Where is Apple going next with Services?

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  • Reply 61 of 80
    larryjwlarryjw Posts: 1,040member
    danvm said:
    mcdave said:
    danvm said:
    Second, I have heard of MS stealing from Apple, and I suppose you refer specifically MacOS and Windows GUI elements in the early years.  But it's interesting how Xerox filed a lawsuit against Apple claiming Apple had infringed copyrights Xerox held on its GUI's.  Looks like at the time, Apple neither MS were the best companies to trust your secrets, don't you think?
    Oh yeah. That’s straight out of the MS Supreme Court defence against Apple vs MS. The problem is, when you use Windows1 vs Star 8010 vs Mac System 1 under emulation you realise how much Apple added to create the cohesive product Xerox never had & how much of that MS stole.
    So Apple created a cohesive product that copied from Xerox, while MS copied from Apple.  If you ask me, at the end both companies benefit from the Xerox innovation, and built their foundations from it.  Maybe Xerox was the one who deserve to be on the top, don't you think?
    Try Ralph Benjamin, 1946, who invented trackballs. 

    Douglas Engelbart, with Bill English and the 1968 Mother of All Demos given at the ACM/IEEE conference in San Francisco. That demo had everything we currently have except the Keyset shown there, and fonts (that was Apple/Jobs).  

    I had the extreme pleasure of having lunch with Doug Engelbart, with a few others, in 1984 at a Toronto conference. Some inside stories.
    edited March 2020
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  • Reply 62 of 80
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,506member
    larryjw said:
    danvm said:
    mcdave said:
    danvm said:
    Second, I have heard of MS stealing from Apple, and I suppose you refer specifically MacOS and Windows GUI elements in the early years.  But it's interesting how Xerox filed a lawsuit against Apple claiming Apple had infringed copyrights Xerox held on its GUI's.  Looks like at the time, Apple neither MS were the best companies to trust your secrets, don't you think?
    Oh yeah. That’s straight out of the MS Supreme Court defence against Apple vs MS. The problem is, when you use Windows1 vs Star 8010 vs Mac System 1 under emulation you realise how much Apple added to create the cohesive product Xerox never had & how much of that MS stole.
    So Apple created a cohesive product that copied from Xerox, while MS copied from Apple.  If you ask me, at the end both companies benefit from the Xerox innovation, and built their foundations from it.  Maybe Xerox was the one who deserve to be on the top, don't you think?
    Try Ralph Benjamin, 1946, who invented trackballs. 

    Douglas Engelbart, with Bill English and the 1968 Mother of All Demos given at the ACM/IEEE conference in San Francisco. That demo had everything we currently have except the Keyset shown there, and fonts (that was Apple/Jobs).  

    I had the extreme pleasure of having lunch with Doug Engelbart, with a few others, in 1984 at a Toronto conference. Some inside stories.
    I didn't knew about this.  It's crazy how many people with different ideas and concepts were involved in what we have today with modern UI's.  
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  • Reply 63 of 80
    YP101yp101 Posts: 183member
    All of Apple's services thus far are just meh. Music, TV, Arcade, News. Just meh. None of them are an awesome deal or must have content. They are just meh. Apple Pay would be OK but it only works a few places so it too is meh.
    Apple Pay only works in a few places? Laugh, good one. Dunno which part of the world you’re in but NFC tap payments are everywhere. Everywhere. 

    I read news from south Korea and in this country still does not lunched Apple pay due to Apple wants 1% transaction fee.
    Compare to other credit card POS transaction fee is highest is 0.8% Samsung pay is free. Apple's fee is not part of POS transaction fee. So store owner needs to pay more than any credit card process.

    So NFC enable POS means just it has capable to process. Not that mean POS owner enable every pay system.
    You must check sign to make sure it accept Apple pay and/or Google pay, etc..
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  • Reply 64 of 80
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    I thought the credit card company paid the fee, not the vendor?

    Or maybe it's different for the full Apple Pay that doesn't have the NFC payment limit?
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  • Reply 65 of 80
    StrangeDaysstrangedays Posts: 13,215member
    YP101 said:
    All of Apple's services thus far are just meh. Music, TV, Arcade, News. Just meh. None of them are an awesome deal or must have content. They are just meh. Apple Pay would be OK but it only works a few places so it too is meh.
    Apple Pay only works in a few places? Laugh, good one. Dunno which part of the world you’re in but NFC tap payments are everywhere. Everywhere. 

    I read news from south Korea and in this country still does not lunched Apple pay due to Apple wants 1% transaction fee.
    Compare to other credit card POS transaction fee is highest is 0.8% Samsung pay is free. Apple's fee is not part of POS transaction fee. So store owner needs to pay more than any credit card process.

    So NFC enable POS means just it has capable to process. Not that mean POS owner enable every pay system.
    You must check sign to make sure it accept Apple pay and/or Google pay, etc..
    You’re confusing local card-issuing banks with NFC tap to pay terminal access. I don’t need a local issuing bank in order to use NFC in a country.

    Store owners do not pay any additional fee to Apple for running an Apple Pay transaction thru their POS terminal. 

    You do not need to check if a NFC POS terminal accepts Apple Pay. Unless the merchant has specifically disabled AP, and the only one I knew of was CVS because they were building a competing service (CurrenC or whatever it was), if they do NFC payments AP will work. 
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  • Reply 66 of 80
    larryjwlarryjw Posts: 1,040member
    YP101 said:
    All of Apple's services thus far are just meh. Music, TV, Arcade, News. Just meh. None of them are an awesome deal or must have content. They are just meh. Apple Pay would be OK but it only works a few places so it too is meh.
    Apple Pay only works in a few places? Laugh, good one. Dunno which part of the world you’re in but NFC tap payments are everywhere. Everywhere. 

    I read news from south Korea and in this country still does not lunched Apple pay due to Apple wants 1% transaction fee.
    Compare to other credit card POS transaction fee is highest is 0.8% Samsung pay is free. Apple's fee is not part of POS transaction fee. So store owner needs to pay more than any credit card process.

    So NFC enable POS means just it has capable to process. Not that mean POS owner enable every pay system.
    You must check sign to make sure it accept Apple pay and/or Google pay, etc..
    You’re confusing local card-issuing banks with NFC tap to pay terminal access. I don’t need a local issuing bank in order to use NFC in a country.

    Store owners do not pay any additional fee to Apple for running an Apple Pay transaction thru their POS terminal. 

    You do not need to check if a NFC POS terminal accepts Apple Pay. Unless the merchant has specifically disabled AP, and the only one I knew of was CVS because they were building a competing service (CurrenC or whatever it was), if they do NFC payments AP will work. 
    Are you sure about your position? Elite cards, like American Express, do cost vendors money. Somebody pays for the "freebies" cards give back to users; often, mostly, it's the retailer/vendor. Typical is fixed fee of $0.30 plus 2.9% of amount. American Express might be more like 4.4%. 

    I asked one restaurant owner why he didn't take American Express. His answer is he wasn't about to pay for his customer's airline seats.  A bit hyperbole, but you get the drift. 

    All retailers use POS systems, and each of them take a cut of the transactions, regardless of the credit card used. 
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  • Reply 67 of 80
    dewmedewme Posts: 6,098member
    Japhey said:
    I think health and fitness are the obvious next stage service opportunities. There are hundreds of paid subscription apps for meditation, yoga, training, etc on the App Store. Apple could offer them all under one banner, leverage the popularity of the Apple Watch, and throw in the occasional celebrity guest leading a live class. Home workouts are one of the fastest growing trends in fitness right now, and Apple would have no problem cashing in on it. $4.99 or $9.99 a month? It wouldn’t matter. Such a service would surpass Apple News+ on day one. 
    Just my opinion. 
    I think there are almost limitless opportunities ahead for Apple in healthcare, ranging from monitoring, A.I.-assisted diagnosis and perhaps even physical therapy using devices or robotics. Robotics is another vast new evolving area for them to enter and dominate.
    I'm curious why you'd think that Apple would have a strategic advantage in robotics. Sure, Apple has a boatload of cash and some smart people but it's not like the robotics market is floundering with a bunch of losers who are struggling to find their way with little competition to worry about. The top players in the industrial robotics market have been building their market and deepening their domain expertise in robotics (and the underlying control problems) for over 50 years. I think it would be very naive to think that a company like Apple who isn't even heavily invested in building its own organic manufacturing capability would prance into the fray against the likes of ABB, Yaskawa, KUKA, FANUC, Comau, Omron, etc., and boldly proclaim "Apple is now here, so please step aside and prepare to be dominated!" It just doesn't work like that when you don't have the domain expertise to back up your claims, regardless of the thickness of your wallet.

    Is there disruption opportunity in robotics where a small upstart can sneak in from the bottom? Sure, and it's already in-place as smaller robotics ventures with domain expertise and low overhead try to crack into the market in areas like smaller packaging machines that have integrated robotic elements in addition to discrete and motion control. Heck, there's even a healthy open-source robotics community that mirrors what we've seen with open-source software. The robotics industry is constantly evolving, but it is also quite mature with several well established and dominant makers already in place. Even companies that are heavily invested in adjacent technologies like factory automation, system integration, and the suppliers of components that are essential for robot implementations, e.g.. motion control, servo drives, multi-axis positioning, are finding it difficult to break into turnkey robotic solutions without acquiring a company that's already deeply engaged in the robotics domain.

    Sure, Apple could decide to jump into robotics and take on the likes of ABB, KUKA, and FANUC just as easily as it could jump into medical systems and go up against GE, Siemens, and Philips but the multi-billion dollar question would be - why? Apple has already carved out a sweet spot in several key markets where it thoroughly understands its customers, almost at a molecular level, so why change course and climb on a learning curve with so little understanding of what's on the other side of the mountain that it would have to climb? You'd think that they'd be looking at adjacent markets that serve the same customers they already know and love. If we were talking Tesla and robotics it would be a different story because there are obvious adjacencies and Tesla is already directly invested in robotics. 

       
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  • Reply 68 of 80
    StrangeDaysstrangedays Posts: 13,215member
    larryjw said:
    YP101 said:
    All of Apple's services thus far are just meh. Music, TV, Arcade, News. Just meh. None of them are an awesome deal or must have content. They are just meh. Apple Pay would be OK but it only works a few places so it too is meh.
    Apple Pay only works in a few places? Laugh, good one. Dunno which part of the world you’re in but NFC tap payments are everywhere. Everywhere. 

    I read news from south Korea and in this country still does not lunched Apple pay due to Apple wants 1% transaction fee.
    Compare to other credit card POS transaction fee is highest is 0.8% Samsung pay is free. Apple's fee is not part of POS transaction fee. So store owner needs to pay more than any credit card process.

    So NFC enable POS means just it has capable to process. Not that mean POS owner enable every pay system.
    You must check sign to make sure it accept Apple pay and/or Google pay, etc..
    You’re confusing local card-issuing banks with NFC tap to pay terminal access. I don’t need a local issuing bank in order to use NFC in a country.

    Store owners do not pay any additional fee to Apple for running an Apple Pay transaction thru their POS terminal. 

    You do not need to check if a NFC POS terminal accepts Apple Pay. Unless the merchant has specifically disabled AP, and the only one I knew of was CVS because they were building a competing service (CurrenC or whatever it was), if they do NFC payments AP will work. 
    Are you sure about your position? Elite cards, like American Express, do cost vendors money. Somebody pays for the "freebies" cards give back to users; often, mostly, it's the retailer/vendor. Typical is fixed fee of $0.30 plus 2.9% of amount. American Express might be more like 4.4%. 

    I asked one restaurant owner why he didn't take American Express. His answer is he wasn't about to pay for his customer's airline seats.  A bit hyperbole, but you get the drift. 

    All retailers use POS systems, and each of them take a cut of the transactions, regardless of the credit card used. 
    Apple Pay does not cost merchants added fees to run. It’s a tokenized credit card number. It is not American Express. Apple makes its money from it from the card-issuing banks, who pay them in exchange for the reduction of fraud loss. 

    I’m certain. 
    edited March 2020
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  • Reply 69 of 80
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,769member

    - Card
    - TV+
    - News+
    - Arcade
    - Music
    I'll pass on all of the above.
    In fact I pass on pretty well all things that require subscriptions (from apple or not). I know that I'm not alone there.
    When you retire, you are on a much reduced income. This madcap drive to make everything subscription is indeed targetted at Millenials/Gen ?? who bitch a lot about not being able to save any money. Coincidence?
    Those of us who are retired are generally asset rich, cash poor, have great credit histories but are generally ignored by marketeers unless it is to sell us funeral plans.

    Apple has a lot (As in huge) number of people who have been customers for years even decades but most of what they are doing is targetting the under 30's who are both asset and cash poor (or so we are led to belived). Strange that.
    But I'm not sure what would interest us in the way of services. But I do know that I'll carry on not buying 'stuff' that I can't afford from my cash in hand.
    Just my useless $0.02 worth. YMMV.
    FWIW my attitude is if I can pass on with $100 left in the bank and zero debt I did very well. I don't owe my children an easy life, in fact I think I'd be doing them a disservice leaving them a significant inheritance. \

    I doubt I'd have had the fulfilling life i have filled with a sense of accomplishment and pride in what I done if it was largely due to money my parents left me. I made my own money, made possible by hard work and fortuitous luck. In more than a few instances I was in the right place at the right time, and had the intelligence coupled with an accumen for business taught by my parents to recognize what the moment offered and seize it. Sometimes I lost but more often I've won, and my mother and fathers parenting have much to do with it

    I see so many kids with parents money falling into a lazy routine and some worse than that. Drug addiction and alcohol abuse seem way too common when you are given large sums of money and not earned it. If you have no compelling reason to search out your own path you are far less likely to do so IMO. Boredom sets in. Parents who think that they shouldn't be reaping the fruits of their hard work in retirement and instead planning for how they'll leave it to their kids are not doing them any favors. 

    My parents owned me nothing other than the best parenting they were capable of and I owe my children the same, nothing more. Someday they'll thank me just as I've thanked my long-dead parents so many times for making me learn how to live my own life. 

    My advice: Don't hoard what you have. Enjoy it, do all those things you always wanted. Travel. Experience. And when you've done all you want in life take what's left and donate to a school, help fund a medical program that might save thousands, find that charity that really does make a difference. Have faith that you've been all the parent you could and that you children will find their own successes because that's the way you taught them and not because you gave them things that they never had to work for. 
    FileMakerFellermuthuk_vanalingam
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  • Reply 70 of 80
    dewmedewme Posts: 6,098member
    gatorguy said:

    - Card
    - TV+
    - News+
    - Arcade
    - Music
    I'll pass on all of the above.
    In fact I pass on pretty well all things that require subscriptions (from apple or not). I know that I'm not alone there.
    When you retire, you are on a much reduced income. This madcap drive to make everything subscription is indeed targetted at Millenials/Gen ?? who bitch a lot about not being able to save any money. Coincidence?
    Those of us who are retired are generally asset rich, cash poor, have great credit histories but are generally ignored by marketeers unless it is to sell us funeral plans.

    Apple has a lot (As in huge) number of people who have been customers for years even decades but most of what they are doing is targetting the under 30's who are both asset and cash poor (or so we are led to belived). Strange that.
    But I'm not sure what would interest us in the way of services. But I do know that I'll carry on not buying 'stuff' that I can't afford from my cash in hand.
    Just my useless $0.02 worth. YMMV.
    FWIW my attitude is if I can pass on with $100 left in the bank and zero debt I did very well. I don't owe my children an easy life, in fact I think I'd be doing them a disservice leaving them a significant inheritance. \

    I doubt I'd have had the fulfilling life i have filled with a sense of accomplishment and pride in what I done if it was largely due to money my parents left me. I made my own money, made possible by hard work and fortuitous luck. In more than a few instances I was in the right place at the right time, and had the intelligence coupled with an accumen for business taught by my parents to recognize what the moment offered and seize it. Sometimes I lost but more often I've won, and my mother and fathers parenting have much to do with it

    I see so many kids with parents money falling into a lazy routine and some worse than that. Drug addiction and alcohol abuse seem way too common when you are given large sums of money and not earned it. If you have no compelling reason to search out your own path you are far less likely to do so IMO. Boredom sets in. Parents who think that they shouldn't be reaping the fruits of their hard work in retirement and instead planning for how they'll leave it to their kids are not doing them any favors. 

    My parents owned me nothing other than the best parenting they were capable of and I owe my children the same, nothing more. Someday they'll thank me just as I've thanked my long-dead parents so many times for making me learn how to live my own life. 

    My advice: Don't hoard what you have. Enjoy it, do all those things you always wanted. Travel. Experience. And when you've done all you want in life take what's left and donate to a school, help fund a medical program that might save thousands, find that charity that really does make a difference. Have faith that you've been all the parent you could and that you children will find their own successes because that's the way you taught them and not because you gave them things that they never had to work for. 
    Awesome post.
    muthuk_vanalingam
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  • Reply 71 of 80
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,927member
    danvm said:
    mcdave said:
    danvm said:
    Second, I have heard of MS stealing from Apple, and I suppose you refer specifically MacOS and Windows GUI elements in the early years.  But it's interesting how Xerox filed a lawsuit against Apple claiming Apple had infringed copyrights Xerox held on its GUI's.  Looks like at the time, Apple neither MS were the best companies to trust your secrets, don't you think?
    Oh yeah. That’s straight out of the MS Supreme Court defence against Apple vs MS. The problem is, when you use Windows1 vs Star 8010 vs Mac System 1 under emulation you realise how much Apple added to create the cohesive product Xerox never had & how much of that MS stole.
    So Apple created a cohesive product that copied from Xerox, while MS copied from Apple.  If you ask me, at the end both companies benefit from the Xerox innovation, and built their foundations from it.  Maybe Xerox was the one who deserve to be on the top, don't you think?
    Why? Building components isn’t the same as building a product.
    I’m pretty sure Apple & Xerox settled their differences with stock & legitimate IP transfer.
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  • Reply 72 of 80
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,927member
    danvm said:
    mcdave said:
    I’d like to see Apple release iCloud Pro. Let’s face it Google & MS business ‘productivity’ offerings are crap with MS requiring significant vendor or in-house support & Google just being web apps.  A huge gap for a self-managed, native-first player.
    Do you really think Apple could do better than Google and MS cloud services for business when I can't even do something as simple as share a folder in iCloud?.  And MS Office is miles ahead of the iWorks apps.  Apple has to do a lot of work if they want to compete with Google and MS in the business cloud / productivity market.  
    Google Docs demonstrates you don’t need over-featured products like MS-Office. Pages, Numbers & Keynote (they stopped being iWork ages ago) are fine as they are.
    Perhaps shared folders are too backward-thinking. Look at how shared MS-Office templates are kludged by its inability to reconcile OneDrive & SharePoint locations. There’s more to the future of information collaboration than Novell Netware 2020.
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  • Reply 73 of 80
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,927member
    larryjw said:

    sirozha said:
    With all due respect, iCloud is nothing like Azure or AWS. 

    Azure and AWS are not only storage services but mostly cloud compute services. You can run your entire data center in AWS or Azure. Can you run anything in iCloud? 

    For crying out loud, iCloud can't even implement folder sharing among family members. That's just embarrassing, provided that Dropbox was able to do this 10 years ago. 


    Apple had MobileMe with cloud storage before Dropbox was founded, and now, over 15 years later, we still can't share folders! I upgraded all my Macs from Mojave to Catalina a couple weeks ago in order to be able to share folders among family members. Guess what I found out? This feature, which was promised during WWDC 2019, was not implemented in Catalina and was delayed until "Spring 2020". Seriously, Apple? Another disaster project from hell, just like Car Play, Apple Maps, and Siri. 

    iCloud does very very little compared to even Dropbox. Don't brig up Azure or AWS in the same article with iCloud because those services are lightyears ahead of iCloud. 

    When one speaks of Apples services, iCloud should be used as an example of how NOT to do services. Apple did well with Apple Pay and perhaps Apple Card (I wouldn't know anything about Apple Card, as I am not planning to have it). Apple TV+, Apple Maps, CarPlay, Siri, and iCloud, are serious flops on Apple's part. Yes, Apple Maps is still a disaster just like it was in 2012. CarPlay is so inferior to Android Auto that it's not even close. Even when running Google Maps on CarPlay, you can't get anywhere near in functionality of what Android Auto can do, and that's mostly because of how inferior Siri is to Google Assistant. Apple Maps is so bad that you can't use it to navigate to any POI reliably. It simply lacks the intelligence of Google Assistant + Google Search + Google Maps running in Android Auto. For that reason, I keep a cheap Android phone permanently connected to my car's head unit in order to use Android Auto. All my other phones are iPhones. 
    Nothing like Azure and AWS? Icloud has to be something like Azure because it’s built on top of Azure, at least. Not aware if Apple uses AWS. They are unlikely to be using Oracle’s or IBM’s cloud service. 
    Someone can’t distinguish between a product and the underlying technology. A brick isn’t a house, a wheel isn’t a car.
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  • Reply 74 of 80
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,506member
    mcdave said:
    danvm said:
    mcdave said:
    danvm said:
    Second, I have heard of MS stealing from Apple, and I suppose you refer specifically MacOS and Windows GUI elements in the early years.  But it's interesting how Xerox filed a lawsuit against Apple claiming Apple had infringed copyrights Xerox held on its GUI's.  Looks like at the time, Apple neither MS were the best companies to trust your secrets, don't you think?
    Oh yeah. That’s straight out of the MS Supreme Court defence against Apple vs MS. The problem is, when you use Windows1 vs Star 8010 vs Mac System 1 under emulation you realise how much Apple added to create the cohesive product Xerox never had & how much of that MS stole.
    So Apple created a cohesive product that copied from Xerox, while MS copied from Apple.  If you ask me, at the end both companies benefit from the Xerox innovation, and built their foundations from it.  Maybe Xerox was the one who deserve to be on the top, don't you think?
    Why? Building components isn’t the same as building a product.
    I’m pretty sure Apple & Xerox settled their differences with stock & legitimate IP transfer.
    The Apple v Xerox was dismissed, not settled as you said.  Again, both MS and Apple took advantage of what other company built to create the foundation of their business.  
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  • Reply 75 of 80
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,506member
    mcdave said:
    danvm said:
    mcdave said:
    I’d like to see Apple release iCloud Pro. Let’s face it Google & MS business ‘productivity’ offerings are crap with MS requiring significant vendor or in-house support & Google just being web apps.  A huge gap for a self-managed, native-first player.
    Do you really think Apple could do better than Google and MS cloud services for business when I can't even do something as simple as share a folder in iCloud?.  And MS Office is miles ahead of the iWorks apps.  Apple has to do a lot of work if they want to compete with Google and MS in the business cloud / productivity market.  
    Google Docs demonstrates you don’t need over-featured products like MS-Office. Pages, Numbers & Keynote (they stopped being iWork ages ago) are fine as they are.
    Perhaps shared folders are too backward-thinking. Look at how shared MS-Office templates are kludged by its inability to reconcile OneDrive & SharePoint locations. There’s more to the future of information collaboration than Novell Netware 2020.
    G Suite showed that there is market for productivity web apps.  Still, there is a huge market for full-feature applications like MS Office, considering the growth of Office 365 customers per quarter, for both, personal and business use.  iWorks (yes, I know the name doesn't exist anymore, but it's far quicker than typing the name of each app, as you did ;) )  apps aren't fine as you said, considering we are talking about business.  They lack a lot of features business needs and don't offer any kind of integration with other business applications.  IMO, G Suite and Office 365 are the best options we have in the market, but neither is perfect.  I can find a long list of issues related with Office 365, as the one you mentioned.  But the same can be said of G Suite.  Instead of talking about how you would like to see Apple releasing an iCloud Pro to compete with MS O365 and G Suite, don't you think it would be better if they fix something as simple as a shared folder in iCloud?
    edited March 2020
    muthuk_vanalingam
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  • Reply 76 of 80
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,927member
    danvm said:
    mcdave said:
    danvm said:
    mcdave said:
    danvm said:
    Second, I have heard of MS stealing from Apple, and I suppose you refer specifically MacOS and Windows GUI elements in the early years.  But it's interesting how Xerox filed a lawsuit against Apple claiming Apple had infringed copyrights Xerox held on its GUI's.  Looks like at the time, Apple neither MS were the best companies to trust your secrets, don't you think?
    Oh yeah. That’s straight out of the MS Supreme Court defence against Apple vs MS. The problem is, when you use Windows1 vs Star 8010 vs Mac System 1 under emulation you realise how much Apple added to create the cohesive product Xerox never had & how much of that MS stole.
    So Apple created a cohesive product that copied from Xerox, while MS copied from Apple.  If you ask me, at the end both companies benefit from the Xerox innovation, and built their foundations from it.  Maybe Xerox was the one who deserve to be on the top, don't you think?
    Why? Building components isn’t the same as building a product.
    I’m pretty sure Apple & Xerox settled their differences with stock & legitimate IP transfer.
    The Apple v Xerox was dismissed, not settled as you said.  Again, both MS and Apple took advantage of what other company built to create the foundation of their business.  
    Not true; Apple took advantage of Xerox’s components & succeeded. Microsoft took advantage of Xerox’s components and failed (like Xerox), so they took advantage of Apple’s additional components and overall design (which is where Xerox & MS failed).
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  • Reply 77 of 80
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,927member
    danvm said:
    mcdave said:
    danvm said:
    mcdave said:
    I’d like to see Apple release iCloud Pro. Let’s face it Google & MS business ‘productivity’ offerings are crap with MS requiring significant vendor or in-house support & Google just being web apps.  A huge gap for a self-managed, native-first player.
    Do you really think Apple could do better than Google and MS cloud services for business when I can't even do something as simple as share a folder in iCloud?.  And MS Office is miles ahead of the iWorks apps.  Apple has to do a lot of work if they want to compete with Google and MS in the business cloud / productivity market.  
    Google Docs demonstrates you don’t need over-featured products like MS-Office. Pages, Numbers & Keynote (they stopped being iWork ages ago) are fine as they are.
    Perhaps shared folders are too backward-thinking. Look at how shared MS-Office templates are kludged by its inability to reconcile OneDrive & SharePoint locations. There’s more to the future of information collaboration than Novell Netware 2020.
    G Suite showed that there is market for productivity web apps.  Still, there is a huge market for full-feature applications like MS Office, considering the growth of Office 365 customers per quarter, for both, personal and business use.  iWorks (yes, I know the name doesn't exist anymore, but it's far quicker than typing the name of each app, as you did ;) )  apps aren't fine as you said, considering we are talking about business.  They lack a lot of features business needs and don't offer any kind of integration with other business applications.  IMO, G Suite and Office 365 are the best options we have in the market, but neither is perfect.  I can find a long list of issues related with Office 365, as the one you mentioned.  But the same can be said of G Suite.  Instead of talking about how you would like to see Apple releasing an iCloud Pro to compete with MS O365 and G Suite, don't you think it would be better if they fix something as simple as a shared folder in iCloud?
    iWorks never existed, iWork is the product you’re referring to.
    Copying the failures of MS & Google wouldn’t be my strategy. Producing better in-App collaboration (cross-tagging users & docs) and circumventing those issues would be my play.
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  • Reply 78 of 80
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,506member
    mcdave said:
    danvm said:
    mcdave said:
    danvm said:
    mcdave said:
    danvm said:
    Second, I have heard of MS stealing from Apple, and I suppose you refer specifically MacOS and Windows GUI elements in the early years.  But it's interesting how Xerox filed a lawsuit against Apple claiming Apple had infringed copyrights Xerox held on its GUI's.  Looks like at the time, Apple neither MS were the best companies to trust your secrets, don't you think?
    Oh yeah. That’s straight out of the MS Supreme Court defence against Apple vs MS. The problem is, when you use Windows1 vs Star 8010 vs Mac System 1 under emulation you realise how much Apple added to create the cohesive product Xerox never had & how much of that MS stole.
    So Apple created a cohesive product that copied from Xerox, while MS copied from Apple.  If you ask me, at the end both companies benefit from the Xerox innovation, and built their foundations from it.  Maybe Xerox was the one who deserve to be on the top, don't you think?
    Why? Building components isn’t the same as building a product.
    I’m pretty sure Apple & Xerox settled their differences with stock & legitimate IP transfer.
    The Apple v Xerox was dismissed, not settled as you said.  Again, both MS and Apple took advantage of what other company built to create the foundation of their business.  
    Not true; Apple took advantage of Xerox’s components & succeeded. Microsoft took advantage of Xerox’s components and failed (like Xerox), so they took advantage of Apple’s additional components and overall design (which is where Xerox & MS failed).
    Sorry, but it's true.  Both companies took advantage of Xerox, and both succeeded.  Too bad, isn't?
    edited March 2020
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  • Reply 79 of 80
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,506member
    mcdave said:
    danvm said:
    mcdave said:
    danvm said:
    mcdave said:
    I’d like to see Apple release iCloud Pro. Let’s face it Google & MS business ‘productivity’ offerings are crap with MS requiring significant vendor or in-house support & Google just being web apps.  A huge gap for a self-managed, native-first player.
    Do you really think Apple could do better than Google and MS cloud services for business when I can't even do something as simple as share a folder in iCloud?.  And MS Office is miles ahead of the iWorks apps.  Apple has to do a lot of work if they want to compete with Google and MS in the business cloud / productivity market.  
    Google Docs demonstrates you don’t need over-featured products like MS-Office. Pages, Numbers & Keynote (they stopped being iWork ages ago) are fine as they are.
    Perhaps shared folders are too backward-thinking. Look at how shared MS-Office templates are kludged by its inability to reconcile OneDrive & SharePoint locations. There’s more to the future of information collaboration than Novell Netware 2020.
    G Suite showed that there is market for productivity web apps.  Still, there is a huge market for full-feature applications like MS Office, considering the growth of Office 365 customers per quarter, for both, personal and business use.  iWorks (yes, I know the name doesn't exist anymore, but it's far quicker than typing the name of each app, as you did ;) )  apps aren't fine as you said, considering we are talking about business.  They lack a lot of features business needs and don't offer any kind of integration with other business applications.  IMO, G Suite and Office 365 are the best options we have in the market, but neither is perfect.  I can find a long list of issues related with Office 365, as the one you mentioned.  But the same can be said of G Suite.  Instead of talking about how you would like to see Apple releasing an iCloud Pro to compete with MS O365 and G Suite, don't you think it would be better if they fix something as simple as a shared folder in iCloud?
    iWorks never existed, iWork is the product you’re referring to.
    Copying the failures of MS & Google wouldn’t be my strategy. Producing better in-App collaboration (cross-tagging users & docs) and circumventing those issues would be my play.
    Yes, I miss by an "S".  Still, looks like you understood what I was talking about without typing the list of apps.  

    And I agree, I wouldn't copy MS of Google failures, but definitely will copy something as simple as sharing a folder , don't you think?  Until then, MS and Google still the best in the market by miles, specially for business, be on the desktop or the web.  
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