Editorial: Pro Display XDR and Apple's Grand Stand

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  • Reply 21 of 119

    Apple's loudest critics know plenty ... including the price of everything.  But they know the value of almost nothing at all.
    Value is not what is on a sticker, but what a market will pay for it. Price is simply a starting point for negotiation.

    Have you ever paid full sticker price for an auto or a truck? Most have not. The same is true of many other things. The overpricing in a jewelry store is nothing more than an attempt at a good first position in a price negotiation.

    I know the value of many things- woking in medicine and seeing diagnostics detect disease and injury that allows treatment and recovery has shown me many things of true and lasting value. Likewise, the high price of a skilled surgeon or other specialist reflects the valuable knowledge acquired over many years and great effort. I have seen patients with a thrombolytic stroke present with profound symptoms that were reversed quickly by the actions of a well trained medical team where the patient went home with no neuro deficits where previously they would have been permanently disabled or died. That is something of true and lasting value.

    What Apple is selling is something that will live on your desk for a couple of years before being cast a side to a trash heap or a recycle bin. It does not hold the monitor any better than any number of less expensive options without the Apple brand attached. The value/price analogy kind of withers in light of what is truly important in life and commerce.
    edited November 2019 williamlondonPezapscooter63
  • Reply 22 of 119
    after a years-long period of absence following the misfire of the 2012 cylindrical Mac Pro--There was no 2012 cylindrical Mac Pro.

    There was never a 2012 cylindrical Mac Pro.

    watto_cobratht
  • Reply 23 of 119
    bigtds said:
    You can spin it any way you want, but $1000 monitor stand is still a joke.
    Nope. I paid about a quarter of that for my VESA arm. It is not well engineered, wobbles, etc. 

    Just face it -- you have little understanding of the value of these tools for the people who use them.
    JWSCwilliamlondoncaladanianpscooter63watto_cobrachabigtht
  • Reply 24 of 119

    sarrica said:
    The last line ad hominem wasn't needed and undermines the rest of the article.
    The one saying the loud vocal critics are ignorant? That isn't really ad hominem. Are they actually ignorant? That is, not aware of what things cost and what the value-add equation is? If yes, then it's a valid observation. In my observation rags like Verge and their commenters are often quite ignorant. 
    edited November 2019 williamlondontenthousandthingspscooter63watto_cobratht
  • Reply 25 of 119

    Anyone who's actually used VESA arms for a monitor knows that: A. They have a tendency to slowly succumb to gravity and move out of the exact position you wanted B. Changing the position of the monitor can require a fair amount of fiddling around with loosening and tightening the tension in the arm That means that if Apple has created something that can change positions effortlessly AND hold that position without eventually drooping, it really could be worth $999 to someone.
    Yup, exactly. I have two VESA arms currently and experience the same.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 119
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    davgreg said:

    Apple's loudest critics know plenty ... including the price of everything.  But they know the value of almost nothing at all.
    Value is not what is on a sticker, but what a market will pay for it. Price is simply a starting point for negotiation.

    Have you ever paid full sticker price for an
    And of course the flaw with your thinking is that you know nothing about the market Apple is aiming for. Your fallback to the box standard car analogy kind of proves it.  
    williamlondonwatto_cobrapscooter63
  • Reply 27 of 119
    I work in showbiz. I have friends in camera departments, and while the reddit user he cherrypicked is spot on in his cost breakdowns, that market of buyer/user is SO niche and SO tiny that Apple would lose money catering any product to them. Pro Camera ops are not the people for whom the Mac Pro was designed. Its pretty clear it was designed for post/video guys, and while I don't begrudge them, I do think Apple is doing a serious disservice to the pro audio/graphics community, a MUCH larger community, by not offering some sort of model thats lean on the video-centric BS. Audio (and still graphics design, for that matter) don't need these ultra-expensive video cards that hold the Pro at 6k per unit minimum. At least having the option to dumb down the GPUs would be nice. They'd sure as hell sell more machines. I just bought a trashcan Mac Pro. 12-core, 64RAM and 1TB SSD. I paid 2k. I'd have happily dropped double that on a new Mac Pro if it had similar specs, and I care not what video card it has.
    dysamoria
  • Reply 28 of 119
    hentaiboyhentaiboy Posts: 1,245member
    Anyone who's actually used VESA arms for a monitor knows that: A. They have a tendency to slowly succumb to gravity and move out of the exact position you wanted
    Much like the displays on >$5000 iMacs.
    edited November 2019
  • Reply 29 of 119
    davgreg said:
    The stand is a nice bit of engineering but in no way is worth $1000. In the end it is a monitor stand.

    Comparing a handful of machined aluminum parts to a complex pro grade, multi-element lens is also a bit of a stretch. For a while I worked as a Pro photographer (pre-digital) and understand what is involved in high quality lenses.

    Now, if you are someone who can write off the stand on your taxes it probably is just something you will complain about and then buy. However, there is a significant market for people who want a high quality display but have no desire to be robbed of $1000 just because it was "designed by Apple in California".

    This fashion mentality where $20 Levi 501s made in America become designer "jeans" that cost hundreds of Dollars has infected Apple. Charging high prices just because you can evokes the kind of rapacious pricing of medical equipment where a simple lamp is intentionally put on a proprietary mount and priced 10-100x more than a similar lamp with a standard mount. It may be legal but it is not good business.

    I am planning on ordering a Mac Pro when it becomes available but will not be buying the display. I simply have better uses for the money.
    Similar to the claim that the iPhone is just a phone. 
    williamlondonwatto_cobrachabig
  • Reply 30 of 119
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 9,628member
    davgreg said:
    I am planning on ordering a Mac Pro when it becomes available but will not be buying the display. I simply have better uses for the money.

    Meaning, of course, that whatever display you buy or use on that Mac Pro will be incapable of using the graphics power of the machine. It has been pointed out many times now that the XDR display is comparable to existing $30,000.00+ reference monitors. So I simply don’t buy your “better uses for the money” claptrap.

    williamlondonmacpluspluswatto_cobrapscooter63
  • Reply 31 of 119
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,426member
    lkrupp said:
    Not sure I’ll ever change my opinion that $1000 for a hunk of aluminum is reasonable. It’s no worse, however, than a $55 piece of rubber that we buy from Apple to protect our phones that likely costs less than a buck to make. 
    And what’s it to you anyway? The Mac Pro, the XDR monitor and its stand were not designed for you in the first place.
    He probably fumes at the price of Ferraris too.
    williamlondonStrangeDayslkruppwatto_cobrachabig
  • Reply 32 of 119
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 5,816member
    bigtds said:
    You can spin it any way you want, but $1000 monitor stand is still a joke.
    Which just means that quietly, you want it but too ashamed to not be in a position career-wise to justify it.
    macplusplusrundhvidwatto_cobrapscooter63chabig
  • Reply 33 of 119
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    neilm said:
    I don't know that there was any need to reopen and reargue the whole Pro Stand issue, much less in 1,955 words. But this article is nonetheless completely on point: the stand is an elaborately engineered product, built in low volume for the professional market. (That Sony 4K rig shopping list provides a telling comparison.) Don't like it? Then don't buy it. 

    As usual with such things, the loudest voices of internet outrage are from people who aren't even remotely part of the target market.
    Many of us USED TO BE part of the target market. We were used to considering ourselves part of that target market, and we were waiting for Apple to resume selling effective product to us. We don’t know why Apple have decided we don’t matter to them any more. All we know is that Apple have placed their ONLY heavy-duty machine WAY out of our price range.
    williamlondonmuthuk_vanalingamtht
  • Reply 34 of 119
    davgreg said:
    The stand is a nice bit of engineering but in no way is worth $1000. In the end it is a monitor stand.

    Comparing a handful of machined aluminum parts to a complex pro grade, multi-element lens is also a bit of a stretch. For a while I worked as a Pro photographer (pre-digital) and understand what is involved in high quality lenses.

    Now, if you are someone who can write off the stand on your taxes it probably is just something you will complain about and then buy. However, there is a significant market for people who want a high quality display but have no desire to be robbed of $1000 just because it was "designed by Apple in California".

    This fashion mentality where $20 Levi 501s made in America become designer "jeans" that cost hundreds of Dollars has infected Apple. Charging high prices just because you can evokes the kind of rapacious pricing of medical equipment where a simple lamp is intentionally put on a proprietary mount and priced 10-100x more than a similar lamp with a standard mount. It may be legal but it is not good business.

    I am planning on ordering a Mac Pro when it becomes available but will not be buying the display. I simply have better uses for the money.
    Go to Red, price me out their least expensive camera, and tell me that $1000 for a monitor stand is a stretch. Just the brains for one of the Red cameras only is $14,950.00. Obviously the people who will be paying $1000 for a monitor stand, are in the market to spend that kind of money, and will easily make that money back based off of their line of work.
    StrangeDayswatto_cobrachabig
  • Reply 35 of 119
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member

    Anyone who's actually used VESA arms for a monitor knows that: A. They have a tendency to slowly succumb to gravity and move out of the exact position you wanted B. Changing the position of the monitor can require a fair amount of fiddling around with loosening and tightening the tension in the arm That means that if Apple has created something that can change positions effortlessly AND hold that position without eventually drooping, it really could be worth $999 to someone.
    I’m not in disagreement with the existing junk being junk, and also that it costs too much for junk. I’m just not convinced the price of Apple’s stand is worthy of the results. Time will tell.

    Also, I wonder if the engineering done here, being sold at that price, might have been a bit over-engineered for the purpose.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 36 of 119
    anomeanome Posts: 1,465member
    I'll say it again.... I have been told by someone in the know (has had one for 6 months now) that the display comes with a stand included in the box. Just not the Pro stand.

    And holy cow! I bought a little quick-release setup for my Red camera for $1500... a 480GB SSD rehoused in a RED enclosure is still $1450... For professional work, this is not that expensive. Especially if you see that a color correct monitor has usually been at least 3 times the price of the Pro monitor and Pro stand!

    They will sell thousands of them if not tens of thousands. But not millions of them.
    Thanks for confirming that. I recall hearing something about it at the announcement, but no-one ever seems to mention that you don't actually need to buy the Pro stand, the display comes with a basic stand in the box. A lot of the complaints I have heard about the display are along the lines of "You pay US$5000 and you don't even get a stand." or "You need to spend US$1000 extra to use it."

    Even if it doesn't come with a basic, non adjustable stand, there will be other options, but as I understand it, and studiomusic has confirmed, your US$5000 monitor does come with a free stand. Now, I fully expect to hear complaints that the free stand is cheap, or basic, or isn't height adjustable, or whatever else they can complain about, but these people were never going to be happy anyway.
    fastasleepwatto_cobrapscooter63
  • Reply 37 of 119
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,048member
    davgreg said:
    The stand is a nice bit of engineering but in no way is worth $1000. In the end it is a monitor stand.

    Comparing a handful of machined aluminum parts to a complex pro grade, multi-element lens is also a bit of a stretch. For a while I worked as a Pro photographer (pre-digital) and understand what is involved in high quality lenses.

    Now, if you are someone who can write off the stand on your taxes it probably is just something you will complain about and then buy. However, there is a significant market for people who want a high quality display but have no desire to be robbed of $1000 just because it was "designed by Apple in California".

    This fashion mentality where $20 Levi 501s made in America become designer "jeans" that cost hundreds of Dollars has infected Apple. Charging high prices just because you can evokes the kind of rapacious pricing of medical equipment where a simple lamp is intentionally put on a proprietary mount and priced 10-100x more than a similar lamp with a standard mount. It may be legal but it is not good business.

    I am planning on ordering a Mac Pro when it becomes available but will not be buying the display. I simply have better uses for the money.
    In no way is it worth $1000, TO YOU!  Got it.  Next.

    BTW, I am genuinely surprised that you are actually going to anti up for the Mac Pro, given your previous diatribes against the price.
    williamlondonStrangeDaysfastasleeprundhvidwatto_cobrapscooter63
  • Reply 38 of 119
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    I’ll give one note of positive commentary for this latest piece of verbose and unnecessarily  defensive pro-Apple verbiage from DED: I did not know what was really going on in that well-posted photo of people seemingly adoring a $999 monitor stand. I appreciate the clarification about what was really going on.

    Did Apple learn any lesson about how to present their new wares to avoid this kind of easy misunderstanding and/or satire? It reminds me of when VR has been marketed with photos and videos of goofy-looking nerds, wearing massive and ugly goggles on their face, dance about, with mouth agape and nothing but ridicule possible in the mind of the otherwise blind observer (blind to what the model is supposed to be experiencing). 

    Do VR products still get marketed that way?

    Any way... the fact that DED was IN THAT SCENE also begins to answer my prior question as to why he’s so seemingly defensive: this particular issue didn’t just attack a company he’s weirdly protective of; it seemingly attacked him as well. It’s personal.
    Dan_Dilger
  • Reply 39 of 119
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    anome said:
    I'll say it again.... I have been told by someone in the know (has had one for 6 months now) that the display comes with a stand included in the box. Just not the Pro stand.

    And holy cow! I bought a little quick-release setup for my Red camera for $1500... a 480GB SSD rehoused in a RED enclosure is still $1450... For professional work, this is not that expensive. Especially if you see that a color correct monitor has usually been at least 3 times the price of the Pro monitor and Pro stand!

    They will sell thousands of them if not tens of thousands. But not millions of them.
    Thanks for confirming that. I recall hearing something about it at the announcement, but no-one ever seems to mention that you don't actually need to buy the Pro stand, the display comes with a basic stand in the box. A lot of the complaints I have heard about the display are along the lines of "You pay US$5000 and you don't even get a stand." or "You need to spend US$1000 extra to use it."

    Even if it doesn't come with a basic, non adjustable stand, there will be other options, but as I understand it, and studiomusic has confirmed, your US$5000 monitor does come with a free stand.
    I’ve heard it too, but it’s basically at rumor level. This still has not been confirmed by Apple, has it?
  • Reply 40 of 119
    dysamoria said:
    neilm said:
    I don't know that there was any need to reopen and reargue the whole Pro Stand issue, much less in 1,955 words. But this article is nonetheless completely on point: the stand is an elaborately engineered product, built in low volume for the professional market. (That Sony 4K rig shopping list provides a telling comparison.) Don't like it? Then don't buy it. 

    As usual with such things, the loudest voices of internet outrage are from people who aren't even remotely part of the target market.
    Many of us USED TO BE part of the target market. We were used to considering ourselves part of that target market, and we were waiting for Apple to resume selling effective product to us. We don’t know why Apple have decided we don’t matter to them any more. All we know is that Apple have placed their ONLY heavy-duty machine WAY out of our price range.
    Oh, cry me a river. We paid the equivalent of a Mac Pro plus Pro Display plus $1 K stand in 1984 for the original Mac plus and dot matrix printer ($3K). Tiny screen and two programs, MacWrite and MacPaint. And we barely cleared the credit line our incomes were so low.

    Best Investment Ever.
    edited November 2019 StrangeDaysfastasleepFileMakerFellercat52Dan_Dilgerwatto_cobraWTimberman
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