The EU has zero jurisdiction over the USA, and I reject all of their ridiculous anti-innovation, anti-freedom, anti-consumer, anti-tech and anti-business proposals.
They can go stuff their miserable ideas where the sun doesn't shine.
The notion that a bunch of EU corrupt bureaucrats who know nothing about tech and have never created anything useful in their entire lives shall decide standard charger rules for everybody to follow is something that all American companies should flat out reject and simply tell them all to go and take a hike.
A company should be free to decide which tech and which standards to implement in their own products and Apple has been doing just fine for many, many decades without any EU bureaucrats deciding how Apple should make their products.
I trust Apple infinitely more than the EU. I don't have many good things to say about the EU.
I use USB, I use USB-C, I use Lightning, hell, I still use Firewire on a few older devices I have.
This dumb EU idea will definitely stifle innovation. If they want to live like cavemen, then go right ahead, but leave the US out of it, because we will not abide by their rules.
The EU can get lost.
You seem to be too angry at some people whose decisions won't affect you in any shape, way or form on your daily life... Make sure you don't get a heart attack while writing these type of comments.
He's angry and forthright, for sure, but I don't think you can say the decisions won't affect him in "...any shape, way, or form...". He's an Apple shareholder (I think), and an EU ruling along these lines will impact Apple's costs, hence its margins, hence its share price, and hence, his wealth.
Then stay in whatever country you live and don't move to any EU county
Was there anything in my post that gave you the impression that I would ever want to move to any EU country?
I'm not a good fit for the EU. I'm a person who is happy where they are and who is not a "refugee" with an image of an Al Qaeda flag as the background picture on their phone, so I'm not the right kind of candidate to be migrating into the EU.
Don't pigeonhole yourself so much. You're not a good fit or any society as a whole.
Seriously, did someone appoint you Society-Fit-Classifier of people?
The arrogance of your post is quite unbelievable.
Did you see the post I was replying to? That only a terrorist pretending to be a refugee would want to go to an EU country? My reply is on point, or are you not aware of his xenophobia?
I thought it was pure hyperbole. Perhaps you're taking it too literally.
Neither his speech -- annoying and incendiary as it may be -- nor xenophobia (I dislike xenophobes, since more than anything else, I could be their target) make him "unfit" in a society like that of, say, the US. Or Britain. Or Australia. There are many other similar societies. To suggest that only people who think like me (or you) are a fit in any society is untenable.
Then stay in whatever country you live and don't move to any EU county
Was there anything in my post that gave you the impression that I would ever want to move to any EU country?
I'm not a good fit for the EU. I'm a person who is happy where they are and who is not a "refugee" with an image of an Al Qaeda flag as the background picture on their phone, so I'm not the right kind of candidate to be migrating into the EU.
Don't pigeonhole yourself so much. You're not a good fit or any society as a whole.
Seriously, did someone appoint you Society-Fit-Classifier of people?
The arrogance of your post is quite unbelievable.
Did you see the post I was replying to? That only a terrorist pretending to be a refugee would want to go to an EU country? My reply is on point, or are you not aware of his xenophobia?
I thought it was pure hyperbole. Perhaps you're taking it too literally.
Neither his speech -- annoying and incendiary as it may be -- nor xenophobia (I dislike xenophobes, since more than anything else, I could be their target) make him "unfit" in a society like that of, say, the US. Or Britain. Or Australia. There are many other similar societies. To suggest that only people who think like me (or you) are a fit in any society is untenable.
My point was that all countries have within them complex social groups that would made xenophobia unfit. While these people do exist within all societies, they are not typically part of the front-and-center beliefs of modern societies as a whole, but to sub-cultures and only seem to come out to society as a whole when they have a soapbox of relative anonymity in which to hide from the persecution when they spew their hate-filled diatribe about how differing ethic background and locations of birth make them inferior to him and his ilk.
I don't buy Apple's argument. We need the universal charger. USB-C is the appropriate standard for data and up to 100W of power. A lot of cable waste has already been made for Apple devices when all mobile devices could benefit from just USB-C cable. Apple's Lightning cables are notorious for inferior quality and they quickly fray leading to unnecessary waste.
If users decide to switch, they still keep the same cable thus less waste.
You do know that a phone does not need 100 Watt, if you make everything USB-C weather it is 10W or 100W device that means the 10W device has to be rated including the cable to it to 100W. So all the lower power devices will be burdened with extra costs to ensure you do not have safety issue.
I do agree on the Apple cable issue, however, the reason they fall apart is due to the fact that Apple make the cable very flexible and the material they cover cable in does not hold up well to oils from peoples skins. Cable that do hold up well are usually thicker or less flexible, It is trade you have to deal with. I have not see a material with is flexible and also resistant to oils from your skin. BYW the way to avoid this do not pull out the cable with the wired part but the connect shell, I had Apple cables for a long time by not using the cable itself to pull it out.
Good points.... But there is another: Government legislating a common standard where that standard is ever changing: From serial to parallel to USB-A to HDMI to Display Port to USB-C.... etc.... So what happens when USB-D is released? Is Apple not allowed to use it -- or worse, forced to use it? USB-C is the latest in a long line of connectors but its not the last.
I'm not arguing against all government enforced standards: a good one might a common charging port for electric vehicles to promote commercial charging stations -- can you imagine if every manufacturer had their own unique connector? But that does not apply to cell phones and computer connectors.
Since Apple won't abandon the idiotic proprietary Lightning connector in favor of a standard on their own, it's going to take something like this to force them to do so.
Lightning was barely better than micro USB. It's idiotic now.
And hopefully this will go into effect before Apple does something stupid like removing the physical connector entirely, wireless charging is wasteful, it's always less efficient than just hooking up a cable. Sure, the losses are small for any given device, but when you're talking about hundreds of millions of devices the wasted power adds up.
Since Apple won't abandon the idiotic proprietary Lightning connector in favor of a standard on their own, it's going to take something like this to force them to do so.
Lightning was barely better than micro USB. It's idiotic now.
And hopefully this will go into effect before Apple does something stupid like removing the physical connector entirely, wireless charging is wasteful, it's always less efficient than just hooking up a cable. Sure, the losses are small for any given device, but when you're talking about hundreds of millions of devices the wasted power adds up.
It was never idiotic compared to micro-USB since Lightning (and even the 30-in iPod Dock Connector before it) have many capabilities that the USB protocol never supported, and that's without getting into just how awful micro-USB was as a port interface standard. Even now with USB-C as an excellent port interface standard there are clear pros to using Lightning on iPhones and I say this as someone that welcome Apple replacing Lightning with USB-C.
The EU has zero jurisdiction over the USA, and I reject all of their ridiculous anti-innovation, anti-freedom, anti-consumer, anti-tech and anti-business proposals.
But they have jurisdiction over EU, where Apple sells their devices.
I don't buy Apple's argument. We need the universal charger. USB-C is the appropriate standard for data and up to 100W of power. A lot of cable waste has already been made for Apple devices when all mobile devices could benefit from just USB-C cable. Apple's Lightning cables are notorious for inferior quality and they quickly fray leading to unnecessary waste.
If users decide to switch, they still keep the same cable thus less waste.
No, we don't; I - for instance - have not thrown one single cable in maybe 20 years.
The EU has zero jurisdiction over the USA, and I reject all of their ridiculous anti-innovation, anti-freedom, anti-consumer, anti-tech and anti-business proposals.
They can go stuff their miserable ideas where the sun doesn't shine.
The notion that a bunch of EU corrupt bureaucrats who know nothing about tech and have never created anything useful in their entire lives shall decide standard charger rules for everybody to follow is something that all American companies should flat out reject and simply tell them all to go and take a hike.
A company should be free to decide which tech and which standards to implement in their own products and Apple has been doing just fine for many, many decades without any EU bureaucrats deciding how Apple should make their products.
I trust Apple infinitely more than the EU. I don't have many good things to say about the EU.
I use USB, I use USB-C, I use Lightning, hell, I still use Firewire on a few older devices I have.
This dumb EU idea will definitely stifle innovation. If they want to live like cavemen, then go right ahead, but leave the US out of it, because we will not abide by their rules.
The EU can get lost.
The EU has 100% jurisdiction within the EU. A surprisingly big market that will dictate standards whether Americans like it or not.
The EU knows plenty about technology. You know the World Wide Web which you plastered your comment on was invented in the EU right?
Companies aren't allow decide what tech or standards they implement either in the US or the EU. Look for the FCC or CE stamps on every Apple product.
I trust the EU infinitely + 1 than American companies or indeed Americans.
It's staggering the level of dumb that has emerged in the US where using different standards to do the exact something is something to be fought.
The rest of the world is increasingly telling America to get lost with the collapse of trust in it's current regime. Data Protection and data sovereignty will mean the end of US tech companies dominance.
Arguably no port and no cables are the future and best option.
The EU proposal seems redundant/outdated and about as logical as requiring all phones to be the same size so we could use the same phone cases from brand to brand, it's just overreach and purism.
When we think about power: there isn't even a standard power socket, not globally, and not even across the EU, so why are we giving so much importance to this idea when a number of different chargers will always be needed.
Furthermore smart phones are not devices which rely on a shared charging solution, nor are they devices which are frequently moved from person to person - so there is actually no real inconvenience of having different chargers - it's the same way that I can't plug my microwave into a USB slot, or feed my car hay and carrots.
All of this effort would make more sense for electric cars, since they'd need to use a network of charging stations which should work with all models of electric car and currently there is an obscene number of charging plugs for cars.
Also for those people banging on about USB-C, well yes you can already charge your iPhone with the USB C to lightning cable, but that's not the point, the point is that the 32-pin iPod connector was once state of the art technology, we aren't solving anything by choosing a standard today that will invariably be replaced.
Because we don't change power plugs every five years.
It avoids staggering amounts of electrical waste. 1.5 Billion phones sold every year with a charge replacing a perfectly functioning one.
(Disclaimer: Haven't waded through the comments yet) I generally like the idea of standards - but in this case it does seem Apple has a point with the number of Lightning accessories out there that a forced USB-C switch would make obsolete. But why not just make an iPhone with a USB-C on one end and a Lightning on the other? Since the thing is (almost completely) symmetric.
I always wondered - wasn't the *first* USB was *supposed* to be "one port to rule them all"? Then why is it that there's USB-A, mini-usb that's smaller, then micro-usb that marginally smaller than that, then variants that are "almost mini/micro usb", the SuperSpeed/USB-3 (?) "thin connector", and I don't know what else? And is there any "commitment" that USB-C won't become the same thing? Admittedly, it seems *harder* for that to happen with USB-C - unless perhaps someone figures out how to make it even smaller - something like a "cable-ZIF connector. Unless USB-C is the end of the line for *all* wired connections - if wireless is fast/reliable enough now that wired connections are simply obsolete.
“Any better-performing new charging solution would be welcome as long as it is a common charging solution," said Sefcovic.
Be welcomed by the State, presumably. So now innovation will need permission by the State. Can you imagine the hoops you’d have to jump through, the time it would take, the bribery that would become endemic, in order to change a “standard”?
So what about existing devices? I guess we’d be forced to use a dongle....
Oh, wait. That would increase the electronic waste!
Interesting take. My interpretation of the quote is that if you think you have a better solution, convince the others in your industry that it's better: if everyone agrees, fine, go ahead.
This boils down to having experts debate the merits of a solution and, in theory, that's a great idea: objective information describing the benefits and drawbacks of each proposed solution, subjected to debate by people who understand the problem space really well.
In practice, the debate is rarely objective because the people who understand the problem space are beholden to various business and governmental interests, and thus we often get solutions that are sub-optimal from engineering and usability perspectives. We also get solutions that may be best for only a small majority rather than a large or overwhelming majority, leaving a significant proportion of the population struggling.
That said, the alternative proposed by the free market is that people should educate themselves about the problem space and make their own informed decisions. In practice, the market allows for a greater amount of misinformation to be injected into the debate, a much lower percentage of the participants care to educate themselves or debate at all, and confusion in the purchaser is more likely because the greater variety of available products actually increases the problem space.
Striking a balance between the two extremes is the job of regulators: interfere when you must, educate when you can, and choose your battles wisely.
--
I find the overall debate between the EU and Apple rather fascinating. Apple has a strong argument on their side in that very few people are unhappy with the Lightning connector (in the scheme of things), whether in the EU or across the world. I'm sure Apple have data to prove the benefits of the design outweigh the drawbacks of switching to it, and I'm sure that data has a high likelihood of being objectively true. I'm also reasonably sure that the benefits aren't significant from an engineering perspective or the entire industry would have adopted it as a new standard. Apple's argument about waste, however, is specious because that's just a matter of timing - it's all going to the dump / recycling center as soon as the new thing comes out - and Apple have never been shy about discarding what is no longer the best (although, to be fair, they are fairly conscientious about recycling).
I think the EU should abandon this particular fight, though. The scale of the market is so large that no particular standard has a majority share and any decision will cause harm to a significant percentage of the population.
I’ve got to stop you at your first paragraph in which you stated, “if you think you have a better solution, convince the others in your industry that it's better: if everyone agrees, fine, go ahead.”
One simple question for you. What incentive would your industry competitors have in giving an OK to your fabulous new cable design that would obsolete their competing products?
I believe you've missed the meaning of the words "my interpretation of the quote" - it's not my argument, it's the argument of the EU commission.
The EU has zero jurisdiction over the USA, and I reject all of their ridiculous anti-innovation, anti-freedom, anti-consumer, anti-tech and anti-business proposals.
They can go stuff their miserable ideas where the sun doesn't shine.
The notion that a bunch of EU corrupt bureaucrats who know nothing about tech and have never created anything useful in their entire lives shall decide standard charger rules for everybody to follow is something that all American companies should flat out reject and simply tell them all to go and take a hike.
A company should be free to decide which tech and which standards to implement in their own products and Apple has been doing just fine for many, many decades without any EU bureaucrats deciding how Apple should make their products.
I trust Apple infinitely more than the EU. I don't have many good things to say about the EU.
I use USB, I use USB-C, I use Lightning, hell, I still use Firewire on a few older devices I have.
This dumb EU idea will definitely stifle innovation. If they want to live like cavemen, then go right ahead, but leave the US out of it, because we will not abide by their rules.
The EU can get lost.
The EU has 100% jurisdiction within the EU. A surprisingly big market that will dictate standards whether Americans like it or not.
The EU knows plenty about technology. You know the World Wide Web which you plastered your comment on was invented in the EU right?
Companies aren't allow decide what tech or standards they implement either in the US or the EU. Look for the FCC or CE stamps on every Apple product.
I trust the EU infinitely + 1 than American companies or indeed Americans.
It's staggering the level of dumb that has emerged in the US where using different standards to do the exact something is something to be fought.
The rest of the world is increasingly telling America to get lost with the collapse of trust in it's current regime. Data Protection and data sovereignty will mean the end of US tech companies dominance.
True...
But I would argue that in this case, a standard is misguided because: 1) Unlike things like car chargers, this one offers little or no societal benefit.
2) It's injecting itself into an evolving technology and suddenly its the government who decides when or if we move on. Yes, USB-C is the latest and the greatest -- but its safe bet that it won't be the last.
3) We already have standards bodies setting common standards. But they aren't limiting companies to their standard. That's a big difference.
As an example: What happens if Apple decides to make wireless its standard. Or go to MagSafe which many preferred in MacBooks. Would the EU prevent it?
So, can the EU do it? Yes. Should they? No, this is a bad idea.
The EU has zero jurisdiction over the USA, and I reject all of their ridiculous anti-innovation, anti-freedom, anti-consumer, anti-tech and anti-business proposals.
They can go stuff their miserable ideas where the sun doesn't shine.
The notion that a bunch of EU corrupt bureaucrats who know nothing about tech and have never created anything useful in their entire lives shall decide standard charger rules for everybody to follow is something that all American companies should flat out reject and simply tell them all to go and take a hike.
A company should be free to decide which tech and which standards to implement in their own products and Apple has been doing just fine for many, many decades without any EU bureaucrats deciding how Apple should make their products.
I trust Apple infinitely more than the EU. I don't have many good things to say about the EU.
I use USB, I use USB-C, I use Lightning, hell, I still use Firewire on a few older devices I have.
This dumb EU idea will definitely stifle innovation. If they want to live like cavemen, then go right ahead, but leave the US out of it, because we will not abide by their rules.
The EU can get lost.
The EU has 100% jurisdiction within the EU. A surprisingly big market that will dictate standards whether Americans like it or not.
The EU knows plenty about technology. You know the World Wide Web which you plastered your comment on was invented in the EU right? I think you need to do your research, there is thing call DARPANET it is the origins of the Internet and it was developed my the US military to allow researcher to share information among the top universities and the US Research Laboratories. The whole WWW part came from a little company called Netscape which is US company.
Companies aren't allow decide what tech or standards they implement either in the US or the EU. Look for the FCC or CE stamps on every Apple product. Again the FCC and UL predate the CE, CE only came about since the most countries in the EU could not agree on standards and the EU want to create trade barriers for non EU countries. I spend half my career dealing the Regulatory matters related to products. There are no many things in the CE mark standard which is total waste of time, resources and costs. Products today cost more just to incorporate features just to pass the test which has no real world need. For the longest time any product sold in the EU was require to be tested in a EU origin lab thus bring money to the EU for testing. There is still some EU requires which force companies to test in the EO they are approved for sale. The EU is all about creating trade barrier not about making things better for consumers.
I trust the EU infinitely + 1 than American companies or indeed Americans.
It's staggering the level of dumb that has emerged in the US where using different standards to do the exact something is something to be fought.
The rest of the world is increasingly telling America to get lost with the collapse of trust in it's current regime. Data Protection and data sovereignty will mean the end of US tech companies dominance. Yeah this will work well, without the US economy most countries in world would not be where they are today. Just notice when the US economy is hurting other countries economies hurt far more. The US spend more disposable income than any other place, without US consumers buying what the world makes there is no one else to make up the difference. One thing you will notice in the US which you will not see anywhere else, US has products from all over the work and their brand from lots of different places, this is not true for other countries they tend to only have the local brands they do not buy from around the world. One good example in the US we have cars from almost every major car manufacturer around the world in the EU you only see EU companies maybe a Ford or two. I also doubt the data issue will end the US dominance, we have yet to see a EU competitor to Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Netflix and the list goes on.
The EU has zero jurisdiction over the USA, and I reject all of their ridiculous anti-innovation, anti-freedom, anti-consumer, anti-tech and anti-business proposals.
They can go stuff their miserable ideas where the sun doesn't shine.
The notion that a bunch of EU corrupt bureaucrats who know nothing about tech and have never created anything useful in their entire lives shall decide standard charger rules for everybody to follow is something that all American companies should flat out reject and simply tell them all to go and take a hike.
A company should be free to decide which tech and which standards to implement in their own products and Apple has been doing just fine for many, many decades without any EU bureaucrats deciding how Apple should make their products.
I trust Apple infinitely more than the EU. I don't have many good things to say about the EU.
I use USB, I use USB-C, I use Lightning, hell, I still use Firewire on a few older devices I have.
This dumb EU idea will definitely stifle innovation. If they want to live like cavemen, then go right ahead, but leave the US out of it, because we will not abide by their rules.
The EU can get lost.
That post... is... classic You.
So he posts a lot of incredibly reasonably, apt, and intelligent things? I'll need to look him up.
The charger can be universal and have a common output plug standard (although it would also have to have common voltage output), but the devices can use whatever the manufacturers want via the appropriate cable. Apple does this already - the Apple phone charger still uses USB-A (right?) with a USB to Lightning cable. Future chargers could use USB-C, just as Apple's computer power supplies do with a USB-C to Lightning cable.
The EU has zero jurisdiction over the USA, and I reject all of their ridiculous anti-innovation, anti-freedom, anti-consumer, anti-tech and anti-business proposals.
They can go stuff their miserable ideas where the sun doesn't shine.
The notion that a bunch of EU corrupt bureaucrats who know nothing about tech and have never created anything useful in their entire lives shall decide standard charger rules for everybody to follow is something that all American companies should flat out reject and simply tell them all to go and take a hike.
A company should be free to decide which tech and which standards to implement in their own products and Apple has been doing just fine for many, many decades without any EU bureaucrats deciding how Apple should make their products.
I trust Apple infinitely more than the EU. I don't have many good things to say about the EU.
I use USB, I use USB-C, I use Lightning, hell, I still use Firewire on a few older devices I have.
This dumb EU idea will definitely stifle innovation. If they want to live like cavemen, then go right ahead, but leave the US out of it, because we will not abide by their rules.
The EU can get lost.
So based on that argument, you would have supported no standard for AC outlets in the home and permitted builders and manufacturers to use whatever outlet types they felt like using, because you feel there should be no government involvement. Standards, more often than not, are good things, not bad things. As I already posted, there's no reason why the power brick can't use a common jack with the devices still using whatever the manufacturers feel like via an adapter cable. Apple does this already with USB-A to Lightning and they do it with computer power supplies that work on all standards and have a different changeable power plug per country. Of course, if the industry moves to wireless charging for phones, this is all going to be moot anyway. And this isn't the first time that the EU has tried to adopt such a standard - I remember them trying this years ago and all the phone chargers were supposed to use mini-USB. I always wondered what happened to that initiative.
I think that there's tremendous confusion out there today with all the cable types. I recently purchased an XQD/CFExpress drive that uses USB-C connectors, but is Thunderbolt 3. I went crazy at first getting it working because I didn't realize that even though it's USB-C connectors, that a regular USB-C cable wouldn't work - it needed a Thunderbolt cable. I also recently bought cables to simplify the wiring to an old USB-hub so I could eliminate dongles on the Mac USB-C end. I thought the USB hub was using mini-USB. Turns out it was some other tiny plug, although I still have no idea what it is. I gave up and ordered a new hub. And I know what I'm doing. Imagine the average person who doesn't know anything about the tech.
I think standards need to be flexible enough to permit innovation, but some basic standards would be nice and power is one place where there's always been standards and there's no need for it to be proprietary.
Comments
Neither his speech -- annoying and incendiary as it may be -- nor xenophobia (I dislike xenophobes, since more than anything else, I could be their target) make him "unfit" in a society like that of, say, the US. Or Britain. Or Australia. There are many other similar societies. To suggest that only people who think like me (or you) are a fit in any society is untenable.
How is Lightning the problem now?
https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/initiative/2020/publication/342389/attachment/090166e5c0101005_en
It provides some background on what is behind the idea.
The EU knows plenty about technology. You know the World Wide Web which you plastered your comment on was invented in the EU right?
Companies aren't allow decide what tech or standards they implement either in the US or the EU. Look for the FCC or CE stamps on every Apple product.
I trust the EU infinitely + 1 than American companies or indeed Americans.
It's staggering the level of dumb that has emerged in the US where using different standards to do the exact something is something to be fought.
The rest of the world is increasingly telling America to get lost with the collapse of trust in it's current regime. Data Protection and data sovereignty will mean the end of US tech companies dominance.
Because we don't change power plugs every five years.
It avoids staggering amounts of electrical waste. 1.5 Billion phones sold every year with a charge replacing a perfectly functioning one.
Also the EU is standardising car chargers.
1) Unlike things like car chargers, this one offers little or no societal benefit.
Should they? No, this is a bad idea.
So he posts a lot of incredibly reasonably, apt, and intelligent things? I'll need to look him up.
So based on that argument, you would have supported no standard for AC outlets in the home and permitted builders and manufacturers to use whatever outlet types they felt like using, because you feel there should be no government involvement. Standards, more often than not, are good things, not bad things. As I already posted, there's no reason why the power brick can't use a common jack with the devices still using whatever the manufacturers feel like via an adapter cable. Apple does this already with USB-A to Lightning and they do it with computer power supplies that work on all standards and have a different changeable power plug per country. Of course, if the industry moves to wireless charging for phones, this is all going to be moot anyway. And this isn't the first time that the EU has tried to adopt such a standard - I remember them trying this years ago and all the phone chargers were supposed to use mini-USB. I always wondered what happened to that initiative.
I think that there's tremendous confusion out there today with all the cable types. I recently purchased an XQD/CFExpress drive that uses USB-C connectors, but is Thunderbolt 3. I went crazy at first getting it working because I didn't realize that even though it's USB-C connectors, that a regular USB-C cable wouldn't work - it needed a Thunderbolt cable. I also recently bought cables to simplify the wiring to an old USB-hub so I could eliminate dongles on the Mac USB-C end. I thought the USB hub was using mini-USB. Turns out it was some other tiny plug, although I still have no idea what it is. I gave up and ordered a new hub. And I know what I'm doing. Imagine the average person who doesn't know anything about the tech.
I think standards need to be flexible enough to permit innovation, but some basic standards would be nice and power is one place where there's always been standards and there's no need for it to be proprietary.