I must say I’ve noticed the little arrow appear at the top of the screen a lot these days. I was suspecting iOS sending data, glad to see it confirmed, also not glad as it makes a complete mockery of privacy and security settings in iOS, and makes Apples ‘what’s on your iPhone stays on your iPhone’ advertising campaign seem incredibly hypocritical. I’ve noticed the gps arrow on my iPhone XR and iPad Pro.
Apple has recently proved it is no different, indeed in some cases worst, then Amazon or Google or even Facebook with data collection recently. And appears to only be offering solutions once caught red handed with its hand in the cookie jar!. It really should be the polar opposite. Particularly considering all the health information the company gathers on you if you wear an Apple Watch.
Perhaps as suggested, it would be far better for Apple to be completely upfront and honest about it’s data collecting and tracking features, in plain English and not buried in cleverly worded text in a multi page end user agreement. Change it’s wording. That way they won’t appear as the bad guys, and everyone knows where they stand. Location services are useful, just be up front with how they work.
Perhaps you could articulate how Apple is "worse" than Amazon, Google or FaceBook with respect to data collection ? That is an extraordinary claim that warrants extraordinary evidence to support it (given Amazon, Google and Facebook are 3 of the world's largest collectors of personal information, and all of them actively generate income from the personal information they collect, and two of them own two of the largest data brokerages in the world)
@uroshnor I wasn't aware any of the FANGS also owned data brokerages. Could you be more specific as to which ones and the names of those data brokers? That's something perhaps concerning.
I certainly have noticed the location services icon is on in iOS 13 even when nothing using it is open. This was not the case in any prior iOS version. A clear explanation of why this is happening is lacking from Apple. While I get that cell phones are trackable via cell etc that still does not excuse Apple adding tracking that cannot easily be turned off. Disabling location services is NOT a viable answer as it neuters many of the phones needed features.
So, the only comments possible in here are to be absolute that Apple is horrible, or to be absolute that Apple is perfect and the users and AI are wrong wrong wrong (or at least upset about nothing at all)...?
By the way: Have Apple fixed the bug where iOS downloads music from your iTunes account via cellular data due to your car telling it to play music via bluetooth (when the phone has no music downloaded), REGARDLESS of having turned OFF EVERY relevant setting and switch that is meant to STOP it from doing EXACTLY that? NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THIS.
I must say I’ve noticed the little arrow appear at the top of the screen a lot these days. I was suspecting iOS sending data, glad to see it confirmed, also not glad as it makes a complete mockery of privacy and security settings in iOS, and makes Apples ‘what’s on your iPhone stays on your iPhone’ advertising campaign seem incredibly hypocritical. I’ve noticed the gps arrow on my iPhone XR and iPad Pro.
Apple has recently proved it is no different, indeed in some cases worst, then Amazon or Google or even Facebook with data collection recently. And appears to only be offering solutions once caught red handed with its hand in the cookie jar!. It really should be the polar opposite. Particularly considering all the health information the company gathers on you if you wear an Apple Watch.
Perhaps as suggested, it would be far better for Apple to be completely upfront and honest about it’s data collecting and tracking features, in plain English and not buried in cleverly worded text in a multi page end user agreement. Change it’s wording. That way they won’t appear as the bad guys, and everyone knows where they stand. Location services are useful, just be up front with how they work.
I would think that if Apple wanted to secretly collect location data from the users of their iOS mobile devices, they would be able do it by not lighting up that little arrow and thus letting the users know that their iOS device was sending out data of some form. Unless you think that was just a bug in their software that secretly collects location data from iOS users devices.
I would also think that even if an iOS user denied location data to all their third party apps, the mobile device still needs to know where it is. Otherwise it wouldn't be a smartphone. If you make a call from your smartphone, the phone already knows where it is and immediately remembers the best tower to connect to, based on past connection data that is kept in the phone. Otherwise it would waste battery power searching for the best tower, every time you make a call or access the internet, after traveling a distance from the last time you used voice or data on that device.
And i remember how Apple once got in trouble for this connection data, that is kept in the phone. The data was suppose to only to be kept for 6 months back, but with one of the iOS's, a bug in the software kept the data on the iPone, for more than a year.
I must say I’ve noticed the little arrow appear at the top of the screen a lot these days. I was suspecting iOS sending data, glad to see it confirmed, also not glad as it makes a complete mockery of privacy and security settings in iOS, and makes Apples ‘what’s on your iPhone stays on your iPhone’ advertising campaign seem incredibly hypocritical. I’ve noticed the gps arrow on my iPhone XR and iPad Pro.
Apple has recently proved it is no different, indeed in some cases worst, then Amazon or Google or even Facebook with data collection recently. And appears to only be offering solutions once caught red handed with its hand in the cookie jar!. It really should be the polar opposite. Particularly considering all the health information the company gathers on you if you wear an Apple Watch.
Perhaps as suggested, it would be far better for Apple to be completely upfront and honest about it’s data collecting and tracking features, in plain English and not buried in cleverly worded text in a multi page end user agreement. Change it’s wording. That way they won’t appear as the bad guys, and everyone knows where they stand. Location services are useful, just be up front with how they work.
Insanely trollish, dishonest, laughable and sensational post.
Worse than Google and Facebook? What an incredibly horse-shit statement. Apple is still head and shoulders above every single major tech company when it comes to privacy and security. Secondly, try educating yourself before spouting non-sense. That arrow doesn't mean Apple is "collecting" your location. It means an app is using it. And to disable that, you just disable the app's location access.
Love how trolls are always chomping at the bit to make such grandoise "Apple is horrible" statements, which necessitate the spinning of lies and misinformation.
What the heck. It seems every other month a major privacy invasion of our iPhones gets discovered. It’s almost like a built in...
revolving back door.
back foot gets discovered. Said company “patches” it - only for a new opening to be “discovered” and “patched, etc. etc.
Please, as the article points out: You want to turn off completely Location Services? Then COMPLETELY TURN OFF LOCATION SERVICES.
Couldn’t be simpler.
“ For now, the only surefire way to avoid intermittent GPS pings on iPhone 11 Pro is to completely disable Location Services in Settings”.
duh.
You mean COMPLETELY TURN OFF YOUR IPHONE? Because, as was stated by someone else here, being connected to a cell tower helps to pinpoint your location as does your IP address. Might as well chuck your iPhone in the bin if you're that sensitive to anyone knowing your location!
Bad AppleInsider. Stop posting misleading nonsense clickbait. Turn off location services. “Problem”solved.
If this was Google,would you still be saying that ? Oh, If It's Apple then it's ok right.
Sort of... The difference is business models. Apple wants to sell you Electronics hardware and online services, whereas google wants to sell you. To anyone with cash. It is in apple best interests (both optically and fiduciary) to respect your private data, Alphabet is just the opposite, it is in their fiduciary interest to sell you down the river privacy be dammed. Scary thing it, is appears they have been collecting personal health information without Doctors nor patients knowledge or permission (HIPAA be dammed) And again because of their differing business models it is a concern that goog is collecting healthcare data apple, not so much.
N.B. With location services disabled, 3rd parties can still get your general location, if not your specific location, from your IP address.
They can also track it by cell towers and triangulation of the data.
For all the paranoid, your privacy was sold out long ago. Those camera looking things all over the roads are license plate readers and they usually belong to private companies that sell the data. Your store loyalty cards also mark you, and what you buy and where and when. Many newer cars are phoning home and that data is being recorded and stored as well. Your streaming service/cable/satellite TV service knows what you watch and what you search for. Many workers carry devices or have apps on their own that track their location. Public internet providers know that Mac ID (x) was logged on for (x) minutes on (x) day and went to the following websites.
The privacy genie was let out of the bottle when the internet was in its infancy.
I certainly have noticed the location services icon is on in iOS 13 even when nothing using it is open. This was not the case in any prior iOS version. A clear explanation of why this is happening is lacking from Apple. While I get that cell phones are trackable via cell etc that still does not excuse Apple adding tracking that cannot easily be turned off. Disabling location services is NOT a viable answer as it neuters many of the phones needed features.
Help me out here. It sounds like you want to have all the features but none of the things that are required to make it possible?
What the heck. It seems every other month a major privacy invasion of our iPhones gets discovered. It’s almost like a built in...
revolving back door.
back foot gets discovered. Said company “patches” it - only for a new opening to be “discovered” and “patched, etc. etc.
Please, as the article points out: You want to turn off completely Location Services? Then COMPLETELY TURN OFF LOCATION SERVICES.
Couldn’t be simpler.
“ For now, the only surefire way to avoid intermittent GPS pings on iPhone 11 Pro is to completely disable Location Services in Settings”.
duh.
You mean COMPLETELY TURN OFF YOUR IPHONE? Because, as was stated by someone else here, being connected to a cell tower helps to pinpoint your location as does your IP address. Might as well chuck your iPhone in the bin if you're that sensitive to anyone knowing your location!
Lol. That’s not a “location services” issue now is it? which is the subject of the article and whose solution is the lede buried at the end: flip the provided switch. Again, simple. .
That arrow doesn't mean Apple is "collecting" your location. It means an app is using it. And to disable that, you just disable the app's location access.
Before telling others to educate themselves, you may want to be sure you have the facts straight.
The article says:
“As evidenced in the short clip, Apple's iOS location services indicator, a small arrow icon that denotes recent or current use of GPS data, appears next to apps and services that have been manually disabled in Settings.”
The response from the Apple engineer doesn’t address the actual issue. This isn’t a case of system services collecting information for core services. It appears to be possible for individual apps to collect location data even when the user has disabled location services for that app.
Bad AppleInsider. Stop posting misleading nonsense clickbait. Turn off location services. “Problem”solved.
If this was Google,would you still be saying that ? Oh, If It's Apple then it's ok right.
Sort of... The difference is business models. Apple wants to sell you Electronics hardware and online services, whereas google wants to sell you. To anyone with cash. It is in apple best interests (both optically and fiduciary) to respect your private data, Alphabet is just the opposite, it is in their fiduciary interest to sell you down the river privacy be dammed. Scary thing it, is appears they have been collecting personal health information without Doctors nor patients knowledge or permission (HIPAA be dammed) And again because of their differing business models it is a concern that goog is collecting healthcare data apple, not so much.
Sort of is right... Google doesn't want to "sell YOU", they want to sell ad placement to Apple and GM and Proctor and Gamble and Grannie's Homemade Goodies and millions of other companies using anonymized groups of Advertising ID numbers originally derived from individuals interactions with Google services thru their Google accounts. Real people making real search requests, the resultant data being relegated to an anonymous reset-able or opt-out Ad ID to be bundled in with thousands of demographically similar Ad ID numbers for targeted advertising purposes.
The personally identifiable YOU is not the target, but instead the basket of Advertising ID numbers that includes the one that is meant to represent your interests.
Second Google hasn't been "collecting personal health information" without permission AFAICT. They've been contracted by Ascension for a number of services including the creation of a health database and development of an AI-based health assistance initiative. In actuality what Ascension is doing in partnership with Google is pretty common tho generally on a much smaller scale. Ascension announced it here: https://ascension.org/News/News-Articles/2019/11/11/19/51/Ascension-and-Google-working-together-on-healthcare-transformation
This is well worth listening to since it's become somewhat common for researchers, health providers, insurers, etc to share health data between them in the interest of improving health care for all. Regulators need to look at rules again and tighten up where needed in light of more recent health research initiatives. There's nothing illegal or unethical about the Ascension/Google partnership under HIPAA rules as can best be determined.
My advice: Pay less attention to talking point FUD and click-bait headlines and depend more on your own research especially if it's something you think is important. Don't be so lazy as to base your understanding on the first paragraph of a "news" article. You're not likely to find the details/explanations there.
Anyway, it's too common for these kinds of threads to turn into "whaddabout Google", trying to make it just go away instead of having to discuss Apple. But if you still want to make it about Google rather than Apple carry on at least knowing better now.
Regarding the actual story here it's pretty much a non-story IMO. Apple pretty clearly implies there are certain system services where users don’t get the choice whether or not data is collected. Someone in the thread mentioned the apparently soon-to-release Apple version of Tile, and obviously for it to be successful there has to be some widely-enabled location tracking. I would tend to agree the new item-tracking hardware Apple plans has much to do with this. There's no intention to be deceitful or sneaky, just be successful with hardware sales and services while balancing the protection of user privacy.
I must say I’ve noticed the little arrow appear at the top of the screen a lot these days. I was suspecting iOS sending data, glad to see it confirmed, also not glad as it makes a complete mockery of privacy and security settings in iOS, and makes Apples ‘what’s on your iPhone stays on your iPhone’ advertising campaign seem incredibly hypocritical. I’ve noticed the gps arrow on my iPhone XR and iPad Pro.
Apple has recently proved it is no different, indeed in some cases worst, then Amazon or Google or even Facebook with data collection recently. And appears to only be offering solutions once caught red handed with its hand in the cookie jar!. It really should be the polar opposite. Particularly considering all the health information the company gathers on you if you wear an Apple Watch.
Perhaps as suggested, it would be far better for Apple to be completely upfront and honest about it’s data collecting and tracking features, in plain English and not buried in cleverly worded text in a multi page end user agreement. Change it’s wording. That way they won’t appear as the bad guys, and everyone knows where they stand. Location services are useful, just be up front with how they work.
Hyperbole much? You realize we are talking about 1 or 2 Phone models that are pinging for crowd sourced Wi-Fi mapping, with the data being sent without identification info? Stating this is equivalent or worse than Facebook, Google and Amazon is laughable.
I certainly have noticed the location services icon is on in iOS 13 even when nothing using it is open. This was not the case in any prior iOS version. A clear explanation of why this is happening is lacking from Apple. While I get that cell phones are trackable via cell etc that still does not excuse Apple adding tracking that cannot easily be turned off. Disabling location services is NOT a viable answer as it neuters many of the phones needed features.
It is not lacking from Apple... Read the article...
"We do not see any actual security implications," an Apple engineer said. "It is expected behavior that the Location Services icon appears in the status bar when Location Services is enabled. The icon appears for system services that do not have a switch in Settings."
Apple made a change so that now when those system services make use of location services it shows the icon... that was not the case in previous versions of the OS.
N.B. With location services disabled, 3rd parties can still get your general location, if not your specific location, from your IP address.
They can also track it by cell towers and triangulation of the data.
For all the paranoid, your privacy was sold out long ago. Those camera looking things all over the roads are license plate readers and they usually belong to private companies that sell the data. Your store loyalty cards also mark you, and what you buy and where and when. Many newer cars are phoning home and that data is being recorded and stored as well. Your streaming service/cable/satellite TV service knows what you watch and what you search for. Many workers carry devices or have apps on their own that track their location. Public internet providers know that Mac ID (x) was logged on for (x) minutes on (x) day and went to the following websites.
The privacy genie was let out of the bottle when the internet was in its infancy.
Yes indeed. I helped develop a “loyalty” system for retail that’s been in widespread use since the mid 90s. It was then and still is all about data collection and feeding data warehouses with consumer and transaction information that is mined, processed, and packaged into a monetizeable form for sale. You’d be surprised who was driving a lot of the data mining operations well before Google showed up to the party.
Back on topic... this is simply another pseudo controversy to rile up the Anti-Apple riff raff who need something to cheer themselves up about as Apple wraps up another stellar year of innovation and profitability.
Is it really shocking to learn that built-in location dependent features require access to - brace yourself boys and girls - location services? Unless you’re living in a fairyland world where herds of unicorns that poop Skittles roam freely about the country this little detail should come as no surprise. Would you also be shocked to learn that your mailman needs to know your address?
Yeah, I know, this is all part of a huge conspiracy.
The headline for this article is factually incorrect.
"iPhone 11 Pro found to collect location data against user settings"
That's not what the linked article says. It says that there are some features in iOS that do not include a fine-grained location services preference toggle. These services ARE controlled by the global setting.
So, no there is no evidence that iPhone 11 Pro is ignoring user settings.
“As evidenced in the short clip, Apple's iOS location services indicator, a small arrow icon that denotes recent or current use of GPS data, appears next to apps and services that have been manually disabled in Settings.”
The response from the Apple engineer doesn’t address the actual issue. This isn’t a case of system services collecting information for core services. It appears to be possible for individual apps to collect location data even when the user has disabled location services for that app.
Unless I am mistaken, Apple's documents say the location indicator appears next to apps and services that have used your location within the past 24 hours. So it doesn't matter if the user has disabled location services for an app until at least 24 hours have elapsed. I don't think Krebs said he did that.
The headline for this article is factually incorrect.
"iPhone 11 Pro found to collect location data against user settings"
That's not what the linked article says. It says that there are some features in iOS that do not include a fine-grained location services preference toggle. These services ARE controlled by the global setting.
So, no there is no evidence that iPhone 11 Pro is ignoring user settings.
Which is twice as bad because a lot of people here don't actually read the friggin article. They just read the headline and post or I guess assume what was said.
I certainly have noticed the location services icon is on in iOS 13 even when nothing using it is open. This was not the case in any prior iOS version. A clear explanation of why this is happening is lacking from Apple. While I get that cell phones are trackable via cell etc that still does not excuse Apple adding tracking that cannot easily be turned off. Disabling location services is NOT a viable answer as it neuters many of the phones needed features.
Help me out here. It sounds like you want to have all the features but none of the things that are required to make it possible?
Not at all. Just wondering what changed in iOS 13. I had those features in 11, 12 etc but the location icon wasn’t on unless I was actually using the app in question. It is reasonable to get an explanation of what’s changed and why. Especially given Apple’s focus on privacy.
I certainly have noticed the location services icon is on in iOS 13 even when nothing using it is open. This was not the case in any prior iOS version. A clear explanation of why this is happening is lacking from Apple. While I get that cell phones are trackable via cell etc that still does not excuse Apple adding tracking that cannot easily be turned off. Disabling location services is NOT a viable answer as it neuters many of the phones needed features.
It is not lacking from Apple... Read the article...
"We do not see any actual security implications," an Apple engineer said. "It is expected behavior that the Location Services icon appears in the status bar when Location Services is enabled. The icon appears for system services that do not have a switch in Settings."
Apple made a change so that now when those system services make use of location services it shows the icon... that was not the case in previous versions of the OS.
So if I kill all my apps and restart my phone and the icon shows up what service is using it? I’m not angry at Apple just want to know what’s changed and why.
Comments
By the way: Have Apple fixed the bug where iOS downloads music from your iTunes account via cellular data due to your car telling it to play music via bluetooth (when the phone has no music downloaded), REGARDLESS of having turned OFF EVERY relevant setting and switch that is meant to STOP it from doing EXACTLY that? NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THIS.
I would also think that even if an iOS user denied location data to all their third party apps, the mobile device still needs to know where it is. Otherwise it wouldn't be a smartphone. If you make a call from your smartphone, the phone already knows where it is and immediately remembers the best tower to connect to, based on past connection data that is kept in the phone. Otherwise it would waste battery power searching for the best tower, every time you make a call or access the internet, after traveling a distance from the last time you used voice or data on that device.
And i remember how Apple once got in trouble for this connection data, that is kept in the phone. The data was suppose to only to be kept for 6 months back, but with one of the iOS's, a bug in the software kept the data on the iPone, for more than a year.
Insanely trollish, dishonest, laughable and sensational post.
Worse than Google and Facebook? What an incredibly horse-shit statement. Apple is still head and shoulders above every single major tech company when it comes to privacy and security. Secondly, try educating yourself before spouting non-sense. That arrow doesn't mean Apple is "collecting" your location. It means an app is using it. And to disable that, you just disable the app's location access.
Love how trolls are always chomping at the bit to make such grandoise "Apple is horrible" statements, which necessitate the spinning of lies and misinformation.
It is in apple best interests (both optically and fiduciary) to respect your private data, Alphabet is just the opposite, it is in their fiduciary interest to sell you down the river privacy be dammed.
Scary thing it, is appears they have been collecting personal health information without Doctors nor patients knowledge or permission (HIPAA be dammed) And again because of their differing business models it is a concern that goog is collecting healthcare data apple, not so much.
For all the paranoid, your privacy was sold out long ago. Those camera looking things all over the roads are license plate readers and they usually belong to private companies that sell the data. Your store loyalty cards also mark you, and what you buy and where and when. Many newer cars are phoning home and that data is being recorded and stored as well. Your streaming service/cable/satellite TV service knows what you watch and what you search for. Many workers carry devices or have apps on their own that track their location. Public internet providers know that Mac ID (x) was logged on for (x) minutes on (x) day and went to the following websites.
The privacy genie was let out of the bottle when the internet was in its infancy.
The article says:
“As evidenced in the short clip, Apple's iOS location services indicator, a small arrow icon that denotes recent or current use of GPS data, appears next to apps and services that have been manually disabled in Settings.”
Google doesn't want to "sell YOU", they want to sell ad placement to Apple and GM and Proctor and Gamble and Grannie's Homemade Goodies and millions of other companies using anonymized groups of Advertising ID numbers originally derived from individuals interactions with Google services thru their Google accounts. Real people making real search requests, the resultant data being relegated to an anonymous reset-able or opt-out Ad ID to be bundled in with thousands of demographically similar Ad ID numbers for targeted advertising purposes.
The personally identifiable YOU is not the target, but instead the basket of Advertising ID numbers that includes the one that is meant to represent your interests.
Second Google hasn't been "collecting personal health information" without permission AFAICT. They've been contracted by Ascension for a number of services including the creation of a health database and development of an AI-based health assistance initiative. In actuality what Ascension is doing in partnership with Google is pretty common tho generally on a much smaller scale.
Ascension announced it here:
https://ascension.org/News/News-Articles/2019/11/11/19/51/Ascension-and-Google-working-together-on-healthcare-transformation
and Recode had a great discussion and podcast along with an excellent clarification for the pros and cons here:
https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/11/19/20971337/google-medical-records-ascension-reset-podcast
This is well worth listening to since it's become somewhat common for researchers, health providers, insurers, etc to share health data between them in the interest of improving health care for all. Regulators need to look at rules again and tighten up where needed in light of more recent health research initiatives. There's nothing illegal or unethical about the Ascension/Google partnership under HIPAA rules as can best be determined.
My advice: Pay less attention to talking point FUD and click-bait headlines and depend more on your own research especially if it's something you think is important. Don't be so lazy as to base your understanding on the first paragraph of a "news" article. You're not likely to find the details/explanations there.
Anyway, it's too common for these kinds of threads to turn into "whaddabout Google", trying to make it just go away instead of having to discuss Apple.
But if you still want to make it about Google rather than Apple carry on at least knowing better now.
Regarding the actual story here it's pretty much a non-story IMO.
Apple pretty clearly implies there are certain system services where users don’t get the choice whether or not data is collected. Someone in the thread mentioned the apparently soon-to-release Apple version of Tile, and obviously for it to be successful there has to be some widely-enabled location tracking. I would tend to agree the new item-tracking hardware Apple plans has much to do with this. There's no intention to be deceitful or sneaky, just be successful with hardware sales and services while balancing the protection of user privacy.
Hyperbole much? You realize we are talking about 1 or 2 Phone models that are pinging for crowd sourced Wi-Fi mapping, with the data being sent without identification info? Stating this is equivalent or worse than Facebook, Google and Amazon is laughable.
It is not lacking from Apple... Read the article...
Apple made a change so that now when those system services make use of location services it shows the icon... that was not the case in previous versions of the OS.
Is it really shocking to learn that built-in location dependent features require access to - brace yourself boys and girls - location services? Unless you’re living in a fairyland world where herds of unicorns that poop Skittles roam freely about the country this little detail should come as no surprise. Would you also be shocked to learn that your mailman needs to know your address?
That's not what the linked article says. It says that there are some features in iOS that do not include a fine-grained location services preference toggle. These services ARE controlled by the global setting.
So, no there is no evidence that iPhone 11 Pro is ignoring user settings.