Apple's 'Fortnite' takedown will cause incalculable harm to users, says Epic

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  • Reply 81 of 86
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,266member
    danvm said:
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    Beats said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    Beats said:
    I carefully read the article for a change.

    I gathered,
    Epic wants to bypass Apple fees 100% but want to set up a shop on Apple products and reap 100% profit.
    Epic is complaining that Apple has a monopoly on Apple products.


    It may be an Apple product, but it's not owned by Apple, it's owned by the user.  Epic should be free to "setup shop" on any device the owner of the device wants and Epic should not have to pay the manufacturer of the device a fee for the "privilege" of doing so.

    Did you carefully read the article?  I think not.  It literally says "That power emboldened it to design restrictions to create and maintain monopolies in app distribution and in-app payment processing."  Monopoly of distribution and payment processing, NOT Apple products.   So, you gathered wrong.  Apple does have a 100% monopoly on distribution and payment processing.  No lies there.  Is it legal?  I think that is what this is about.



    Nope Apple owns the iPhone and iPad.

    Same as Netflix owns Netflix and Wal Mart owns Wal Mart. I can't just walk into Wal Mart and demand they paint the walls a different color and demand an organic juice bar and demand they carry my product like a crappy flea market.

    "Epic should be free to "setup shop" on any device the owner of the device wants and Epic should not have to pay the manufacturer of the device a fee for the "privilege" of doing so."

    Cool. Now go criticize Nintendo, Microsoft, Netflix, Wal Mart, Amazon. I always find it funny how Apple is always shi* on for things 99% of the industry practice.
    You're making no sense.  Walmart doesn't own the TV that I purchased from them and walked out the store with.  They can't tell me what I can and cannot watch on MY TV once I purchase it.  Netflix?  I guess if Netflix sold a Netflix device and a service and locked the user of the device into only using Netflix then maybe we could talk similarities, but as it is, Netflix is not similar in this case.

    The other companies you listed?  How are they like Apple?  Walmart and Amazon do not force buyer or sellers to have to sell at Amazon or Walmart.  My TV example above proves once I've purchased the TV, I can do whatever I want to do with it, not what Amazon or Walmart tells me I can do with it.


    You are truly lost. 

    Walmart has every right to not sell the TV brand that you might want to buy. If Walmart don;t want to sell Samsung TV's because Samsung is not willing to drop their wholesale price to the point where Walmart can make a certain precent profit from each retail sale, then Walmart has every right not to sell Samsung TV's in their stores. And Samsung has no right what so ever, to set up a shop inside a Walmart to sell their own TV's, to people like you that might want to own a Samsung TV. If Samsung want to sell TV's in a Walmart, they have to deal with Walmart. Walmart has full control what brand TV's are sold in their stores. They have a monopoly there. The same monopoly MS has with their X-Box, Sony has with their PlayStation and Apple has with their iDevices. No one is going to accuse Walmart of abusing the monopoly they have in what is sold in their stores, if they refuse to sell Samsung TV's or refuse to allow Samsung to set up their own shop inside a Walmart.  

    And you are completely wrong about you being able to watch anything you want with your TV, once you buy it. You can only watch what the TV allows you to watch. You can not install your own app in the Smart TV menu or anyone else's, that has not been approved by your TV maker. If your TV didn't come with the Amazon Prime app, then you can't watch what's on Amazon Prime, no matter how much you think you can watch whatever you want, because its YOUR TV. And unless the TV maker allow Amazon Prime in their TV, all your crying about how the TV has a monopoly on what apps can be installed, is not going to get you to watch anything you want. If you want to watch Amazon Prime, then you have to buy a TV with Amazon Prime app pre-installed or hope that in the future, your TV maker will update their apps to include Amazon Prime. Or you can install an external TV box and use your TV just as a monitor, to watch what your external TV box allows you to watch. 

    If you bought a PC, can you install a Mac OS X program? Why not? You bought it. It's YOUR computer and you should be able to install and run what program you want ... right? Same with buying an X-Box. Why can't you play your PlayStation disc on it? Why can't you buy games only on Nintendo, from the MS Store in your X-box? It YOUR X-Box and you should be able to play what games you want on it. See how your illogical thinking work? It doesn't.  
    I think you cannot compare gaming consoles to iOS / iPadOS devices since consoles don't force customers and developers to use the digital store.  They can go to a retailer to purchase or sell their boxed games.  iOS / iPadOS devices are forced to use the apps store, for better or worse.  
    They can. The manufacturers and distributors still have to pay Sony/Microsoft between 30 and 50 percent of the title price.
    I know that manufactures and distributors have to pay Sony, MS and Nintendo.  In this case, I'm talking about customers and developers, and they have options to purchase and distribute their games outside the digital App Store.  The same can't be said for Apple mobile devices.  IMO, that's the reason I think you cannot compare Apple mobile devices with consoles.  
    You're missing the point. It isn't just the retail costs. 

    Joe Rando can't pop up, and start selling Xbox or Playstation games on pressed DVDs. Regardless of where the games are bought, Microsoft and Sony still gatekeep the marketplaces.
    I read back, and noticed that I misunderstood the original post.  I know that physical games requires MS, Sony and Nintendo approval, same as digital games.  I was just pointing out that console developers and customers are not forced to sell or purchase digital games.  But that wasn't the point of the post.  
  • Reply 82 of 86
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    Beats said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    Beats said:
    I carefully read the article for a change.

    I gathered,
    Epic wants to bypass Apple fees 100% but want to set up a shop on Apple products and reap 100% profit.
    Epic is complaining that Apple has a monopoly on Apple products.


    It may be an Apple product, but it's not owned by Apple, it's owned by the user.  Epic should be free to "setup shop" on any device the owner of the device wants and Epic should not have to pay the manufacturer of the device a fee for the "privilege" of doing so.

    Did you carefully read the article?  I think not.  It literally says "That power emboldened it to design restrictions to create and maintain monopolies in app distribution and in-app payment processing."  Monopoly of distribution and payment processing, NOT Apple products.   So, you gathered wrong.  Apple does have a 100% monopoly on distribution and payment processing.  No lies there.  Is it legal?  I think that is what this is about.



    Nope Apple owns the iPhone and iPad.

    Same as Netflix owns Netflix and Wal Mart owns Wal Mart. I can't just walk into Wal Mart and demand they paint the walls a different color and demand an organic juice bar and demand they carry my product like a crappy flea market.

    "Epic should be free to "setup shop" on any device the owner of the device wants and Epic should not have to pay the manufacturer of the device a fee for the "privilege" of doing so."

    Cool. Now go criticize Nintendo, Microsoft, Netflix, Wal Mart, Amazon. I always find it funny how Apple is always shi* on for things 99% of the industry practice.
    You're making no sense.  Walmart doesn't own the TV that I purchased from them and walked out the store with.  They can't tell me what I can and cannot watch on MY TV once I purchase it.  Netflix?  I guess if Netflix sold a Netflix device and a service and locked the user of the device into only using Netflix then maybe we could talk similarities, but as it is, Netflix is not similar in this case.

    The other companies you listed?  How are they like Apple?  Walmart and Amazon do not force buyer or sellers to have to sell at Amazon or Walmart.  My TV example above proves once I've purchased the TV, I can do whatever I want to do with it, not what Amazon or Walmart tells me I can do with it.


    You are truly lost. 

    Walmart has every right to not sell the TV brand that you might want to buy. If Walmart don;t want to sell Samsung TV's because Samsung is not willing to drop their wholesale price to the point where Walmart can make a certain precent profit from each retail sale, then Walmart has every right not to sell Samsung TV's in their stores. And Samsung has no right what so ever, to set up a shop inside a Walmart to sell their own TV's, to people like you that might want to own a Samsung TV. If Samsung want to sell TV's in a Walmart, they have to deal with Walmart. Walmart has full control what brand TV's are sold in their stores. They have a monopoly there. The same monopoly MS has with their X-Box, Sony has with their PlayStation and Apple has with their iDevices. No one is going to accuse Walmart of abusing the monopoly they have in what is sold in their stores, if they refuse to sell Samsung TV's or refuse to allow Samsung to set up their own shop inside a Walmart.  

    And you are completely wrong about you being able to watch anything you want with your TV, once you buy it. You can only watch what the TV allows you to watch. You can not install your own app in the Smart TV menu or anyone else's, that has not been approved by your TV maker. If your TV didn't come with the Amazon Prime app, then you can't watch what's on Amazon Prime, no matter how much you think you can watch whatever you want, because its YOUR TV. And unless the TV maker allow Amazon Prime in their TV, all your crying about how the TV has a monopoly on what apps can be installed, is not going to get you to watch anything you want. If you want to watch Amazon Prime, then you have to buy a TV with Amazon Prime app pre-installed or hope that in the future, your TV maker will update their apps to include Amazon Prime. Or you can install an external TV box and use your TV just as a monitor, to watch what your external TV box allows you to watch. 

    If you bought a PC, can you install a Mac OS X program? Why not? You bought it. It's YOUR computer and you should be able to install and run what program you want ... right? Same with buying an X-Box. Why can't you play your PlayStation disc on it? Why can't you buy games only on Nintendo, from the MS Store in your X-box? It YOUR X-Box and you should be able to play what games you want on it. See how your illogical thinking work? It doesn't.  
    I think you cannot compare gaming consoles to iOS / iPadOS devices since consoles don't force customers and developers to use the digital store.  They can go to a retailer to purchase or sell their boxed games.  iOS / iPadOS devices are forced to use the apps store, for better or worse.  

    You still pay them. You think if you buy a boxed Switch game you bypass Nintendo's licensing fees?
    qwerty52
  • Reply 83 of 86
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    qwerty52 said:
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    Beats said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    Beats said:
    I carefully read the article for a change.

    I gathered,
    Epic wants to bypass Apple fees 100% but want to set up a shop on Apple products and reap 100% profit.
    Epic is complaining that Apple has a monopoly on Apple products.


    It may be an Apple product, but it's not owned by Apple, it's owned by the user.  Epic should be free to "setup shop" on any device the owner of the device wants and Epic should not have to pay the manufacturer of the device a fee for the "privilege" of doing so.

    Did you carefully read the article?  I think not.  It literally says "That power emboldened it to design restrictions to create and maintain monopolies in app distribution and in-app payment processing."  Monopoly of distribution and payment processing, NOT Apple products.   So, you gathered wrong.  Apple does have a 100% monopoly on distribution and payment processing.  No lies there.  Is it legal?  I think that is what this is about.



    Nope Apple owns the iPhone and iPad.

    Same as Netflix owns Netflix and Wal Mart owns Wal Mart. I can't just walk into Wal Mart and demand they paint the walls a different color and demand an organic juice bar and demand they carry my product like a crappy flea market.

    "Epic should be free to "setup shop" on any device the owner of the device wants and Epic should not have to pay the manufacturer of the device a fee for the "privilege" of doing so."

    Cool. Now go criticize Nintendo, Microsoft, Netflix, Wal Mart, Amazon. I always find it funny how Apple is always shi* on for things 99% of the industry practice.
    You're making no sense.  Walmart doesn't own the TV that I purchased from them and walked out the store with.  They can't tell me what I can and cannot watch on MY TV once I purchase it.  Netflix?  I guess if Netflix sold a Netflix device and a service and locked the user of the device into only using Netflix then maybe we could talk similarities, but as it is, Netflix is not similar in this case.

    The other companies you listed?  How are they like Apple?  Walmart and Amazon do not force buyer or sellers to have to sell at Amazon or Walmart.  My TV example above proves once I've purchased the TV, I can do whatever I want to do with it, not what Amazon or Walmart tells me I can do with it.


    You are truly lost. 

    Walmart has every right to not sell the TV brand that you might want to buy. If Walmart don;t want to sell Samsung TV's because Samsung is not willing to drop their wholesale price to the point where Walmart can make a certain precent profit from each retail sale, then Walmart has every right not to sell Samsung TV's in their stores. And Samsung has no right what so ever, to set up a shop inside a Walmart to sell their own TV's, to people like you that might want to own a Samsung TV. If Samsung want to sell TV's in a Walmart, they have to deal with Walmart. Walmart has full control what brand TV's are sold in their stores. They have a monopoly there. The same monopoly MS has with their X-Box, Sony has with their PlayStation and Apple has with their iDevices. No one is going to accuse Walmart of abusing the monopoly they have in what is sold in their stores, if they refuse to sell Samsung TV's or refuse to allow Samsung to set up their own shop inside a Walmart.  

    And you are completely wrong about you being able to watch anything you want with your TV, once you buy it. You can only watch what the TV allows you to watch. You can not install your own app in the Smart TV menu or anyone else's, that has not been approved by your TV maker. If your TV didn't come with the Amazon Prime app, then you can't watch what's on Amazon Prime, no matter how much you think you can watch whatever you want, because its YOUR TV. And unless the TV maker allow Amazon Prime in their TV, all your crying about how the TV has a monopoly on what apps can be installed, is not going to get you to watch anything you want. If you want to watch Amazon Prime, then you have to buy a TV with Amazon Prime app pre-installed or hope that in the future, your TV maker will update their apps to include Amazon Prime. Or you can install an external TV box and use your TV just as a monitor, to watch what your external TV box allows you to watch. 

    If you bought a PC, can you install a Mac OS X program? Why not? You bought it. It's YOUR computer and you should be able to install and run what program you want ... right? Same with buying an X-Box. Why can't you play your PlayStation disc on it? Why can't you buy games only on Nintendo, from the MS Store in your X-box? It YOUR X-Box and you should be able to play what games you want on it. See how your illogical thinking work? It doesn't.  
    I think you cannot compare gaming consoles to iOS / iPadOS devices since consoles don't force customers and developers to use the digital store.  They can go to a retailer to purchase or sell their boxed games.  iOS / iPadOS devices are forced to use the apps store, for better or worse.  

    You really don’t get it. Yes, you can compare, and you have to, if you want to understand the situation.
    You can’t purchase the game you want, by the retailer you want, if the retailer of your choice doesn’t not want to sell you the game you want, because the developer of the game you want, refuse to pay any commission to the retailer of your choice.
    So in this example Apple/iOS/AppStore is the retailer who doesn’t want to sell you  the game you want, because the developer of game you want, refuse to pay any commission.


    Also you can't put a Playstation game into an Xbox and expect it to play.
    qwerty52
  • Reply 84 of 86
    I'm confused.  Zero is entirely calculable.
  • Reply 85 of 86
    carnegiecarnegie Posts: 1,016member
    Apple is making counterclaims for damages against Epic Games. That seems appropriate to me.

    https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.364265/gov.uscourts.cand.364265.66.0.pdf
  • Reply 86 of 86
    DetnatorDetnator Posts: 287member
    ITGUYINSD said:
    Beats said:
    I carefully read the article for a change.

    I gathered,
    Epic wants to bypass Apple fees 100% but want to set up a shop on Apple products and reap 100% profit.
    Epic is complaining that Apple has a monopoly on Apple products.


    It may be an Apple product, but it's not owned by Apple, it's owned by the user.  Epic should be free to "setup shop" on any device the owner of the device wants and Epic should not have to pay the manufacturer of the device a fee for the "privilege" of doing so.

    Did you carefully read the article?  I think not.  It literally says "That power emboldened it to design restrictions to create and maintain monopolies in app distribution and in-app payment processing."  Monopoly of distribution and payment processing, NOT Apple products.   So, you gathered wrong.  Apple does have a 100% monopoly on distribution and payment processing.  No lies there.  Is it legal?  I think that is what this is about.


    A number of flaws in your argument there. They almost all revolve around your misunderstanding of what is “the product”. 

    For one... So “it’s not owned by Apple it’s owned by the user”...? 

    Ok. I buy an iPhone. You’re saying it’s mine? It’s ALL mine? The operating system on it (iOS) is mine? All the technology and IP in the chips and the software is mine?

    Wrong. My iPhone is not (all) mine.

    Unless you want to buy an iPhone that doesn’t include any of Apple’s (or others’) IP in it then you can say that’s yours if you want but without any of that IP in it I’m not sure it’s an iPhone any more...?

    But ok. If you want to say Epic can set up shop on YOUR device then perhaps Apple should let them do so, but if Apple does let them do so they’d be perfectly within their rights to ensure that none of it worked with iOS or their Ax chips or anything else that Apple OWNS. Let’s see how that works out for ya. 

    Here’s another thing to consider.  If it’s entirely yours after you buy it, and you can do whatever you want with it then why should Apple be responsible if anything goes wrong. So say goodbye to all your support and warranty. I mean sure, it’s yours. Do whatever you want with it. Open it up and rearrange the chips — or open up the software ( evasive they gave you the source code because it’s all yours now) and rearrange how that all works. But don’t expect Apple to honor the warranty or provide you any technical guidance to get it working again if you do.

    My next sentence was going to say “An iPhone — and all Apple’s devices — is not a pair of shoes you walk out with and own all of it at that point.” But now I have to take a step back on that too. You own the shoes and can wear them but you don’t own the design or manufacturing process or anything else that went into creating them. But this analogy only goes so far.

    Your iPhone is partly yours but mostly what you’ve bought is a license to use all the IP in it (that is Apple’s and others’) according to conditions (license agreement etc.) you agree to when you turn it on and set it up. If you don’t agree to those conditions then you can’t continue the setup process and your only alternative is keep it in it’s bricked state or return it. 

    Apple doesn’t have a monopoly on “app distribution and payment processing.”  Apple has absolutely no say in app distribution and payment processing on devices or in ecosystems it hasn’t created or doesn’t own - eg. Android.   Sure it has a monopoly on “app distribution and payment processing” in its own marketplace that it owns. So does Walmart (in its own marketplace — its stores).  

    The “product” is the device AND all the IP, AND also your ability to involve yourself in the entire ecosystem including the App Store and the distribution and payment process within that ecosystem. It’s entirely a market Apple created with Apple IP, technologies, and products, and Apple has every right to manage, restrict, or whatever else, all of that, as it sees fit — just as Toyota has every right to do whatever it sees fit with its “monopoly” on Toyotas and Lexuses (but not all cars - only it’s own). 
    edited October 2020
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