I don't buy Apple's argument. We need the universal charger. USB-C is the appropriate standard for data and up to 100W of power. A lot of cable waste has already been made for Apple devices when all mobile devices could benefit from just USB-C cable. Apple's Lightning cables are notorious for inferior quality and they quickly fray leading to unnecessary waste.
If users decide to switch, they still keep the same cable thus less waste.
Do we want government deciding how tech moves forward?
USB-C is hardly the answer. The company I work for uses brand “D” computers which have all switched over to a USB-C docking station. The connections are constantly breaking both on the dock side and the internal minuscule tab inside the port. Lightning as a port is far more robust. As for the cable fraying issue - in 10 years of using iPhones and iPads I have never had one fray. I know I’ve seen other people do it - just can’t figure out what they are doing to make that happen. But that technically wouldn’t be too difficult to make more sturdy for those trying to use their cables as lassoes.
FTR, I have numerous USB C cables. None of them have ever failed or been problematic in the last 4 years. I have had numerous failures of micro USB cables. (I haven't been using Lightning long enough to establish a baseline to compare.)
WHOA! "...stuff their miserable ideas where the sun doesn't shine" - look here buster, I respect freedom of speech just as much as the next American but that slaty language has no place here. If I were your mother I'd stick a bar of soap in your mouth - this filth flarn flarn filth is unacceptable
I'm not sure if your post is attempting to be ironic or not, but if you are serious, then actually, you don't respect freedom of speech if you object to that extremely mild sentence and would wish to censor it.
Maybe the EU should turn its attention to plethora of connectors on Windows PCs? Apple has basically way ahead standardising around USB-C (Thunderbolt) connectors for data and power on Macs. Now look at 90% of Windows PCs with all kinds of dated connectors.
But Apple is right, switching does create waste. But in the case of chargers, most are now a separate cable and USB charger and most smartphones and tablets can charge off any USB charger, although it might not be optimal, so in that sense it is universal. The same goes for computers that use USB-C as you can charge a MacBook Pro off any USB-C charger, even if it's under powered, such as a 15W charger.
If they want to standardise, then I'd suggest they simply standardise around USB chargers while allowing separate interface cables (lighting, usb-c, usb-micro), which is basically where the industry is now. The biggest gains would be on dumb phones, laptop computers and desktop computers that always seem to have a different size power plug or data connector and get dumped every time someone buys a new dumb phone or computer. I have a box of dumb phone and landline phones chargers in my basement as proof of that.
Because Apple has complete control over the Lightning port, it is able to run the MFI program and thus more easily police substandard and dangerous lightning cords made by fly-by-night manufacturers. That's a safety angle I don't want to lose in exchange for a dubious goal of standardizing charging cords from 2 standards to 1.
There's a total mismatch of costs and benefits going on here. If you have a billion+ phones in each standard, and the average number of switchers is quite low, then the number of people having to throw away their charging cords (rather than giving it to someone who can use it) because they are switching to the other standard will also be very, very low.
I would say the waste from unnecessary proliferation of charging cords happens not because people are switching between iPhone and Android but because people lose those darn things too easily. This will not be affected by standardizing to one port.
People have got to get this idea of a standard connector on the end of a cable out of their heads. It's so damn myopic.
If a standard is ever agreed upon, put the standard connector on the *power brick* only (like Apple already does with USB-A) so all companies can continue to innovate with their devices. The only thing companies would have to do is include a "whatever our device connector is" to "standard" charging cable. Done. Easy. No problems for anyone. Innovation can continue, and we save on a crap-ton of e-waste by not shipping zillions of different types of power bricks. (Apple, BTW, you don't need to include a power adapter with every iPhone anymore, we ALL already have one, or two, or three, or ...).
Would that leave some waste in adapter cables? Sure, but that pales in comparison to billions of wasted power bricks with stupid, insanely stupid, permanently attached cables on them. Would the standard power connector have to be set in stone forever? No. A better connector will eventually evolve, and then the standard can be changed/updated.
Something like USB-C should be perfectly fine for a 100w or less *power delivery* connection standard for a good 20-30 years. It's taken that long to develop the new USB-C universal connector anyway (USB-A was the previous defacto-standard), so make it the standard power connector for a while and we can save on a couple of decades of excess e-waste. Update the standard when a new, significantly better one comes along. Leave companies alone so they can continue to innovate with the connectors on their *devices*.
“Any better-performing new charging solution would be welcome as long as it is a common charging solution," said Sefcovic.
Be welcomed by the State, presumably. So now innovation will need permission by the State. Can you imagine the hoops you’d have to jump through, the time it would take, the bribery that would become endemic, in order to change a “standard”?
So what about existing devices? I guess we’d be forced to use a dongle....
Oh, wait. That would increase the electronic waste!
Interesting take. My interpretation of the quote is that if you think you have a better solution, convince the others in your industry that it's better: if everyone agrees, fine, go ahead.
This boils down to having experts debate the merits of a solution and, in theory, that's a great idea: objective information describing the benefits and drawbacks of each proposed solution, subjected to debate by people who understand the problem space really well.
In practice, the debate is rarely objective because the people who understand the problem space are beholden to various business and governmental interests, and thus we often get solutions that are sub-optimal from engineering and usability perspectives. We also get solutions that may be best for only a small majority rather than a large or overwhelming majority, leaving a significant proportion of the population struggling.
That said, the alternative proposed by the free market is that people should educate themselves about the problem space and make their own informed decisions. In practice, the market allows for a greater amount of misinformation to be injected into the debate, a much lower percentage of the participants care to educate themselves or debate at all, and confusion in the purchaser is more likely because the greater variety of available products actually increases the problem space.
Striking a balance between the two extremes is the job of regulators: interfere when you must, educate when you can, and choose your battles wisely.
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I find the overall debate between the EU and Apple rather fascinating. Apple has a strong argument on their side in that very few people are unhappy with the Lightning connector (in the scheme of things), whether in the EU or across the world. I'm sure Apple have data to prove the benefits of the design outweigh the drawbacks of switching to it, and I'm sure that data has a high likelihood of being objectively true. I'm also reasonably sure that the benefits aren't significant from an engineering perspective or the entire industry would have adopted it as a new standard. Apple's argument about waste, however, is specious because that's just a matter of timing - it's all going to the dump / recycling center as soon as the new thing comes out - and Apple have never been shy about discarding what is no longer the best (although, to be fair, they are fairly conscientious about recycling).
I think the EU should abandon this particular fight, though. The scale of the market is so large that no particular standard has a majority share and any decision will cause harm to a significant percentage of the population.
I’ve got to stop you at your first paragraph in which you stated, “if you think you have a better solution, convince the others in your industry that it's better: if everyone agrees, fine, go ahead.”
One simple question for you. What incentive would your industry competitors have in giving an OK to your fabulous new cable design that would obsolete their competing products?
I don't buy Apple's argument. We need the universal charger. USB-C is the appropriate standard for data and up to 100W of power. A lot of cable waste has already been made for Apple devices when all mobile devices could benefit from just USB-C cable. Apple's Lightning cables are notorious for inferior quality and they quickly fray leading to unnecessary waste.
If users decide to switch, they still keep the same cable thus less waste.
Do we want government deciding how tech moves forward?
I don't buy Apple's argument. We need the universal charger. USB-C is the appropriate standard for data and up to 100W of power. A lot of cable waste has already been made for Apple devices when all mobile devices could benefit from just USB-C cable. Apple's Lightning cables are notorious for inferior quality and they quickly fray leading to unnecessary waste.
If users decide to switch, they still keep the same cable thus less waste.
Anything USB is fucking trash. There’s nothing more useless than those connectors. I’ve been using them since their first inception and only because there’s nothing else. They suck and wish they would go away.
While I am totally opposed to this idea, your comment is a little troubling given that Apple has moved its MacBook Pros these “fucking trash” connectors only.
“Any better-performing new charging solution would be welcome as long as it is a common charging solution," said Sefcovic.
Be welcomed by the State, presumably. So now innovation will need permission by the State. Can you imagine the hoops you’d have to jump through, the time it would take, the bribery that would become endemic, in order to change a “standard”?
So what about existing devices? I guess we’d be forced to use a dongle....
Oh, wait. That would increase the electronic waste!
Interesting take. My interpretation of the quote is that if you think you have a better solution, convince the others in your industry that it's better: if everyone agrees, fine, go ahead.
This boils down to having experts debate the merits of a solution and, in theory, that's a great idea: objective information describing the benefits and drawbacks of each proposed solution, subjected to debate by people who understand the problem space really well.
In practice, the debate is rarely objective because the people who understand the problem space are beholden to various business and governmental interests, and thus we often get solutions that are sub-optimal from engineering and usability perspectives. We also get solutions that may be best for only a small majority rather than a large or overwhelming majority, leaving a significant proportion of the population struggling.
That said, the alternative proposed by the free market is that people should educate themselves about the problem space and make their own informed decisions. In practice, the market allows for a greater amount of misinformation to be injected into the debate, a much lower percentage of the participants care to educate themselves or debate at all, and confusion in the purchaser is more likely because the greater variety of available products actually increases the problem space.
Striking a balance between the two extremes is the job of regulators: interfere when you must, educate when you can, and choose your battles wisely.
--
I find the overall debate between the EU and Apple rather fascinating. Apple has a strong argument on their side in that very few people are unhappy with the Lightning connector (in the scheme of things), whether in the EU or across the world. I'm sure Apple have data to prove the benefits of the design outweigh the drawbacks of switching to it, and I'm sure that data has a high likelihood of being objectively true. I'm also reasonably sure that the benefits aren't significant from an engineering perspective or the entire industry would have adopted it as a new standard. Apple's argument about waste, however, is specious because that's just a matter of timing - it's all going to the dump / recycling center as soon as the new thing comes out - and Apple have never been shy about discarding what is no longer the best (although, to be fair, they are fairly conscientious about recycling).
I think the EU should abandon this particular fight, though. The scale of the market is so large that no particular standard has a majority share and any decision will cause harm to a significant percentage of the population.
I’ve got to stop you at your first paragraph in which you stated, “if you think you have a better solution, convince the others in your industry that it's better: if everyone agrees, fine, go ahead.”
One simple question for you. What incentive would your industry competitors have in giving an OK to your fabulous new cable design that would obsolete their competing products?
It’s actually common. Standards bodies exist and various companies, like Apple, contribute technology and R&D to the standards that eventually evolve. Bluetooth working group as an example.
Apple going completely portless would pose a problem. Backup battery packs are just about half as efficient when they charge via induction versus a cable. (Well so are wall chargers but wall power being infinite it’s irrelevant).
Sure for everyday use when we’re not ever that far from an outlet such Qi system inefficiency is relatively meaningless, perhaps excepting its slower speed. But for more active traveling when we’ve got to carry a battery pack? The necessary size, and thus weight, of that pack just doubled.
I don't buy Apple's argument. We need the universal charger. USB-C is the appropriate standard for data and up to 100W of power. A lot of cable waste has already been made for Apple devices when all mobile devices could benefit from just USB-C cable. Apple's Lightning cables are notorious for inferior quality and they quickly fray leading to unnecessary waste.
If users decide to switch, they still keep the same cable thus less waste.
This has nothing to do with who has the current better cable. Apple uses usb c for iPad so they aren’t opposed to it. The issue is innovation. Why would one company innovate when they can’t get a comfort advantage after they put in the research and development?
This is exactly what I said when I first saw this proposed. This is n extremely short sighted proposal by the EU.
erm... all of Apple’s chargers for phones are USB... they are standard chargers.
all their new mac chargers are as well.
was there some other universal port on chargers that the EU was thinking of?
My thought as well; but for some reason the expectation is it’s the DEVICE port that’s intended to be standardized, eliminating the Lightning port. But that’s not “the charger” is it?
USB-C is hardly the answer. The company I work for uses brand “D” computers which have all switched over to a USB-C docking station. The connections are constantly breaking both on the dock side and the internal minuscule tab inside the port. Lightning as a port is far more robust. As for the cable fraying issue - in 10 years of using iPhones and iPads I have never had one fray. I know I’ve seen other people do it - just can’t figure out what they are doing to make that happen. But that technically wouldn’t be too difficult to make more sturdy for those trying to use their cables as lassoes.
Apples cables are expensive crap, I’ve gotten far more life out of third party cables.
The EU has zero jurisdiction over the USA, and I reject all of their ridiculous anti-innovation, anti-freedom, anti-consumer, anti-tech and anti-business proposals.
They can go stuff their miserable ideas where the sun doesn't shine.
The notion that a bunch of EU corrupt bureaucrats who know nothing about tech and have never created anything useful in their entire lives shall decide standard charger rules for everybody to follow is something that all American companies should flat out reject and simply tell them all to go and take a hike.
A company should be free to decide which tech and which standards to implement in their own products and Apple has been doing just fine for many, many decades without any EU bureaucrats deciding how Apple should make their products.
I trust Apple infinitely more than the EU. I don't have many good things to say about the EU.
I use USB, I use USB-C, I use Lightning, hell, I still use Firewire on a few older devices I have.
This dumb EU idea will definitely stifle innovation. If they want to live like cavemen, then go right ahead, but leave the US out of it, because we will not abide by their rules.
The EU can get lost.
The whole issue was caused by the industry, not the EU. The industry was using chargers as a lock-in on each company's chargers.
It was the EU which had a large hand in putting a stop to that but chose to allow the industry to regulate itself rather than legislating.
It was the EU which also brought us RoHS and WEEE, this time through legislation.
Both directives have had a worldwide impact but are only applicable within the EU. Of course other nations and companies have had to adapt to these rules if they want to do business in the EU and many choose to apply them to their non-EU business. That's good for everyone.
Amazon pages in the EU for example often carry WEEE info.
We'll see where this EU review ends but Apple shipping millions of 5W chargers in the box in 2020, really should look into how many of them actually get used.
The EU has zero jurisdiction over the USA, and I reject all of their ridiculous anti-innovation, anti-freedom, anti-consumer, anti-tech and anti-business proposals.
They can go stuff their miserable ideas where the sun doesn't shine.
The notion that a bunch of EU corrupt bureaucrats who know nothing about tech and have never created anything useful in their entire lives shall decide standard charger rules for everybody to follow is something that all American companies should flat out reject and simply tell them all to go and take a hike.
A company should be free to decide which tech and which standards to implement in their own products and Apple has been doing just fine for many, many decades without any EU bureaucrats deciding how Apple should make their products.
I trust Apple infinitely more than the EU. I don't have many good things to say about the EU.
I use USB, I use USB-C, I use Lightning, hell, I still use Firewire on a few older devices I have.
This dumb EU idea will definitely stifle innovation. If they want to live like cavemen, then go right ahead, but leave the US out of it, because we will not abide by their rules.
The EU can get lost.
The whole issue was caused by the industry, not the EU. The industry was using chargers as a lock-in on each company's chargers.
It was the EU which had a large hand in putting a stop to that but chose to allow the industry to regulate itself rather than legislating.
It was the EU which also brought us RoHS and WEEE, this time through legislation.
Both directives have had a worldwide impact but are only applicable within the EU. Of course other nations and companies have had to adapt to these rules if they want to do business in the EU and many choose to apply them to their non-EU business. That's good for everyone.
Amazon pages in the EU for example often carry WEEE info.
We'll see where this EU review ends but Apple shipping millions of 5W chargers in the box in 2020, really should look into how many of them actually get used.
This nonsense is so thick that I had to post it twice. It isn’t the EUs business to come up with phony reasons to impose regulations. This especially if the person coming up with the regulation is a complete idiot.
Regulations like ROHS have been a complete disaster and have done far more harm than good. The regulation on lead in electronics is beyond all rational coverage leading to the high failure rate electronics we have today. No rational person ears circuit boards for dinner.
USB-C is hardly the answer. The company I work for uses brand “D” computers which have all switched over to a USB-C docking station. The connections are constantly breaking both on the dock side and the internal minuscule tab inside the port. Lightning as a port is far more robust. As for the cable fraying issue - in 10 years of using iPhones and iPads I have never had one fray. I know I’ve seen other people do it - just can’t figure out what they are doing to make that happen. But that technically wouldn’t be too difficult to make more sturdy for those trying to use their cables as lassoes.
You’re in the minority when it comes to fraying Lightning cables. I have 1-2 a year fray. Doesn’t matter if it’s Apple or a Third Party cable. The outer skin of the cable splits right where it meets the plastic nub before the Lightning connection. It happens in the exact same place every single time.
Anyway, I’m with the EU here. Apple’s excuses are typical laissez-faire corporatist BS memes. Stifle innovation, my ass. Lightning is a fine connector, IMO, but USB-C can replace it. For everything. Apple themselves are already in the process of doing this (hello loss of dedicated charging port on Macbooks), so why are they bitching about it being regulated into uniformity with universal power supplies?
Corporations want to have control over everything (regardless of how harmful it is in the long term to humanity and our environment)... and they nearly already do.
I can’t support the EU as frankly it is none of their business. However I can’t really support Apple and the way they lock down the port and resist the change to USB-C. What makes the European unions position even more stupid is the fact that the cables these ports plug into get replaced frequently Neither lightening no USB-C are all that reliable mechanically so choosing one over the other makes little sense.
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But Apple is right, switching does create waste. But in the case of chargers, most are now a separate cable and USB charger and most smartphones and tablets can charge off any USB charger, although it might not be optimal, so in that sense it is universal. The same goes for computers that use USB-C as you can charge a MacBook Pro off any USB-C charger, even if it's under powered, such as a 15W charger.
If they want to standardise, then I'd suggest they simply standardise around USB chargers while allowing separate interface cables (lighting, usb-c, usb-micro), which is basically where the industry is now. The biggest gains would be on dumb phones, laptop computers and desktop computers that always seem to have a different size power plug or data connector and get dumped every time someone buys a new dumb phone or computer. I have a box of dumb phone and landline phones chargers in my basement as proof of that.
There's a total mismatch of costs and benefits going on here. If you have a billion+ phones in each standard, and the average number of switchers is quite low, then the number of people having to throw away their charging cords (rather than giving it to someone who can use it) because they are switching to the other standard will also be very, very low.
I would say the waste from unnecessary proliferation of charging cords happens not because people are switching between iPhone and Android but because people lose those darn things too easily. This will not be affected by standardizing to one port.
If a standard is ever agreed upon, put the standard connector on the *power brick* only (like Apple already does with USB-A) so all companies can continue to innovate with their devices. The only thing companies would have to do is include a "whatever our device connector is" to "standard" charging cable. Done. Easy. No problems for anyone. Innovation can continue, and we save on a crap-ton of e-waste by not shipping zillions of different types of power bricks. (Apple, BTW, you don't need to include a power adapter with every iPhone anymore, we ALL already have one, or two, or three, or ...).
Would that leave some waste in adapter cables? Sure, but that pales in comparison to billions of wasted power bricks with stupid, insanely stupid, permanently attached cables on them. Would the standard power connector have to be set in stone forever? No. A better connector will eventually evolve, and then the standard can be changed/updated.
Something like USB-C should be perfectly fine for a 100w or less *power delivery* connection standard for a good 20-30 years. It's taken that long to develop the new USB-C universal connector anyway (USB-A was the previous defacto-standard), so make it the standard power connector for a while and we can save on a couple of decades of excess e-waste. Update the standard when a new, significantly better one comes along. Leave companies alone so they can continue to innovate with the connectors on their *devices*.
One simple question for you. What incentive would your industry competitors have in giving an OK to your fabulous new cable design that would obsolete their competing products?
As great as wireless charging is, having the option of cable is ideal. Having 1 port on a phone is not too many... and highly desirable.
This is exactly what I said when I first saw this proposed. This is n extremely short sighted proposal by the EU.