EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, overwhelmingly vote to push for charging cable standard

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Comments

  • Reply 81 of 118
    hriw-annon@xs4all.nl[email protected] Posts: 61unconfirmed, member

    daven said:
    Am I missing something here? All phones can charge via usb. The only difference between them is the cord from the usb charger to the device which gets replaced fairly often because of fraying. 
    my thoughts also.

    Apple’s chargers are usb, the charger is standard. What is the wailing about from all corners. nothing is going to change.
    Me also. 

    What this is about is finally adopting the “Radio Equipment Directive” from 2014. This thing mentions chargers but no connectors or plugs. 
    Apple’s chargers for “radio equipment” have always used the stupidest boring standard USB  type A, and recently USB-C. The cables are consumables and mandating one type for all will do next to nothing to combat e-waste. 
    They are literally talking about the plugs on the phone and the cords' connectors that connect to them.
    Here https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2020-0070_EN.html connectors are literally not mentioned at all and cables are mentioned once when saying they should be recycled more. 
  • Reply 82 of 118
    hriw-annon@xs4all.nl[email protected] Posts: 61unconfirmed, member


    apple ][ said:
    The EU is not needed and is not relevant in the big scheme of things.
    Absolutely incredible — that's 28 European countries and over 500 million people (or 7% of the world population) you're talking about. You can't possibly be serious.
       The original poster is correct...7% of the world is not relevant.
    The US is less that that. So even less relevant?
    edited January 2020 baconstang
  • Reply 83 of 118
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,164member
    sdw2001 said:
    The fact that the EU could force Apple and others to adopt a universal connector standard is unbelievable.  Government has no role in telling companies what they can make and how they should make it.  I'd like to see Apple and Samsung just give the EU the proverbial finger.  Tell them, 'we're doing what we think is right for our businesses.  If you don't like it, we'll pull out of the EU market entirely."   
    It is not unbelievable. It is completely normal and the first MoU reduced more than 30 proprietary charging connectors to just three. It also led to cables not forming an inseparable part of the charger, allowing users to not only choose the manufacturer of the cable but not have to sacrifice the charter itself due to a broken cable/connector.

    The end result of EU action was that industry change was applied worldwide.

    The MoU expired in 2014 and this proposal aims to benefit users more through increased competition and device interoperability.

    Apple and Samsung are perfectly welcome to abandon the EU market if they wish but the EU has a duty to think beyond 'business'.

    It is ironic that you mentioned Apple and Samsung. Both have a history of poorly designed cabling.
  • Reply 84 of 118
    hriw-annon@xs4all.nl[email protected] Posts: 61unconfirmed, member
    Mandating that chargers be sold separately is something I would like. I hate paying for stuff I don’t need.

    baconstangGG1
  • Reply 85 of 118
    HeliBumHeliBum Posts: 129member
    Seems like the EU is overreaching... even if the idea has merit.
    Don't they always?
  • Reply 86 of 118
    HeliBumHeliBum Posts: 129member
    So far, I've been less than impressed with all the miniaturized USB connections with the possible exception of Mini USB. Micro USB and USB-C have been unreliable for me, with USB-C having the added downside of the connectors loosening up over a short period.
  • Reply 87 of 118
    zoetmbzoetmb Posts: 2,614member
    elijahg said:
    While the US style plugs may be "elegant", they're actually pretty crap - especially the two prong no earth ones. If you stand on the cable near the plug, the prongs can snap off and leave live prongs stuck out. The sockets quickly wear out so that wall warts won't stay in the socket, and just drop out on the floor. Most sockets aren't phased, so live-neutral reverse is possible, and also they aren't usually earthed. The 110VAC supply is less efficient too because there's more power drop in the cables due to higher current, so you need thicker cables to counter that. The British BS1363 plugs are pretty well designed, they are shaped as they are so that if the cable is pulled out, the live is the first to get pulled out, followed by neutral and finally earth. They have a longer earth pin so that engages first, and opens shutters so fingers can't get inside. The sockets are almost universally switched, so you can leave something plugged in and turn it off - almost negating the wear issue you get with US sockets. They're also fused so that a fault in the device won't melt the cable.

    But in any case - this is the EU overreaching again. This is pretty much solely to target Apple, as most phones already use USB-C. Legislation on this really isn't necessary, everyone knows USB B micro is utter junk and manufacturers are happily moving away from it.
    I've lived in pretty old apartments (although probably not by UK/European standards) and I've never had an outlet "wear out".   And I really don't think standing on a plug and breaking it has been a big problem.   The UK plug is certainly more robust than the US plugs and the safety components of the outlets are very nice (although some would consider it overkill), but I'll take the smaller U.S. plugs over the UK plugs and the European rounded pin plugs any day.   I hate carrying around those huge adapters.  

    As far as this EU "standard" is concerned, if it's just the power supply (and not the cable) and it's USB-A or USB-C, I don't see what the big deal is.  Apple can still use Lightning on the phone as they do today, right?   But if the EU mandates what's on the phone itself, that's  another story.   Seems to me that as long as the power brick or wall wart itself can be used on any phone, that solves the problem of waste.    
    baconstang
  • Reply 88 of 118
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,587member
    avon b7 said:
    elijahg said:
    ElCapitan said:
    seanj said:
    ElCapitan said:
    EU standardization like this tend to spill into the entire European market fast. That will also include the UK, as the UK don't have any mobile phone industry of their own, they basically just have to accept the EU standard. 

    WRONG. The U.K. is leaving today and won’t be accepting EU diktats anymore. It’s already been announced for example we won’t be adopting the EU’s ridiculous new copyright directive than will prevent a lot of YouTube, Facebook, Instagram postings.

    Not having any local mobile phone industry - we do the important stuff instead like ARM Holdings - is irrelevant. This is about consumers, and we will be able to buy things people in the EU aren’t, from Lightning port iPhones to powerful vacuum cleaners (yes the EU actually banned those!)

    Roll on Brexit!! :smiley: 
    Yeah, it must really suck (!) not to have the most powerful vacuum cleaners. Happy Hoovering!
    It was actually a British inventor (James Dyson) that took the EU to court over the directive, as they were being idiots  (as usual) and allowing vacuum cleaners with a low start speed/low energy use to have a "boost" button which doubled their energy use with a few percent more suck to pass as "green" and bypass the directive.
    Wasn't that case a fight against just the labelling? I thought all the 'eco' limitations remained in place.

    On the other hand it proved that EU decisions can be appealed and overturned. And also perfect the testing methods.
    Yes my mistake, you're entirely right it was about the labelling, not the boost button - though the boost button is still idiotic, as is the loophole that cordless vacuums can use as much power as they like. But the root of the lawsuit was about the testing procedure. The EU's law was that the vacuums should be tested for efficiency when empty, but Dyson argued that wasn't realistic because no one uses a vacuum that's empty and with spotless filters. The "general court" in Luxembourg ruled Dyson was correct.
    edited January 2020
  • Reply 89 of 118
    shaminoshamino Posts: 498member

    elijahg said:
    While the US style plugs may be "elegant", they're actually pretty crap - especially the two prong no earth ones. If you stand on the cable near the plug, the prongs can snap off and leave live prongs stuck out. The sockets quickly wear out so that wall warts won't stay in the socket, and just drop out on the floor.
    I've lived in the US my whole life, over half a century, and have never come across a single instance of those scenarios.  Even electrical devices and wall sockets made well before I was born... nothing like what you describe.  Ever.
    I've only seen prongs snap off of a plug once in my life (in the past 50 years) and it was an incredibly cheap cord.

    Yes, outlets do loosen up over time, but hardly "quickly".  Usually these are outlets that have been in place for decades.  The one exception to this are outlets that see very heavy use (e.g. public outlets in airports).
    There are so many devices in every home that do (or could) run on DC power that perhaps building codes should be modified to provide DC power at every power outlet and this would ELIMINATE the need for AC/DC power converters for every future and existing device. But I forgot, that would require common sense.
    Just in case this wasn't meant as a joke...

    AC power was invented because it is not possible to efficiently transmit DC over long distances.  If homes were all converted to DC, you would need to install a large AC-DC converter where the line power enters each building.  While this might gain some efficiency over each home having dozens of separate power supplies, a converter that can handle the power requirements of an entire home will be large, expensive and probable also hot and loud.

    And, of course, it still doesn't deal with the fact that different devices need different voltages.  You aren't going to run your microwave oven off of 5v, and you aren't going to charge your phone off of 240v, so you're still going to need power adapters for your devices.  They'll have to be DC-DC converters instead of AC-DC converters, but they will still have to exist.

    Unless you want your home's bulk AC-DC converter to output all of the different voltages.  How many different kinds of outlets (hopefully with distinct non-interchangeable plugs) do you want in order to cover all of the different voltages required by everything in your home?
    fastasleepFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 90 of 118
    mrstepmrstep Posts: 483member
    I’m so happy the Brits said “enough of this [email protected] and left the EU. A bunch of idiots making decisions that entire countries and cultures need to adapt... sounds like a terrible idea. These fools have no idea what they’re even voting in.
    Unelected bureaucrats pushing asinine policies from on high. They couldn’t have timed this better to demonstrate why Brexit was the right call.
    elijahg
  • Reply 91 of 118
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,685member

    apple ][ said:
    The EU is not needed and is not relevant in the big scheme of things.
    Absolutely incredible — that's 28 European countries and over 500 million people (or 7% of the world population) you're talking about. You can't possibly be serious.
    22% of GDP, the US is approx 15% or so. Of course in a few hours ( this being Brexit day) that will reduce.

    That said I think the EU is wrong here. 

    apple ][ said:
    Apple, announce that you are only interested in serving the civilized world and that you are pulling out of the dictatorship known as the EU effective immediately!
    I would be ok with that, and I’ll be ok with the large hit that it takes on the stock price in the short term. My shares would be just fine with that. Sometimes you just have to take a stand against evil and do what’s right.
    Congrats to the smart brits who have left those clowns! Apple can continue to do business as usual in the UK, and I suggest that all the rest can go pound sound. I would be ok if the entire EU switched to using only Android phones. The EU is not needed and is not relevant in the big scheme of things.


    Evil because they want to change chargers? Where would that leave a country that's killed millions in the Middle East based on a tissue of lies. 


    edited January 2020 fastasleepFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 92 of 118
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,685member

    This is a typical protectionist action by EU parliamentarians. The Brits are lucky to have been able to escape from this heavy handed tactic.
    I’m so happy the Brits said “enough of this [email protected] and left the EU. A bunch of idiots making decisions that entire countries and cultures need to adapt... sounds like a terrible idea. These fools have no idea what they’re even voting in.
     
    Indeed. Except they haven't escaped from larger powers trying to bully them into protectionism, now have they. *

    * cough ** Huawei * cough ** 
    edited January 2020
  • Reply 93 of 118
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,685member
    As far as I know the parliament is merely advisory on these matters. Its up to the commission. Or the council. 

    One or the other. 
  • Reply 94 of 118
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,685member
    mrstep said:
    I’m so happy the Brits said “enough of this [email protected] and left the EU. A bunch of idiots making decisions that entire countries and cultures need to adapt... sounds like a terrible idea. These fools have no idea what they’re even voting in.
    Unelected bureaucrats pushing asinine policies from on high. They couldn’t have timed this better to demonstrate why Brexit was the right call.
    Literally an elected parliament. Literally. It's in the article.  The EU parliament. 
    fastasleepFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 95 of 118
    avon b7 said:
    sdw2001 said:
    The fact that the EU could force Apple and others to adopt a universal connector standard is unbelievable.  Government has no role in telling companies what they can make and how they should make it.  I'd like to see Apple and Samsung just give the EU the proverbial finger.  Tell them, 'we're doing what we think is right for our businesses.  If you don't like it, we'll pull out of the EU market entirely."   
    It is ironic that you mentioned Apple and Samsung. Both have a history of poorly designed cabling.
    Complete nonsense, as usual. Apple’s device cabling is excellent; particular in the MacBook line. Lightning is excellent and spurred USB-C. I also enjoy the particular plastic they use which has a spongier texture to resist tangling. I’ve tried Anker, Amazon, and Monoprice and had them all fail (busting apart, or simply ceasing to function for no apparent reason) sooner than my Apple stuff. 
  • Reply 96 of 118
    avon b7 said:
    sdw2001 said:
    The fact that the EU could force Apple and others to adopt a universal connector standard is unbelievable.  Government has no role in telling companies what they can make and how they should make it.  I'd like to see Apple and Samsung just give the EU the proverbial finger.  Tell them, 'we're doing what we think is right for our businesses.  If you don't like it, we'll pull out of the EU market entirely."   
    It is ironic that you mentioned Apple and Samsung. Both have a history of poorly designed cabling.
    Complete nonsense, as usual. Apple’s device cabling is excellent; particular in the MacBook line. Lightning is excellent and spurred USB-C. I also enjoy the particular plastic they use which has a spongier texture to resist tangling. I’ve tried Anker, Amazon, and Monoprice and had them all fail (busting apart, or simply ceasing to function for no apparent reason) sooner than my Apple stuff. 
    I use a lot of cables from Monoprice, everything from RCA to Lightning to HDMI.  Never have problems. Installed hundreds of their cables in broadcast, commercial and labs.
    elijahg
  • Reply 97 of 118
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,164member
    avon b7 said:
    sdw2001 said:
    The fact that the EU could force Apple and others to adopt a universal connector standard is unbelievable.  Government has no role in telling companies what they can make and how they should make it.  I'd like to see Apple and Samsung just give the EU the proverbial finger.  Tell them, 'we're doing what we think is right for our businesses.  If you don't like it, we'll pull out of the EU market entirely."   
    It is ironic that you mentioned Apple and Samsung. Both have a history of poorly designed cabling.
    Complete nonsense, as usual. Apple’s device cabling is excellent; particular in the MacBook line. Lightning is excellent and spurred USB-C. I also enjoy the particular plastic they use which has a spongier texture to resist tangling. I’ve tried Anker, Amazon, and Monoprice and had them all fail (busting apart, or simply ceasing to function for no apparent reason) sooner than my Apple stuff. 
    What!?

    Apple has come in for much criticism on cabling, notably requiring reinforcing cable attachments and fraying. Terminations are too small, not ergonomic and very slippery. It has been far from 'excellent'.
    MplsPelijahg
  • Reply 98 of 118
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,063member
    jimh2 said:


    apple ][ said:
    The EU is not needed and is not relevant in the big scheme of things.
    Absolutely incredible — that's 28 European countries and over 500 million people (or 7% of the world population) you're talking about. You can't possibly be serious.
    The original poster is correct...7% of the world is not relevant.
    So the equivalent of one and a half United States with a GDP of ~$16 trillion is not relevant in your minds? SERIOUSLY?

    If you say so.
    /serious eyeroll
    edited January 2020 MplsP
  • Reply 99 of 118
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,063member

    elijahg said:


    apple ][ said:
    The EU is not needed and is not relevant in the big scheme of things.
    Absolutely incredible — that's 28 European countries and over 500 million people (or 7% of the world population) you're talking about. You can't possibly be serious.
    He said the EU. He didn't say Europeans.
    The EU is a subset of (as of today) 27 European states out of 50. The demonym for the EU is "European". What the hell are you talking about? 
    MplsP
  • Reply 100 of 118
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,063member

    daven said:
    Am I missing something here? All phones can charge via usb. The only difference between them is the cord from the usb charger to the device which gets replaced fairly often because of fraying. 
    my thoughts also.

    Apple’s chargers are usb, the charger is standard. What is the wailing about from all corners. nothing is going to change.
    Me also. 

    What this is about is finally adopting the “Radio Equipment Directive” from 2014. This thing mentions chargers but no connectors or plugs. 
    Apple’s chargers for “radio equipment” have always used the stupidest boring standard USB  type A, and recently USB-C. The cables are consumables and mandating one type for all will do next to nothing to combat e-waste. 
    They are literally talking about the plugs on the phone and the cords' connectors that connect to them.
    Here https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2020-0070_EN.html connectors are literally not mentioned at all and cables are mentioned once when saying they should be recycled more. 
    It's both:

    "In summary, the most effective approach to addressing the consumer inconvenience that results from the continued existence of different (albeit mostly interoperable) charging solutions would be to pursue option 1 (common connectors) in combination with option 4 (interoperable external power supply)."

    and from Apple's protest:

    "Prior to 2009, the Commission considered mandating that all smartphones use only USB Micro-B connectors which would have restricted the advancement to Lightning and USB Type-C. Instead, the Commission established a voluntary, industry standards-based approach that saw the market shift from 30 chargers down to 3, soon to be two — Lightning and USB-C, showing this approach does work. 


    edited January 2020
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