US Supreme Court upholds VirnetX's $439M patent win over Apple

Posted:
in General Discussion edited February 2020
Despite a last-minute argument from Apple that the judgment was "exceedingly unjust," the US Supreme Court has refused to allow a further appeal in the company's dispute with VirnetX.

FaceTime, an Apple technology at the center of some of VirnetX's patent infringement lawsuits
FaceTime, an Apple technology at the center of some of VirnetX's patent infringement lawsuits


Justices in the US Supreme Court decided on Monday to refuse Apple an appeal over paying $439m to VirnetX in a patent dispute. Apple had maintained that it would be "exceedingly unjust" if the 2017 judgment was upheld, because it involves patents that have subsequently been invalidated.

Ahead of the Supreme Court's ruling, Apple's latest argument was that Rule 60(b) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure say that such a judgment cannot be brought in a patent case such as this.

"Rule 60(b) relief is appropriate to ensure that VirnetX cannot recover a massive damages judgment for patent claims that are necessarily unpatentable," said Apple's motion, according to a Law360 account of court filings last week..

The original judgment concerned Apple's infringing of patents belonging to VirnetX in software, including FaceTime and Messages, since 2010. Apple has previously maintained that this verdict is "legally wrong and grossly unfair."

Apple argued that FaceTime infringement should not be counted. "It would be exceedingly unjust for Apple to pay a judgment based on claims that never should have been issued in the first place," continues the new motion.

VirnetX disputes Apple's claims that certain patents have been invalidated, however.

Even if the infringing FaceTime components were discounted, VirnetX would still be owed for Apple's VPN On Demand products. In its latest appeal, Apple had asked for a new trial based only on the non-invalidated patents.

The Supreme Court was scheduled to begin considering the appeal on Friday, February 21, and Apple filed this latest motion only the day before. The company did so, it claimed, in order to "avoid burdening the court with a Rule 60(b) motion that would be unnecessary to resolve" if the appeal were granted.

Including both the original trial and the subsequent appeals, the case between Apple and VirnetX is based on a dispute that now dates back for a decade. It appeared to be resolved in VirnetX's favor in April 2018, when Apple was then ordered to pay $502.6m.

Neither Apple nor VirnetX have commented on the US Supreme Court's decision.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 44
    I think someone working on Apple’s legal team needs to be fired.
    spock1234
  • Reply 2 of 44
    I think someone working on Apple’s legal team needs to be fired.
    Apple hired a different legal team about 2 years or so ago because that law firm wasn't able to get this case thrown out. This one is clearly also not up to snuff. It's clear all Apple is doing is delaying the inevitable at this point because the legal system is allowing them to do so.
  • Reply 3 of 44
    vr0513 said:
    I think someone working on Apple’s legal team needs to be fired.
    Apple hired a different legal team about 2 years or so ago because that law firm wasn't able to get this case thrown out. This one is clearly also not up to snuff. It's clear all Apple is doing is delaying the inevitable at this point because the legal system is allowing them to do so.
    They’re not delaying anything now. They lost.
    chemengin1
  • Reply 4 of 44
    Watch VirnetX's "Gabriel Collaboration Suite" quietly disappear after they win their settlement.  That product has zero customers and only exists to show that they have an implementation of their overly broad patents.
    Beats
  • Reply 5 of 44
    Ignoring the merit of the case/s themselves.

    Doesn’t this speak poorly of the patent system if large awards are possible through such means. Especially as we enter an era of more and more complex devices. 

    The consequences of this are obvious: it’s a green light for collecting and asserting patents as an effective and lucrative business model. 

    Those companies are effectively enacting private retrospective taxes on consumer products, while themselves not contributing to society and the system providing little recourse to the targeted companies since the patent holder has no products to challenge and can easily establish further companies if drained of funds. 

    The fact that a patent holder can quietly stand by and wait until a patent is fully entrenched into a range of products is a total abuse of the meaning of patents, that’s not in any sense protection. Especially as the company itself never attempts to do anything else with the patents in question. 

    politicalslugspock1234
  • Reply 6 of 44
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    esummers said:
    Watch VirnetX's "Gabriel Collaboration Suite" quietly disappear after they win their settlement.  That product has zero customers and only exists to show that they have an implementation of their overly broad patents.

    That's it. I'm patenting "brain to device communication" so I can sue everything in the future and maybe retroactively sue game consoles since you passively use your brain for input.
    spock1234
  • Reply 7 of 44
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,591member
    Beats said:
    esummers said:
    Watch VirnetX's "Gabriel Collaboration Suite" quietly disappear after they win their settlement.  That product has zero customers and only exists to show that they have an implementation of their overly broad patents.

    That's it. I'm patenting "brain to device communication" so I can sue everything in the future and maybe retroactively sue game consoles since you passively use your brain for input.
    Apple might already have applied for a patent, the critical term being "applied for". ;) 
    edited February 2020
  • Reply 8 of 44
    Ignoring the merit of the case/s themselves.

    Doesn’t this speak poorly of the patent system if large awards are possible through such means. Especially as we enter an era of more and more complex devices. 

    The consequences of this are obvious: it’s a green light for collecting and asserting patents as an effective and lucrative business model. 

    Those companies are effectively enacting private retrospective taxes on consumer products, while themselves not contributing to society and the system providing little recourse to the targeted companies since the patent holder has no products to challenge and can easily establish further companies if drained of funds. 

    The fact that a patent holder can quietly stand by and wait until a patent is fully entrenched into a range of products is a total abuse of the meaning of patents, that’s not in any sense protection. Especially as the company itself never attempts to do anything else with the patents in question. 

    Yes, owning and asserting patent rights IS a legitimate business. Patents are property. Why wouldn’t you assert your rights against an infringer? This hasn’t been a theoretical business advantage or potential liability in the entire history of the patent system. It’s real.
    edited February 2020 beowulfschmidtronn
  • Reply 9 of 44
    Apple should buy the company. It is publicly traded with a market cap of 384M it is less than the award is, even after todays 15% bump.  Apple buys them for their "IP" and doesn't have to pay the fine.  
    I know Apple does not want to give in to scams like this but in this case it is better to avoid future ligation with this company.
    If this is not what billions of cash on hand is for I don't know what is.

    jony0
  • Reply 10 of 44
    doggone said:
    Apple should buy the company. It is publicly traded with a market cap of 384M it is less than the award is, even after todays 15% bump.  Apple buys them for their "IP" and doesn't have to pay the fine.  
    I know Apple does not want to give in to scams like this but in this case it is better to avoid future ligation with this company.
    If this is not what billions of cash on hand is for I don't know what is.

    Would be better that Apple own these patents than Samsung, but when do they expire?
  • Reply 11 of 44
    vr0513 said:
    I think someone working on Apple’s legal team needs to be fired.
    Apple hired a different legal team about 2 years or so ago because that law firm wasn't able to get this case thrown out. This one is clearly also not up to snuff. It's clear all Apple is doing is delaying the inevitable at this point because the legal system is allowing them to do so.
    They’re not delaying anything now. They lost.
    If I understand correctly they technically have 1 more appeal on this case. There is nothing in this particular case left to appeal, but it essentially extends the case by another 30 days or so. That would be delaying the inevitable. If Apple does appeal, all it would accomplish is add 30 days of interest on the $440 million + interest payout.
    ronn
  • Reply 12 of 44
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    The U.S. Supreme Court can no longer be trusted to handle much more than a traffic ticket.  Actually, they'd probably screw that up too.
    teejay2012
  • Reply 13 of 44
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,591member
    The U.S. Supreme Court can no longer be trusted to handle much more than a traffic ticket.  Actually, they'd probably screw that up too.
    Oh geez.... Good thing you don't hate and/or distrust everything US. Just anything having to do with government. Or media.  Or anything counter to Chinese interests.  /s
    edited February 2020 ronnFileMakerFellerchemengin1Carnage
  • Reply 14 of 44
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    doggone said:
    Apple should buy the company. It is publicly traded with a market cap of 384M it is less than the award is, even after todays 15% bump.  Apple buys them for their "IP" and doesn't have to pay the fine.  
    I know Apple does not want to give in to scams like this but in this case it is better to avoid future ligation with this company.
    If this is not what billions of cash on hand is for I don't know what is.

    In a way wouldn't this encourage more trolls in hopes to be acquired?

    I'm thinking of making a non-practicing company and write patents all day and wait for someone to acquire us or license our patents. $$$
  • Reply 15 of 44

    Yes, owning and asserting patent rights IS a legitimate business. Patents are property. Why wouldn’t you assert your rights against an infringer? This hasn’t been a theoretical business advantage or potential liability in the entire history of the patent system. It’s real.
    I think EsquireCats was mainly referring to a company waiting to assert their patent. Anyone who thinks these things through can see that some companies look for technologies that might possibly infringe on a patent they have no intention of ever developing, and then bring a lawsuit against that similar technology hoping the courts will rule in their favour.

    That might be legal business but it’s not legitimate because it’s very far removed from the fundamental intention of patents.
    edited February 2020 EsquireCatsspock1234
  • Reply 16 of 44
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,591member
    georgie01 said:

    Yes, owning and asserting patent rights IS a legitimate business. Patents are property. Why wouldn’t you assert your rights against an infringer? This hasn’t been a theoretical business advantage or potential liability in the entire history of the patent system. It’s real.
    I think EsquireCats was mainly referring to a company waiting to assert their patent. Anyone who thinks these things through can see that some companies look for technologies that might possibly infringe on a patent they have no intention of ever developing, and then bring a lawsuit against that similar technology hoping the courts will rule in their favour.

    That might be legal business but it’s not legitimate because it’s very far removed from the fundamental intention of patents.
    Even Apple patents "inventions" they have no intention of using themselves in a shipping product. They've also been known to sue companies over smartphone patents they themselves do not use on the iPhone IIRC from the Samsung trial. 

    Sometimes patents are roundly praised here on AI while other times they're ridiculed. Depends I suppose on who did the patenting?
    edited February 2020 revenantmuthuk_vanalingamCarnage
  • Reply 17 of 44
    gatorguy said:
    georgie01 said:

    Yes, owning and asserting patent rights IS a legitimate business. Patents are property. Why wouldn’t you assert your rights against an infringer? This hasn’t been a theoretical business advantage or potential liability in the entire history of the patent system. It’s real.
    I think EsquireCats was mainly referring to a company waiting to assert their patent. Anyone who thinks these things through can see that some companies look for technologies that might possibly infringe on a patent they have no intention of ever developing, and then bring a lawsuit against that similar technology hoping the courts will rule in their favour.

    That might be legal business but it’s not legitimate because it’s very far removed from the fundamental intention of patents.
    Even Apple patents "inventions" they have no intention of using themselves in a shipping product. They've also been known to sue companies over smartphone patents they themselves do not use on the iPhone IIRC from the Samsung trial. 

    Sometimes patents are roundly praised here on AI while other times they're ridiculed. Depends I suppose on who did the patenting?
    The point I make is as Georgie01 outlines, the intention of the patent system is being abused.

    Your example isn’t relevant here because these companies both make use of their patent portfolios to make products and thus move the industry forward. (I.E. the use of a public system to advance public interests.)

    I also noted that when both companies have legitimate products there is less incentive to be a “troll”, since ones own products can be similarly targeted in a counter-suit.

    What I haven’t attempted to do is speak to the individual merits of the case - rather more broadly about the, perhaps unintended, consequences of not allowing recourse.

    If there is a company in name only, there is remarkably little recourse even if the patents are invalidated upon review. 


    Edit: Also just have a thought about what it would mean if every patent held should be levied against all possible infringers - despite no evidence of damages.
    edited February 2020 spock1234
  • Reply 18 of 44
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,591member
    gatorguy said:
    georgie01 said:

    Yes, owning and asserting patent rights IS a legitimate business. Patents are property. Why wouldn’t you assert your rights against an infringer? This hasn’t been a theoretical business advantage or potential liability in the entire history of the patent system. It’s real.
    I think EsquireCats was mainly referring to a company waiting to assert their patent. Anyone who thinks these things through can see that some companies look for technologies that might possibly infringe on a patent they have no intention of ever developing, and then bring a lawsuit against that similar technology hoping the courts will rule in their favour.

    That might be legal business but it’s not legitimate because it’s very far removed from the fundamental intention of patents.
    Even Apple patents "inventions" they have no intention of using themselves in a shipping product. They've also been known to sue companies over smartphone patents they themselves do not use on the iPhone IIRC from the Samsung trial. 

    Sometimes patents are roundly praised here on AI while other times they're ridiculed. Depends I suppose on who did the patenting?
    The point I make is as Georgie01 outlines, the intention of the patent system is being abused.

    Your example isn’t relevant here because these companies both make use of their patent portfolios to make products and thus move the industry forward. (I.E. the use of a public system to advance public interests.)

    I also noted that when both companies have legitimate products there is less incentive to be a “troll”, since ones own products can be similarly targeted in a counter-suit.

    What I haven’t attempted to do is speak to the individual merits of the case - rather more broadly about the, perhaps unintended, consequences of not allowing recourse.

    If there is a company in name only, there is remarkably little recourse even if the patents are invalidated upon review. 

    And I don't disagree with you. The concern is valid but there is no requirement in patent law that an invention have a working prototype or sample, nor that the company who is granted one ever use it for a product.

    Consider this too: a huge company like Apple or IBM or Google has almost unlimited resources to experiment and practice and play with ideas that end up behind patents and never used, which applies to most of 'em. Then along comes a small company or startup who actually plans to create a product using techniques that might be similar to the claims contained in an unused patent that Apple might own as an example. Is the intent of patents to be moving technology forward and useful to US industry and trade or to allow hoarding of worthy inventions and withhold them from any potential upstart or competitor and hinder technology?
    edited February 2020 beowulfschmidtronnrevenant
  • Reply 19 of 44
    VirnetX has expansive IP that Apple refused to license at a reasonable market established royalty of 80 cents per device for providing end to end VPN security and automatically encrypted Facetime (seems very reasonable). They are now paying an aggregate of $1.20- $1.40 per device and wasted another $100 million in legal fees over 10 years.

    Apple was shown not only to infringe but to be a willful infringer. They also purposely wasted the resources of the court and were sanctioned for it. In addition, it is also alleged (and there does seem to be evidence) of  Apple abusing the IPR system at the USPTO by creating partnership companies and making investments in Mangrove Partners and their Black Swamp Ventures Subsidiary with RPX so they could re-litigate against VirnetX after Apple lost their appeals. They also had an Apple engineer admit in a deposition that Apple knew about the VirnetX as SAIC IP and those patents before they tried to get their own patents through that were ultimately denied by the USPTO because of VirnetX prior Art. 

    This behavior went on for 10 years. VirnetX not only prevailed in Apple 1 (this SCOTUS case) but won awards in Apple 2, 3 and 4 (for about $1.1 Billion) that are going through appeals now but look likely to be ruled in VirnetX. Tim Cook and Apple tried to make a mockery of the justice system and in a large part did until SCOTUS today said enough.

    The argument over property rights in the united state is clear. Patents are property. Remember we have seen patent suits filed by Apple and Samsung over the thing as trivial as the shape of the iPhone!

    VirnetX has viable and legitimate technology that hundreds of people worked on from their SAIC days, and those property rights can't be ignored - they are owned by VirnetX. Apple was proved to be a willful infringer meaning they KNEW what they were doing WAS WORNG and they infringed anyway because. The truth is they intended to keep this in courts for decades (which they did) and bleed Virnetx financially (which they also did) but justice still prevailed. 

    Apple .. "pay him, pay that man his money".

    ADDED - From VirnetX CEO today...


    "We are extremely pleased with the Supreme Court's decision not to hear Apple's writ of certiorari," said Kendall Larsen , VirnetX CEO and President. "It has taken us 10 long years, 4 successful jury trials, 2 successful Appellate Court rulings and a favorable Supreme Court decision to get here. We believe in the fairness of the American justice system and have respectfully played by its rules no matter how arduous. We trust Apple will honor the decisions rendered by our courts and their esteemed judges and honor an agreement to abide by the court's decision."

    "We are a small company with valuable security technology. The inventors of that technology have senior level positions at VirnetX. It has always been our objective to create our own products with our proprietary technology. Unfortunately, when other companies are using your technology without permission, you must take action to protect that company asset," continued Kendall Larsen . "We have always believed that we were in the right with our court actions against Apple. Four juries and countless judges agree. We believe that our technology provides an important security feature in some Apple products especially the iPhone. The jury award we received and confirmed by Federal judges, is less than a quarter of one percent of the cost of an iPhone. We believe this amount is more than fair considering the importance of Internet security."

     
    edited February 2020 gatorguyronn
  • Reply 20 of 44
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    gatorguy said:
    The U.S. Supreme Court can no longer be trusted to handle much more than a traffic ticket.  Actually, they'd probably screw that up too.
    Oh geez.... Good thing you don't hate and/or distrust everything US. Just anything having to do with government. Or media.  Or anything counter to Chinese interests.  /s

    No, I just want a government that adheres to its own laws.   Doesn't sound like it should be too much to ask.

    Added:
    I do trust the media -- but the real media.   Not the propaganda outlets spewing right wing fear mongering and hatred.  Neither do I trust or respect the amoral, wanna be dictator squatting in our White House.

    And actually, I am not pro-China -- although I do respect their ability to make great products at low prices while raising the living standards of its people (much like the U.S. did 100 some years ago).  Rather, I simply object to the right wing disinformation campaign being conducted against it.  It's how Putin, Trump and the American right now operate:  attack the opponent (whoever it may be) with lies, distortions and fabrications meant to tear them down. 

    edited February 2020 macintownmuthuk_vanalingam
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