Apple silicon Mac documentation suggests third-party GPU support in danger

AppleInsider

Some Apple support documentation seems to suggest that Mac shift to Apple silicon will drop support for non-Apple GPUs.

A MacBook Pro with an external GPU.

The Cupertino tech giant first announced the transition to Apple silicon at its WWDC keynote on June 22. Since then, more details have been surfacing about what exactly the change will entail.

For example, in a WWDC 2020 developer session focused on porting Metal apps to the new architecture, Apple made it clear that its Apple silicon Macs will sport custom Apple GPUs.

"Apple silicon Mac contains an Apple-designed GPU, whereas Intel-based Macs contain GPUs from Intel, AMD and NVIDIA," said Gokhan Avkarogullari, Apple's director of GPU software.

Credit: Apple

While Apple hasn't exactly detailed what that compatibility means, it seems to suggest that an ARM-based version of macOS could also drop support for Intel, NVIDIA and AMD graphics chips. It is similarly unclear what that means for eGPU support, although that may be more dependent on Thunderbolt 3 and driver compatibility.

As part of the shift to Apple GPUs in its Mac hardware, the company is also giving developers other hints at what's to come. In a developer support document, the company advises not to underestimate an integrated Apple GPU.

"Don't assume a discrete GPU means better performance," Apple wrote. "The integrated GPU in Apple processors is optimized for high performance graphics tasks."

It isn't clear what the statement means, other than a high-performing Apple-designed integrated GPU will be included in shipping Apple silicon Macs. There is no indication in support documentation that Apple will discontinue support for AMD GPUs for Intel Macs in future versions of macOS, but the statement above may also suggest that there may yet be an avenue for third-party PCI-E GPU support going forward.

Apple has been working on GPU hardware and software for years. The iPhone 8 and iPhone X devices in 2017 were the first to sport Apple-designed graphics solutions.

The Cupertino tech giant is also giving developers other advice amid the switch to Apple silicon, including on porting just-in-time (JIT) compilers.

"Always call before you execute any instructions from your threads. Instruction caches aren't coherent with data caches on Apple silicon, and unexpected results may occur if you execute instructions without invalidating the caches," a JIT document reads.

Apple has taken other steps to ensure the transition is a smooth one for developers. It's made available a Developer Transition Kit for app makers to get their hands on Apple silicon before a consumer release, and has implemented new virtualization and emulation software to ensure that ARM Macs can run Intel-based apps.

Rayz2016

Mmm. I’d sort of assumed they’d be doing their own GPUs. 

JinTech

Or you could read it as that this is what the Apple Silicon processor is directly compatible with. It doesn't say they will not support third-party. I could see Apple using their own GPU for primary tasks but third-party for more beefy tasks. Do we really think that Apple could compete with a GPU like the AMD Radeon Pro Vega II for professionals?

tmay

Rayz2016 said:

Mmm. I’d sort of assumed they’d be doing their own GPUs. 

Kind of makes me wonder if Apple is even going to use PCI express in their desktop models, instead creating their own expansion bus.

Mike Wuerthele

JinTech said:

Or you could read it as that this is what the Apple Silicon processor is directly compatible with. It doesn't say they will not support third-party. I could see Apple using their own GPU for primary tasks but third-party for more beefy tasks. Do we really think that Apple could compete with a GPU like the AMD Radeon Pro Vega II for professionals?

FTA: "There is no indication in support documentation that Apple will discontinue support for AMD GPUs for Intel Macs in future versions of macOS, but the statement above may also suggest that there may yet be an avenue for third-party PCI-E GPU support going forward."

melgross

I believe that Apple can compete with high end GPUs. But not on the SoC. Can they compete with lower end GPUs on the SoC? Certainly. Intel is getting to that point now, and so can Apple.

the other things being ignored is the new deal between Apple and Imagination. What that will lead to, we don’t yet know.

Rayz2016

JinTech said:

Or you could read it as that this is what the Apple Silicon processor is directly compatible with. It doesn't say they will not support third-party. I could see Apple using their own GPU for primary tasks but third-party for more beefy tasks. Do we really think that Apple could compete with a GPU like the AMD Radeon Pro Vega II for professionals?

Why not?

melgross

Mike Wuerthele said:

JinTech said:

Or you could read it as that this is what the Apple Silicon processor is directly compatible with. It doesn't say they will not support third-party. I could see Apple using their own GPU for primary tasks but third-party for more beefy tasks. Do we really think that Apple could compete with a GPU like the AMD Radeon Pro Vega II for professionals?

FTA: "There is no indication in support documentation that Apple will discontinue support for AMD GPUs for Intel Macs in future versions of macOS, but the statement above may also suggest that there may yet be an avenue for third-party PCI-E GPU support going forward."

You have to admit though, that the chart is provocative. It could have showed an Apple GPU or a theirs party GPU, but it didn’t.

AppleSince1976

tmay said:

Rayz2016 said:

Mmm. I’d sort of assumed they’d be doing their own GPUs. 

Kind of makes me wonder if Apple is even going to use PCI express in their desktop models, instead creating their own expansion bus.

I am pretty sure they wouldn't do that, especially not right after releasing the new Mac Pro.

No way could they get Avid on-board with a custom bus for their I/O cards, unless maybe if it was just insanely more capable than PCIe.

Plus, isn't Thunderbolt pretty-much wedded to PCIe?

Mike Wuerthele

melgross said:

Mike Wuerthele said:

JinTech said:

Or you could read it as that this is what the Apple Silicon processor is directly compatible with. It doesn't say they will not support third-party. I could see Apple using their own GPU for primary tasks but third-party for more beefy tasks. Do we really think that Apple could compete with a GPU like the AMD Radeon Pro Vega II for professionals?

FTA: "There is no indication in support documentation that Apple will discontinue support for AMD GPUs for Intel Macs in future versions of macOS, but the statement above may also suggest that there may yet be an avenue for third-party PCI-E GPU support going forward."

You have to admit though, that the chart is provocative. It could have showed an Apple GPU or a theirs party GPU, but it didn’t.

It is, yes.

rob53

The A12Z Bionic is up to 8 GPU cores. The Most powerful and expensive GPUs have cores in the thousands. What would it take for Apple to create its own separate 500 core GPU SoC or maybe only a 100 core GPU with the ability to use several of them in a blade setup. There's nothing stopping Apple, other than patents, from making whatever they want to any way they want to. Look at the Mac Pro. It's a fantastic workstation. 

dedgecko

rob53 said:

The A12Z Bionic is up to 8 GPU cores. The Most powerful and expensive GPUs have cores in the thousands. What would it take for Apple to create its own separate 500 core GPU SoC or maybe only a 100 core GPU with the ability to use several of them in a blade setup. There's nothing stopping Apple, other than patents, from making whatever they want to any way they want to. Look at the Mac Pro. It's a fantastic workstation. 

Exactly. Look at their Afterburner Card. That’s a freaking monster, right there!

Sidtech

JinTech said:

Or you could read it as that this is what the Apple Silicon processor is directly compatible with. It doesn't say they will not support third-party. I could see Apple using their own GPU for primary tasks but third-party for more beefy tasks. Do we really think that Apple could compete with a GPU like the AMD Radeon Pro Vega II for professionals?

Well this is Apple we are talking about, one whose ego knows no bounds. After all Apple did convince themselves that real pros as they are would be perfectly content with the abysmal disaster that was their butterfly keyboard(s) or how they made a bet in 2013 with the trash can Mac Pro with GPU options. 

It would seem that, excluding the Mac Pro, in the future  all their Macs would come equipped with integrated graphics on Apple Silicon SOC. While not a bad thing at all, as devices like the XBox and PS4 are perfect functional examples of SOCs working fine, these comehcome equipped with fast GDDR6 memory, and  my question is howohow Apple handles fast bandwidth memory on their Macs

keithw

I'm finding it extraordinary difficult to believe that Apple could replace the existing Xeon-based Mac Pro (or even iMac Pro) with comparable performance & expandability in only two years.  Low end, no problem at all. 

prismatics

dedgecko said:

rob53 said:

The A12Z Bionic is up to 8 GPU cores. The Most powerful and expensive GPUs have cores in the thousands. What would it take for Apple to create its own separate 500 core GPU SoC or maybe only a 100 core GPU with the ability to use several of them in a blade setup. There's nothing stopping Apple, other than patents, from making whatever they want to any way they want to. Look at the Mac Pro. It's a fantastic workstation. 

Exactly. Look at their Afterburner Card. That’s a freaking monster, right there!

Afterburner is not a GPU. It is an off-the-shelf FPGA with different strengths of which vertex calculations is none.
Well if Apple wants to reinvent the 3D world, why just they don’t ask the countless game development studios.

jonahlee

If they come up with some new port it instead of PCI it will likely only mean Apple cards work with it, and it will mean the expansion is a joke. And while an Apple GPU might be decent, it is not going to compete with AMD and NVIDIA mainly because of driver support, because of the smaller market share unless Apple can magically beat the GPU giants at their own game without making something super hot and without a huge power draw, that is also so much easier to program for.

The chart scares me certainly, and makes me think the new MacPro was a bit of a bait and switch, because they were obviously working on Apple SIlicon at the same time they were working on the MacPro.

I am hoping that sooner than later Apple has a another talk where they go into the pro end and how it will or will not be supported in the future. but in all likelyhood we just have to wait 2 years till Apple has made their full move to Apple silicon, and see what their high end actually is.

Beats

I say go ahead. I'm confident Apple can leap ahead of the industry.

Sidtech said:

JinTech said:

Or you could read it as that this is what the Apple Silicon processor is directly compatible with. It doesn't say they will not support third-party. I could see Apple using their own GPU for primary tasks but third-party for more beefy tasks. Do we really think that Apple could compete with a GPU like the AMD Radeon Pro Vega II for professionals?

Well this is Apple we are talking about, one whose ego knows no bounds. After all Apple did convince themselves that real pros as they are would be perfectly content with the abysmal disaster that was their butterfly keyboard(s) or how they made a bet in 2013 with the trash can Mac Pro with GPU options. 

It would seem that, excluding the Mac Pro, in the future  all their Macs would come equipped with integrated graphics on Apple Silicon SOC. While not a bad thing at all, as devices like the XBox and PS4 are perfect functional examples of SOCs working fine, these comehcome equipped with fast GDDR6 memory, and  my question is howohow Apple handles fast bandwidth memory on their Macs

1-post troll not sure if you'll ever return but:
Apple did good. You guys read too many tech-biased articles and it becomes part of your knowledge then you flood the internet with your ignorance and convince yourself to be intelligent. The same trolls who call iPhone a "failure" if it only sells 2% of the worlds population.

"they are would be perfectly content with the abysmal disaster that was their butterfly keyboard(s) "

Discontinued. Move on.

"Trash can Mac" a cheap shot to ignore how brilliant a device is. Same as "toilet paper" Homepod, "giant iPod" iPad, and "chocolate bar" phone of the past. You eat up the SHIT these tech writers feed you and regurgitate it onto the public while thinking you're superior.

Get lost.

therunningvm

keithw said:

I'm finding it extraordinary difficult to believe that Apple could replace the existing Xeon-based Mac Pro (or even iMac Pro) with comparable performance & expandability in only two years.  Low end, no problem at all. 

There are workstation chips for ARM, as well as ARM servers that support standard PCIE hardware.

Beats

jonahlee said:

If they come up with some new port it instead of PCI it will likely only mean Apple cards work with it, and it will mean the expansion is a joke. And while an Apple GPU might be decent, it is not going to compete with AMD and NVIDIA mainly because of driver support, because of the smaller market share unless Apple can magically beat the GPU giants at their own game without making something super hot and without a huge power draw, that is also so much easier to program for.

Oh goody this again. Happens every time.

"Apple is not going to beat out market leaders."

canukstorm

JinTech said:

Or you could read it as that this is what the Apple Silicon processor is directly compatible with. It doesn't say they will not support third-party. I could see Apple using their own GPU for primary tasks but third-party for more beefy tasks. Do we really think that Apple could compete with a GPU like the AMD Radeon Pro Vega II for professionals?

That chart is explicit.  I take it at face value that Apple Silicon Macs will not support 3rd party GPU's.  Anything otherwise is an assumption.

jonahlee

Beats said:

jonahlee said:

If they come up with some new port it instead of PCI it will likely only mean Apple cards work with it, and it will mean the expansion is a joke. And while an Apple GPU might be decent, it is not going to compete with AMD and NVIDIA mainly because of driver support, because of the smaller market share unless Apple can magically beat the GPU giants at their own game without making something super hot and without a huge power draw, that is also so much easier to program for.

Oh goody this again. Happens every time.

"Apple is not going to beat out market leaders."

Instead of just trolling the posters, how about comment on the substance. So you think Apple can beat high end GPU's from NVIDIA and AMD? What makes you think so? I would love for it to happen. Seems to me that supporting 3rd party graphics at least in the short term would be smart as Apple works to make some of it's own GPU hardware, but the chart does not make that seem likely.