Why do any Apple users care about PCs? Why waste your time comparing hardware. This is an Apple-related website so why bother? Does the Dell hardware run macOS? No, so none of this matters to Apple users.
I don't agree with this assertion at all. As someone who uses both Macs and PCs I find it very informative to see a PC evaluated from a Mac perspective. Why? Because the Mac always sets a very high standard on the hardware side because there are no low-cost, low-quality, sub-par, plastic fantastic Macs to use as value comparisons. In the Windows PC world there are tons and tons of low-end PCs of every price and quality to use as comparisons. Even a mediocre, less plasticky PC can seem pretty decent if you compare it to a junk PC. There are no junk Macs. If Dell is putting together a Window system that compares favorably to a Mac, that says something to me and others who may be in the market for a Windows PC.
One takeaway from these Mac versus legitimately-decent-PC comparisons is the evaporation of the "Mac Tax" myth. If you want a Mac-quality PC you're going to be paying Mac-quality prices. I have no problem with that, but you'd better do your homework to make sure all of the things you take for granted with a Mac, like excellent technical and customer support and having a stable and non-fidgety operation system are going to be there on the PC side if you go in that direction. For a lot of people who use both a Mac and a PC there are some very specific and vitally important applications that keep us tied to each platform, so it's important that we have the right hardware on both the Mac and Windows/Linux side, so these reviews are very helpful.
MacBooks are 90+% off the shelf materials -- so pretty much anybody can match their hardware (or at least close enough to not make a difference worth noting).
What sets Macs apart from the rest is Apple's ecosystem, infrastructure and OS. But people continue to stare into bright sun of hardware specs.
Industrial design (hardware) is certainly part of the Apple feature set, and something that people buy into over competitor products. If the experience of the hardware wasn't class leading, class competitive, Apple wouldn't be able to sell at their prices. Unfortunately, industrial design can't be boiled down into a tabular comparison and is highly subjective to individual reviewers. Mind that while reviewers are subjective, populations are not. Apple is trying to get the top tier 10% of the population with their industrial design, and what you say here is also part of that: consumer service, Unix, user experience, etc.
Industrial design includes things like the thermal design, asymmetrically spaced impeller blades in their blowers that produce a more pleasing white noise, the Touch Bar, the keyboard feel, the coolness (temperature) of aluminum, Thunderbolt ports, 5K and 6K display support, left-right symmetry, slipper glass haptic trackpads, the levelness and clean lines, etc.
These 2020 XPS models look like they adjusted the plastic+aluminum sandwich industrial design of older models. The industrial design was really a plastic body with metal top and bottom plates. At least they look like metal, not sure. It looks like it still has a plastic "top" part in the base, where your hands would rest. It's not a unibody style design either. So, maybe the biggest change was the bottom plate and the sides being one piece now. The interior is basically straight Apple layout and packaging. It looks like it draws air in from the bottom through grills on the left and blows it out through the rear edge. Someone should check on how this affects cooling if those grills are covered. I assume air will be drawn in from the side slots like in Apple's design (which is also where the audio goes out).
Good to see that they moved to 16:10 aspect ratio on the display. Also, it has a huge trackpads like Apple's 4th gen MBP models. While people may not be able to precisely elucidate why this or that industrial design is "better", they certainly can tell at a gestalt level. The hardware is important. The chip or feature set comparisons are often Charlie Brown-esque adult speak, but the emotional connection of good industrial design will be there as they can see it, feel it.
As for Apple, the shoes will hopefully drop on the ARM Macs soon. That's when they can finally start moving away from the unibody aluminum and glass industrial design that has been so mimicked in PC laptops for a long long time now. These Intel 14 nm chips are really an embarrassment. If you read laptopmag.com 2019 XPS 15 review, there is a horrifying statement:
The XPS 15 can get a bit hot under the collar, but thanks to venting located in front of the hinge and along the bottom of the laptop, it's never uncomfortable to use in your lap. After 15 minutes of playing a YouTube video, the touchpad measured a cool 88 degrees Fahrenheit. The center of the keyboard reached 96 degrees, which is just above our 95-degree comfort threshold. The notebook's undercarriage was a warm 102 degrees.
This is pure doublespeak shit as far as I tell. 88 °F on the touchpad is cool? 95 °F is their "comfort" threshold? 102 °F is "warm"? Those are insane criteria. The 10th gen Comet Lake-H chips will run hotter. It does look like Dell has redesigned the thermal design, so hopefully these types of numbers will be cooler with the 2020 models.
Until this latest edition, the industrial design of MacBooks included: obsolete CPUs, non-upgradeable components, required a pack of dongles, lacked touchscreens and used a crappy keyboard that cost $700 to replace.
Thinkpads and others had equal or better industrial designs.
No, it's Apple and its infrastructure and ecosystem that set them apart. Based strictly on (high end) hardware, which you prefer depends mostly on personal preference.
I have the misfortune of using a company-issued XPS 13 on a daily basis. It is a total piece of garbage. Literally the only advantage this has over any MacBook I have used in the past decade is the light on the power cord to show you when it's plugged into the wall. The trackpad is atrocious compared to any Mac track pad, to say nothing of the latest Apple versions. It's bad at ignoring stray touches; the cursor movement is poor; and the gestures (copied straight from Apple) just don't work as well. But here's the best part. Because I leave my laptop plugged in 22 hours a day (as I do with my MacBooks to no ill effect), the battery has swollen to that the track pad is bulging out the case and the keyboard is visually/physically bulging. When I close the laptop there is a 1 cm gap between the screen and the palm rest.
Here's Dell's hand-waving response to this common problem (impacting at least 20% of the XPS 13s we have in house):
Lithium-Ion Polymer Technology: Battery swelling is a failure mode associated with a type of battery cell technology called Lithium-ion Polymer. Lithium-ion Polymer batteries have become popular across the industry in recent years due to their slim and customizable form factor and longer battery useful life. Lithium-ion Polymer batteries are housed in a flexible multi-layer pouch, which may sometimes swell for a variety of reasons including but not limited to age, usage pattern, and environmental conditions.
In contrast, older model notebooks across the industry used lithium-ion cylindrical cells, which had a metal casing and did not swell.
The risk of battery swelling, while low, is inherent with Lithium-ion Polymer cell technology, which is widely used across the tech industry (not unique to Dell or PCs). The issue is industry-wide affecting all notebook computer companies.
Emphasis mine. Not unique to "PCs"? So apparently this must be just as prevalent with MacBooks, by implication. Funny, I've never heard anyone hear post a complain about a swelling MacBook or any other Apple device. I thinking Dell is full of shit on this. Personally, I'll never spend a dime on a Dell PC (and not only because I don't intend to ever buy a Windows computer).
The only good thing about our company standardizing on this crappy laptop is that now every conference room has a USB-C to HDMI adapter since Dell followed Apple's lead and omitted USB-A ports.
Full disclosure. I formerly worked at Apple and now work at Dell. My personal system is a MacBook Pro while my work system is of course Dell (Latitude 7400). It's always amazed me that Apple could take essentially a single platform and sell it to both Consumer and Business customers. There is some limited configurability, but it's essentially the same product. Dell, and other PC manufacturers build products (and brands) for specific market segments such as Consumer, General Business, Education, and Workstation. The new XPS15 and XPS17 are 'crossover' platforms that share most of the same components with their Workstation counterparts, the Precision 5550 and 5750. These products are also 'certified' to run specific technical apps from Autodesk, Adobe, Dassault, Synopsis, Cadence, etc. and have a few more CPU and GPU options.
From strictly a hardware perspective, Apple and Dell both have their strengths, weakness, and the choice is increasingly based on user preference. What really differentiates these platforms are the 'ecosystems' that both reside in. Dell is firmly in the Microsoft ecosystem, although the XPS 15 and 17 can run many of the widely available Linux distributions. Dell also bundles optimizer software, on Business laptops. Since Apple writes the operating system they can add such features directly into the OS. The primary Mac differentiator is that Apple engineers and builds both the Hardware & Operating System + a few 1st party applications. This gives the user a more unique experience, but tends to limit the choice of options. Dell laptops also tend to be more serviceable as components are more easily added/swapped and user accessible. I know this site is devoted to Apple, but I am happy to answer Dell-related questions
randominternetperson said:Because I leave my laptop plugged in 22 hours a day (as I do with my MacBooks to no ill effect), the battery has swollen to that the track pad is bulging out the case and the keyboard is visually/physically bulging. When I close the laptop there is a 1 cm gap between the screen and the palm rest.
Here's Dell's hand-waving response to this common problem (impacting at least 20% of the XPS 13s we have in house):
Lithium-Ion Polymer Technology: Battery swelling is a failure mode associated with a type of battery cell technology called Lithium-ion Polymer. Lithium-ion Polymer batteries have become popular across the industry in recent years due to their slim and customizable form factor and longer battery useful life. Lithium-ion Polymer batteries are housed in a flexible multi-layer pouch, which may sometimes swell for a variety of reasons including but not limited to age, usage pattern, and environmental conditions.
In contrast, older model notebooks across the industry used lithium-ion cylindrical cells, which had a metal casing and did not swell.
The risk of battery swelling, while low, is inherent with Lithium-ion Polymer cell technology, which is widely used across the tech industry (not unique to Dell or PCs). The issue is industry-wide affecting all notebook computer companies.
Emphasis mine. Not unique to "PCs"? So apparently this must be just as prevalent with MacBooks, by implication. Funny, I've never heard anyone hear post a complain about a swelling MacBook or any other Apple device. I thinking Dell is full of shit on this.
I have the misfortune of using a company-issued XPS 13 on a daily basis. It is a total piece of garbage. Literally the only advantage this has over any MacBook I have used in the past decade is the light on the power cord to show you when it's plugged into the wall. The trackpad is atrocious compared to any Mac track pad, to say nothing of the latest Apple versions. It's bad at ignoring stray touches; the cursor movement is poor; and the gestures (copied straight from Apple) just don't work as well. But here's the best part. Because I leave my laptop plugged in 22 hours a day (as I do with my MacBooks to no ill effect), the battery has swollen to that the track pad is bulging out the case and the keyboard is visually/physically bulging. When I close the laptop there is a 1 cm gap between the screen and the palm rest.
Here's Dell's hand-waving response to this common problem (impacting at least 20% of the XPS 13s we have in house):
Lithium-Ion Polymer Technology: Battery swelling is a failure mode associated with a type of battery cell technology called Lithium-ion Polymer. Lithium-ion Polymer batteries have become popular across the industry in recent years due to their slim and customizable form factor and longer battery useful life. Lithium-ion Polymer batteries are housed in a flexible multi-layer pouch, which may sometimes swell for a variety of reasons including but not limited to age, usage pattern, and environmental conditions.
In contrast, older model notebooks across the industry used lithium-ion cylindrical cells, which had a metal casing and did not swell.
The risk of battery swelling, while low, is inherent with Lithium-ion Polymer cell technology, which is widely used across the tech industry (not unique to Dell or PCs). The issue is industry-wide affecting all notebook computer companies.
Emphasis mine. Not unique to "PCs"? So apparently this must be just as prevalent with MacBooks, by implication. Funny, I've never heard anyone hear post a complain about a swelling MacBook or any other Apple device. I thinking Dell is full of shit on this. Personally, I'll never spend a dime on a Dell PC (and not only because I don't intend to ever buy a Windows computer).
The only good thing about our company standardizing on this crappy laptop is that now every conference room has a USB-C to HDMI adapter since Dell followed Apple's lead and omitted USB-A ports.
Over the years I've had four MBP batteries swell up and one very nearly killed the trackpad. First symptoms are often trackpad related so you can get an early warning and shouldn't see permanent damage but it can happen.
I have the misfortune of using a company-issued XPS 13 on a daily basis. It is a total piece of garbage. Literally the only advantage this has over any MacBook I have used in the past decade is the light on the power cord to show you when it's plugged into the wall. The trackpad is atrocious compared to any Mac track pad, to say nothing of the latest Apple versions. It's bad at ignoring stray touches; the cursor movement is poor; and the gestures (copied straight from Apple) just don't work as well. But here's the best part. Because I leave my laptop plugged in 22 hours a day (as I do with my MacBooks to no ill effect), the battery has swollen to that the track pad is bulging out the case and the keyboard is visually/physically bulging. When I close the laptop there is a 1 cm gap between the screen and the palm rest.
Here's Dell's hand-waving response to this common problem (impacting at least 20% of the XPS 13s we have in house):
Lithium-Ion Polymer Technology: Battery swelling is a failure mode associated with a type of battery cell technology called Lithium-ion Polymer. Lithium-ion Polymer batteries have become popular across the industry in recent years due to their slim and customizable form factor and longer battery useful life. Lithium-ion Polymer batteries are housed in a flexible multi-layer pouch, which may sometimes swell for a variety of reasons including but not limited to age, usage pattern, and environmental conditions.
In contrast, older model notebooks across the industry used lithium-ion cylindrical cells, which had a metal casing and did not swell.
The risk of battery swelling, while low, is inherent with Lithium-ion Polymer cell technology, which is widely used across the tech industry (not unique to Dell or PCs). The issue is industry-wide affecting all notebook computer companies.
Emphasis mine. Not unique to "PCs"? So apparently this must be just as prevalent with MacBooks, by implication. Funny, I've never heard anyone hear post a complain about a swelling MacBook or any other Apple device. I thinking Dell is full of shit on this. Personally, I'll never spend a dime on a Dell PC (and not only because I don't intend to ever buy a Windows computer).
The only good thing about our company standardizing on this crappy laptop is that now every conference room has a USB-C to HDMI adapter since Dell followed Apple's lead and omitted USB-A ports.
I'm surprised that a company would issue XPS machines versus the corporate focused Latitude or Precision variants. I've had several Dell notebooks and desktops that were intended for commercial/managed environments and they seemed to hold up well to travel and everyday use, although they were on a nominal 3-year refresh cycle so who knows how well they survived beyond their refresh date. Sure, there were a couple of notebook keyboard failures, a few hard disks going south, some battery recalls, etc., but nothing horrible - which is admittedly a low bar to use as a reference. Remember, in the PC world, the "It doesn't suck!" quality bar is a not-bad thing.
On the personal side, my own Dell computers have held up quite well with minor disabilities like loud fans and a stuck key here and there, but they can all run Windows 10 decently well, a backward compatibility scenario that Apple cannot boast with macOS. Once again, lowering your expectations goes a long way towards improving your outlook in a Windows PC world.
Selling computers into big corporations that have tens of thousands of computers to manage is a whole different ballgame. Dell, with help from service providers (and formerly in-house staff before all of this work got outsourced) seems to work okay in push-mode update scenarios (even though it infuriates developers or pushes them to develop on VMs). I have no real experience with Apple as the only supplier in a big corporate, managed computing setting, but Macs are popular with some designers and some developers, especially when having one allowed them to bypass central control and bring their machines to the Apple Store for service.
The big difference for me is when I call for support from Dell regarding hardware issues it's typically about as far removed from the Apple (hardware) Support experience as one could imagine. Not that Apple's support staff is flawless, I've gotten some incredibly stupid suggested fixes to nagging iCloud account and software problems from Apple support even after escalating the problem above the initial layer of support and spending more than 2 hours on the phone or having incidents that live on for many days or weeks. There are some things that Apple will not fix even though they created the problem. If you check the user forums for Apple or Dell you'll see that neither support network is perfect. If Apple's hardware support is a 9/10 I'd give their software/services support a 4/10 based on my personal experience. Dell would be 5/10 on hardware and a "don't bother" on software problems. If you can't figure out software problems on a Windows PC by yourself, you're unlikely to get the PC maker to help you in any meaningful way other than to reinstall Windows.
Lithium Ion battery swelling is absolutely a problem with Apple products too. Just in the past 3 years I've lost 2 iPod Touch devices, 1 iPad Mini, 1 iPhone 6 Plus, and 1 first gen iPad to battery bloat. I also lost a portable hard disk that had a built-in battery and WiFi hotspot to battery bloat. Devices with embedded lithium ion batteries are the same as skylights mounted in the roof of your house - it's never a question of whether they will leak, it's just a question of when they will leak.
Why do any Apple users care about PCs? Why waste your time comparing hardware. This is an Apple-related website so why bother? Does the Dell hardware run macOS? No, so none of this matters to Apple users.
Of course the MBP can run Windows
We aren't just plucking topics out of thin air. The compare pieces we do, are selected on volume of requests by Apple users.
It is a cross-platform world, now more than it has been in the last decade. More knowledge is better than less.
And, to be honest, Windows 10 is pretty much on par with MacOS -- the major functions are pretty similar.
But, obviously, it does not include Apple's support, infrastructure and ecosystem -- such as, for example, its integrations with WatchOS, iOS and iPadOS.
I spent all of last year working on a Windows 10 Dell workstation running mostly VMWare (with a Windows 10 guest) and I have to completely disagree that Windows 10 is even close to macOS --though the version was pre-WLS (Windows Subsystem for Linux). For example, just trying to open very large files was a nightmare. As a developer, many log files can exceed 1 GB in size and as far as I can tell, there is no way to open such a file in Windows 10 easily. There were other quirks too that may just be my dislike of the odd inconsistencies of Windows. Click on an application icon in the task bar, and nothing happens for 5 seconds, so you click again, then two copies of the app opens or you get an error. The lack of feedback is sometimes very painful.
I used Windows 10 for a year, it wasn't horrible but it just doesn't compare to the elegance of macOS. So many times, I wanted a command line or macOS tool that just didn't exist on the Windows side. Given any choice, I would always choose macOS. It certainly is worth several hundred dollars of extra cost for a MacBook Pro over a Dell.
The thermal system on the XPS 15 has been improved from last year's design. The XPS 17 is a complete departure with the implementation of a vapor chamber.
Internally, these are modular and user serviceable. Not at all like a MacBook Pro.
That's not plastic, it's carbon fibre.
Dave Lee had a nice hands on with early engineering samples (this is not his full review, that's still to come):
[video link deleted]
He described the XPS 17's vapor chamber cooling solution as very impressive.
Lee said the top part of the base, where are the keyboard and trackpad are, is part carbon fiber and part plastic. The plastic part is upper half where the keyboard is. Strange way to do it. Why not have all carbon fiber instead of fusing two different materials for the top side of the base?
The vapor chamber is but one part of the cooling system. It's basically serialized, where the efficiency of the system is only as efficient as its least efficient section from the CPU and GPU to the air blowing across the radiator fins and out. So, Intel has to improve the packaging heat trasnfer performance, and Dell is using a vapor chamber on it, it has to improve the heat pipe performance to the radiator fins, has to improve the radiator fin design, and has to improve the fan performance on both the inlet and outlet sides. It's good that they did. They shouldn't have to, but you have to do what you have to do.
Also, the video showed why there are not any pictures of the rear of these XPS 15 and 17 models:
I did a literal WTF when I first saw that. That's one gigantic flange for the exhaust. I'm still curious on what happens if this is on someone's lap and their lap covers the inlet side of the blowers. Flow will still squeak in from the sides. Just wondering if cooling performance will be reduced.
GeorgeBMac said: Until this latest edition, the industrial design of MacBooks included: obsolete CPUs, non-upgradeable components, required a pack of dongles, lacked touchscreens and used a crappy keyboard that cost $700 to replace.
Thinkpads and others had equal or better industrial designs.
No, it's Apple and its infrastructure and ecosystem that set them apart. Based strictly on (high end) hardware, which you prefer depends mostly on personal preference.
We really are not that far apart. Yes, Apple has good consumer service, a good OS, and a constellation of devices and accessories that work well with their devices. Industrial design is in fact hardware though. People can say hardware, and maybe that is understood as the chip components and specifications of the major components (battery, display, etc), but the case design, the industrial design, the interior design is hardware too. When Apple says hardware, they are thinking of the latter, not the commodity chips.
The criticisms of non-upgradeable parts, old CPUs, etc, is basically the same criticism for decades running. It should tell you something that a certain niche of people value other parts of the hardware over the chip components. Thinkpads are nice. That's why it has survived as a decades long brand. It's not an exclusive club.
I have the misfortune of using a company-issued XPS 13 on a daily basis. It is a total piece of garbage. Literally the only advantage this has over any MacBook I have used in the past decade is the light on the power cord to show you when it's plugged into the wall. The trackpad is atrocious compared to any Mac track pad, to say nothing of the latest Apple versions. It's bad at ignoring stray touches; the cursor movement is poor; and the gestures (copied straight from Apple) just don't work as well. But here's the best part. Because I leave my laptop plugged in 22 hours a day (as I do with my MacBooks to no ill effect), the battery has swollen to that the track pad is bulging out the case and the keyboard is visually/physically bulging. When I close the laptop there is a 1 cm gap between the screen and the palm rest.
Here's Dell's hand-waving response to this common problem (impacting at least 20% of the XPS 13s we have in house):
Lithium-Ion Polymer Technology: Battery swelling is a failure mode associated with a type of battery cell technology called Lithium-ion Polymer. Lithium-ion Polymer batteries have become popular across the industry in recent years due to their slim and customizable form factor and longer battery useful life. Lithium-ion Polymer batteries are housed in a flexible multi-layer pouch, which may sometimes swell for a variety of reasons including but not limited to age, usage pattern, and environmental conditions.
In contrast, older model notebooks across the industry used lithium-ion cylindrical cells, which had a metal casing and did not swell.
The risk of battery swelling, while low, is inherent with Lithium-ion Polymer cell technology, which is widely used across the tech industry (not unique to Dell or PCs). The issue is industry-wide affecting all notebook computer companies.
Emphasis mine. Not unique to "PCs"? So apparently this must be just as prevalent with MacBooks, by implication. Funny, I've never heard anyone hear post a complain about a swelling MacBook or any other Apple device. I thinking Dell is full of shit on this. Personally, I'll never spend a dime on a Dell PC (and not only because I don't intend to ever buy a Windows computer).
The only good thing about our company standardizing on this crappy laptop is that now every conference room has a USB-C to HDMI adapter since Dell followed Apple's lead and omitted USB-A ports.
Over the years I've had four MBP batteries swell up and one very nearly killed the trackpad. First symptoms are often trackpad related so you can get an early warning and shouldn't see permanent damage but it can happen.
Four out of approximately how many, may I ask? Personally, I’m 0 for 4 for MBPs and 0 for 8 for MacBooks in general. I hope my experience is more typical than yours.
The thermal system on the XPS 15 has been improved from last year's design. The XPS 17 is a complete departure with the implementation of a vapor chamber.
Internally, these are modular and user serviceable. Not at all like a MacBook Pro.
That's not plastic, it's carbon fibre.
Dave Lee had a nice hands on with early engineering samples (this is not his full review, that's still to come):
[video link deleted]
He described the XPS 17's vapor chamber cooling solution as very impressive.
Lee said the top part of the base, where are the keyboard and trackpad are, is part carbon fiber and part plastic. The plastic part is upper half where the keyboard is. Strange way to do it. Why not have all carbon fiber instead of fusing two different materials for the top side of the base?
The vapor chamber is but one part of the cooling system. It's basically serialized, where the efficiency of the system is only as efficient as its least efficient section from the CPU and GPU to the air blowing across the radiator fins and out. So, Intel has to improve the packaging heat trasnfer performance, and Dell is using a vapor chamber on it, it has to improve the heat pipe performance to the radiator fins, has to improve the radiator fin design, and has to improve the fan performance on both the inlet and outlet sides. It's good that they did. They shouldn't have to, but you have to do what you have to do.
Also, the video showed why there are not any pictures of the rear of these XPS 15 and 17 models:
I did a literal WTF when I first saw that. That's one gigantic flange for the exhaust. I'm still curious on what happens if this is on someone's lap and their lap covers the inlet side of the blowers. Flow will still squeak in from the sides. Just wondering if cooling performance will be reduced.
Yes, the speaker grills and space between the keys are plastic.
At the end of the video he even called out Dell asking for AMD versions. Given the 35W Ryzen 4000H series levels of performance, it probably would be quite beneficial.
I'd imagine the cooling solution would still perform given the intake size and spacing. Although, we'll probably have to wait for full reviews with the production models to really know.
Huh my first comment never appeared. I said thank you to the a number of you who pointed out that I overlooked posts about swollen batteries with MacBooks (and other devices) in recent years. I stand corrected.
Huh my first comment never appeared. I said thank you to the a number of you who pointed out that I overlooked posts about swollen batteries with MacBooks (and other devices) in recent years. I stand corrected.
I have the misfortune of using a company-issued XPS 13 on a daily basis. It is a total piece of garbage. Literally the only advantage this has over any MacBook I have used in the past decade is the light on the power cord to show you when it's plugged into the wall. The trackpad is atrocious compared to any Mac track pad, to say nothing of the latest Apple versions. It's bad at ignoring stray touches; the cursor movement is poor; and the gestures (copied straight from Apple) just don't work as well. But here's the best part. Because I leave my laptop plugged in 22 hours a day (as I do with my MacBooks to no ill effect), the battery has swollen to that the track pad is bulging out the case and the keyboard is visually/physically bulging. When I close the laptop there is a 1 cm gap between the screen and the palm rest.
Here's Dell's hand-waving response to this common problem (impacting at least 20% of the XPS 13s we have in house):
Lithium-Ion Polymer Technology: Battery swelling is a failure mode associated with a type of battery cell technology called Lithium-ion Polymer. Lithium-ion Polymer batteries have become popular across the industry in recent years due to their slim and customizable form factor and longer battery useful life. Lithium-ion Polymer batteries are housed in a flexible multi-layer pouch, which may sometimes swell for a variety of reasons including but not limited to age, usage pattern, and environmental conditions.
In contrast, older model notebooks across the industry used lithium-ion cylindrical cells, which had a metal casing and did not swell.
The risk of battery swelling, while low, is inherent with Lithium-ion Polymer cell technology, which is widely used across the tech industry (not unique to Dell or PCs). The issue is industry-wide affecting all notebook computer companies.
Emphasis mine. Not unique to "PCs"? So apparently this must be just as prevalent with MacBooks, by implication. Funny, I've never heard anyone hear post a complain about a swelling MacBook or any other Apple device. I thinking Dell is full of shit on this. Personally, I'll never spend a dime on a Dell PC (and not only because I don't intend to ever buy a Windows computer).
The only good thing about our company standardizing on this crappy laptop is that now every conference room has a USB-C to HDMI adapter since Dell followed Apple's lead and omitted USB-A ports.
Over the years I've had four MBP batteries swell up and one very nearly killed the trackpad. First symptoms are often trackpad related so you can get an early warning and shouldn't see permanent damage but it can happen.
Four out of approximately how many, may I ask? Personally, I’m 0 for 4 for MBPs and 0 for 8 for MacBooks in general. I hope my experience is more typical than yours.
Four out of five. We squeeze as much as we can out of them so they basically work until they die. My 'current' MBP is from 2011. That is the one that almost lost the trackpad for good. When I swapped the battery out, I also installed an SSD and extra RAM and it got such a new lease of life that it still does me fine today.
The only one that hasn't had issues is the Air, also from 2011.
None of the tablets, iPods or iPhones have suffered from swollen batteries but some have had battery related issues from recalls through to premature failure.
I still use an iPad Mini 2.
All these devices (laptops or otherwise) only ever use Apple chargers.
I have the misfortune of using a company-issued XPS 13 on a daily basis. It is a total piece of garbage. Literally the only advantage this has over any MacBook I have used in the past decade is the light on the power cord to show you when it's plugged into the wall. The trackpad is atrocious compared to any Mac track pad, to say nothing of the latest Apple versions. It's bad at ignoring stray touches; the cursor movement is poor; and the gestures (copied straight from Apple) just don't work as well. But here's the best part. Because I leave my laptop plugged in 22 hours a day (as I do with my MacBooks to no ill effect), the battery has swollen to that the track pad is bulging out the case and the keyboard is visually/physically bulging. When I close the laptop there is a 1 cm gap between the screen and the palm rest.
Here's Dell's hand-waving response to this common problem (impacting at least 20% of the XPS 13s we have in house):
Lithium-Ion Polymer Technology: Battery swelling is a failure mode associated with a type of battery cell technology called Lithium-ion Polymer. Lithium-ion Polymer batteries have become popular across the industry in recent years due to their slim and customizable form factor and longer battery useful life. Lithium-ion Polymer batteries are housed in a flexible multi-layer pouch, which may sometimes swell for a variety of reasons including but not limited to age, usage pattern, and environmental conditions.
In contrast, older model notebooks across the industry used lithium-ion cylindrical cells, which had a metal casing and did not swell.
The risk of battery swelling, while low, is inherent with Lithium-ion Polymer cell technology, which is widely used across the tech industry (not unique to Dell or PCs). The issue is industry-wide affecting all notebook computer companies.
Emphasis mine. Not unique to "PCs"? So apparently this must be just as prevalent with MacBooks, by implication. Funny, I've never heard anyone hear post a complain about a swelling MacBook or any other Apple device. I thinking Dell is full of shit on this. Personally, I'll never spend a dime on a Dell PC (and not only because I don't intend to ever buy a Windows computer).
The only good thing about our company standardizing on this crappy laptop is that now every conference room has a USB-C to HDMI adapter since Dell followed Apple's lead and omitted USB-A ports.
Over the years I've had four MBP batteries swell up and one very nearly killed the trackpad. First symptoms are often trackpad related so you can get an early warning and shouldn't see permanent damage but it can happen.
Four out of approximately how many, may I ask? Personally, I’m 0 for 4 for MBPs and 0 for 8 for MacBooks in general. I hope my experience is more typical than yours.
Of all the Apple devices I have ever owned, I have had one keyboard failure and a SSD failure (2012 Retina MacBook Pro), one swollen battery (third generation iPod), one dead battery after four years (2016 MacBook Pro), and one broken trackpad button (Original PowerBook G3). My Mac Pro 4,1 just died of old age about two weeks ago.
In that same 25 years, I've gone about 1:1 on Apple to non-Apple devices, and had way, way more failures on that gear, and earlier in the lifecycle than the Apple gear.
While battery swellings do happen, Dell is a little dodgy about an XPS13 lineup that had a lot of problems overall. I suspect my experience with Apple stuff is similar to yours, randominternetperson.
While battery swellings do happen, Dell is a little dodgy about an XPS13 lineup that had a lot of problems overall. I suspect my experience with Apple stuff is similar to yours, randominternetperson.
FWIW, Dell recalled the battery in my XPS 9550 a few months after I got it and sent me a free replacement and pre-paid shipping for the return. Oh, and it was user-replaceable.
I've seen three or four swollen batteries in Apple products and one or two in the PC world (not including the above recall, which never actually swelled). I do think it mostly affects cheaply made batteries these days, but there did seem to be several years where it was a problem for everyone, even the top brands like Apple and Dell.
The maxed out 17" seems very compelling based on this review, especially at 30% less, and I wonder what the difference might be with non OEM upgrades as suggested as possible ? True 4K, touch screen vs the widely debated and insular touchbar (where is the 'ecosystem'?) and all the other onboard and glued in design we put up with for the macOS in the post SJ Apple design decision roll outs.
I've upgraded every mac I've ever owned, and stopped buying for upgradeability, repairability, adaptability and decreased legacy compatibility with the move to annual macOS updates and shortened 3 year macOS 'support'... My iMac is on its second logic board, screen, graphics card & HD, and my MBP on its 2nd logic board due to failures.
I've upgraded iMac RAM and trickled down the old to upgrade a mini, replaced a damaged magnet attached thunderbolt/cinema display glass, and on it goes. I currently run an older mac that will run apps from Rosetta to Mojave without a hack.
Too bad the Dell won't run macOS.
Is the review optimization category that seems missing the 'portable desktop' where occasional meetings are required ? Will this category be increasingly important as we telecommute more ?
Is the review optimization category that seems missing the 'portable desktop' where occasional meetings are required ? Will this category be increasingly important as we telecommute more ?
The desktop portables or workstation laptops never went away. By this I mean putting desktop components into laptop form factors. Gaming laptops are just added to that type of niche now. I think mass market laptops will continue to be driven toward thinner and lighter form factors as hardware performance has outstripped office automation app and web work software, for awhile now. 2 lb 13", 3 lb 15" and 4 lb 17" are going to be the targets in a couple of years.
These 2020 XPS 15 and 17 models look nice in a way, it uses many of the same design elements as Apple's MBP inside and outside, but I don't think they will touch Apple's targeted market for the MBP. They look really bulky and Apple most certainly are targeting customers who want svelte, mobile and powerful machines. Not desktop power, but a good triangulated set of features.
If you prefer more svelte or lightweight machines, these don't look you'd be buying it to me. The 97 WHr XPS 17 is going to weigh 5.5 lbs. They are some who won't mind that, but I think the vast majority of Apple's customers will, even if it was used mostly as a desktop. In a backpack, it maybe 8 lb of stuff to carry as it has a 130 W charging brick. The LG Gram 17 would be a better fit save for the asymmetric keyboard layout. The MBP16 will feel like a better machine, and I think Apple will continue to drive towards thinner and lighter.
And, these XPS machines aren't going to be competing against gaming laptops. So, curious how this will go for Dell. They look better than the prior models, but their triangulation of features don't look too great to me. AI is saying the 10th generation processors are better than 9th gen processors, but I'd really wait and see on that. Dell has a gigantic Enterprise presence, but I'm sure if those are all Inspirons or whatever their Enterprise laptops are branded as.
At the end of the video he even called out Dell asking for AMD versions. Given the 35W Ryzen 4000H series levels of performance, it probably would be quite beneficial.
Yes. With AMD being capacity constrained however, they can only serve so much of the market. Intel is going to ride that advantage until their next gen cores are out and their 10nm woes are overcome. AMD needs to have another great cycle with the Zen 3 cores to keep going. Maybe even fabbing on Samsung 7nm too.
Apple is going ARM. I can't see how they would let a full node advantage with TSMC 5nm slip away.
Yes, the speaker grills and space between the keys are plastic.
Point of pendantry. Those aren't speaker grills. The sound has to come out the slots on right and left sides on the bottom. This is Apple's design too, though their slot is also an air inlet. These 2020 XPS models have industrial design quite similar to Apple's MBP.
Comments
One takeaway from these Mac versus legitimately-decent-PC comparisons is the evaporation of the "Mac Tax" myth. If you want a Mac-quality PC you're going to be paying Mac-quality prices. I have no problem with that, but you'd better do your homework to make sure all of the things you take for granted with a Mac, like excellent technical and customer support and having a stable and non-fidgety operation system are going to be there on the PC side if you go in that direction. For a lot of people who use both a Mac and a PC there are some very specific and vitally important applications that keep us tied to each platform, so it's important that we have the right hardware on both the Mac and Windows/Linux side, so these reviews are very helpful.
Here's Dell's hand-waving response to this common problem (impacting at least 20% of the XPS 13s we have in house):
https://www.dell.com/support/article/en-us/sln320718/swollen-battery-information-and-guidance?lang=en
Emphasis mine. Not unique to "PCs"? So apparently this must be just as prevalent with MacBooks, by implication. Funny, I've never heard anyone hear post a complain about a swelling MacBook or any other Apple device. I thinking Dell is full of shit on this. Personally, I'll never spend a dime on a Dell PC (and not only because I don't intend to ever buy a Windows computer).
The only good thing about our company standardizing on this crappy laptop is that now every conference room has a USB-C to HDMI adapter since Dell followed Apple's lead and omitted USB-A ports.
From strictly a hardware perspective, Apple and Dell both have their strengths, weakness, and the choice is increasingly based on user preference. What really differentiates these platforms are the 'ecosystems' that both reside in. Dell is firmly in the Microsoft ecosystem, although the XPS 15 and 17 can run many of the widely available Linux distributions. Dell also bundles optimizer software, on Business laptops. Since Apple writes the operating system they can add such features directly into the OS. The primary Mac differentiator is that Apple engineers and builds both the Hardware & Operating System + a few 1st party applications. This gives the user a more unique experience, but tends to limit the choice of options. Dell laptops also tend to be more serviceable as components are more easily added/swapped and user accessible. I know this site is devoted to Apple, but I am happy to answer Dell-related questions
https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/20/apple-to-replace-swollen-13-inch-macbook-pro-without-touch-bar-batteries
https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/04/28/apple-extends-apple-watch-warranty-to-cope-with-swollen-batteries
On the personal side, my own Dell computers have held up quite well with minor disabilities like loud fans and a stuck key here and there, but they can all run Windows 10 decently well, a backward compatibility scenario that Apple cannot boast with macOS. Once again, lowering your expectations goes a long way towards improving your outlook in a Windows PC world.
Selling computers into big corporations that have tens of thousands of computers to manage is a whole different ballgame. Dell, with help from service providers (and formerly in-house staff before all of this work got outsourced) seems to work okay in push-mode update scenarios (even though it infuriates developers or pushes them to develop on VMs). I have no real experience with Apple as the only supplier in a big corporate, managed computing setting, but Macs are popular with some designers and some developers, especially when having one allowed them to bypass central control and bring their machines to the Apple Store for service.
The big difference for me is when I call for support from Dell regarding hardware issues it's typically about as far removed from the Apple (hardware) Support experience as one could imagine. Not that Apple's support staff is flawless, I've gotten some incredibly stupid suggested fixes to nagging iCloud account and software problems from Apple support even after escalating the problem above the initial layer of support and spending more than 2 hours on the phone or having incidents that live on for many days or weeks. There are some things that Apple will not fix even though they created the problem. If you check the user forums for Apple or Dell you'll see that neither support network is perfect. If Apple's hardware support is a 9/10 I'd give their software/services support a 4/10 based on my personal experience. Dell would be 5/10 on hardware and a "don't bother" on software problems. If you can't figure out software problems on a Windows PC by yourself, you're unlikely to get the PC maker to help you in any meaningful way other than to reinstall Windows.
Lithium Ion battery swelling is absolutely a problem with Apple products too. Just in the past 3 years I've lost 2 iPod Touch devices, 1 iPad Mini, 1 iPhone 6 Plus, and 1 first gen iPad to battery bloat. I also lost a portable hard disk that had a built-in battery and WiFi hotspot to battery bloat. Devices with embedded lithium ion batteries are the same as skylights mounted in the roof of your house - it's never a question of whether they will leak, it's just a question of when they will leak.
I used Windows 10 for a year, it wasn't horrible but it just doesn't compare to the elegance of macOS. So many times, I wanted a command line or macOS tool that just didn't exist on the Windows side. Given any choice, I would always choose macOS. It certainly is worth several hundred dollars of extra cost for a MacBook Pro over a Dell.
The vapor chamber is but one part of the cooling system. It's basically serialized, where the efficiency of the system is only as efficient as its least efficient section from the CPU and GPU to the air blowing across the radiator fins and out. So, Intel has to improve the packaging heat trasnfer performance, and Dell is using a vapor chamber on it, it has to improve the heat pipe performance to the radiator fins, has to improve the radiator fin design, and has to improve the fan performance on both the inlet and outlet sides. It's good that they did. They shouldn't have to, but you have to do what you have to do.
Also, the video showed why there are not any pictures of the rear of these XPS 15 and 17 models:
I did a literal WTF when I first saw that. That's one gigantic flange for the exhaust. I'm still curious on what happens if this is on someone's lap and their lap covers the inlet side of the blowers. Flow will still squeak in from the sides. Just wondering if cooling performance will be reduced.
The criticisms of non-upgradeable parts, old CPUs, etc, is basically the same criticism for decades running. It should tell you something that a certain niche of people value other parts of the hardware over the chip components. Thinkpads are nice. That's why it has survived as a decades long brand. It's not an exclusive club.
At the end of the video he even called out Dell asking for AMD versions. Given the 35W Ryzen 4000H series levels of performance, it probably would be quite beneficial.
I'd imagine the cooling solution would still perform given the intake size and spacing. Although, we'll probably have to wait for full reviews with the production models to really know.
https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/205156/apple-offers-replacements-for-swollen-13-inch-macbook-pro-batteries
The only one that hasn't had issues is the Air, also from 2011.
None of the tablets, iPods or iPhones have suffered from swollen batteries but some have had battery related issues from recalls through to premature failure.
I still use an iPad Mini 2.
All these devices (laptops or otherwise) only ever use Apple chargers.
In that same 25 years, I've gone about 1:1 on Apple to non-Apple devices, and had way, way more failures on that gear, and earlier in the lifecycle than the Apple gear.
I also ask about the Razer Blade options for review, although I expect the Dell may be more reliable. https://www.razer.com/gaming-laptops
I've upgraded every mac I've ever owned, and stopped buying for upgradeability, repairability, adaptability and decreased legacy compatibility with the move to annual macOS updates and shortened 3 year macOS 'support'... My iMac is on its second logic board, screen, graphics card & HD, and my MBP on its 2nd logic board due to failures.
I've upgraded iMac RAM and trickled down the old to upgrade a mini, replaced a damaged magnet attached thunderbolt/cinema display glass, and on it goes. I currently run an older mac that will run apps from Rosetta to Mojave without a hack.
Too bad the Dell won't run macOS.
Is the review optimization category that seems missing the 'portable desktop' where occasional meetings are required ?
Will this category be increasingly important as we telecommute more ?
These 2020 XPS 15 and 17 models look nice in a way, it uses many of the same design elements as Apple's MBP inside and outside, but I don't think they will touch Apple's targeted market for the MBP. They look really bulky and Apple most certainly are targeting customers who want svelte, mobile and powerful machines. Not desktop power, but a good triangulated set of features.
If you prefer more svelte or lightweight machines, these don't look you'd be buying it to me. The 97 WHr XPS 17 is going to weigh 5.5 lbs. They are some who won't mind that, but I think the vast majority of Apple's customers will, even if it was used mostly as a desktop. In a backpack, it maybe 8 lb of stuff to carry as it has a 130 W charging brick. The LG Gram 17 would be a better fit save for the asymmetric keyboard layout. The MBP16 will feel like a better machine, and I think Apple will continue to drive towards thinner and lighter.
And, these XPS machines aren't going to be competing against gaming laptops. So, curious how this will go for Dell. They look better than the prior models, but their triangulation of features don't look too great to me. AI is saying the 10th generation processors are better than 9th gen processors, but I'd really wait and see on that. Dell has a gigantic Enterprise presence, but I'm sure if those are all Inspirons or whatever their Enterprise laptops are branded as.
Apple is going ARM. I can't see how they would let a full node advantage with TSMC 5nm slip away.
Point of pendantry. Those aren't speaker grills. The sound has to come out the slots on right and left sides on the bottom. This is Apple's design too, though their slot is also an air inlet. These 2020 XPS models have industrial design quite similar to Apple's MBP.