Foxconn iPhone plant at Zhenghzou reopens with 10% of workforce

Posted:
in General Discussion
Apple supplier Foxconn is said to have reopened Zhenghzou, its most critical iPhone production plant, but only a tenth of the workforce has returned.

Foxconn employee production line


Following conflicting accounts over Chinese authorities either blocking Foxconn's factories reopening, or not, a new report says the most important plant at Zhenghzou has restarted production.

According to Reuters, Foxconn received permission on Monday to reopen its Zhenghzou facility.

It's not known what time Foxconn received permission, or whether it was able to open for a full daytime shift. Reports say, though, that only 10% of the workforce have returned so far.

While some number of Foxconn employees may have been away from the facility during the Lunar New Year holiday, in general the staff live in barracks on site. It's possible, then, that the 10% figure is the proportion of all Foxconn staff at all facilities, rather than a per-shift total solely at Zhenghzou.

Analyst Ming-Chi Kuo did recently estimate that disruption caused by the coronavirus, and continued concern over safety, would mean fewer workers returned than needed. He estimated that Zhenghzou would initially see between 40% and 60% of workers as the plant restarted.

Similarly, Kuo believes that the Shenzhen plant will see only between 30% and 50% of its total required workforce returning.

Of these two Foxconn plants, Zhenghzou is believed to be the most critical at the moment because it is were the majority of iPhone 11 and iPhone 11 Pro models are assembled. However, Shenzhen is thought to be where the forthcoming "iPhone 12" is being worked on, so delays now will have repercussions later.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 29
    I hope the Apple customers and shareholders are content with the fact that Apple products are manufactured by workers who live in the “barracks” on manufacturing sites. 

    To me, personally, this brings about some negative connotations, such as labor camps in a number of totalitarian countries, such as Germany and USSR. 

    Apple gadgets are really nice things to own and to use, but we normally don’t want to know how Apple is able to maintain such high profit margins. Knowing that millions of the Chinese work long shifts and sleep in barracks on site gives me a really bad taste about the duplicity and the hypocrisy of the Apple top management.  Apple’s logistical savvy turned these poor Chinese workers into human robots. Apple doesn’t want to invest a couple hundred billion dollars in building real robots that can assemble iPhones. Instead, Apple uses hundreds of billions of dollars to buy back shares while exploiting vulnerable people. 

    I don’t care that other companies may do the same. Apple bills itself as the most ethical corporation, yet when we learn what really is going on, the truth is quite the opposite. 

    Disclaimer, I use Apple electronic products exclusively unless there is no Apple product in a certain category. I am also a recent long-term shareholder but not anymore. The more I learn about how Apple outsourced all its “dirty business” to their contract manufacturers so that Apple can have a plausible deniability in how it gets such low manufacturing costs from its suppliers, the more I feel like I need to take a long shower because I’ve been complicit in Apple’s policies for so long. 
    edited February 2020 ElCapitan
  • Reply 2 of 29
    the other 90% are dead and its a cover up

    /fakenews

     :D 
  • Reply 3 of 29
    sirozha said:
     Apple doesn’t want to invest a couple hundred billion dollars in building real robots that can assemble iPhones. 

    so replacing people's jobs with robots is the great solution ?
    Apple providing jobs is why you don't want to buy Apple products or invest in aapl ?

    Workers travel across the country to work at Foxconn. The wages there are way higher than what they could get at other jobs. Some according to reports earn 10 times their parents incomes.

    (I belief in diversifying manufacturing and supply. But too often people's criticism of Apple's China operations is xenophobic racism masquerading as 'concern'. )
    seanjmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 4 of 29
    davewrite said:
    sirozha said:
     Apple doesn’t want to invest a couple hundred billion dollars in building real robots that can assemble iPhones. 

    so replacing people's jobs with robots is the great solution ?
    Apple providing jobs is why you don't want to buy Apple products or invest in aapl ?

    Workers travel across the country to work at Foxconn. The wages there are way higher than what they could get at other jobs. Some according to reports earn 10 times their parents incomes.

    (I belief in diversifying manufacturing and supply. But too often people's criticism of Apple's China operations is xenophobic racism masquerading as 'concern'. )
    It’s not the responsibility of Apple or its shareholders to provide jobs to the poor Chinese citizens. It’s the responsibility of the Chinese government. 

    Using the same logic, the slave owners justified slavery in the US, saying that their slaves have much better lives than they would have had in Africa had they not been captured and sold into slavery. I’m not kidding. The founding fathers who created this wonderful republic and wrote these wonderful documents like the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, etc. were all slave owners who thought of themselves as the most ethical human beings and for sure did not believe that them using slave labor was anything unethical. That includes people like George Washington. 

    So, keep things in perspective. What Apple is doing today is not much different from
    what slave owners did when they manufactured tobacco, cotton, and other crops with slave labor. 

    Apple’s logistical savvy depends on 21st century equivalent of slavery. 
  • Reply 5 of 29
    polymniapolymnia Posts: 1,080member
    davewrite said:
    sirozha said:
     Apple doesn’t want to invest a couple hundred billion dollars in building real robots that can assemble iPhones. 

    so replacing people's jobs with robots is the great solution ?
    Apple providing jobs is why you don't want to buy Apple products or invest in aapl ?

    Workers travel across the country to work at Foxconn. The wages there are way higher than what they could get at other jobs. Some according to reports earn 10 times their parents incomes.

    (I belief in diversifying manufacturing and supply. But too often people's criticism of Apple's China operations is xenophobic racism masquerading as 'concern'. )
    I agree we (speaking as an American) sometimes go overboard with our criticism. It also come off a little paternalistic. We just pat them on the head an say “why don’t your young workers do like ours do: open their organic free range haberdasheries operating in restored urban machine shops built in the 1920’s, where, coincidentally, these young worker’s great great grandparents toiled long hours doing repetitive, dangerous work while facing violent crackdowns on their efforts to unionize at the hands of law enforcement with the complicity of our democratic government.”

    not that I condone poor working conditions or government crackdowns, but let’s also try to see the decisions chinese workers make without our lenses of privilege we wear around all day. 
    davewrite
  • Reply 6 of 29
    @ SIROZHA Who in the world said that Apple had 'responsibility of Apple or its shareholders to provide jobs'? I'm saying your idea of "Apple should save the Chinese worker by using robots' lacks logic. Your argument is being unemployed is better than work? (And like I said Foxconn jobs are better than almost anywhere else they can get). That sounds just like xenophobia masquerading as concern. You mention slavery but you seemingly have no idea what that means. Slavery means 'no choice, by force'. Foxconn workers aren't forced to work there. Like I said some travel for hundreds of miles to work at Foxconn factories, they line up for days to get an interview. Equating that with slavery is ludicrous.
    edited February 2020 muthuk_vanalingamGG1
  • Reply 7 of 29
    polymniapolymnia Posts: 1,080member
    sirozha said:
    davewrite said:
    sirozha said:
     Apple doesn’t want to invest a couple hundred billion dollars in building real robots that can assemble iPhones. 

    so replacing people's jobs with robots is the great solution ?
    Apple providing jobs is why you don't want to buy Apple products or invest in aapl ?

    Workers travel across the country to work at Foxconn. The wages there are way higher than what they could get at other jobs. Some according to reports earn 10 times their parents incomes.

    (I belief in diversifying manufacturing and supply. But too often people's criticism of Apple's China operations is xenophobic racism masquerading as 'concern'. )
    It’s not the responsibility of Apple or its shareholders to provide jobs to the poor Chinese citizens. It’s the responsibility of the Chinese government. 

     


    I’m gonna push back on the idea that it’s the Chinese government’s job to find jobs for poor citizen’s. Is that really true? Maybe as an authoritarian regime, it is. If so, should it be? Shouldn’t the government be creating a legal & regulatory environment that is conducive to doing business while protecting vulnerable worker & environmental resources and enforcing those policies fairly & transparently?
  • Reply 8 of 29
    sirozha said:
    davewrite said:
    sirozha said:
     Apple doesn’t want to invest a couple hundred billion dollars in building real robots that can assemble iPhones. 

    so replacing people's jobs with robots is the great solution ?
    Apple providing jobs is why you don't want to buy Apple products or invest in aapl ?

    Workers travel across the country to work at Foxconn. The wages there are way higher than what they could get at other jobs. Some according to reports earn 10 times their parents incomes.

    (I belief in diversifying manufacturing and supply. But too often people's criticism of Apple's China operations is xenophobic racism masquerading as 'concern'. )
    It’s not the responsibility of Apple or its shareholders to provide jobs to the poor Chinese citizens. It’s the responsibility of the Chinese government. 

    Using the same logic, the slave owners justified slavery in the US, saying that their slaves have much better lives than they would have had in Africa had they not been captured and sold into slavery. I’m not kidding. The founding fathers who created this wonderful republic and wrote these wonderful documents like the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, etc. were all slave owners who thought of themselves as the most ethical human beings and for sure did not believe that them using slave labor was anything unethical. That includes people like George Washington. 

    So, keep things in perspective. What Apple is doing today is not much different from
    what slave owners did when they manufactured tobacco, cotton, and other crops with slave labor. 

    Apple’s logistical savvy depends on 21st century equivalent of slavery. 
    Worst comment I’ve ever read in these forums. 
    davewrite
  • Reply 9 of 29
    davewrite said:
    @ SIROZHA Who in the world said that Apple had 'responsibility of Apple or its shareholders to provide jobs'? I'm saying your idea of "Apple should save the Chinese worker by using robots' lacks logic. Your argument is being unemployed is better than work? (And like I said Foxconn jobs are better than almost anywhere else they can get). That sounds just like xenophobia masquerading as concern. You mention slavery but you seemingly have no idea what that means. Slavery means 'no choice, by force'. Foxconn workers aren't forced to work there. Like I said some travel for hundreds of miles to work at Foxconn factories, they line up for days to get an interview. Equating that with slavery is ludicrous.
    I never said Apple should save Chinese workers. It’s not the responsibility of Apple to save Chinese workers. Apple shouldn’t be in a business of bringing impoverished Chinese workers out of their villages and into the barracks of Foxconn manufacturing plants. 

    If Apple wants to be an ethical company, they shouldn’t rely on exploiting people who work for low wages just to stay alive. By the same token, it was not the responsibility of the European slave traders and American plantation owners to bring uncivilized Africans out of African rainforests into the shanties on their American plantations. At least, they gave them a roof over their head and a couple guaranteed meals per day, right? 

    Wrong! The only reason they did that was because slave labor turned tremendous profit for the slave traders and slave owners. The tremendous profits that Apple makes is the reason that they employ impoverished Chinese workers. Giving them place to sleep and a low wage so that they don’t go hungry is NOT the reason that Tim Cool devised this elaborate supply chain.  

    One could argue that 25 years ago, when Apple started outsourcing manufacturing to China, the technology was not there to build electronics by robots, and neither did Apple have the cash to invest billions of dollars into robotic manufacturing. However, today, Apple has all the money they need to make robotic manufacturing happen, and the technology is capable of robotic assembly lines. Nonetheless, Apple continues with its well established pattern of using cheap labor in China. 

    Let China figure out how to bring their citizens out of poverty. Apple can’t solve that problem for China. What Apple can do is to stop benefiting from the misery of millions of Chinese citizens and instead focus on bringing high-tech manufacturing jobs (like programming, maintaining, servicing, etc. robotic assembly lines) back to the citizens of the country where its HQ is located. We live in the 21st century. Manufacturing job doesn’t have to mean manual labor anymore. It could mean a high-tech and well-paid job of maintaining robots that do manufacturing. 

    I feel bad for the poor people in Africa, but I feel good that I’m not benefiting from exploiting their misery. I wish them the best. I can’t make their lives better, but I’m not benefiting from
    their misery either. 

    As an AAPL shareholder, I was benefiting from the misery of the poor Chinese. I’m not going to feel good because the corporation that I was a shareholder of enslaved them and gave them enough food to survive and a bunk in a barrack to rest between their long shifts. That’s horrible. That’s heartless. That’s Tim Cook. 
    edited February 2020
  • Reply 10 of 29
    ivanhivanh Posts: 597member
    Whenever you hold the next iPhone purchased,  you may smell the SO2 on it, or holding millions of “novel” coronavirus (remember the “new” iPad?) on it.  Well let’s forget politics, simply call it the CCPC / CCP Coronavirus / Chinese Communist Party Coronavirus or its original name: Wuhan Coronavirus. A deeper thought: what about calling it Made-in-China Coronavirus?
  • Reply 11 of 29
    polymnia said:
    sirozha said:
    davewrite said:
    sirozha said:
     Apple doesn’t want to invest a couple hundred billion dollars in building real robots that can assemble iPhones. 

    so replacing people's jobs with robots is the great solution ?
    Apple providing jobs is why you don't want to buy Apple products or invest in aapl ?

    Workers travel across the country to work at Foxconn. The wages there are way higher than what they could get at other jobs. Some according to reports earn 10 times their parents incomes.

    (I belief in diversifying manufacturing and supply. But too often people's criticism of Apple's China operations is xenophobic racism masquerading as 'concern'. )
    It’s not the responsibility of Apple or its shareholders to provide jobs to the poor Chinese citizens. It’s the responsibility of the Chinese government. 

     


    I’m gonna push back on the idea that it’s the Chinese government’s job to find jobs for poor citizen’s. Is that really true? Maybe as an authoritarian regime, it is. If so, should it be? Shouldn’t the government be creating a legal & regulatory environment that is conducive to doing business while protecting vulnerable worker & environmental resources and enforcing those policies fairly & transparently?
    It’s a good argument, but that’s a totally different discussion. Normally,  governments are responsible for making sure the citizens live in prosperity. How they do that is another thing. However, I agree with you that for us, as Americans, the whole concept of the government being concerned with the livelihoods of its citizens is a completely bizarre idea. It’s totally foreign to us that the government should devise a system where everyone has healthcare. I know. 

    That doesn’t change the fact that in all
    other developed countries governments, in fact, concern themselves with improving lives of their citizens and creating systems like universal healthcare that benefit everyone. 

    As for China, of course it’s a totalitarian country. So, be truthful with yourself why you are investing in AAPL: to benefit yourself by taking advantage of impoverished Chinese workers or to improve the lives of the impoverished Chinese workers by moving them from their villages into Foxconn barracks. 

    Those Europeans who invested in slave trading corporations in the 17th and 18th centuries may have also deluded themselves that they were helping to civilize primitive Africans by transporting them in slave ships from African rainforests to American plantations. The reality
    was quite different, though. They invested in slave trade to make tremendous profits by exploiting poor Africans. 
    edited February 2020
  • Reply 12 of 29
    Now on the topic of the progress of the war on Coronavirus:

    Beijing and Shanghai impose new controls on residents as China battles to contain coronavirus
    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3049891/beijing-and-shanghai-impose-new-controls-residents-china-battles
  • Reply 13 of 29
    Wow so many here bitten by the 'anti-racism' bug they've lost all sense.

    It is neither racist for Apple to contract work to China and leave the working conditions up to the Chinese partner nor racist to care about how those workers are treated and wish to hold Apple to a higher standard than what those workers receive.

    Realistically none of those issues would be different if Apple was off-shoring manufacturing to the Ukraine or Estonia, so the race of people concerned is pretty much entirely irrelevant.

    It isn't racist to care about people and it isn't racist to trust that other people can handle their own business.
    Gold-standards in ethical business does however mandate paying contractors sufficiently to enable them to remunerate their staff appropriately and provide safe and appropriate working conditions (and holding them to that commitment). Apple doesn't have to do that however (they don't need to be "gold standard" to still lead the pack), but I'd note they have gotten involved previously to lift working conditions and employee welfare at Foxconn previously. Notably when they were seeing worker suicides make international news.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 14 of 29
    polymniapolymnia Posts: 1,080member
    sirozha said:
    polymnia said:
    sirozha said:
    davewrite said:
    sirozha said:
     Apple doesn’t want to invest a couple hundred billion dollars in building real robots that can assemble iPhones. 

    so replacing people's jobs with robots is the great solution ?
    Apple providing jobs is why you don't want to buy Apple products or invest in aapl ?

    Workers travel across the country to work at Foxconn. The wages there are way higher than what they could get at other jobs. Some according to reports earn 10 times their parents incomes.

    (I belief in diversifying manufacturing and supply. But too often people's criticism of Apple's China operations is xenophobic racism masquerading as 'concern'. )
    It’s not the responsibility of Apple or its shareholders to provide jobs to the poor Chinese citizens. It’s the responsibility of the Chinese government. 

     


    I’m gonna push back on the idea that it’s the Chinese government’s job to find jobs for poor citizen’s. Is that really true? Maybe as an authoritarian regime, it is. If so, should it be? Shouldn’t the government be creating a legal & regulatory environment that is conducive to doing business while protecting vulnerable worker & environmental resources and enforcing those policies fairly & transparently?
    It’s a good argument, but that’s a totally different discussion. Normally,  governments are responsible for making sure the citizens live in prosperity. How they do that is another thing. However, I agree with you that for us, as Americans, the whole concept of the government being concerned with the livelihoods of its citizens is a completely bizarre idea. It’s totally foreign to us that the government should devise a system where everyone has healthcare. I know. 

    That doesn’t change the fact that in all
    other developed countries governments, in fact, concern themselves with improving lives of their citizens and creating systems like universal healthcare that benefit everyone. 

    As for China, of course it’s a totalitarian country. So, be truthful with yourself why you are investing in AAPL: to benefit yourself by taking advantage of impoverished Chinese workers or to improve the lives of the impoverished Chinese workers by moving them from their villages into Foxconn barracks. 

    Those Europeans who invested in slave trading corporations in the 17th and 18th centuries may have also deluded themselves that they were helping to civilize primitive Africans by transporting them in slave ships from African rainforests to American plantations. The reality
    was quite different, though. They invested in slave trade to make tremendous profits by exploiting poor Africans. 
    I see where you are going, and perhaps your original point that I focused on "It’s not the responsibility of Apple or its shareholders to provide jobs to the poor Chinese citizens. It’s the responsibility of the Chinese government. " wasn't exactly what you meant to say. I'm in full agreement that healthcare is an appropriate thing for government to provide (falls under "protect vulnerable workers" in my comment. I'm an American, so I don't take it for granted that the government will provide me healthcare, I'm also a business owner, so I actually write the check out every month for my family's insurance.

    Sticking with my original point, I don't think it should be the Chinese government's responsibility to find better jobs for individuals. This is the kind of thing that happened in Soviet-style communist countries and it didn't work out too well. The Chinese government, if they are not satisfied with the current job prospects of the Chinese industrial worker (not something I suspect they spend much time worrying about in their currently booming economy), should enact policies to protect their workers/environment. Then companies like Apple will have to decide if the higher cost of doing business in China is worth it. Maybe they will? At the same time, China should probably also work on encouraging other kinds of businesses to replace the type of industry that will likely exit the country since India, Thailand, Vietnam, etc would probably be overjoyed to take over the sweatshop device gadget assembly work if China was no longer interested/viable.
  • Reply 15 of 29
    lghulm said:
    Wow so many here bitten by the 'anti-racism' bug they've lost all sense.

    It is neither racist for Apple to contract work to China and leave the working conditions up to the Chinese partner nor racist to care about how those workers are treated and wish to hold Apple to a higher standard than what those workers receive.

    Realistically none of those issues would be different if Apple was off-shoring manufacturing to the Ukraine or Estonia, so the race of people concerned is pretty much entirely irrelevant.

    It isn't racist to care about people and it isn't racist to trust that other people can handle their own business.
    Gold-standards in ethical business does however mandate paying contractors sufficiently to enable them to remunerate their staff appropriately and provide safe and appropriate working conditions (and holding them to that commitment). Apple doesn't have to do that however (they don't need to be "gold standard" to still lead the pack), but I'd note they have gotten involved previously to lift working conditions and employee welfare at Foxconn previously. Notably when they were seeing worker suicides make international news.
    Agree with a lot of your points. However, Apple wouldn't be able to treat workers in Ukraine or especially Estonia the way that Foxconn treats their employees in China. People in Ukraine and Estonia have much better options than getting a bunk in a barrack, free meals, and working 12-14 hour shifts. 

    I'm not calling Apple or Tim Cook racists. They are unabashed capitalists who would exploit the weak and defenseless just to make a higher profit. I don't mind a corporation making a profit. I don't mind shareholders making money. However, don't pretend to run an ethical corporation when you know your suppliers exploit those who can't defend themselves. A lot of people who buy Apple products are under the impression that they pay a lot of money for something that not only works well but is also ethical. So, it does work well, it makes a lot of money for the shareholders (nothing wrong with that), but it's highly UNETHICAL (all the Apple's and Tim Cook's propaganda notwithstanding). 

    I like Apple products. With all the flaws that the software has and the bugs that Apple never seems to fix, there's still nothing out there that is better than what Apple makes. However, I would rather extend my iPhone replacement cycle by a year and buy a more expensive iPhone or Mac, knowing that those who make the products that I buy are paid well for their work. It doesn't make me want to buy another Apple product, knowing that these wonderful gadgets are built by people who are exploited like slaves, and the only difference between them and slaves is that they are free to leave (or not to return in this case). 
    edited February 2020
  • Reply 16 of 29
    polymnia said:
    sirozha said:
    polymnia said:
    sirozha said:
    davewrite said:
    sirozha said:
     Apple doesn’t want to invest a couple hundred billion dollars in building real robots that can assemble iPhones. 

    so replacing people's jobs with robots is the great solution ?
    Apple providing jobs is why you don't want to buy Apple products or invest in aapl ?

    Workers travel across the country to work at Foxconn. The wages there are way higher than what they could get at other jobs. Some according to reports earn 10 times their parents incomes.

    (I belief in diversifying manufacturing and supply. But too often people's criticism of Apple's China operations is xenophobic racism masquerading as 'concern'. )
    It’s not the responsibility of Apple or its shareholders to provide jobs to the poor Chinese citizens. It’s the responsibility of the Chinese government. 

     


    I’m gonna push back on the idea that it’s the Chinese government’s job to find jobs for poor citizen’s. Is that really true? Maybe as an authoritarian regime, it is. If so, should it be? Shouldn’t the government be creating a legal & regulatory environment that is conducive to doing business while protecting vulnerable worker & environmental resources and enforcing those policies fairly & transparently?
    It’s a good argument, but that’s a totally different discussion. Normally,  governments are responsible for making sure the citizens live in prosperity. How they do that is another thing. However, I agree with you that for us, as Americans, the whole concept of the government being concerned with the livelihoods of its citizens is a completely bizarre idea. It’s totally foreign to us that the government should devise a system where everyone has healthcare. I know. 

    That doesn’t change the fact that in all
    other developed countries governments, in fact, concern themselves with improving lives of their citizens and creating systems like universal healthcare that benefit everyone. 

    As for China, of course it’s a totalitarian country. So, be truthful with yourself why you are investing in AAPL: to benefit yourself by taking advantage of impoverished Chinese workers or to improve the lives of the impoverished Chinese workers by moving them from their villages into Foxconn barracks. 

    Those Europeans who invested in slave trading corporations in the 17th and 18th centuries may have also deluded themselves that they were helping to civilize primitive Africans by transporting them in slave ships from African rainforests to American plantations. The reality
    was quite different, though. They invested in slave trade to make tremendous profits by exploiting poor Africans. 
    I see where you are going, and perhaps your original point that I focused on "It’s not the responsibility of Apple or its shareholders to provide jobs to the poor Chinese citizens. It’s the responsibility of the Chinese government. " wasn't exactly what you meant to say. I'm in full agreement that healthcare is an appropriate thing for government to provide (falls under "protect vulnerable workers" in my comment. I'm an American, so I don't take it for granted that the government will provide me healthcare, I'm also a business owner, so I actually write the check out every month for my family's insurance.

    Sticking with my original point, I don't think it should be the Chinese government's responsibility to find better jobs for individuals. This is the kind of thing that happened in Soviet-style communist countries and it didn't work out too well. The Chinese government, if they are not satisfied with the current job prospects of the Chinese industrial worker (not something I suspect they spend much time worrying about in their currently booming economy), should enact policies to protect their workers/environment. Then companies like Apple will have to decide if the higher cost of doing business in China is worth it. Maybe they will? At the same time, China should probably also work on encouraging other kinds of businesses to replace the type of industry that will likely exit the country since India, Thailand, Vietnam, etc would probably be overjoyed to take over the sweatshop device gadget assembly work if China was no longer interested/viable.
    I happen to also be a business owner and also write a check for my insurance every month. Starting in April, my family monthly insurance premiums are going up to $1500/month, which is 12% higher than now. I also lived in the Soviet Union and later Russia half of my life, so I know what happened there. I can tell you that with all the downsides of a government-owned economy, everyone at least had free medical care and free education, including higher education (university/college level), and free graduate schools (master/doctorate level). But, I'm not speaking of the Chinese government as a pure communist government. Even though their ideology is communist, their economy is capitalist with a higher government control than in the US. It is absolutely the job of the Chinese government to pull their poor into the middle class. In fact, it's not I who is saying this; it's the Chinese government itself who made this one of their goals. They have achieved tremendous success in that regard. The Chinese middle class now well exceeds the entire population of the US. China has created a tremendous amount of wealth in the past 25-30 years since America and other Western countries started outsourcing manufacturing to China. The Chinese were able to copy and steal so much technology from the West that they are now able to  invent new things without having to steal intellectual property anymore. At  the same time, they acquired a tremendous amount of knowledge in manufacturing processes, while we, in the United States, have lost all of our ability to manufacture things domestically. 

    The Chinese government has done well for the Chinese citizens. They will continue to improve the livelihoods of the Chinese citizens. It's not the responsibility of Apple or any other US corporation to create jobs for the Chinese citizens, thus justifying having ridiculously low manufacturing costs. However, it should be the responsibility of Apple to be an ethical corporation by not using slave labor, and Apple is failing badly at this responsibility, even though they promote themselves as an ethical corporation. 
    edited February 2020 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 17 of 29
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    the other 90% are dead and its a cover up

    /fakenews

     :D 
    This might actually be the truth.  We can’t tell simply because China hasn’t been honest with the death rate.  

    The other reality is people are likely too scared to return to work.  
  • Reply 18 of 29
    wizard69 said:
    the other 90% are dead and its a cover up

    /fakenews

     :D 
    This might actually be the truth.  We can’t tell simply because China hasn’t been honest with the death rate.  

    The other reality is people are likely too scared to return to work.  
    The sense of panic I’m seeing on Twitter from people who live in the affected area seems to be increasing. I take it the heavy hand of their government is cracking down hard to contain this thing and it’s probably far worse than their government is letting on.
  • Reply 19 of 29
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    sirozha said:
    polymnia said:
    sirozha said:
    davewrite said:
    sirozha said:
     Apple doesn’t want to invest a couple hundred billion dollars in building real robots that can assemble iPhones. 

    so replacing people's jobs with robots is the great solution ?
    Apple providing jobs is why you don't want to buy Apple products or invest in aapl ?

    Workers travel across the country to work at Foxconn. The wages there are way higher than what they could get at other jobs. Some according to reports earn 10 times their parents incomes.

    (I belief in diversifying manufacturing and supply. But too often people's criticism of Apple's China operations is xenophobic racism masquerading as 'concern'. )
    It’s not the responsibility of Apple or its shareholders to provide jobs to the poor Chinese citizens. It’s the responsibility of the Chinese government. 

     


    I’m gonna push back on the idea that it’s the Chinese government’s job to find jobs for poor citizen’s. Is that really true? Maybe as an authoritarian regime, it is. If so, should it be? Shouldn’t the government be creating a legal & regulatory environment that is conducive to doing business while protecting vulnerable worker & environmental resources and enforcing those policies fairly & transparently?
    It’s a good argument, but that’s a totally different discussion. Normally,  governments are responsible for making sure the citizens live in prosperity. How they do that is another thing. However, I agree with you that for us, as Americans, the whole concept of the government being concerned with the livelihoods of its citizens is a completely bizarre idea. It’s totally foreign to us that the government should devise a system where everyone has healthcare. I know. 

    That doesn’t change the fact that in all
    other developed countries governments, in fact, concern themselves with improving lives of their citizens and creating systems like universal healthcare that benefit everyone. 

    As for China, of course it’s a totalitarian country. So, be truthful with yourself why you are investing in AAPL: to benefit yourself by taking advantage of impoverished Chinese workers or to improve the lives of the impoverished Chinese workers by moving them from their villages into Foxconn barracks. 

    Those Europeans who invested in slave trading corporations in the 17th and 18th centuries may have also deluded themselves that they were helping to civilize primitive Africans by transporting them in slave ships from African rainforests to American plantations. The reality
    was quite different, though. They invested in slave trade to make tremendous profits by exploiting poor Africans. 
    You really bruised your points by bringing in universal health care.   The fact of the matter is this universal health care only benefits the lazy!   I’ve yet to see a good reason why we should make life easy for the welfare crowd.  In fact it should be made even more difficult to the point of cutting all services for people not willing to work for the money.   If that means giving people on welfare a 10 pound hammer, to crush rocks in a quarry, then that is what we should be doing.  

    In a nut shell there is no excuse for the current system that rewards the lack of doing.  Instead we try to flood the lazy with freebies and hope nothing bad comes of their idle time after the playing of games expires.   Then people seriously wonder about the violence, drug use and other issues the welfare crowd suffers from.  
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 20 of 29
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    It is interesting that the subject of free meals has come up.  In the distant past I visited a plant in Brazil that served a highly subsidized meal for the workers at noon.  I thought it was a bit odd but in the end came to realize that it was one of the most appreciated “benefits” the plant offered.  Often it was the only good meal of the day for the workers.  

    Now that might upset some Americans that love To run out for lunch everyday but a little research will tell you this was a common practice in the US in the past.  What was really shocking though was the quality of the food served which was excellent.  Contrast this with the average American running out for mass produced burgers, pizza or subs at noon.  

    The point here is one of perspective.  What might seem strange in the USA is often considered to be an important part of the reason that somebody in a off shore location works at the location.  
    muthuk_vanalingam
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