If you want access to apples high-quality platform which they maintain the quality which is something I as an Apple customer I’m very happy for them to do. I don’t want a platform full of spy ware and substandard products. I also feel if publishers don’t want to be on Apple platform that’s their choice I would imagine a costly choice but that’s their choice all the same.In the same way they should pay the 30% share for all of the distribution capabilities it’s a level playing field that all companies larger small pay... they chose to spend all the money building out the infrastructure they didn’t need to Apple provided it for them that’s what the 30% was for now they’re just getting greedy. One could argue Apple are greedy but I disagree then made to the market in the first place.
I agree with him. Apple is a middleman to Epic's software. This is why I fully support Epic in creating their own game console so they can sell Forknife directly to customers the way Nintendo does on their Switch.
I thinks it just about the money. Clearly this was premeditated. He formulated a route and programmed it into the game to by pass Apple and google play stores. Anticipated a lawsuit knowing what he was doing violated there ToS and then had a parody video in place, knowing the likely hood of them yanking fort nite over his TOS violation was close to 100%.
He also has been outspoken for over 3 years about this. Why did he wait til now to pull this? Why not do it in 2017? Or 2018? Or 2019?
There was already a pushback with the App Store so they decided to pile on. It was a solid strategic move for someone who lacks ethics (just like trying to define the post office, causing strategic delays, and removing mail boxes from cities so a sitting president can steal another election).
Notice it's only the multi-billionaire dollar companies complaining?
Also notice the "coincidence" of Microsoft doing similar crap KNOWING the rules.
Yeah, where’s the conspiracy investigation over Microsoft, Epic and Facebook all whining about Apple within days of each other?
I’ve heard of price fixing, but what do you call this? Whine-fixing?
Seems oddly timed, especially considering BOTH Microsoft and Epic knew the rules and BOT of them are in bed with each other.
App Store is a platform that Apple built, i don't care about your stupid game, i want my Apps to be strictly curated and I want Apple to make some money off it. If a customer disagrees with the policy and gets angry about it, then don't buy and iPhone, it's that simple.
That's fine but did you know Apple would be the middleman to everything, and that they would decide what you could download or not?
More importantly, was that made clear to you at purchase?
You may find that Apple being a middleman isn't a problem here. The root problem is on a deeper level and eventually, I don't think things will work out to Apple's liking.
Apple isn't the middleman. Apple is Apple and it's Apple's Store than they fu**ing INVENTED.
I agree with him. Apple is a middleman to Epic's software. This is why I fully support Epic in creating their own game console so they can sell Forknife directly to customers the way Nintendo does on their Switch.
I thinks it just about the money. Clearly this was premeditated. He formulated a route and programmed it into the game to by pass Apple and google play stores. Anticipated a lawsuit knowing what he was doing violated there ToS and then had a parody video in place, knowing the likely hood of them yanking fort nite over his TOS violation was close to 100%.
He also has been outspoken for over 3 years about this. Why did he wait til now to pull this? Why not do it in 2017? Or 2018? Or 2019?
There was already a pushback with the App Store so they decided to pile on. It was a solid strategic move for someone who lacks ethics (just like trying to define the post office, causing strategic delays, and removing mail boxes from cities so a sitting president can steal another election).
Notice it's only the multi-billionaire dollar companies complaining?
Also notice the "coincidence" of Microsoft doing similar crap KNOWING the rules.
MS didn't do anything wrong. They followed and respected Apple rules while running xCloud on TestFlight, and took the app down without issues. Maybe they thought of the possibility of Apple relaxing or changing some rules after seeing the positive reviews and experience of xCloud. Since it didn't happened, in the announcement they posted the reasons on why xCloud wasn't going to be available in iOS and iPadOS, and it was because Apple.
This is very different compared to what Epic is doing. Personally I prefer what MS did, tell customers the reason cloud gaming is not available in Apple mobile devices (in this case, because Apple restricting rules for cloud gaming) and let the market decide. At the end, Apple customers are missing great gaming experiences because of their rules. This is an example on how the Apple walled garden is not always for the benefit of the users / customers.
The timing buddy the timing. Microsoft is not some $2,000 startup unaware of Apple's terms. They KNEW what they did broke the rules and the COMPLAINED like Epic did.
Both Epic and Microsoft are bed buddies jealous of Apple's success. And one of them has failed mobile platforms that Apple dominated.
Actually, Epic, Apple is twcficing FREEDOM. You are the one trying to demolish it.
Apple is free to create a budd at unless s as Nd run it in a way that keeps them in business. Just like you and anyone else.
And middlemen as you call them, are worth their wages. So pay up.
Amazon charges, retail stores charge. If you want the sales and the customer base to sell to, that’s how it’s done. Apple isn’t giving you free re t in their servers, free security, free customer leads, free advertising, free bandwidth and reliability, etc.
Microsoft may have an argument we it’s game streaming.
It epic has zero ground to stand on with trying to cut the middle mans fees while still requiring the middle man to be there.
Apple has designed a store that not only allows developers a great place to sell their wares, but also protects customers from malicious software and crappy code.
Rules are great. It’s what keeps the App Store a place where you can EXPECT great things. Or at least good things. Back in the day before iPhone, you never knew what you’d have forced upon your device. Who was vetting it? And the entire thing was a mixed bag. Antivirus, internet security, etc. etc. we’re the rule of the day because you HAD to. The software on the internet was like a third world market. Wheeling and dealing and ... no thank you. Give me a fair product at a fair price that does what I’m told it does and no more.
Apple store over that riddle. Customers LOVE them for it. It’s part of the reason they are the number one company on the planet.
So when some turd wants to come in and try to break all that down just so he can drag us down to a place where he can do whatever he wants, he needs to be boycotted. Apple AND Google have booted the deadbeat.
Epic Games makes the best games engine there is. Unreal is some seriously impressive code. But if the business news model around it is going to rely on not playing fair with their partners and then complaining when the consequences hit them, you have to wonder how long the CEO will be there. Or, I f the board stands with him, how long the company will be ok.
Epic, no one agrees with you. No one wants you to break a great system. Stop this.
Apple is just a middleman? Ok so why not just cut them out and build a quality world class mobile device, a paired operating system that is optimized for the hardware, supporting add-on services, a dev toolkit to make software, and a distribution platform with infrastructure, all of which requires teams to support it 24/7 to make sure it meets their high availability standards.
All that just so your customers can play a game that’s hard to play on a mobile device which is much better suited to consoles, laptops, desktops, and maybe tablets, just to squeeze more out of them through the pay to win model.
Maybe someone has tried this? Anyway, I have some great outfits to the game. But I think it is unfair that Epic should earn anything from my super-innovative and artistic work. I shall sue Epic for forcing me to contribute to the game by being V-bucks in their game store.
I would imagine that there are a lot of Lawyers wishing that they'd be able to grill to a cinder the Epic CEO when he takes the stand. The word hyprocrite come to mind when I read what he says.
If I want to publish a book on Amazon then I have a choice. That is to take 30% and let them market it around the world (amazon takes 70%) or take 70% (the author gets 30%) and let them do even less than Apple does on the app store.
If that isn't a screwing the authors then I don't know what is and that is even before you look at their terms for exclusivity. Can I put the same title on Smashwords? or even Apple Books? In some cases I can't even have it on my own blog even under a different name.
I eagerly await the Antitrust investigation into Amazon Books. I might be waiting a long time.
"At the most basic level, we're fighting for the freedom of people who bought smartphones to install apps from sources of their choosing, the freedom for creators of apps to distribute them as they choose, and the freedom of both groups to do business directly," Sweeney said in a tweet.
The word "basic" and the word "freedom" are in there, but he doesn't say what the headline days.
Why do statements like this always come out of the subset of the entertainment industry most heavily reliant on depriving kids of pocket money?
artists without the talent to put together more than 3 minutes of music were the last major group to whine about steaming stealing their creative freedom. It never ends disposable fashion creators designed to be disposed and replaced often are always up in arms trying to make the product less shallow than it is.
I know I’ll regret this but it is hard to imagine how much more shallow a product you can get than dance moves to mock the digital dead.
EA Access (which is now EA Play) is a subscription service that offers early access to newer full price games that you still have to purchase (so Sony and MS still get a 30% cut on those) as well as a "vault" of older EA games that you can play for free. If you want to play games online, obviously you're going to need to purchase that capability from Sony and Microsoft as well. So it's not really a store like xCloud and it's not really a way for EA to avoid paying a cut.
My post was about the comparison of Apple devices as "app consoles" and gaming consoles. If that was the case, then Apple should not have any problem allowing 3rd party stores.
About your post about fees, I think Apple should get what they deserve, considering it's their app store. At the same time, developers, big and small, have valid points about Apple App Store fees and other restrictions, for example with cloud gaming. Maybe Epic suing Apple and Google was to drastic, but that's what we have today.
"Most if not all of the complaints Epic makes against Apple and Google seem to apply to Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo in the console space as well. All three console makers also take a 30-percent cut of all microtransaction sales on their platforms, for example.
On mobile platforms, Epic is calling the same kind of 30-percent fee "exorbitant" and says it wants to offer a more direct payment solution so it can "pass along the savings to players." On consoles, though, Epic happily introduced a permanent 20-percent discount on all microtransaction purchases, despite there being no sign that the console makers have changed their fee structure.
"Bingo. This is exactly the point I’ve been trying to make since the Xbox Game Pass controversy last week. Microsoft wants Apple to allow on iOS something they themselves will not allow on Xbox.
If you think Epic is right in principle about iOS and Android, then they ought to be making the same argument about Xbox, PlayStation, and Switch. A computer is a computer. “Consoles” are a business model and user experience design choice, and the iPhone and iPad are effectively app consoles, where games are just one type of app. It’s a shame (in more ways than this) that Apple TV isn’t a bigger player, because it’s just another variant of iOS.
But instead of fighting the game consoles, Epic is taking more of a hit: Fortnite players on Xbox, PlayStation, and Switch get the 20 percent reduction in price while Epic still pays the 30 percent cut of each transaction to the platform vendor. It’s a stunt, pure and simple."
Tim Sweeney's response to to a similar question back in June,
"Consoles are unique in that the hardware is sold at or below the cost of manufacturing, and is subsidized by software sales, whereas iOS and Android are insanely profitable for Apple and Google from just hardware sales and ads."
Rationalization at work, but stinks like shit.
I read the article, and I agree that there are similarities in consoles App stores fees and mobile devices App stores. But there are differences too when you see the whole picture. For example, developers and customers are not forced to use the App Store. You can go to any retail store or developer website to purchase games. Maybe the App Store is better, but the option still there for customers or developers that don't want to use the App Store. Another example is that consoles stores allows 3rd party stores, like EA Access / EA Play.
If we follow Gruber line that mobile devices are "apps consoles", and are similar to gaming consoles app stores, can we expect Apple and Google to sell apps in retail stores and allow 3rd party stores as MS and Sony do?
I don't think the way Epic is doing things with the lawsuit is the right thing, but is what we have. Apple has the right to charge 30% /15% in their App Store they built and have the rules they want (considering they don't break the law). But developers may have some valid points that Apple should hear. That feedback could make a better App Store for everyone, specially customers.
I agree with him. Apple is a middleman to Epic's software. This is why I fully support Epic in creating their own game console so they can sell Forknife directly to customers the way Nintendo does on their Switch.
I thinks it just about the money. Clearly this was premeditated. He formulated a route and programmed it into the game to by pass Apple and google play stores. Anticipated a lawsuit knowing what he was doing violated there ToS and then had a parody video in place, knowing the likely hood of them yanking fort nite over his TOS violation was close to 100%.
He also has been outspoken for over 3 years about this. Why did he wait til now to pull this? Why not do it in 2017? Or 2018? Or 2019?
There was already a pushback with the App Store so they decided to pile on. It was a solid strategic move for someone who lacks ethics (just like trying to define the post office, causing strategic delays, and removing mail boxes from cities so a sitting president can steal another election).
Notice it's only the multi-billionaire dollar companies complaining?
Also notice the "coincidence" of Microsoft doing similar crap KNOWING the rules.
MS didn't do anything wrong. They followed and respected Apple rules while running xCloud on TestFlight, and took the app down without issues. Maybe they thought of the possibility of Apple relaxing or changing some rules after seeing the positive reviews and experience of xCloud. Since it didn't happened, in the announcement they posted the reasons on why xCloud wasn't going to be available in iOS and iPadOS, and it was because Apple.
This is very different compared to what Epic is doing. Personally I prefer what MS did, tell customers the reason cloud gaming is not available in Apple mobile devices (in this case, because Apple restricting rules for cloud gaming) and let the market decide. At the end, Apple customers are missing great gaming experiences because of their rules. This is an example on how the Apple walled garden is not always for the benefit of the users / customers.
The timing buddy the timing. Microsoft is not some $2,000 startup unaware of Apple's terms. They KNEW what they did broke the rules and the COMPLAINED like Epic did.
How MS broke App Store rules when it was never released outside of TestFlight? They gave Apple the opportunity to see an excellent gaming service for Apple customers. Apple decided not to change or adapt their rules for cloud gaming, and MS stopped developing for it. Different from Epic lawsuit, they respect Apple (nonsense) rules, and released a statement explaining why Apple was the reason we would not see xCloud in iOS / iPadOS devices. IMO, this is far better than what are we seeing with Epic.
Both Epic and Microsoft are bed buddies jealous of Apple's success. And one of them has failed mobile platforms that Apple dominated.
If that's the case, I could say that Apple is jealous of MS success in gaming, and they are blocking xCloud so people are forced to us Apple Arcade, right?
App Store is a platform that Apple built, i don't care about your stupid game, i want my Apps to be strictly curated and I want Apple to make some money off it. If a customer disagrees with the policy and gets angry about it, then don't buy and iPhone, it's that simple.
That's fine but did you know Apple would be the middleman to everything, and that they would decide what you could download or not?
More importantly, was that made clear to you at purchase?
You may find that Apple being a middleman isn't a problem here. The root problem is on a deeper level and eventually, I don't think things will work out to Apple's liking.
Apple isn't the middleman. Apple is Apple and it's Apple's Store than they fu**ing INVENTED.
Apple is very much the middleman. You can't develop for iOS device deployment without going through Apple. Apple decides what can (and can't) be present on the App Store and doesn't allow for third party stores. Apple also takes a cut of transactions.
EPIC FAILURE! As someone who's purchased software directly from a creator's website, who also sells its software in the App Store (think Affinity, Skylum (Luminar, Aurora HDR, etc), and many others, this is total BS. Grandstanding to create conflict in order to draw attention to themselves, Epic has shown what hypocrites they truly are. The obvious timing with the dinosaurs in Congress who wouldn't know a CPU from an STD, and think a Joystick is something they have between their legs, heat up a battle with the biggest tech giants because they have nothing more pressing (like the pandemic, the resulting destruction to our economy and the list goes on & on)! What to do……personally, I deleted all Epic products from my many Apple Devices. Regardless of what they do to try to lure me back, it'll never happen. Epic - R.I.P.
EA Access (which is now EA Play) is a subscription service that offers early access to newer full price games that you still have to purchase (so Sony and MS still get a 30% cut on those) as well as a "vault" of older EA games that you can play for free. If you want to play games online, obviously you're going to need to purchase that capability from Sony and Microsoft as well. So it's not really a store like xCloud and it's not really a way for EA to avoid paying a cut.
Bingo.
Also, on the App Store, apps can have in-app purchases, plus there are "pages" for companies (so you can see everything Microsoft sells in one place, for example).
Tim Sweeney's response to to a similar question back in June,
"Consoles are unique in that the hardware is sold at or below the cost of manufacturing, and is subsidized by software sales, whereas iOS and Android are insanely profitable for Apple and Google from just hardware sales and ads."
Rationalization at work, but stinks like shit.
Ha, that is funny, not least of which because -- Nintendo.
But also, check out the $329 price tag on the cheapest iPad and $399 price of the cheapest iPhone and compare that to the price tag of the cheapest Mac. Would the entry-level price for iDevices be that low if there wasn't the 30% commission in the App Store? I guess we can't know for sure, but my guess is that those devices get that low price because Apple expects to make money elsewhere in the ecosystem.
Apple should create another app store, which allows for side loading.
Apple should NOT do this as the second they do so software developers will start making LESS money. Why? Because people too cheap to pay a couple of bucks for an app will start side loading cracked versions just like on Android.
avon b7 said: Apple is very much the middleman. You can't develop for iOS device deployment without going through Apple. Apple decides what can (and can't) be present on the App Store and doesn't allow for third party stores. Apple also takes a cut of transactions.
Apple is a middleman in every sense of the word.
It's disingenuous to use the term "middleman" with the App Store because Apple designed the hardware, the SoC, the OS, the developer tools etc. that are required to run the apps being sold. They're obviously supplying much more than just a store location to the companies that develop the apps. For example, updates to the hardware and the OS can enable functions/features that weren't previously available or feasible to developers and can result in new sales opportunities. Apple isn't just passively selling apps for a platform beyond their control.
avon b7 said: Apple is very much the middleman. You can't develop for iOS device deployment without going through Apple. Apple decides what can (and can't) be present on the App Store and doesn't allow for third party stores. Apple also takes a cut of transactions.
Apple is a middleman in every sense of the word.
It's disingenuous to use the term "middleman" with the App Store because Apple designed the hardware, the SoC, the OS, the developer tools etc. that are required to run the apps being sold. They're obviously supplying much more than just a store location to the companies that develop the apps. For example, updates to the hardware and the OS can enable functions/features that weren't previously available or feasible to developers and can result in new sales opportunities. Apple isn't just passively selling apps for a platform beyond their control.
Since Apple creates the platform and tools which developers freely use to create software and since Apple creates the devices that developer can piggy back on sell their wares, it's the 3rd-party developers clearly in the middle.
I wouldn't call them a middle man in the traditional sense, but Apple clearly isn't. The definition of middle man in the Oxford English Dictionary is:
mid·dle·man | ˈmidlˌman | noun (plural middlemen) a person who buys goods from producers and sells them to retailers or consumers
Apple isn't buying the any software to resell to customers. They're not even setting a price. It would be like be calling a shopping mall the middle man for having a nice, one-stop shopping location for a large variety of sellers to to sell their wares.
It’s a really good story until you get to the part that Epic only had side loading of Fortnite on Android in the early days to avoid paying Google. The problem was, not many users wanted to side load so Epic relented and placed the App on the Play Store. Then, even though there are multiple app stores on Android, Epic software is available in only one - the official Google Play Store.
So much for consumer choice. What Epic want is their own Epic Store on iOS without paying any fees to Apple.
As an Apple customer, I don’t want my experience to be like Android...which is the sole reason I bought into the Apple ecosystem.
Comments
Seems oddly timed, especially considering BOTH Microsoft and Epic knew the rules and BOT of them are in bed with each other.
Apple isn't the middleman. Apple is Apple and it's Apple's Store than they fu**ing INVENTED.
The timing buddy the timing. Microsoft is not some $2,000 startup unaware of Apple's terms. They KNEW what they did broke the rules and the COMPLAINED like Epic did.
Both Epic and Microsoft are bed buddies jealous of Apple's success. And one of them has failed mobile platforms that Apple dominated.
Microsoft may have an argument we it’s game streaming.
All that just so your customers can play a game that’s hard to play on a mobile device which is much better suited to consoles, laptops, desktops, and maybe tablets, just to squeeze more out of them through the pay to win model.
30% begins to sound not so bad.
artists without the talent to put together more than 3 minutes of music were the last major group to whine about steaming stealing their creative freedom. It never ends disposable fashion creators designed to be disposed and replaced often are always up in arms trying to make the product less shallow than it is.
If we follow Gruber line that mobile devices are "apps consoles", and are similar to gaming consoles app stores, can we expect Apple and Google to sell apps in retail stores and allow 3rd party stores as MS and Sony do?
I don't think the way Epic is doing things with the lawsuit is the right thing, but is what we have. Apple has the right to charge 30% /15% in their App Store they built and have the rules they want (considering they don't break the law). But developers may have some valid points that Apple should hear. That feedback could make a better App Store for everyone, specially customers.
If that's the case, I could say that Apple is jealous of MS success in gaming, and they are blocking xCloud so people are forced to us Apple Arcade, right?
Apple is a middleman in every sense of the word.
Also, on the App Store, apps can have in-app purchases, plus there are "pages" for companies (so you can see everything Microsoft sells in one place, for example).
But also, check out the $329 price tag on the cheapest iPad and $399 price of the cheapest iPhone and compare that to the price tag of the cheapest Mac. Would the entry-level price for iDevices be that low if there wasn't the 30% commission in the App Store? I guess we can't know for sure, but my guess is that those devices get that low price because Apple expects to make money elsewhere in the ecosystem.
I wouldn't call them a middle man in the traditional sense, but Apple clearly isn't. The definition of middle man in the Oxford English Dictionary is:
Apple isn't buying the any software to resell to customers. They're not even setting a price. It would be like be calling a shopping mall the middle man for having a nice, one-stop shopping location for a large variety of sellers to to sell their wares.
So much for consumer choice. What Epic want is their own Epic Store on iOS without paying any fees to Apple.
As an Apple customer, I don’t want my experience to be like Android...which is the sole reason I bought into the Apple ecosystem.