Good news! Soon we can stop the insanity of going to a gas station once or twice a week!
If you're going to the gas station 2x a week then you need a different vehicle or something. If it's because a long commute it will be no different with an electric vehicle. You'll just be paying to charge your vehicle instead of paying for gas. Either way, you're paying.
Nearly all aspects of modern living require the exchange of currency for resources. I don’t personally see “free” as being the appeal of EVs.
Never said it would be free (because its not). I was just making the point that they may not really be saving much in the end versus a vehicle that gets better gas milage. And if you have to recharge every 150 or so miles how is that any better than going the gas station 2x a week?
If you need a vehicle for long range commutes why the fuck would you even consider one with a 150 mile range, or even one at all? You wouldn't, but you pegged your argument on this because you have no solid case for pooh-poohing EVs. It would be like arrguing that you need to run a specific, decade-old 32-bit app that the company you worked for designed for Windows in the Enterprise and then claiming how much Apple, macOS, 64-bit processors, and the MacBook Air suck because it won't serve that specific need. Get the fucking machine that suits your fucking need. If it doesn't, then move the fuck on. It's not that fucking hard.
Good news! Soon we can stop the insanity of going to a gas station once or twice a week!
Hope not. Not looking forward to having to spend 20-30 minutes at a minimum every 150 miles on some of my drives. Would rather spend the 5 minutes every 400 miles to so, gas up and get back on the road.
I have a 130 mile (RT) commute. I drive a Chevy Bolt EV. I charge when I get home at night, and wake to a fully charged car, ready to go again. It takes all of about 5 seconds to plug or unplug. I never have to stop for a charge along the route, even on the coldest winter days. I see this as a clear advantage for driving Electric, have not been to a gas station in years unless driving the wife's car.
Now, for trips, you are correct, it will take a bit longer. But a 30-45 minute charge stop makes for a relaxing meal break. Given 95% or more of my driving is commuting or short errands, I tend to hit public chargers only a handful of times per year, so a little more time is not a critical factor to me. Trips are definitely more of a smell the roses kind of proposition in EVs.
As for cost, my electricity to operate the EV costs about 1/3 of what I paid for gas in a 43 MPG Hybrid. EPA ratings for EVs assumes 1 gallons of gas = 33.7 kWh or electricity. Based on this, my commute averages about 150-170MPGe.
The ride is quiet, the acceleration is instant and surprising, and I rarely have to use the brake pedal, even in stop and go traffic. Driving is actually fun again.
Don't be so quick to resist EVs. They are actually a good fit for more of us than you would think.
Apple sure is taking their time with this. It seems they aren't going to ship unless they have class leading automated driving software done first, and maybe class leading battery management software. In the meanwhile it seems like they are putting $250m to $500m per year on this and all they have to show for it are patent applications. It's kind of the same with the AR glasses, which is also likely $250m to $500m run rate.
And if and when they announce a vehicle, it would be another 2 years before it ships! This assumes they break ground on an assembly plant at the same time.
Apple sure is taking their time with this. It seems they aren't going to ship unless they have class leading automated driving software done first, and maybe class leading battery management software. In the meanwhile it seems like they are putting $250m to $500m per year on this and all they have to show for it are patent applications. It's kind of the same with the AR glasses, which is also likely $250m to $500m run rate.
And if and when they announce a vehicle, it would be another 2 years before it ships! This assumes they break ground on an assembly plant at the same time.
Good news! Soon we can stop the insanity of going to a gas station once or twice a week!
Hope not. Not looking forward to having to spend 20-30 minutes at a minimum every 150 miles on some of my drives. Would rather spend the 5 minutes every 400 miles to so, gas up and get back on the road.
Exactly! I just don't see the appeal of an EV just yet other than just trying to be cool.
My brother-law just bought a Tesla. I have to be honest it is a really neat toy. But at the end of the day it's just that, a toy. He keeps telling me that I need to get one. And while I enjoyed the drive around the block, there is no way our family could replace our vehicles.
Just about every weekend from August through March I'm on the road, traveling to just about every ice rink in the tri-state area. That means every weekend I would either be; A.) Dead on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck. B.) Sweating bullets I make it to the next charging station, while freezing my rear off because the heater is turned off. C.) Sitting at a charging station with the family in freezing weather waiting to get enough juice to get us home.
These are nothing but expensive toys for now, and will be for at least the next decade if not two. And this is coming from someone who owns a Hybrid. I want these to be a thing but they just aren't.
This is all fine and dandy, but who do you suppose will be buying electric cars when gas is $1 per gallon? It is headed that way, and it may be years before gas goes back up over $4 where it begins to make economic sense to drive an electric car. I am not referring to whether it is cool or fun to drive electric, It is, but it is a financial loser below $4 per gallon.
Hopefully, I’m driving my last care with an internal combustion engine!
Me, too. I preordered a Tesla CyberTruck. I really like the look of the Rivian and some of the features, like Tank Turn, but they're an unproven company and their starting cost and cost for a giving distance isn't as good.
Good news! Soon we can stop the insanity of going to a gas station once or twice a week!
How often will we have to pay to charge at charging stations, rather than just charging after use at home?
That depends on one's specific driving needs, but for the majority of drivers they simply aren't needed, and for those that do need them, it's only occasionally. If the range of a modem EV doesn't suit one's needs then one should consider ICE for the foreseeable future.
Electrics aren’t practical for apartment dwellers, which is a large part of the population.
Hopefully, I’m driving my last care with an internal combustion engine!
Me, too. I preordered a Tesla CyberTruck. I really like the look of the Rivian and some of the features, like Tank Turn, but they're an unproven company and their starting cost and cost for a giving distance isn't as good.
You do know that Ford is backing Rivian, right?
So is Amazon. What's your point? Now that Ford is backing Rivian Tesla is going fold just like how MS backing Creative meant the iPod was going to fold? If Ford is so successful with EVs why the hell aren't they dominating the market?
Good news! Soon we can stop the insanity of going to a gas station once or twice a week!
How often will we have to pay to charge at charging stations, rather than just charging after use at home?
That depends on one's specific driving needs, but for the majority of drivers they simply aren't needed, and for those that do need them, it's only occasionally. If the range of a modem EV doesn't suit one's needs then one should consider ICE for the foreseeable future.
Electrics aren’t practical for apartment dwellers, which is a large part of the population.
And? If an object isn't practical for a certain buyers they usually don't buy them, but this is a growing segment (which you oddly acknowledge when it's about Tesla's competitors) and there are solutions in place.
Good news! Soon we can stop the insanity of going to a gas station once or twice a week!
Hope not. Not looking forward to having to spend 20-30 minutes at a minimum every 150 miles on some of my drives. Would rather spend the 5 minutes every 400 miles to so, gas up and get back on the road.
I have a 130 mile (RT) commute. I drive a Chevy Bolt EV. I charge when I get home at night, and wake to a fully charged car, ready to go again. It takes all of about 5 seconds to plug or unplug. I never have to stop for a charge along the route, even on the coldest winter days. I see this as a clear advantage for driving Electric, have not been to a gas station in years unless driving the wife's car.
Now, for trips, you are correct, it will take a bit longer. But a 30-45 minute charge stop makes for a relaxing meal break. Given 95% or more of my driving is commuting or short errands, I tend to hit public chargers only a handful of times per year, so a little more time is not a critical factor to me. Trips are definitely more of a smell the roses kind of proposition in EVs.
As for cost, my electricity to operate the EV costs about 1/3 of what I paid for gas in a 43 MPG Hybrid. EPA ratings for EVs assumes 1 gallons of gas = 33.7 kWh or electricity. Based on this, my commute averages about 150-170MPGe.
The ride is quiet, the acceleration is instant and surprising, and I rarely have to use the brake pedal, even in stop and go traffic. Driving is actually fun again.
Don't be so quick to resist EVs. They are actually a good fit for more of us than you would think.
Yes. I would add to my earlier post that my sister-in-law doesn't need to charge en route. She could easily do the 120km round trip and plug in when she gets home.
The reason she does do it is simply because it's on the route home, free and she can pick up stuff from a shopping centre that is right next to the charging station.
One of they key benefits for her is her monthly outlay is far more stable than with having to deal with unpredictable petrol prices. She can literally travel for free through tunnels that run through the mountain (normally the toll fee is high but EVs are not charged) cutting journey time in half and avoiding the 'free' road which is a winding mountain coastal road. Also, access to Barcelona is dynamically speed controlled depending on pollution levels and is becoming evermore restrictive to vehicles that put particles into the air.
Barcelona is also a very noisy city and EVs (once in wider use) will dramatically reduce noise pollution.
I use three phase induction motors in some of my equipment. To control them, because they work either over single phase 120, or single phase 240, depending on the motor, I use what are called VFDs. These convert either single phase 120 or 240 to three phase 240 (at the outlet in most places we see 220 measured). VFD stands for variable frequency drive. By varying the frequency the speed of the motor can be varied by a wide range, often from zero to possibly 3600, as with my motors. These are complex devices. They have control over every parameter of the motor, and monitor motor characteristics and health. They have reverse, jog, degree of turn, and most importantly, constant torque.
there are special “inverter duty” motors for this purpose, because motors don’t like to run off their designed frequency of either 50 or 60 Hz. If they do, they get too hot. The VFD will then shut them down. So while a drill press can use a regular (cheaper) 3 phase motor with this, its very disconcerting to have the mill or lathe shut off in the middle of a long cut.
this technology the article is taking about is almost the exact same technology we use. But our equipment isn’t meant to be bumping along the road while in use.
We h ave tons of motors where I work and a number of VFD's. Most of ours are 480V 3 phase. VFD's do come in handy.
Yeah, 360, 480 and 525 are heavy industrial voltages so wires can be thinner, for one reason. I can’t really get that at home, for my shops.
This is all fine and dandy, but who do you suppose will be buying electric cars when gas is $1 per gallon? It is headed that way, and it may be years before gas goes back up over $4 where it begins to make economic sense to drive an electric car. I am not referring to whether it is cool or fun to drive electric, It is, but it is a financial loser below $4 per gallon.
Let's say a gasoline car gets 30 MPG. A typical electric gets 3.5 mi/kWh. So to drive the same 30 mi, the EV uses 8.6 kWh. >95% of charging is done at home. US residential retail electric costs 12.8¢/kWh. So 30 miles of electric driving is 8.6 *.128 = $1.10 on electric versus the current cost of gasoline in $/gallon.
Of course a more complete economic and value analysis needs to include higher first cost, much lower maintenance cost, and longer life of EVs, the superior driving experience, and the convenience of not having to drive somewhere and babysit filling versus “tank is full every morning”, etc. But the idea that EVs are a “financial loser below $4/gal” is just made up. Break even is $1.10/gallon. As a now-experienced EV driver, rest assured that gasoline can stay below $1/gal as long as you want, I’ll never buy another gas burner again.
This is all fine and dandy, but who do you suppose will be buying electric cars when gas is $1 per gallon? It is headed that way, and it may be years before gas goes back up over $4 where it begins to make economic sense to drive an electric car. I am not referring to whether it is cool or fun to drive electric, It is, but it is a financial loser below $4 per gallon.
Let's say a gasoline car gets 30 MPG. A typical electric gets 3.5 mi/kWh. So to drive the same 30 mi, the EV uses 8.6 kWh. >95% of charging is done at home. US residential retail electric costs 12.8¢/kWh. So 30 miles of electric driving is 8.6 *.128 = $1.10 on electric versus the current cost of gasoline in $/gallon.
Of course a more complete economic and value analysis needs to include higher first cost, much lower maintenance cost, and longer life of EVs, the superior driving experience, and the convenience of not having to drive somewhere and babysit filling versus “tank is full every morning”, etc. But the idea that EVs are a “financial loser below $4/gal” is just made up. Break even is $1.10/gallon. As a now-experienced EV driver, rest assured that gasoline can stay below $1/gal as long as you want, I’ll never buy another gas burner again.
Gas may be cheap now, but its only intended to drive a lot of Fracking companies out of Business. Trump thought MBS was his friend but now he's getting screwed by him.
This is all fine and dandy, but who do you suppose will be buying electric cars when gas is $1 per gallon? It is headed that way, and it may be years before gas goes back up over $4 where it begins to make economic sense to drive an electric car. I am not referring to whether it is cool or fun to drive electric, It is, but it is a financial loser below $4 per gallon.
When I have enough saved to buy a model Y I'll buy a model why no matter what the cost of gas. Hope all gas companies foreign and domestic go out of business.
This is all fine and dandy, but who do you suppose will be buying electric cars when gas is $1 per gallon? It is headed that way, and it may be years before gas goes back up over $4 where it begins to make economic sense to drive an electric car. I am not referring to whether it is cool or fun to drive electric, It is, but it is a financial loser below $4 per gallon.
If gas is $1 per gallon in a sustained manner, it means everyone is buying electric cars, found a different means of transportation, or there is a cultural shift of people just not traveling.
$1 per gallon gas isn't tenable for the current oil economy. Today's cheap gas prices are a consequence of oversupply coupled with very low demand. It may be that demand will pick up again in a few weeks, but that'll mean gas prices will go up again. Enjoy it while you can. The supply-demand balance has to get to about $2 per gallon or higher in the USA for oil companies to actually stay in business. If demand doesn't pick up quickly enough, oil and gas companies will have reduce supply, go out of business, restructure to be able to profitably operate in a cheaper oil market.
As for people who would buy an EV with $1/gallon gas prices? Me! I would. I don't pay anything for the energy to drive my EV, we plan on getting a second, and eventually a minivan EV. I definitely perked up when I heard Apple was prototyping a minivan. Want one.
I drove a leased BMW i3 (33 kWHr model) for 3 years and now own a Model 3. It was, is my commute car to work, which is about 41 miles round trip. I always charge in the early morning and have a full charge every morning, or a set charge level every morning in the case of the Model 3. So, I've only gone to a charging station to see what it is like, which is just as boring as getting gas.
The i3 averaged about 5 miles per kWHr for my commute, which was mostly city streets. For most of the i3 lease, I was paying 8.8¢ per kWHr for electricity, resulting in a consumables driving cost of 1.76¢ per mile driven. My prior vehicle was a BMW 228. I averaged about 29 mpg. For those years, premium gas cost about $3 per gallon, resulting in a driving cost of 10.34¢ per gallon. A nice bit of savings there!
If a gas car has an efficiency of 50 mpg and gas is $1 per gallon, it will then be close to electricity costs to EVs, and the costs of energy for the two will be about the same. It would be an interesting comparison to see what people they decide, especially if the vehicles are in the same class. I'd be quite happy if the average fuel efficiency for vehicles is 50 mpg, and we'd all be winners if so. Unfortunately, the USA is sitting at something like 20 mpg, and gas has to get to $2 to $3 per gallon for oil as a business to work.
My electricity costs jumped 25% last year to 11¢ per kWHr and that was enough for me to get solar panels. Just a no brainer decision as it was a win-win-win. Hoping if Apple actually sells a car, it will have solar surfaces everywhere, including hood, dash, trunk and even the windows. It would basically reduce the from-the-grid energy usage from the car in half for my driving habits. Some people who live less than 10 miles from work could basically drive it in perpetuity. There would be yet another win with a bidirectional charger at home, a nice 1 kW capacity uplift and the ability to use the car battery to power the home when needed. And an even bigger win if I'm paid to be part of a virtual power plant for high demand times, especially at high dollar feed-in rates.
I see so many parallels between Tesla & Apple. Of course not just limited to them, but it seems to me like the advancement of very good micro-controllers, cpu,gpu, energy efficient power electronics, software, etc have all contributed to this re-birth of old tech. Tesla induction motor, PMM, reluctance machine, etc. Much like OS X aqua-layered and thereby modernized an old tried/trued mature tech system: Unix, (FreeBSD). Apple was able to take a old computing system, mix it with modern code, and build-off of its stable unix core, to make a stable operating system. Tesla was able to overcome some technical issues and enhance efficiency of the Tesla induction motor and with code and computing have even figured out how to make a PMM motor; SRM generally work quite well, albeit with still slight, very slight cogging issues, but nothing consequential. All in all pretty cool stuff. Too bad Apple is so behind, but for good and very real reasons. Apple Tech is just not up to snuff in compared to Tesla. Apple still makes "toys" but that's ok, because for the most part some of the toys are fun.
It would be interesting to see a low voltage squirrel cage induction motor being used with ultra low inductance, they are very recent and have exceedingly high efficiency with GaN semiconductors. It just requires FPGA based control due to the high switching / control loop frequency.
Classical high voltage systems are boring and easy to implement <.<
Good news! Soon we can stop the insanity of going to a gas station once or twice a week!
How often will we have to pay to charge at charging stations, rather than just charging after use at home?
None. According to the RAC, the average car commute in the UK is ten miles. Most EVs can handle that without a problem. That’s why a lot new office buildings reserve spaces for EV charging, usually on the ground floor, near the exit.
Your next question is probably going to be about traffic jams, so I’ll answer it now. EVs and hybrids power down the engine when they’re stationary. Mine certainly does. I understand a lot of petrol engines can do that too.
Comments
Now, for trips, you are correct, it will take a bit longer. But a 30-45 minute charge stop makes for a relaxing meal break. Given 95% or more of my driving is commuting or short errands, I tend to hit public chargers only a handful of times per year, so a little more time is not a critical factor to me. Trips are definitely more of a smell the roses kind of proposition in EVs.
As for cost, my electricity to operate the EV costs about 1/3 of what I paid for gas in a 43 MPG Hybrid. EPA ratings for EVs assumes 1 gallons of gas = 33.7 kWh or electricity. Based on this, my commute averages about 150-170MPGe.
The ride is quiet, the acceleration is instant and surprising, and I rarely have to use the brake pedal, even in stop and go traffic. Driving is actually fun again.
Don't be so quick to resist EVs. They are actually a good fit for more of us than you would think.
And if and when they announce a vehicle, it would be another 2 years before it ships! This assumes they break ground on an assembly plant at the same time.
And if and when they announce a vehicle, it would be another 2 years before it ships! This assumes they break ground on an assembly plant at the same time.
Just about every weekend from August through March I'm on the road, traveling to just about every ice rink in the tri-state area. That means every weekend I would either be;
A.) Dead on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck.
B.) Sweating bullets I make it to the next charging station, while freezing my rear off because the heater is turned off.
C.) Sitting at a charging station with the family in freezing weather waiting to get enough juice to get us home.
These are nothing but expensive toys for now, and will be for at least the next decade if not two. And this is coming from someone who owns a Hybrid. I want these to be a thing but they just aren't.
Electrics aren’t practical for apartment dwellers, which is a large part of the population.
And? If an object isn't practical for a certain buyers they usually don't buy them, but this is a growing segment (which you oddly acknowledge when it's about Tesla's competitors) and there are solutions in place.
https://www.chargepoint.com/businesses/apartments-and-condos/
The reason she does do it is simply because it's on the route home, free and she can pick up stuff from a shopping centre that is right next to the charging station.
One of they key benefits for her is her monthly outlay is far more stable than with having to deal with unpredictable petrol prices. She can literally travel for free through tunnels that run through the mountain (normally the toll fee is high but EVs are not charged) cutting journey time in half and avoiding the 'free' road which is a winding mountain coastal road. Also, access to Barcelona is dynamically speed controlled depending on pollution levels and is becoming evermore restrictive to vehicles that put particles into the air.
Barcelona is also a very noisy city and EVs (once in wider use) will dramatically reduce noise pollution.
Of course a more complete economic and value analysis needs to include higher first cost, much lower maintenance cost, and longer life of EVs, the superior driving experience, and the convenience of not having to drive somewhere and babysit filling versus “tank is full every morning”, etc. But the idea that EVs are a “financial loser below $4/gal” is just made up. Break even is $1.10/gallon. As a now-experienced EV driver, rest assured that gasoline can stay below $1/gal as long as you want, I’ll never buy another gas burner again.
When I have enough saved to buy a model Y I'll buy a model why no matter what the cost of gas. Hope all gas companies foreign and domestic go out of business.
$1 per gallon gas isn't tenable for the current oil economy. Today's cheap gas prices are a consequence of oversupply coupled with very low demand. It may be that demand will pick up again in a few weeks, but that'll mean gas prices will go up again. Enjoy it while you can. The supply-demand balance has to get to about $2 per gallon or higher in the USA for oil companies to actually stay in business. If demand doesn't pick up quickly enough, oil and gas companies will have reduce supply, go out of business, restructure to be able to profitably operate in a cheaper oil market.
As for people who would buy an EV with $1/gallon gas prices? Me! I would. I don't pay anything for the energy to drive my EV, we plan on getting a second, and eventually a minivan EV. I definitely perked up when I heard Apple was prototyping a minivan. Want one.
The i3 averaged about 5 miles per kWHr for my commute, which was mostly city streets. For most of the i3 lease, I was paying 8.8¢ per kWHr for electricity, resulting in a consumables driving cost of 1.76¢ per mile driven. My prior vehicle was a BMW 228. I averaged about 29 mpg. For those years, premium gas cost about $3 per gallon, resulting in a driving cost of 10.34¢ per gallon. A nice bit of savings there!
If a gas car has an efficiency of 50 mpg and gas is $1 per gallon, it will then be close to electricity costs to EVs, and the costs of energy for the two will be about the same. It would be an interesting comparison to see what people they decide, especially if the vehicles are in the same class. I'd be quite happy if the average fuel efficiency for vehicles is 50 mpg, and we'd all be winners if so. Unfortunately, the USA is sitting at something like 20 mpg, and gas has to get to $2 to $3 per gallon for oil as a business to work.
My electricity costs jumped 25% last year to 11¢ per kWHr and that was enough for me to get solar panels. Just a no brainer decision as it was a win-win-win. Hoping if Apple actually sells a car, it will have solar surfaces everywhere, including hood, dash, trunk and even the windows. It would basically reduce the from-the-grid energy usage from the car in half for my driving habits. Some people who live less than 10 miles from work could basically drive it in perpetuity. There would be yet another win with a bidirectional charger at home, a nice 1 kW capacity uplift and the ability to use the car battery to power the home when needed. And an even bigger win if I'm paid to be part of a virtual power plant for high demand times, especially at high dollar feed-in rates.
Classical high voltage systems are boring and easy to implement <.<