Yes, owning and asserting patent rights IS a legitimate business. Patents are property. Why wouldn’t you assert your rights against an infringer? This hasn’t been a theoretical business advantage or potential liability in the entire history of the patent system. It’s real.
I think EsquireCats was mainly referring to a company waiting to assert their patent. Anyone who thinks these things through can see that some companies look for technologies that might possibly infringe on a patent they have no intention of ever developing, and then bring a lawsuit against that similar technology hoping the courts will rule in their favour.
That might be legal business but it’s not legitimate because it’s very far removed from the fundamental intention of patents.
From the point of view of government, the intent of the patent system is to provide legal protection for inventors or patent property holders for the expression of ideas to spur economic activity to broaden the tax base. It has done this. Whether or not products, devices, methods or services are actually created is beside the point. Economic activity, especially innovative activity TO GET AROUND existing patents is what makes the system so brilliant.
The U.S. Supreme Court can no longer be trusted to handle much more than a traffic ticket. Actually, they'd probably screw that up too.
Oh geez.... Good thing you don't hate and/or distrust everything US. Just anything having to do with government. Or media. Or anything counter to Chinese interests. /s
No, I just want a government that adheres to its own laws. Doesn't sound like it should be too much to ask.
No reason to discuss as you never wish to reveal the source of your claims when it comes to Chinese actions and policies. You toss out lots of character tags pinned on others interspersed with the occasional attempt at an insult when you've been shown to be wrong, but rarely any pointers to where we can read for ourselves the things you seem so certain of. Wouldn't that be a good way to prove your case, actual links to the things you claim to be fact?
Please don't waylay this discussion. Start another thread here or elsewhere and this liberal-leaning but 100% independent child of the 60's will be happen to join you in an honest debate, just point me where it is. This thread isn't it.
The U.S. Supreme Court can no longer be trusted to handle much more than a traffic ticket. Actually, they'd probably screw that up too.
Oh geez.... Good thing you don't hate and/or distrust everything US. Just anything having to do with government. Or media. Or anything counter to Chinese interests. /s
No, I just want a government that adheres to its own laws. Doesn't sound like it should be too much to ask.
No reason to discuss as you never wish to reveal the source of your claims when it comes to Chinese actions and policies. You offer lots of character tags interspersed with insults but rarely any pointers to where we can read for ourselves the things you seem so certain of. Please don't waylay this one. Start another thread here or elsewhere and I'l, be happen to join you in an honest debate, just point me where it is. This thread isn't it.
He’s an apologist for the Chinese government and I blocked his nonsense.
Yes, owning and asserting patent rights IS a legitimate business. Patents are property. Why wouldn’t you assert your rights against an infringer? This hasn’t been a theoretical business advantage or potential liability in the entire history of the patent system. It’s real.
I think EsquireCats was mainly referring to a company waiting to assert their patent. Anyone who thinks these things through can see that some companies look for technologies that might possibly infringe on a patent they have no intention of ever developing, and then bring a lawsuit against that similar technology hoping the courts will rule in their favour.
That might be legal business but it’s not legitimate because it’s very far removed from the fundamental intention of patents.
No, it's not. A patent is a limited monopoly. When the patent expires, the monopoly is over and the invention is fair game for everyone. That the inventor must somehow "develop" (by which you probably mean commercialize) the patent is BS. You can invent it and sell it like any other property you own. And the buyer then acquires all the same legal rights the original patent holder had for the life of the patent. The whole world agrees with this method. Why is it so hard for you?
Yes, owning and asserting patent rights IS a legitimate business. Patents are property. Why wouldn’t you assert your rights against an infringer? This hasn’t been a theoretical business advantage or potential liability in the entire history of the patent system. It’s real.
I think EsquireCats was mainly referring to a company waiting to assert their patent. Anyone who thinks these things through can see that some companies look for technologies that might possibly infringe on a patent they have no intention of ever developing, and then bring a lawsuit against that similar technology hoping the courts will rule in their favour.
That might be legal business but it’s not legitimate because it’s very far removed from the fundamental intention of patents.
No, it's not. A patent is a limited monopoly. When the patent expires, the monopoly is over and the invention is fair game for everyone. That the inventor must somehow "develop" (by which you probably mean commercialize) the patent is BS. You can invent it and sell it like any other property you own. And the buyer then acquires all the same legal rights the original patent holder had for the life of the patent. The whole world agrees with this method. Why is it so hard for you?
Finally someone who knows what they're talking about. Patent law is not a feeling or subjective, there is a very strict interpretation. In exchange for releasing your invention publically you get 20 yrs of exclusivity before it enters the public domain. Companies large and small do due diligence on their product to make sure they are not infringing on anyone else's IP (and vice versa). Either Apple did a poor job at that or just thought they were big enough that they could skirt the law. Doesn't matter who owns the patent, they have the right to defend it while it is still active. It is taken so seriously, that if the court determines that you willfully infringed on someone's patent, they can award triple the damages (treble damages) along with court and lawyer fees. During the discovery phase they can subpoena every notebook you wrote in and every email you sent and if you even hint that you might be infringing on a patent, you are likely done for. Even in my small company we receive significant training on not to comment or make a judgment on patentability or infringement. Anything and everything will end up in court. Apple is simply not above the law.
It is a lot of money, but like any company, Apple will pass the cost on to consumers (us).
From what I have read, this is a tax that goes to VirnetX, a NPE that makes nothing, for questionable patents, enabled by Texas courts, and collected by Apple.
And now the Supreme court has said it does not want to get involved.
It is a lot of money, but like any company, Apple will pass the cost on to consumers (us).
From what I have read, this is a tax that goes to VirnetX, a NPE that makes nothing, for questionable patents, enabled by Texas courts, and collected by Apple.
And now the Supreme court has said it does not want to get involved.
Got it.
It is less than 0.2% of Apple's annual revenue. You'll live.
VirnetX has expansive IP that Apple refused to license at a reasonable market established royalty of 80 cents per device for providing end to end VPN security and automatically encrypted Facetime (seems very reasonable). They are now paying an aggregate of $1.20- $1.40 per device and wasted another $100 million in legal fees over 10 years.
Apple was shown not only to infringe but to be a willful infringer. They also purposely wasted the resources of the court and were sanctioned for it. In addition, it is also alleged (and there does seem to be evidence) of Apple abusing the IPR system at the USPTO by creating partnership companies and making investments in Mangrove Partners and their Black Swamp Ventures Subsidiary with RPX so they could re-litigate against VirnetX after Apple lost their appeals. They also had an Apple engineer admit in a deposition that Apple knew about the VirnetX as SAIC IP and those patents before they tried to get their own patents through that were ultimately denied by the USPTO because of VirnetX prior Art.
This behavior went on for 10 years. VirnetX not only prevailed in Apple 1 (this SCOTUS case) but won awards in Apple 2, 3 and 4 (for about $1.1 Billion) that are going through appeals now but look likely to be ruled in VirnetX. Tim Cook and Apple tried to make a mockery of the justice system and in a large part did until SCOTUS today said enough.
The argument over property rights in the united state is clear. Patents are property. Remember we have seen patent suits filed by Apple and Samsung over the thing as trivial as the shape of the iPhone!
VirnetX has viable and legitimate technology that hundreds of people worked on from their SAIC days, and those property rights can't be ignored - they are owned by VirnetX. Apple was proved to be a willful infringer meaning they KNEW what they were doing WAS WORNG and they infringed anyway because. The truth is they intended to keep this in courts for decades (which they did) and bleed Virnetx financially (which they also did) but justice still prevailed.
Apple .. "pay him, pay that man his money".
ADDED - From VirnetX CEO today...
"We are extremely pleased with the Supreme Court's decision not to hear Apple's writ of certiorari," said Kendall Larsen , VirnetX CEO and President. "It has taken us 10 long years, 4 successful jury trials, 2 successful Appellate Court rulings and a favorable Supreme Court decision to get here. We believe in the fairness of the American justice system and have respectfully played by its rules no matter how arduous. We trust Apple will honor the decisions rendered by our courts and their esteemed judges and honor an agreement to abide by the court's decision."
"We are a small company with valuable security technology. The inventors of that technology have senior level positions at VirnetX. It has always been our objective to create our own products with our proprietary technology. Unfortunately, when other companies are using your technology without permission, you must take action to protect that company asset," continued Kendall Larsen . "We have always believed that we were in the right with our court actions against Apple. Four juries and countless judges agree. We believe that our technology provides an important security feature in some Apple products especially the iPhone. The jury award we received and confirmed by Federal judges, is less than a quarter of one percent of the cost of an iPhone. We believe this amount is more than fair considering the importance of Internet security."
New poster, first post. What is your position at VirnetX?
It is a lot of money, but like any company, Apple will pass the cost on to consumers (us).
From what I have read, this is a tax that goes to VirnetX, a NPE that makes nothing, for questionable patents, enabled by Texas courts, and collected by Apple.
And now the Supreme court has said it does not want to get involved.
Got it.
Well... As pointed out by the VirnetX CEO, four separate jury trials and a number of judges have determined that Apple is in the wrong. The justice system, while flawed, is the best system our society has for determining the truth of a matter. This process is now, for all intents and purposes, completed and the judgement is final.
There remains the possibility that the justice system got it wrong, but (a) it's a small possibility and (b) the costs of further argument outweigh the potential benefit of arriving at a (possibly) different truth.
The argument over property rights in the united state is clear. Patents are property. Remember we have seen patent suits filed by Apple and Samsung over the thing as trivial as the shape of the iPhone!
Remember we have seen patent suits filed by Creative over the thing as trivial as the ability to navigate from an artist to an album to a song!
The U.S. Supreme Court can no longer be trusted to handle much more than a traffic ticket. Actually, they'd probably screw that up too.
Oh geez.... Good thing you don't hate and/or distrust everything US. Just anything having to do with government. Or media. Or anything counter to Chinese interests. /s
No, I just want a government that adheres to its own laws. Doesn't sound like it should be too much to ask.
No reason to discuss as you never wish to reveal the source of your claims when it comes to Chinese actions and policies. You toss out lots of character tags pinned on others interspersed with the occasional attempt at an insult when you've been shown to be wrong, but rarely any pointers to where we can read for ourselves the things you seem so certain of. Wouldn't that be a good way to prove your case, actual links to the things you claim to be fact?
Please don't waylay this discussion. Start another thread here or elsewhere and this liberal-leaning but 100% independent child of the 60's will be happen to join you in an honest debate, just point me where it is. This thread isn't it.
You mean like Google searches? Nah. I avoid Google for all things -- including using it to prove some crazy ideological point. I'll stick to truth and reality.
The U.S. Supreme Court can no longer be trusted to handle much more than a traffic ticket. Actually, they'd probably screw that up too.
Oh geez.... Good thing you don't hate and/or distrust everything US. Just anything having to do with government. Or media. Or anything counter to Chinese interests. /s
No, I just want a government that adheres to its own laws. Doesn't sound like it should be too much to ask.
No reason to discuss as you never wish to reveal the source of your claims when it comes to Chinese actions and policies. You offer lots of character tags interspersed with insults but rarely any pointers to where we can read for ourselves the things you seem so certain of. Please don't waylay this one. Start another thread here or elsewhere and I'l, be happen to join you in an honest debate, just point me where it is. This thread isn't it.
He’s an apologist for the Chinese government and I blocked his nonsense.
i understand how you find FauxNews comforting. It tells you what you want to hear: right wing propaganda. And that you find reality and actual truth confusing.
It is a lot of money, but like any company, Apple will pass the cost on to consumers (us).
From what I have read, this is a tax that goes to VirnetX, a NPE that makes nothing, for questionable patents, enabled by Texas courts, and collected by Apple.
And now the Supreme court has said it does not want to get involved.
Got it.
Well... As pointed out by the VirnetX CEO, four separate jury trials and a number of judges have determined that Apple is in the wrong. The justice system, while flawed, is the best system our society has for determining the truth of a matter. This process is now, for all intents and purposes, completed and the judgement is final.
There remains the possibility that the justice system got it wrong, but (a) it's a small possibility and (b) the costs of further argument outweigh the potential benefit of arriving at a (possibly) different truth.
I think we've heard enough tales of folk being released after serving near-lifetime sentences for crimes they did not commit, following one appeal after another. The problem usually lies in the prisoner's belief that the justice system would seek justice, rather than admitting that a mistake had been made.
Not necessarily what's happening in this case, but a court decision is no guarantee of actual innocence or guilt.
Still, with no recourse left, Apple has little choice but to pay up and find a way to work around it (if possible).
The U.S. Supreme Court can no longer be trusted to handle much more than a traffic ticket. Actually, they'd probably screw that up too.
Oh geez.... Good thing you don't hate and/or distrust everything US. Just anything having to do with government. Or media. Or anything counter to Chinese interests. /s
No, I just want a government that adheres to its own laws. Doesn't sound like it should be too much to ask.
No reason to discuss as you never wish to reveal the source of your claims when it comes to Chinese actions and policies. You toss out lots of character tags pinned on others interspersed with the occasional attempt at an insult when you've been shown to be wrong, but rarely any pointers to where we can read for ourselves the things you seem so certain of. Wouldn't that be a good way to prove your case, actual links to the things you claim to be fact?
Please don't waylay this discussion. Start another thread here or elsewhere and this liberal-leaning but 100% independent child of the 60's will be happen to join you in an honest debate, just point me where it is. This thread isn't it.
You mean like Google searches? Nah. I avoid Google for all things
Nope. I mean like YOUR searches and sources of Chinese news. I'd like to read them (or hear them) for myself. I have two friends fluent in Mandarin (actually one is more employee than a friend but whatever) so if your information is provided from official Chinese authority it shouldn't be a major impediment for me. Would you mind sharing your information sources? Tagging everything that disagrees with you as "right wing ideology" isn't exactly a source.
VirnetX has expansive IP that Apple refused to license at a reasonable market established royalty of 80 cents per device for providing end to end VPN security and automatically encrypted Facetime (seems very reasonable). They are now paying an aggregate of $1.20- $1.40 per device and wasted another $100 million in legal fees over 10 years.
Apple was shown not only to infringe but to be a willful infringer. They also purposely wasted the resources of the court and were sanctioned for it. In addition, it is also alleged (and there does seem to be evidence) of Apple abusing the IPR system at the USPTO by creating partnership companies and making investments in Mangrove Partners and their Black Swamp Ventures Subsidiary with RPX so they could re-litigate against VirnetX after Apple lost their appeals. They also had an Apple engineer admit in a deposition that Apple knew about the VirnetX as SAIC IP and those patents before they tried to get their own patents through that were ultimately denied by the USPTO because of VirnetX prior Art.
This behavior went on for 10 years. VirnetX not only prevailed in Apple 1 (this SCOTUS case) but won awards in Apple 2, 3 and 4 (for about $1.1 Billion) that are going through appeals now but look likely to be ruled in VirnetX. Tim Cook and Apple tried to make a mockery of the justice system and in a large part did until SCOTUS today said enough.
The argument over property rights in the united state is clear. Patents are property. Remember we have seen patent suits filed by Apple and Samsung over the thing as trivial as the shape of the iPhone!
VirnetX has viable and legitimate technology that hundreds of people worked on from their SAIC days, and those property rights can't be ignored - they are owned by VirnetX. Apple was proved to be a willful infringer meaning they KNEW what they were doing WAS WORNG and they infringed anyway because. The truth is they intended to keep this in courts for decades (which they did) and bleed Virnetx financially (which they also did) but justice still prevailed.
Apple .. "pay him, pay that man his money".
ADDED - From VirnetX CEO today...
"We are extremely pleased with the Supreme Court's decision not to hear Apple's writ of certiorari," said Kendall Larsen , VirnetX CEO and President. "It has taken us 10 long years, 4 successful jury trials, 2 successful Appellate Court rulings and a favorable Supreme Court decision to get here. We believe in the fairness of the American justice system and have respectfully played by its rules no matter how arduous. We trust Apple will honor the decisions rendered by our courts and their esteemed judges and honor an agreement to abide by the court's decision."
"We are a small company with valuable security technology. The inventors of that technology have senior level positions at VirnetX. It has always been our objective to create our own products with our proprietary technology. Unfortunately, when other companies are using your technology without permission, you must take action to protect that company asset," continued Kendall Larsen . "We have always believed that we were in the right with our court actions against Apple. Four juries and countless judges agree. We believe that our technology provides an important security feature in some Apple products especially the iPhone. The jury award we received and confirmed by Federal judges, is less than a quarter of one percent of the cost of an iPhone. We believe this amount is more than fair considering the importance of Internet security."
New poster, first post. What is your position at VirnetX?
What’s the difference? Apple blew it on this one and it was an obvious screw-up.
The U.S. Supreme Court can no longer be trusted to handle much more than a traffic ticket. Actually, they'd probably screw that up too.
Oh geez.... Good thing you don't hate and/or distrust everything US. Just anything having to do with government. Or media. Or anything counter to Chinese interests. /s
No, I just want a government that adheres to its own laws. Doesn't sound like it should be too much to ask.
No reason to discuss as you never wish to reveal the source of your claims when it comes to Chinese actions and policies. You toss out lots of character tags pinned on others interspersed with the occasional attempt at an insult when you've been shown to be wrong, but rarely any pointers to where we can read for ourselves the things you seem so certain of. Wouldn't that be a good way to prove your case, actual links to the things you claim to be fact?
Please don't waylay this discussion. Start another thread here or elsewhere and this liberal-leaning but 100% independent child of the 60's will be happen to join you in an honest debate, just point me where it is. This thread isn't it.
You mean like Google searches? Nah. I avoid Google for all things
Nope. I mean like YOUR searches and sources of Chinese news. I'd like to read them (or hear them) for myself. I have two friends fluent in Mandarin (actually one is more employee than a friend but whatever) so if your information is provided from official Chinese authority it shouldn't be a major impediment for me. Would you mind sharing your information sources? Tagging everything that disagrees with you as "right wing ideology" isn't exactly a source.
Why even bother with that guy? He’s a pro-China propaganda peddler.
The U.S. Supreme Court can no longer be trusted to handle much more than a traffic ticket. Actually, they'd probably screw that up too.
Oh geez.... Good thing you don't hate and/or distrust everything US. Just anything having to do with government. Or media. Or anything counter to Chinese interests. /s
No, I just want a government that adheres to its own laws. Doesn't sound like it should be too much to ask.
No reason to discuss as you never wish to reveal the source of your claims when it comes to Chinese actions and policies. You toss out lots of character tags pinned on others interspersed with the occasional attempt at an insult when you've been shown to be wrong, but rarely any pointers to where we can read for ourselves the things you seem so certain of. Wouldn't that be a good way to prove your case, actual links to the things you claim to be fact?
Please don't waylay this discussion. Start another thread here or elsewhere and this liberal-leaning but 100% independent child of the 60's will be happen to join you in an honest debate, just point me where it is. This thread isn't it.
You mean like Google searches? Nah. I avoid Google for all things
Nope. I mean like YOUR searches and sources of Chinese news. I'd like to read them (or hear them) for myself. I have two friends fluent in Mandarin (actually one is more employee than a friend but whatever) so if your information is provided from official Chinese authority it shouldn't be a major impediment for me. Would you mind sharing your information sources? Tagging everything that disagrees with you as "right wing ideology" isn't exactly a source.
Why even bother with that guy? He’s a pro-China propaganda peddler.
Figured I'd at least let him know why he was being ignored now. Not blocked. Ignored.
Comments
Please don't waylay this discussion. Start another thread here or elsewhere and this liberal-leaning but 100% independent child of the 60's will be happen to join you in an honest debate, just point me where it is. This thread isn't it.
What the fuck did they ever do to deserve $400M? How has this company affected the lives of a SINGLE human being? They've done jackshit.
What a fucking joke of a legal system.
Long Time Passing ...
There remains the possibility that the justice system got it wrong, but (a) it's a small possibility and (b) the costs of further argument outweigh the potential benefit of arriving at a (possibly) different truth.
https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-settles-with-creative-for-100-million-1/
You mean like Google searches? Nah. I avoid Google for all things -- including using it to prove some crazy ideological point. I'll stick to truth and reality.
i understand how you find FauxNews comforting. It tells you what you want to hear: right wing propaganda. And that you find reality and actual truth confusing.
Not necessarily what's happening in this case, but a court decision is no guarantee of actual innocence or guilt.
Still, with no recourse left, Apple has little choice but to pay up and find a way to work around it (if possible).