Mac Pro demonstrates 'masterclass in repairability' in teardown

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  • Reply 21 of 54
    zimmiezimmie Posts: 651member
    wizard69 said:
    zimmie said:
    lkrupp said:
    and the big question in my mind, is the CPU replaceable, or does the motherboard firmware tie it to a specific clock rate etc?
    That question is answered in the hands on review on AI in the comments. The answer is yes. Keep in mind, though, the market this machine is targeted at doesn’t swap out CPUs or much else either. Same goes for RAM. They buy this machine configured the way they want for the task at hand. A movie studio doesn’t have time to fiddle with the hardware. Neither does a number crunching lab. Stop thinking of this machine as a consumer, tinkerer, “prosumer” machine that enthusiasts platywith. It’s not anything of the sort. 
    Sure, but upgradable CPUs will matter for the second-hand market in five or six years. It's nice to know they can be upgraded when they are no longer doing the job they were originally hired to do.
    Actually this is pretty misinformed!   All of these HEDT machine are impacted by memory bandwidth and as such in 5 years whole new architectures to address that will be online.  One shouldn’t expect higher performance  chips that far into the future.  In fact AMDs low end socket gets phased out in 2020 and thread ripper is dramatically different for a desktop chip.  

    It is just a really hard time to be justifying a purchase on upgrade capability 5 years down the road.   Maybe in a year or two when the new architectures come online but that isn’t a certainty.  
    Again, second-hand market. This is not relevant for the initial purchaser (except for people who want to be able to handle even CPU faults without needing to wait for a service appointment). It is relevant for the second-hand market, because after five or six years, when these start being resold, second-hand buyers will be able to replace the processor on their second-hand Mac Pro with another Xeon W which you could buy today, but for thousands of dollars less.

    So if the original purchaser got the 8-core model, the second purchaser will be able to swap in a 24-core or 28-core processor if they can find one (like, say, from some other decommissioned workstation).
    avon b7dysamoriamattinozcornchipwatto_cobra
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  • Reply 22 of 54
    normmnormm Posts: 653member
    avon b7 said:
    This is definitely a step in the right direction. Now they need to give the same thinking to other Macs. It can be done.
    Not everything that can be done should be done.

    Engineering is about tradeoffs.  For example, putting all chips in sockets makes them replaceable and perhaps upgradeable, but dramatically reduces reliability, because connectors are so much less reliable than soldered joints.  Adding connectors also increases size and weight, which is not the right tradeoff if the goal is lightness and compactness.  Most of the decisions made in mobile devices that make them hard to fix are not made out of perversity, but to make them better at being mobile. Eventually you put everything into one super-small and super-light chip, and iFixit has nothing to repair.

    edited December 2019
    macpluspluspscooter63tmaywatto_cobra
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  • Reply 23 of 54
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    The SSD issue is a big deal for anyone who needs their data IMMEDIATELY when a machine goes down. People can be aggressive about backups and use external or network storage, but when a workstation is in use, and suffers a failure, the quickest path back to productivity is to move the storage device from the bad machine to a new machine. No reinstalling, very little waiting. This is why studios and whatnot have their own IT departments, and this security will directly obstruct their jobs. At the very least, it should be an optional level of security.
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  • Reply 24 of 54
    thttht Posts: 6,019member
    On come on Apple, you go through all the trouble of having locks, switches, slots, sockets and pogo connectors for literally every component except for the speaker, which needs a wire! I am disappoint. ;)

    If they make a 2 socket Xeon-SP MPX module, they win. I don’t know why anyone would need to be able install CPU blades on their desktop, who knows, but it would make for 5 sockets in the computer, but that’s 140 cores on your desktop you can run CFD on. It’ll be a space heater, but it’s 140 cores on your desktop!

    cornchipwatto_cobra
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  • Reply 25 of 54
    zimmiezimmie Posts: 651member

    All seems looks great excpt I would have deducted 3 full stars for the SSD and T2 situation. Being able to exchange SSDs is important. The T2 shackles are utter nonsense - fine for newbies who need to be protected from malware but for the Mac Pro line and most of their users this is only a nuisance.
    To have security is good as long as it does not interfere with legitimate customizations. This one goes overboard and probably serves ulterior motives that I don't even want to know about.
    So use the internal SSD for the OS, then throw an NVMe drive in it for everything else.

    Or, for that matter, don't use the internal drive at all, and use an NVMe drive for everything. A 1.5 TB Optane 905p is right around $2300, and it's the fastest SSD money can buy right now.

    Edited to add: I wonder if Apple supports PCI slot bifurcation. If so, you might be able to split one of the x16 slots into four x4 slots and install *four* 905p M.2 drives. You'd pay a bit more for the same capacity (the M.2 version is only available up to 380 GB), but you would have 16 lanes of PCIe to the storage instead of four.
    edited December 2019
    thtrandominternetpersoncornchipwatto_cobra
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  • Reply 26 of 54
    DRB said:
    Avon B7. I agree. Time will tell. the only issue is that their Laptops are thin and it's difficult to make them easy to upgrade and maintain their thinness. Some iMacs can have user upgradeable RAM, some can't. The issue is over the T2 chips with SSDs because their SSD's are specially tied to the T2 chip and it's for security purposes mainly. Do you want someone being able to take your SSD's out and hack into them? That's why they have to be tied to the T2 chip, it's to prevent hacking. It's just one of those situations where Apple's putting security as a priority over upgradeability since I don't think third party SSD's will work with theT2 chip, unless you know otherwise..
    At the same time if your logic board is toasted (in MBP for example) your SSD/data is at the mercy of data recovery companies. I don’t think Apple will even touch it.
    watto_cobra
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  • Reply 27 of 54
    hexclockhexclock Posts: 1,357member
    zimmie said:

    All seems looks great excpt I would have deducted 3 full stars for the SSD and T2 situation. Being able to exchange SSDs is important. The T2 shackles are utter nonsense - fine for newbies who need to be protected from malware but for the Mac Pro line and most of their users this is only a nuisance.
    To have security is good as long as it does not interfere with legitimate customizations. This one goes overboard and probably serves ulterior motives that I don't even want to know about.
    So use the internal SSD for the OS, then throw an NVMe drive in it for everything else.

    If I were using it for a Logic, Pro Tools, or Abelton rig, that’s exactly what I would do. 

    watto_cobra
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  • Reply 28 of 54
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,327member
    normm said:
    avon b7 said:
    This is definitely a step in the right direction. Now they need to give the same thinking to other Macs. It can be done.
    Everything in engineering is a tradeoff.  For example, putting all chips in sockets makes them replaceable and perhaps upgradeable, but dramatically reduces reliability, because connectors are so much less reliable than soldered joints.  Adding connectors also increases size and weight, which is not the right tradeoff if the goal is lightness and compactness.  Most of the decisions made in mobile devices that make them hard to fix are not made out of perversity, but to make them better at being mobile. Eventually you put everything into one super-small and super-light chip, and iFixit has nothing to repair.

    Too many past Apple decisions have involved trade-offs that weren't really necessary in the first place.

    That is how we ended up with laptop components in desktop machines.

    Like saying "this is the design. Now engineer everything to fit inside it".

    The socket vs soldered issue really doesn't hold much water when one of the most common failures of iMacs for example was failed graphics cards which slow cooked themselves to death, accumulated dust and are extremely inaccessible. 

    While trade-offs will always exist some decisions were taken because things like accessibility were never on the cards from the outset. That is why you had to remove the protective glass, display and other components on my last iMac, just to get at the hard drive.

    Now, SSDs are soldered onto laptops and if one fails you have to take the whole machine in.

    On laptops, the top case, keyboard and battery are all unnecessarily dependent on each other (that's without getting into the butterfly debate). Once again, certain considerations simply weren't on the table from the get go.

    I'd take a socketed option over any soldered/glued on option on a Mac - every time. Especially as I've not had a single issue with socketed components. Not even had to re-seat RAM. On the other hand just about every single Apple laptop battery I've had has swollen and required replacing.

    At the end of the day, it would be nice to have choice but that is denied us. 

    This Mac Pro could exist in a far lower cost version with all the upgradeability but the only reason it doesn't exist is because Apple doesn't want it to exist.

    Given the choice, many users would opt for such a machine but that would take a bite out of the iMac - and that's why it doesn't exist.

    I'd love for Tim to call my bluff and get one onto the market and let the market (us) decide.




    muthuk_vanalingam
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  • Reply 29 of 54
    avon b7 said:
    normm said:
    avon b7 said:
    This is definitely a step in the right direction. Now they need to give the same thinking to other Macs. It can be done.
    Everything in engineering is a tradeoff.  For example, putting all chips in sockets makes them replaceable and perhaps upgradeable, but dramatically reduces reliability, because connectors are so much less reliable than soldered joints.  Adding connectors also increases size and weight, which is not the right tradeoff if the goal is lightness and compactness.  Most of the decisions made in mobile devices that make them hard to fix are not made out of perversity, but to make them better at being mobile. Eventually you put everything into one super-small and super-light chip, and iFixit has nothing to repair.

    At the end of the day, it would be nice to have choice but that is denied us. 

    This Mac Pro could exist in a far lower cost version with all the upgradeability but the only reason it doesn't exist is because Apple doesn't want it to exist.

    Given the choice, many users would opt for such a machine but that would take a bite out of the iMac - and that's why it doesn't exist.
    Opinion masquerading as fact. Apple execs have said over and over that they don't fear cannibalizing their own products, and they've proven it more than once, yet some of you still like to make conspiracy claims. 

    Of course they could build a mid-range tower, who on earth believes otherwise? But that isn't this. This is a high-end workstation. Maybe they'll build a mid-range tower, maybe they won't. Not relevant at all to what the new MP is. 

    You do have choice. The market has plenty of machines to chose from. So, repeat after me: "I...am not...a victim."
    thtRayz2016JWSCpscooter63tmaywatto_cobra
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  • Reply 30 of 54
    avon b7 said:
    normm said:
    avon b7 said:
    This is definitely a step in the right direction. Now they need to give the same thinking to other Macs. It can be done.
    Everything in engineering is a tradeoff.  For example, putting all chips in sockets makes them replaceable and perhaps upgradeable, but dramatically reduces reliability, because connectors are so much less reliable than soldered joints.  Adding connectors also increases size and weight, which is not the right tradeoff if the goal is lightness and compactness.  Most of the decisions made in mobile devices that make them hard to fix are not made out of perversity, but to make them better at being mobile. Eventually you put everything into one super-small and super-light chip, and iFixit has nothing to repair.

    At the end of the day, it would be nice to have choice but that is denied us. 

    This Mac Pro could exist in a far lower cost version with all the upgradeability but the only reason it doesn't exist is because Apple doesn't want it to exist.

    Given the choice, many users would opt for such a machine but that would take a bite out of the iMac - and that's why it doesn't exist.
    Opinion masquerading as fact. Apple execs have said over and over that they don't fear cannibalizing their own products, and they've proven it more than once, yet some of you still like to make conspiracy claims. 

    Of course they could build a mid-range tower, who on earth believes otherwise? But that isn't this. This is a high-end workstation. Maybe they'll build a mid-range tower, maybe they won't. Not relevant at all to what the new MP is. 

    You do have choice. The market has plenty of machines to chose from. So, repeat after me: "I...am not...a victim."
    "Of course they could build a mid-range tower, who on earth believes otherwise? But that isn't this. This is a high-end workstation. Maybe they'll build a mid-range tower, maybe they won't. Not relevant at all to what the new MP is. "

    This is true.  Unless one has first-hand knowledge of Apple's desktop road, one can't make the claim that Apple doesn't want a mid-range tower.  Maybe this Mac Pro is just the first salvo.
    watto_cobra
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  • Reply 31 of 54
    zimmie said:

    All seems looks great excpt I would have deducted 3 full stars for the SSD and T2 situation. Being able to exchange SSDs is important. The T2 shackles are utter nonsense - fine for newbies who need to be protected from malware but for the Mac Pro line and most of their users this is only a nuisance.
    To have security is good as long as it does not interfere with legitimate customizations. This one goes overboard and probably serves ulterior motives that I don't even want to know about.
    So use the internal SSD for the OS, then throw an NVMe drive in it for everything else.

    Or, for that matter, don't use the internal drive at all, and use an NVMe drive for everything. A 1.5 TB Optane 905p is right around $2300, and it's the fastest SSD money can buy right now.

    Edited to add: I wonder if Apple supports PCI slot bifurcation. If so, you might be able to split one of the x16 slots into four x4 slots and install *four* 905p M.2 drives. You'd pay a bit more for the same capacity (the M.2 version is only available up to 380 GB), but you would have 16 lanes of PCIe to the storage instead of four.
    Exactly.  In the iFixIt photo they show a 256GB Apple SSD.  That's a trivial amount of storage for "pro" workflows.  The custom internal SSD simply isn't designed/intended to be where users store their "data."  
    watto_cobra
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  • Reply 32 of 54
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 6,179member
    avon b7 said:
    This is definitely a step in the right direction. Now they need to give the same thinking to other Macs. It can be done.
    Here we go again... beating a dead horse.

    The iMac Pro is engineered (and priced) for this kind of expandability.

    99.999999% of iMac or MacBook buyers will never open their system after purchase.  Never.  However, if/when the time comes to even consider that, most folks will not upgrade a years-old piece of tech when far faster/superior models are available.  I myself gladly accept the efficiency, design, and thinness of Apple's consumer-level machines.  I do not want to pay extra for engineering (i.e. expansion ability) that I will never use.

    So give it a rest.  This subject has died long ago.
    Rayz2016JWSCmacpluspluspscooter63tmaywatto_cobrajony0normm
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  • Reply 33 of 54
    dysamoria said:
    The SSD issue is a big deal for anyone who needs their data IMMEDIATELY when a machine goes down. 
    This is a pretty good point. I couldn’t count the number of times I've had some kind of mechanical failure, popped out the long term storage, inserted into another and been back in business within minutes.

    In fact, Macs used to excel at this because you could take a storage device — even a standardized SSD — pop it into a USB enclosure, and boot using Target Disc. Windows still doesn’t have anything like this.
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  • Reply 34 of 54
    davgreg said:

    lkrupp said:
    . Keep in mind, though, the market this machine is targeted at doesn’t swap out CPUs or much else either. Same goes for RAM. They buy this machine configured the way they want for the task at hand. A movie studio doesn’t have time to fiddle with the hardware. Neither does a number crunching lab. Stop thinking of this machine as a consumer, tinkerer, “prosumer” machine that enthusiasts play with. It’s not anything of the sort. 
    Sometimes the swap out is to keep going when a part goes stupid- not everyone is a “tinkerer”.

    When my Mac Pro power supply went south I was easily and quickly able to replace it and put it back in service. If a CPU went down, OWC can ship you a CPU that you can swap out in a couple of minutes without tools.

    I can see the creative, medical or engineering markets seeing value in that. Time is money. I work in Medical Imaging where workstation grade machines are tools of the trade, so this is not speculation.

    As top Pro vs Prosumer it is a Pro Spec machine. I will be buying one because I want a Mac that can be repaired easily, maintained easily, internally expanded uses a discrete monitor and has the power to last the better part of a decade as a useful machine. I have the money and will order one after I have a chance to see/inspect one in the flesh. As a Veteran I get 10% off from Apple and if I use an Apple Card I can get 6% through the holiday season- that is a nice discount.

    I can finally retire the old Mac Pro that has been kept around for heavy lifting. The  i7 Mac Mini on my desktop can go to backup/standby duty.
    yeah - that commenter’s condescending tone was just stupid.

    for example you can buy a 28 core Xeon W for $4,500AUD VS $12,800.

    ram for leas than 1/2 the price etc

    in the rental market do you wanna make sure you get your bang for your buck when you’re renting the unit at $110,000 for the Mac pro +2 monitors be able to save some money is not insignficant.

    Being able to buy a unit secondhand in the future and upgrade it to something useful will be very important.
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  • Reply 35 of 54
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 2,681member
    zimmie said:
    wizard69 said:
    zimmie said:
    lkrupp said:
    and the big question in my mind, is the CPU replaceable, or does the motherboard firmware tie it to a specific clock rate etc?
    That question is answered in the hands on review on AI in the comments. The answer is yes. Keep in mind, though, the market this machine is targeted at doesn’t swap out CPUs or much else either. Same goes for RAM. They buy this machine configured the way they want for the task at hand. A movie studio doesn’t have time to fiddle with the hardware. Neither does a number crunching lab. Stop thinking of this machine as a consumer, tinkerer, “prosumer” machine that enthusiasts platywith. It’s not anything of the sort. 
    Sure, but upgradable CPUs will matter for the second-hand market in five or six years. It's nice to know they can be upgraded when they are no longer doing the job they were originally hired to do.
    Actually this is pretty misinformed!   All of these HEDT machine are impacted by memory bandwidth and as such in 5 years whole new architectures to address that will be online.  One shouldn’t expect higher performance  chips that far into the future.  In fact AMDs low end socket gets phased out in 2020 and thread ripper is dramatically different for a desktop chip.  

    It is just a really hard time to be justifying a purchase on upgrade capability 5 years down the road.   Maybe in a year or two when the new architectures come online but that isn’t a certainty.  
    Again, second-hand market. This is not relevant for the initial purchaser (except for people who want to be able to handle even CPU faults without needing to wait for a service appointment). It is relevant for the second-hand market, because after five or six years, when these start being resold, second-hand buyers will be able to replace the processor on their second-hand Mac Pro with another Xeon W which you could buy today, but for thousands of dollars less.

    So if the original purchaser got the 8-core model, the second purchaser will be able to swap in a 24-core or 28-core processor if they can find one (like, say, from some other decommissioned workstation).

    I would think Apple to keep high end customers happy and buying updgrade modules for these machines they would want some from of buy-back recycling scheme for parts. Would seem like Apple could have refurb'd franken MacPro's to service the lower end in a couple of years.
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  • Reply 36 of 54
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,398member
    avon b7 said:
    This is definitely a step in the right direction. Now they need to give the same thinking to other Macs. It can be done.
    Nope. It can't be done, and it will never happen. The Mac Pro is unlike any other Apple product out there, and thinking the same principles should apply across the board is ridiculous. It can't be done, without severely compromising size/weight/reliability/thickness/etc. And there's no motivation to do it, because the people demanding upgradeability in those machines is an insanely small percentage. 

    pscooter63tmay
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  • Reply 37 of 54
    GeorgeBMacgeorgebmac Posts: 11,421member
    zimmie said:
    lkrupp said:
    and the big question in my mind, is the CPU replaceable, or does the motherboard firmware tie it to a specific clock rate etc?
    That question is answered in the hands on review on AI in the comments. The answer is yes. Keep in mind, though, the market this machine is targeted at doesn’t swap out CPUs or much else either. Same goes for RAM. They buy this machine configured the way they want for the task at hand. A movie studio doesn’t have time to fiddle with the hardware. Neither does a number crunching lab. Stop thinking of this machine as a consumer, tinkerer, “prosumer” machine that enthusiasts platywith. It’s not anything of the sort. 
    Sure, but upgradable CPUs will matter for the second-hand market in five or six years. It's nice to know they can be upgraded when they are no longer doing the job they were originally hired to do.

    Yeh, but my experience is that Intel changes sockets more often than I change my socks.   An upgradeable CPU is of limited use.
    canukstormthtrandominternetperson
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  • Reply 38 of 54
    GeorgeBMacgeorgebmac Posts: 11,421member
    avon b7 said:
    This is definitely a step in the right direction. Now they need to give the same thinking to other Macs. It can be done.

    Back in the 90's I bought a bunch of Compaq D530 desktops for my accounting department and they could be assembled / disassembled just as easily and completely as this one.
    The Lenovo Thinkpad T410 (from 2010) I'm typing on right now is similar -- I can tear it down all the way to the motherboard I've replaced the battery, memory and harddrive and soon I will be applying some new thermal grease to the CPU.

    This is not new stuff.   It's the way it should be -- unless there is a reason not to .

    I get the MacBook Air concept and that provides definite advantages in portability.  But Apple needs to provide more machine like this that can be torn down, repaired and upgraded when and if necessary.  (Not every laptop has to be a MacBook Air lookalike.

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  • Reply 39 of 54
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,380member
    dysamoria said:
    The SSD issue is a big deal for anyone who needs their data IMMEDIATELY when a machine goes down. People can be aggressive about backups and use external or network storage, but when a workstation is in use, and suffers a failure, the quickest path back to productivity is to move the storage device from the bad machine to a new machine. No reinstalling, very little waiting. This is why studios and whatnot have their own IT departments, and this security will directly obstruct their jobs. At the very least, it should be an optional level of security.
    The SSD in question is the internal drive, I don't believe Apple's T2 security chip has any ability to secure external storage devices. I know the internal SSD has to be real fast but I also wonder how many production systems in a large organization actually leave their corporate data on individual computers, instead requiring most data to be stored on secure network servers and RAID systems. Thunderbolt 3 attached drives can be extremely fast so maybe in your case you use an attached drive (like OWC's ThunderBlade, max speed of 2800MB/s up to 8TB) for your content creation and only use the internal drive for OS and applications and non critical projects. 

    From Apple's Mac Pro page:

    A Secure Enclave coprocessor provides the foundation for encrypted storage and secure boot capabilities. So you can worry less about protecting your work, code, and intellectual property. And focus more on doing your best thinking.

    What's going on is the disk encryption is being handled by the T2 coprocessor with/without (not sure which one) user intervention setting the password to create the encryption certificates. Apple is trying its best to protect the data on a consumer's computer yet too many people don't seem to want this feature but the first time their data is stolen, e.g., your company's product you just finished, they complain to Apple about not being protected. Do you want your company's data protected from theft or not? 

    --
    When I was working to protect my company's data on laptops, I would have loved to have had this feature. Our computers were always subjected to data theft when they left our site. We went so far as photographing the screws holding the laptops together before these computers left our site then checking them again when they came back to make sure the laptop wasn't tampered with. 
    edited December 2019
    tmayrandominternetperson
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  • Reply 40 of 54
    lkrupp said:
    and the big question in my mind, is the CPU replaceable, or does the motherboard firmware tie it to a specific clock rate etc?
    That question is answered in the hands on review on AI in the comments. The answer is yes. Keep in mind, though, the market this machine is targeted at doesn’t swap out CPUs or much else either. Same goes for RAM. They buy this machine configured the way they want for the task at hand. A movie studio doesn’t have time to fiddle with the hardware. Neither does a number crunching lab. Stop thinking of this machine as a consumer, tinkerer, “prosumer” machine that enthusiasts platywith. It’s not anything of the sort. 
    I think I could see someone in the market for a topped out 5k iMac who might buy a near base model MacPro and then grow it over time. Hard to see a machine like this becoming obsolete in less than 10-years when I'm still seeing 1st generation 2006 MacPro towers still being upgraded and used with the latest OS.
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