Goldman Sachs rankles at Apple Card's 'created by Apple, not a bank' line

Posted:
in General Discussion
The investment bank Goldman Sachs has reminded financial analysts that it developed and is making all the decisions about Apple Card.

Apple's advertising does prominently feature Goldman Sachs, just not quite at the top of the screen
Apple's advertising does prominently feature Goldman Sachs, just not quite at the top of the screen


It's no secret that multinational financial business Goldman Sachs is the bank behind Apple Card, but the company wants to be clear that it's in charge. In a session with analysts during its legally-required financial earnings call, Goldman Sachs's Chief Financial Officer Stephen Scherr alluded to Apple's branding and advertising.

"I want to be really clear on this," Scherr told analyst Gerard Cassidy from RBC, "notwithstanding whoever lays claim to the creation of the card. There's only one institution that's making underwriting decisions, and that's Goldman Sachs."

"We have set targets and goals and objectives along with Apple as a good partner would," he continued, "and Apple is completely in the know as to sort of how we are going about these underwriting decisions."

"But the ultimate decision sits with us and so we calibrate, manage our risk and collections in the context of that. And so I think I just want to be really clear about that, it is the bank that renders underwriting decisions in that regard," he concluded.

It's known that Goldman Sachs has invested heavily on developing Apple Card -- and spends $350 for every signup -- but according to Business Insider, the company also delayed many other projects as it reassigned its engineers to the project.

The company's policies for determining credit limits has come under attack from politicians.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 51
    Give me a break. Goldman may be making the “financial” aspect decision regarding the Apple Card. The app design, user interface, intuitive user experience and creative aspect of the app, is all Apple.
    mwhiteFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 51
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    iOS_Guy80 said:
    Give me a break. Goldman may be making the “financial” aspect decision regarding the Apple Card. The app design, user interface, intuitive user experience and creative aspect of the app, is all Apple.
    Exactly.

    I imagine that Apple could have taken the idea to pretty much any credit card company.
    mwhiteStrangeDaysrandominternetpersonradarthekatFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 51
    seanjseanj Posts: 320member
    "The first thing you need to know about Goldman Sachs is that it's everywhereThe world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money."

    Matt Taibbi, Rolling Stone Magazine, 2009
    JaiOh81buckalecdysamoriaCarnageFileMakerFellerwatto_cobrabadmonk
  • Reply 4 of 51
    red oakred oak Posts: 1,104member
    Yes, Goldman is the underwriter.  They are effectively the backend processor and determine credit limits and (likely) handle customer service issues - all the back office aspects of the card.  It is Apple's brand, customer and user experience though.   I bet Apple gets a MUCH HIGHER % of the revenue than Goldman.   Let's see Goldman try to launch a card on its own.   It would be an epic failure.   But Apple could swap Goldman out anytime with a number of different providers in 3 months 

    Also, this $350 estimated acquisition cost for each Apple Card user came from the idiot analyst at Nomura who has had a $230 price target on Apple until today.  I bet the vast majority of signups are generated by people simply opening their Wallet app  (aka. almost "free" customer acquisition)


    tokoloshStrangeDaysjony0radarthekatFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 51
    iOS_Guy80 said:
    Give me a break. Goldman may be making the “financial” aspect decision regarding the Apple Card. The app design, user interface, intuitive user experience and creative aspect of the app, is all Apple.
    I think you may be focusing on the wrong end of the stick.  Goldman is where the pointy end lies... in your finances. Their emphasis on the financial aspects of the card, although understandable since they are a financial institution, should make you look closely at the pointy end more than the other end.  You know, just to make sure they aren't close to sticking it in your neck.  The app design, user interface, intuitive user experience, and creatives aspects of the app won't mean diddly if Goldman is unhappy about the financial aspects of the card.  They control that.  Pretty sure they have profit goals for that card.  Pretty sure they're going to make sure they hit them.  To be fair, they may hit their profit goals and be beneficial to the customer at the same time.  But if they can't do both, they're sure to do one of 'em.
    chemengin1GeorgeBMacgatorguymuthuk_vanalingamdysamoriaCarnageFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 6 of 51
    macguimacgui Posts: 2,419member
    The quotes in this article do make it clear that it's G-S handling the underwriting and financial operation of the card, but they don't speak to G-S actually creating the card. They probably had a bigger hand in the making recommendations than ATT did with the iPhone. That may not be saying a lot.

    Apple deserves credit, I don't know how much but not all of it. A lot had to be done on the financial side as well. But it might be good marketing tactics to say "Created by Apple, not a bank' given G-S' history. "Let us, G-S, into your account. What could possibly go wrong" isn't much of an add campaign.

    On the plus side, the time required using my bank's bill pay to get an Apple Card payment posted is down to 4 days instead of 8. It's probably not as fast as using the app. I'm picky about who debit my account and right now that's nobody.
  • Reply 7 of 51
    macguimacgui Posts: 2,419member
    Rayz2016 said:
    I imagine that Apple could have taken the idea to pretty much any credit card company.
    I don't believe that at all. Just as ATT was the only company to cut a deal with Apple on the iPhone, I think the same applied to G-S. If Apple could have taken the concept to anybody, to build it Apple's way, they wouldn't have picked G-S. That would have avoided all the complaints about dancing with the Devil.
    Carnage
  • Reply 8 of 51
    It is a team effort, no doubt.

    HOWEVER,

    Who here (that has an Apple card) would NOT have an Apple card if Apple had not partnered with GS? I really, really doubt anyone would have cared unless Apple partnered with some soulless bank known for scammy behavior.

    Hmm. 
    mwhiteFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 51
    It’s just marketing. Apple Card isn’t different than other cards but of course Apple is going to market it as if it is.
    chemengin1christophb
  • Reply 10 of 51
    macguimacgui Posts: 2,419member
    The company's policies for determining credit limits has come under attack from politicians.
    That bit makes me laugh and disgusted at the same time. A guy screams sexism and without any information or substantiation other than a differing lines of credit issued, out come the torches and pitchforks. Based on an unverified claim of 'they found out my wife was a woman and based on her gender, gave her a lower limit'. That's all it took.

    Nobody checks its merit and Apple gets the blame. G-S didn't help when they immediately boosted the guy's wife's credit limit. People called that an admission of guilt.

    Gov't officials, here to help, couldn't resist the rush to hitch their teams to the MeToo bandwagon and call for an 'immediate' investigation of Apple and G-S.

    I'd like to have seen G-S reply with 'We've examined the credit history of both Mr. and Mrs. Important Developer and are ready and willing to go on record for the as to why she got a lower credit limit. Just give us the word, Mr. Important Dev. Hint: nothing in our code and algorithms says reduce females' credit limit by 40%' and 'Ignore Woz's blathering'. The Govt has yet to tell us that Apple and G-S were caught lowering the glass sealing.
    radarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 51
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 4,003member
    Seriously? They should recognize marketing when they see it and be happy that Apple is trying to appeal to a demographic that they can't appeal to.
    pscooter63radarthekatFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 51
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,822member
    Rayz2016 said:
    iOS_Guy80 said:
    Give me a break. Goldman may be making the “financial” aspect decision regarding the Apple Card. The app design, user interface, intuitive user experience and creative aspect of the app, is all Apple.
    Exactly.

    I imagine that Apple could have taken the idea to pretty much any credit card company.
    I'd agree.  Perhaps Apple should ask Goldman if they'd prefer Apple shopped a few other Banks?  Then again maybe Apple could consider being a 'Bank' themselves?  Perhaps they have enough money?
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 51
    larryjwlarryjw Posts: 1,036member
    Apple contracted with GS and vice versa because GS didn't have a consumer credit card system and Apple wanted one. Both companies were not burdened with legacy systems and could look anew at developing a system with unique aspects. 

    Mentioned above as a comparison was Apple's partnering with AT&T for their iPhone. But, it wasn't AT&T -- it was Cingular. Unlike other providers, Cingular was willing to design and implement unique cellular features demanded by Apple. Before the Apple/Cingular, cellular providers controlled all the features of the cellular systems -- many capabilities of cell phones pre-iphone had features not supported by the phone companies -- I owned several such cell phones and they were all broken in some form or another by restrictions by the likes of Verizon, etc. 

    Because GS did not have a consumer credit card, GS had to develop a system on their end from scratch which supported Apple's concepts. I don't think Apple had a lot of choices of national banks who could or would underwrite the Apple credit card and develop systems to support it. My guess is banks with legacy systems are running their credit card systems on 50 year old Cobol programs -- they can't change. 
    pscooter63radarthekatdysamoria
  • Reply 14 of 51
    spice-boyspice-boy Posts: 1,450member
    And a fine mess you've made of it Goldman Sachs.
  • Reply 15 of 51
    knowitallknowitall Posts: 1,648member
    Ah, so its an success, now they claim it.
    Otherwise Apple would get all the ‘credits’.
    Absolute assholes, Apple should get rid of them as soon as possible and start Apple bank (you know for the common good, a green bank, helping others, having morals (that should be a first for a bank)).
    Apple bank would be a resounding succes, with honest people at the helm.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 51
    spice-boyspice-boy Posts: 1,450member
    macgui said:
    The company's policies for determining credit limits has come under attack from politicians.
    That bit makes me laugh and disgusted at the same time. A guy screams sexism and without any information or substantiation other than a differing lines of credit issued, out come the torches and pitchforks. Based on an unverified claim of 'they found out my wife was a woman and based on her gender, gave her a lower limit'. That's all it took.

    Nobody checks its merit and Apple gets the blame. G-S didn't help when they immediately boosted the guy's wife's credit limit. People called that an admission of guilt.

    Gov't officials, here to help, couldn't resist the rush to hitch their teams to the MeToo bandwagon and call for an 'immediate' investigation of Apple and G-S.

    I'd like to have seen G-S reply with 'We've examined the credit history of both Mr. and Mrs. Important Developer and are ready and willing to go on record for the as to why she got a lower credit limit. Just give us the word, Mr. Important Dev. Hint: nothing in our code and algorithms says reduce females' credit limit by 40%' and 'Ignore Woz's blathering'. The Govt has yet to tell us that Apple and G-S were caught lowering the glass sealing.
    My Chase credit card has a limit of $17,000, I was offered a credit limit of $2,500 from the Apple Card-Goldman Sachs. My first name is non-gender and when I correspond with strangers 9 out of 10 assume I am female. 

    I doubt you would believe that big institutions have bias in regards to gender or race because it has never happened to you therefore it does not exist and those that claim it does are liars. 
    muthuk_vanalingamOferdysamoria
  • Reply 17 of 51
    65026502 Posts: 382member
    red oak said:
    Yes, Goldman is the underwriter.  They are effectively the backend processor and determine credit limits and (likely) handle customer service issues - all the back office aspects of the card.  It is Apple's brand, customer and user experience though.   I bet Apple gets a MUCH HIGHER % of the revenue than Goldman.   Let's see Goldman try to launch a card on its own.   It would be an epic failure.   But Apple could swap Goldman out anytime with a number of different providers in 3 months 

    Also, this $350 estimated acquisition cost for each Apple Card user came from the idiot analyst at Nomura who has had a $230 price target on Apple until today.  I bet the vast majority of signups are generated by people simply opening their Wallet app  (aka. almost "free" customer acquisition)


    I'm sure Goldman takes all the risks and therefore gets a higher % of the revenue. Let's test it, stop paying on your credit card and see if the letter comes from Goldman or Apple.

    It would likely take longer than 3 months for Apple to switch the backend banker. It took Costco over a year to switch from Amex to Visa.
  • Reply 18 of 51
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,038member
    Rayz2016 said:
    iOS_Guy80 said:
    Give me a break. Goldman may be making the “financial” aspect decision regarding the Apple Card. The app design, user interface, intuitive user experience and creative aspect of the app, is all Apple.
    Exactly.

    I imagine that Apple could have taken the idea to pretty much any credit card company.
    I agree with Macgui. I don't they could've taken to a credit card company because it would've eaten their lunch to offer the benefits of the Apple Card at the detriment of their other offerings. I know some trolls around here like to claim that other cards are better because they have a higher payout (which paid cards) or even that Citi Double card with no annual fee that pays out 2%, but is worse for consumers and the Citi over the Apple Card because Citi gets to sit on that extra cash instead of doing daily payouts (only 1% is paid out at the end of the billing cycle and the other is paid out after you pay off your bill with the Citi Double card).

    I mostly agree with Macgui about Apple's decision to use AT&T, but I don't think AT&T would've been the only one to come on board. T-Mobile and others were too small, and Sprint was on death's door for the last couple decades in my opinion, and MVNOs and regional carriers wouldn't work, but I think all would've been glad to have Apple come knocking on their door. The other two options were Verizon and AT&T. Verizon being the clear top dog then could demand terms, and there's word that Apple went there first, but I wonder if that was more of a ploy to get AT&T to roll over with less of a fight as the CDMA-based network was not the ideal start for a tech company getting into the cell phone business.
    randominternetpersonradarthekat
  • Reply 19 of 51
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    iOS_Guy80 said:
    Give me a break. Goldman may be making the “financial” aspect decision regarding the Apple Card. The app design, user interface, intuitive user experience and creative aspect of the app, is all Apple.

    To be honest, my Apple Card is the worst one of my cards to deal with.   Basically a PIA.   It's why I limit it to Apple transactions only -- to keep the volume down.

    My other cards reconcile themselves automatically in Quicken -- the transactions download and then match themselves to the charges and payments with me doing almost nothing.   The Apple Card is all manual -- like computers and computing didn't exist.   Then instead of telling my bank to send them a check, I have to give them my checking account information so they can pull the money out themselves -- which I consider an unsafe practice.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 20 of 51
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    spice-boy said:
    macgui said:
    The company's policies for determining credit limits has come under attack from politicians.
    That bit makes me laugh and disgusted at the same time. A guy screams sexism and without any information or substantiation other than a differing lines of credit issued, out come the torches and pitchforks. Based on an unverified claim of 'they found out my wife was a woman and based on her gender, gave her a lower limit'. That's all it took.

    Nobody checks its merit and Apple gets the blame. G-S didn't help when they immediately boosted the guy's wife's credit limit. People called that an admission of guilt.

    Gov't officials, here to help, couldn't resist the rush to hitch their teams to the MeToo bandwagon and call for an 'immediate' investigation of Apple and G-S.

    I'd like to have seen G-S reply with 'We've examined the credit history of both Mr. and Mrs. Important Developer and are ready and willing to go on record for the as to why she got a lower credit limit. Just give us the word, Mr. Important Dev. Hint: nothing in our code and algorithms says reduce females' credit limit by 40%' and 'Ignore Woz's blathering'. The Govt has yet to tell us that Apple and G-S were caught lowering the glass sealing.
    My Chase credit card has a limit of $17,000, I was offered a credit limit of $2,500 from the Apple Card-Goldman Sachs. My first name is non-gender and when I correspond with strangers 9 out of 10 assume I am female. 

    I doubt you would believe that big institutions have bias in regards to gender or race because it has never happened to you therefore it does not exist and those that claim it does are liars. 

    I have similar allowances between my Chase card and my Apple Card.   But my first name is George.   I doubt it was gender.
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