means a few common tools and a standardized component.  

By the way I have to agree that non upgradeable doesn’t mean disposable.   This though drags the discussion off course because being reasonable repairable has nothing to do with being upgradeable.  What makes a MBP disposable is when repairs to common items expected to fail costs more than the value of the machine.  I’d go so far as to say that Apples repair policies are designed to drive purchases of new equipment.    Let’s be honest here, for old Apple hardware you need to go third party for repairs and that only happens if They can get the parts.  Apple basically doesn’t want to know you even if the hardware is otherwise serving a need.  

You seem to not understand brakes.  Have them go bad and you will understand that they are an item that can require repair.  As for PC’s, at work the IT department does a surprising amount of repairs to laptops, desktops and even stuff in the server room.  For a reasonably sized organization it is far more cost effective to repair in house.  So things like batteries, keyboards and so forth get replaced in laptops.   Desktops and embedded PC’s sometimes leave you with little choice but to repair in place.   So hard drives , video cards, power supplies and other items all get handled in house.    There are a number of reasons for this but one simple one is that downtime isn’t acceptable.   Then you have the issue of security and letting strangers into your systems.    Another issue is the fact that a third party would have no idea as to what is going on with the hardware.   The corporate world is funny though because another division or installation might have a totally different policy.   In any event you can’t really say that PC’s aren’t repaired.  They are often repaired in house to some extent or another.    By the way not one Apple product exists in these sorts of installations, Apple simply doesn’t supply the required hardware.  

You’re reading it wrong. I said other than brakes and oil, which are consumables and not really repairs (have done both, thanks), I don’t know anyone who works on their own cars. I didn’t say it can’t be done, but that it’s very, very rare. Most consumers simply don’t have the interest or ability. Thus mechanics. 

I also never said PCs can’t be repaired, but that, again, most consumers don’t have the interest or ability, and this is who Apple builds its products for. Not neckbeards. 

Lastly, I likened repairing cars, televisions, and PCs — because they’re all repairable, but most people don’t do it themselves, which doesn’t make any of them “disposable”. 

StrangeDays

canukstorm said:

StrangeDays said:

GeorgeBMac said:

I get it why they designed it this way.   But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain.  I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.

On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines.  So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.

Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on. 

It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)

That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers. 

You're wasting your talent as a developer.  I'm pretty sure if you go to the Apple jobs site they have positions for Apple Shill.  You'll do great at it.

You certainly aren’t wasting your talent as a whiner, your abilities are world-class. “But but but...Aaaaple!”

Let me know when you can discuss the points rather than fall back on insults. 

hammeroftruth

MplsP said:

StrangeDays said:

GeorgeBMac said:

I get it why they designed it this way.   But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain.  I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.

On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines.  So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.

Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on. 

It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)

That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers. 

That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy - if something is made incredibly difficult to repair, you won't repair it.

I have to agree with wizard and bobolicious - components which get a lot of wear and/or are likely to need replacing, should be made so it's at least easier to do so. Take the keyboard - it's a mechanical component that's exposed to the environment and gets a ton of use. Even if the new design is more reliable as hoped it's still going to be one of the higher failure items. Is there any real reason they couldn't have fastened it with screws?

Apple also touts its environmental record, but one of the best ways to reduce environmental costs of products is maximize their life span. A design that prevents repairs goes against that. A modular design would be really nice, but modularity costs space, so that's a compromise that gets made in the name of size, but they've gotten to the point that they might as well just encase the entire thing in epoxy.

In Apple’s eyes, the glued together parts are modular. 

StrangeDays

MplsP said:

StrangeDays said:

GeorgeBMac said:

I get it why they designed it this way.   But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain.  I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.

On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines.  So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.

Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on. 

It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)

That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers. 

That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy - if something is made incredibly difficult to repair, you won't repair it.

I have to agree with wizard and bobolicious - components which get a lot of wear and/or are likely to need replacing, should be made so it's at least easier to do so. Take the keyboard - it's a mechanical component that's exposed to the environment and gets a ton of use. Even if the new design is more reliable as hoped it's still going to be one of the higher failure items. Is there any real reason they couldn't have fastened it with screws?

Apple also touts its environmental record, but one of the best ways to reduce environmental costs of products is maximize their life span. A design that prevents repairs goes against that. A modular design would be really nice, but modularity costs space, so that's a compromise that gets made in the name of size, but they've gotten to the point that they might as well just encase the entire thing in epoxy.

Concentrate real hard folks....MBPs are serviceable. They don’t need to be upgradable, or user-serviceable, for this to be true. I’ve had mine serviced before...sacre bleu!

Rayz2016

StrangeDays said:

MplsP said:

StrangeDays said:

GeorgeBMac said:

I get it why they designed it this way.   But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain.  I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.

On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines.  So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.

Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on. 

It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)

That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers. 

That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy - if something is made incredibly difficult to repair, you won't repair it.

I have to agree with wizard and bobolicious - components which get a lot of wear and/or are likely to need replacing, should be made so it's at least easier to do so. Take the keyboard - it's a mechanical component that's exposed to the environment and gets a ton of use. Even if the new design is more reliable as hoped it's still going to be one of the higher failure items. Is there any real reason they couldn't have fastened it with screws?

Apple also touts its environmental record, but one of the best ways to reduce environmental costs of products is maximize their life span. A design that prevents repairs goes against that. A modular design would be really nice, but modularity costs space, so that's a compromise that gets made in the name of size, but they've gotten to the point that they might as well just encase the entire thing in epoxy.

Concentrate real hard folks....MBPs are serviceable. They don’t need to be upgradable, or user-serviceable, for this to be true. I’ve had mine serviced before...sacre bleu!

Things I’ve noticed about the cars I’ve bought recently:

There is no room under the bonnet for me to do anything under the bonnet. The only thing I can do is top up the screen wash and check the oil. 

The oil never needs topping up. 

The cars have never gone wrong. They have never failed to start first time no matter what the weather’s doing. 

Cars I’ve owned in the past? I dumped them when I wore them out. 

The last car I ran without a hitch for twelve years, and I only got rid of it because I needed something bigger. 

These days, tech is less serviceable by the end user, but it lasts much longer. 

Is it wasteful? Not if Apple can strip down the whole machine to build a new one. 

Here’s a prediction for next year’s big forum whine. 

It will become widely known that Apple is building brand new machines from recycled components, then the people here complaining that Apple is being wasteful because they can’t replace a battery and dump a potential explosive out in the regular trash, will then start complaining that Apple is not giving them a laptop with shiny fresh components. 

jeff fields

wizard69 said:

The problem with iFixIt is that they too easily dismiss the value of soldered in components which can drastically improve reliability.    

The problem I have with Apple is calling this a pro machine when subsystems that have a predictable failure rate are not field swappable.   Especially in the case of a battery which is certain to fail and they sometimes fail without warning.  You should not need to be a magician to swap out a battery.  Things like the keyboard also fall into this category though you would expect a bit more difficulty.  

So considering the lack of access to these high failure rate items I can’t really see the machines being all that attractive to the greater pro market.  They are still poorly engineered from the perspective of common maintenance.  

Nice 1995 perspective, there. It is *not possible* to make a modern laptop that weighs under 10 pounds that allows for all the stuff you want to be "field swappable". That's why *nobody is doing it*. Nobody. So I don't really know what the heck you could possibly be thinking or talking about when you predict, ludicrously, that these systems will be unattractive to the "greater pro market". There is *no other choice*.

charlesn

wizard69 said:

I can’t really see the machines being all that attractive to the greater pro market.  

I know. Stupid Apple! They keep making pro laptops that pros don't want. But millions and millions of them! Year after year! And here's another one doomed from the start. When will they learn to just let iFixit design their stuff? Thank god Woot can keep running fire sales on all of Apple's pro laptop failures. I've heard rumors that the MacBook Pro department is a ghost town these days and Apple is just gonna lease their space to an Aldi's. 

1983

Not too concerned about non-upgradable CPU, GPU, RAM etc...but things like keyboards and especially batteries should be a lot easier to replace than they are on contemporary Apple laptops. 

GeorgeBMac

StrangeDays said:

GeorgeBMac said:

I get it why they designed it this way.   But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain.  I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.

On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines.  So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.

Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on. 

It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)

That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers. 

Obviously we disagree on that.  (And why did you change what said from non-user upgradeable / repairable to only non-upgreadable?) 

And, I guess you worked for different IT departments than I did.  We didn't throw stuff away for the failure of a minor part.  I know people who do that -- most of them seem to use it as an excuse to buy the latest and greatest.  But most people I know prefer to not throw money away like that.

No, I'll stick to my fully repairable & upgradeable (to an extent) ThinkPads.  The one I'm typing on now is nearly10 years old but sporting Windows 10, 8Gb of RAM, 500Gb SSD, an I7 with a decent GPU and a second harddrive for automatic backup -- Spec wise, it is basically a new machine (Except I need to order a new, $25 battery for it).  There is really nothing I use it for that a new machine would do any better.  Thank god for its repairability and upgradeability.

While a highly portable but non-upgradeable & non-repairable $2K+ machine is appealing to many (particularly professionals using it for business purposes), it is not for me and not for most people.  It is a niche product.   But, there's nothing wrong with niche products -- we need them to fill the niche's.

GeorgeBMac

While this 16" has very limited (or no) upgradeability or repairability I give Apple kudos for one thing:   With this model they stopped combining the non-upgraeability with barely functional base specs, namely:   They dropped the 128K SSD in favor of a 500Gb and RAM is increased to 16Gb. 

For me, combining very low-end base specs with a lack of upgradeability is highly unethical -- people buying Apple expect and deserve more than that.

Along with backing off on their cherished but much maligned butterfly keyboard, this harolds a new era (or maybe a return to?) for Apple where functionality and slick design carry equal weight.