Lithium and Cobalt come from various sources around the world, I have no idea if all these mines regions use the most ethical methods, but Congo is not the only source.
Grant it Congo is number 1 for Cobalt, but there is lots of other sources. China is the largest investor in the Congo for mining keep this in mind.
There is no proof Apple or any of these company actually source out of the Congo. The problem is many time the minerals from many regions get combined during the entire supply chain process. Even if Apple required their supplier not to use Congo sources minerals it becomes very hard to isolate the Congo materials. One way Apple and many companies use to monitor if Congo minerals show up in their supply chain is to test material for radio isotopes since each region of the world have specific isotopes in their minerals. But if any supply chain at any time had Congo minerals or neighboring countries in there supply, it will contaminate the entire supply chain's isotopes. Using these markers is only good if the supply chain never had Congo minerals.
They are suing Apple since it get clicks and create outrage in the outrage culture. Since they would have to prove Apple supply chain specifically sources out of the Congo. I personally suspect Apple and other US companies requires its supply chain not to specifically source out the Congo due to the Current US required on the Conflict Mineral reports requirements each year. We know that Apple has been focused on responsible sourcing for many years even before the Conflict Mineral requirement came in 4 yrs ago.
“Outrage culture”...? It’s all just the same to you? Child labor, sexual assault, slave wages, racism... It’s all just an undesirable irritation to you? We should all just allow every unethical and abusive act to go on and on, so that there’s none of this bothersome outrage for you to know about?
I’ve heard it said that “If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention”.
I’ll offer a variation: “If you’re not outraged, it’s because you’re too comfortable with your own unrecognized privilege, or you’re just plain callous.”
Then there’s this one: “All that is needed for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing.”
I’ll offer up this variation: “Nothing bad gets fixed when people are bullied into silence by contentment culture”.
You need to dismount your moral high horse. Outrage manipulation is real. Yes, it’s sometimes used to bring attention to a wrong, but sometimes it’s just to draw clicks. And Apple often is the target, not because it’s the most egregious offender but because it’s Apple.
“At the time, Apple responded that it was unable to determine the origin of the cobalt that it used.”
If they really haven’t tried to find out since, it means that either they don’t want to know the answer, or don’t care. I presume the former, though the most likely thing is that they do know the answer and have decided to ignore it, for financial reasons of course.
Specifically since this point they trace cobalt to the source. It's all in their sustainability report.
Is it?
I see where they are committing themselves to future recycling of minerals, and including cobalt. I also found where they had paused purchases of cobalt from the DRC on a temporary basis in 2017 while the sourcing was confirmed. They also said they were negotiating to purchase cobalt directly from mine owners themselves in 2017/18. I don't see anything about the outcome of those plans being reported. They do file annually (per SEC regulations?) on conflict minerals and sourcing, but cobalt is not a conflict mineral (gold, tin, tantalum and tungsten are).
I could be missing Apple's mention of the current status so please do link the source. In any event it's obvious Apple does understand the Congo problem coupled with Apple's need for a reliable and extensive source of cobalt for their products and has at least considered some solutions.
So if I buy a new tungsten light bulb then I might committed a crime against humanity!?
“At the time, Apple responded that it was unable to determine the origin of the cobalt that it used.”
If they really haven’t tried to find out since, it means that either they don’t want to know the answer, or don’t care. I presume the former, though the most likely thing is that they do know the answer and have decided to ignore it, for financial reasons of course.
Specifically since this point they trace cobalt to the source. It's all in their sustainability report.
Is it?
I see where they are committing themselves to future recycling of minerals, and including cobalt. I also found where they had paused purchases of cobalt from the DRC on a temporary basis in 2017 while the sourcing was confirmed. They also said they were negotiating to purchase cobalt directly from mine owners themselves in 2017/18. I don't see anything about the outcome of those plans being reported. They do file annually (per SEC regulations?) on conflict minerals and sourcing, but cobalt is not a conflict mineral (gold, tin, tantalum and tungsten are).
I could be missing Apple's mention of the current status so please do link the source. In any event it's obvious Apple does understand the Congo problem coupled with Apple's need for a reliable and extensive source of cobalt for their products and has at least considered some solutions.
So if I buy a new tungsten light bulb then I might committed a crime against humanity!?
It's terrible that the people who drive the demand for cobalt and use the devices that are made with it can hypocritically post their outrage here in this forum.
No, not like kids on family run farms. Holy shit man...
I agree. Anyone equating family businesses to families sending their kids off to mines and factories are not seeing the forest for the trees. Family farms are invaluable opportunities for children and youth to learn important skills and develop good working habits.
I don't hold Apple responsible in this case, but I am surprised that this has come up again after 3 years. Surely there is more information on this. Apple has very publicly stated that they hold their supply chains to very high standards, which I believe! There must be some real game-playing by the suppliers to hide the original source of the materials if Apple can't trace it back.
Lithium and Cobalt come from various sources around the world, I have no idea if all these mines regions use the most ethical methods, but Congo is not the only source.
Grant it Congo is number 1 for Cobalt, but there is lots of other sources. China is the largest investor in the Congo for mining keep this in mind.
There is no proof Apple or any of these company actually source out of the Congo. The problem is many time the minerals from many regions get combined during the entire supply chain process. Even if Apple required their supplier not to use Congo sources minerals it becomes very hard to isolate the Congo materials. One way Apple and many companies use to monitor if Congo minerals show up in their supply chain is to test material for radio isotopes since each region of the world have specific isotopes in their minerals. But if any supply chain at any time had Congo minerals or neighboring countries in there supply, it will contaminate the entire supply chain's isotopes. Using these markers is only good if the supply chain never had Congo minerals.
They are suing Apple since it get clicks and create outrage in the outrage culture. Since they would have to prove Apple supply chain specifically sources out of the Congo. I personally suspect Apple and other US companies requires its supply chain not to specifically source out the Congo due to the Current US required on the Conflict Mineral reports requirements each year. We know that Apple has been focused on responsible sourcing for many years even before the Conflict Mineral requirement came in 4 yrs ago.
“Outrage culture”...? It’s all just the same to you? Child labor, sexual assault, slave wages, racism... It’s all just an undesirable irritation to you? We should all just allow every unethical and abusive act to go on and on, so that there’s none of this bothersome outrage for you to know about?
I’ve heard it said that “If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention”.
I’ll offer a variation: “If you’re not outraged, it’s because you’re too comfortable with your own unrecognized privilege, or you’re just plain callous.”
Then there’s this one: “All that is needed for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing.”
I’ll offer up this variation: “Nothing bad gets fixed when people are bullied into silence by contentment culture”.
You're outrage because you are just finding out about this, because you did not have your eyes open all along. Stop being outrage, do something about it...
A year ago I walked in to a plant and definitely saw people under 18 working they were 14 to be exactly. I questioned it and was informed the parents signed the work wavier which is required by state law. These kids was working full time and was no longer in school since the parent pulled the kids out of school after completing 8th grade which again is allowed under US & State law, and these kids entire pay check goes to the parents. So do you force this company not to hire 14 yrs old and take the means away from these families to earn enough money or do you make sure the company does not take advantage of the kids. This company was following the laws.
Then as a responsible adult YOU should take action.
If what you say is true then the factory was acting illegally and you're letting them get by it. Period.
Working full-time in a factory at the age of 14 is illegal in every US State, no question. So I'll suggest that what you are claiming did not happen, at best you were mistaken, and if not you are being complicit with your silence. Robbing children of an education thus almost ensuring that the poverty cycle will continue in return for a pittance minimum wage paycheck now is not acceptable. https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youthlabor/agerequirements
Here is problem, this was in the Amish community and they work in local business at the age of 14 as I pointed out they are allow since the Amish communities are not subject to all Federal laws. The Amish who work for themselves also do not pay SS or Medicare either they are exempted since they take care of their own and do not rely on any government assistance. There is a supreme court case on this. https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/rulings/oasi/45/SSR82-44-oasi-45.html
This is my point, you have people like yourself who think they understand the laws and do not know about all the exceptions. My son had his own business at 14, we set up an LLC for the business and he cleaned family own businesses. Guess what the government never said a thing about him being 14 filing his taxes and paying SS and Medicare, he also hired his friends to work for him as well. My son's roommate in college had his own business since he was 12 and was generating couple Million in revenue while in college. The government does not care if kids work if they are paying their taxes.
BTW, The Amish have more money than most American's in the middle class, most all of them pay cash for their homes or land they buy, they do not borrow money. They may not be educated past the 8th grade but they understand business and money better than most people in this country.
To your point, I did my due diligence and found out no laws were being broken in the Amish community where these people were working. They were not working full time I believe they were working 20 to 32 hours at most. Just because you think it is wrong in one places does not make it wrong in other places. Standards are subject to the community for which you are in. This is why when American's travel outside the US you hear about the ugly American this is because Americans judge others on US standards not the local standard they are visiting. You may think that Amish making their kids work at 14 and not completing school is wrong, but it is allowed and they would argue they have better life than most even not using electricity.
I have been to factories outside the US and seen younger people working and when asked, the factory will show you documents saying the person is 18 or older, in some cases you know they are fake documents but it hard to prove. When you talk to these people they tell you they are supporting their families and such so you know exactly what is going on. Who are we to say this individual can not work to help the family.
Not sure what's sad about it. My first job was when I was 14. I learned the value of money and hard work.
Were you working in a mine for pennies? Let's not be ridiculous. I worked as a kid doing baby-sitting, projecting 16mm movies, working in an ice-cream/burger concession, delivering orders for a deli, drying prints for my father's photography business, working in a day-camp and several other things, but there is no way I would equate any of those things to working in a mine. Essentially, these kids are slaves. Or are you one of those people who think that African-American slaves didn't have it so bad because they lived in warm climates and got room and board.
The time has well passed for companies to continue ignoring the source of their products and turning a blind eye to the inexplicable use of children and people in 3rd world countries to mine products like cobalt and other minerals that are potentially poisonous with this type of mining practice..especially to children. Billion dollar companies with plenty of resources need to step up to the plate and not rely on the middle class taxpayers or their stockholders to clean up after them. Be responsible for your sourcing. There is just no excuse anymore. Why would you even allow the potential exposure of your company to be attacked by unscrupulous attorneys looking to make millions. We all know how it works anymore.. just think if those millions paid to attorneys were spent preempting the problem instead.. by working with local organizations, investing in better facilities and creating and ENFORCING better policies. It seems you can make teams of creative think tanks for the next best product. How about creative investing in more humane local practices which helps create the technology. Transparent entry, sustainability and exit plans with local government and watchdog groups working as small teams for each local source would go a long way. Make a new years resolution for a better world, your stock price will follow.
Child labor in the Congo? Great! Those kids would likely be starving and dying otherwise. Kids used to work in factories in the US in the Great Depression and at the start of the Industrial Age. That’s how economies develop.
9to5Mac has a discussion thread/poll going asking the question what political position or line would Apple have to cross to make you stop buying their products.
and the abuse roared that day i deleted my account and stopped following them. this place seems more peaceful, ahhhh!
Comments
I agree. Anyone equating family businesses to families sending their kids off to mines and factories are not seeing the forest for the trees. Family farms are invaluable opportunities for children and youth to learn important skills and develop good working habits.
I don't hold Apple responsible in this case, but I am surprised that this has come up again after 3 years. Surely there is more information on this. Apple has very publicly stated that they hold their supply chains to very high standards, which I believe! There must be some real game-playing by the suppliers to hide the original source of the materials if Apple can't trace it back.
This is my point, you have people like yourself who think they understand the laws and do not know about all the exceptions. My son had his own business at 14, we set up an LLC for the business and he cleaned family own businesses. Guess what the government never said a thing about him being 14 filing his taxes and paying SS and Medicare, he also hired his friends to work for him as well. My son's roommate in college had his own business since he was 12 and was generating couple Million in revenue while in college. The government does not care if kids work if they are paying their taxes.
BTW, The Amish have more money than most American's in the middle class, most all of them pay cash for their homes or land they buy, they do not borrow money. They may not be educated past the 8th grade but they understand business and money better than most people in this country.
To your point, I did my due diligence and found out no laws were being broken in the Amish community where these people were working. They were not working full time I believe they were working 20 to 32 hours at most. Just because you think it is wrong in one places does not make it wrong in other places. Standards are subject to the community for which you are in. This is why when American's travel outside the US you hear about the ugly American this is because Americans judge others on US standards not the local standard they are visiting. You may think that Amish making their kids work at 14 and not completing school is wrong, but it is allowed and they would argue they have better life than most even not using electricity.
I have been to factories outside the US and seen younger people working and when asked, the factory will show you documents saying the person is 18 or older, in some cases you know they are fake documents but it hard to prove. When you talk to these people they tell you they are supporting their families and such so you know exactly what is going on. Who are we to say this individual can not work to help the family.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrodesulfurization
(Sorry Robert Lewellyn, I don't think it actually stays in the gasoline).
Can read the thread easier here. Thread is mostly about Tesla, but includes important things relevant to all fo the companies
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1206896495993278464.html
this place seems more peaceful, ahhhh!