Apple says potential EU Apple Pay rules threaten security, stifle innovation

Posted:
in General Discussion edited September 2020
Apple said potential legislation that would force it to open up Apple Pay technology to third parties threatens security and innovation.

Credit: Apple
Credit: Apple


The European Union is currently weighing new rules that would compel Apple to open up the contactless payment systems at the heart of Apple Pay. In a statement on Thursday, Apple said the new rules weren't a good idea.

"We believe legislation that dictates a company's technical approach to hardware and software security will ultimately put customers at risk and stifle innovation," an Apple spokesperson told Bloomberg.

Additionally, the spokesperson said that Apple plans to work with the European Commission to "help them understand the benefits of Apple."

The Cupertino tech giant currently limits access to the near-field communication (NFC) chip within the iPhone and Apple Watch. It argues that a closed system is better for security when handling sensitive bank information.

In 2019, the EU began asking payment companies in Europe about Apple Pay as part of an antitrust investigation. The European Commission formally launched an antitrust probe scrutinizing Apple Pay in June.

This isn't the first time that Apple's NFC restrictions have come under antitrust scrutiny.

In 2015, a coalition of major Australian banks sought to boycott Apple Pay in an attempt to negotiate third-party access to the NFC hardware within Apple devices. The banks eventually backed down after the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission denied their boycott request in 2017.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 35
    Apple, at some point you are going to have to take a revenue hit and dump problematic regions from certain services to set an example.
    frantisekmcdavewilliamlondonrazorpitDetnatorolswatto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 2 of 35
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,169member
    I think it's Apple that doesn't understand at least part of the problem.

    And as things stand, nothing has been approved or formalised.

    The EU stance is clear. Apple shouldn't have any issue with it and it has zero to do with stifling innovation (and innovation cannot come before competition rules anyway).

    Apple has to offer something to reflect its own stance but this statement is very poor.

    If, the EU decides that Apple is restricting competition (and that's a big if) its options are clear and simple. 
    gc_ukmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 3 of 35
    silvergold84silvergold84 Posts: 107unconfirmed, member
    We buy Apple products also for specific characteristics. Privacy, innovation and quality are very important. iOS isn’t an open source, it is a property of Apple inc. and we love it! No open to third part service also about Nfc mobile payments. 
    ArloTimetravelerrazorpitolswatto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 4 of 35
    avon b7 said:
    I think it's Apple that doesn't understand at least part of the problem.

    And as things stand, nothing has been approved or formalised.

    The EU stance is clear. Apple shouldn't have any issue with it and it has zero to do with stifling innovation (and innovation cannot come before competition rules anyway).

    Apple has to offer something to reflect its own stance but this statement is very poor.

    If, the EU decides that Apple is restricting competition (and that's a big if) its options are clear and simple. 

    Absolute unacceptable any of banking mafia got access to my transaction again and any info now protected by Apple Pay. If they get access then will never offer same privacy. Never ever.
    ArloTimetravelerRayz2016williamlondonrazorpitjdb8167olswatto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 5 of 35
    Not surprised by this. The EU bureaucracy and it’s supporters are rapidly anti-American and don’t like free competition or free-trade: its a protectionist trade block by definition.

    I’m amazed there are still Americans that wonder why we Brits choose to escape the EUs creeping authoritarianism...
    williamlondonrazorpitwatto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 35
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 5,949member
    avon b7 said:
    I think it's Apple that doesn't understand at least part of the problem.

    And as things stand, nothing has been approved or formalised.

    The EU stance is clear. Apple shouldn't have any issue with it and it has zero to do with stifling innovation (and innovation cannot come before competition rules anyway).

    Apple has to offer something to reflect its own stance but this statement is very poor.

    If, the EU decides that Apple is restricting competition (and that's a big if) its options are clear and simple. 
    Funny that you think Apple doesn't "get it".  I think they do, and ignorance is on your side.

    For decades, the banking industry has gotten away with selling my user data, or better yet, having data breaches that placed my financial life at risk.  ApplePay resolves that.  F**k them.

    Banks don't like that Apple controls the final length to the customer.  The ONLY reason for this is so the banks can get out of using ApplePay and use their own version that denies me the ability to use ApplePay.  Oh, I want to use my iPhone with my Bank of America credit card?  They no longer work with with ApplePay.  You have to use their app, but... "consumer choice"!! That's their only reason.   They will deny me the ability to use ApplePay so they can continue harvesting my data.

     They are hiding their true agenda under the veil of "consumer choice" bullshit, and people like you just lap it up.  If you think your "choice" is threatened, go to Android and don't look back.  It's the wild-west so why you're expecting Apple to be like Android is beyond me.  We all enjoy Apple's locked-down approach.  They sell an all-in-one widget.  Competition is plenty from other players.  

    You keep spinning that "consumer choice" narrative.
    edited September 2020 ericthehalfbeemike1Rayz2016uraharawilliamlondonrazorpitjdb8167igorskyroundaboutnowtobybeagle
  • Reply 7 of 35
    iqatedoiqatedo Posts: 1,740member
    Apple, at some point you are going to have to take a revenue hit and dump problematic regions from certain services to set an example.
    The whole of the EU? This legislation is a wedge in the door, other regions will follow quickly if successful in Europe. A concern is banks then dropping support for Apple Pay in favour of their own solutions. I'll drop my bank before I drop Apple Pay.
    edited September 2020 harrykatsarosapplguyuraharaDetnatorolswatto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 8 of 35
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,908member
    avon b7 said:
    I think it's Apple that doesn't understand at least part of the problem.

    And as things stand, nothing has been approved or formalised.

    The EU stance is clear. Apple shouldn't have any issue with it and it has zero to do with stifling innovation (and innovation cannot come before competition rules anyway).

    Apple has to offer something to reflect its own stance but this statement is very poor.

    If, the EU decides that Apple is restricting competition (and that's a big if) its options are clear and simple. 
    How can you “restrict competition” in a platform that was never opened up to it?  Apple’s claim is upheld as its innovations have demonstrably focussed on quality by restricting quantity of options.

    Competitive practices allege better quality/price but rarely deliver it, or any other user benefit, instead they send markets racing to the bottom in terms of both, resulting in a de facto confidence trick. Funny there’s little legal enforcement for that, almost as if choice buys impunity.
    williamlondonjdb8167roundaboutnowolswatto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 9 of 35
    sflocal said:
    avon b7 said:
    I think it's Apple that doesn't understand at least part of the problem.

    And as things stand, nothing has been approved or formalised.

    The EU stance is clear. Apple shouldn't have any issue with it and it has zero to do with stifling innovation (and innovation cannot come before competition rules anyway).

    Apple has to offer something to reflect its own stance but this statement is very poor.

    If, the EU decides that Apple is restricting competition (and that's a big if) its options are clear and simple. 
    Funny that you think Apple doesn't "get it".  I think they do, and ignorance is on your side.

    For decades, the banking industry has gotten away with selling my user data, or better yet, having data breaches that placed my financial life at risk.  ApplePay resolves that.  F**k them.

    Banks don't like that Apple controls the final length to the customer.  The ONLY reason for this is so the banks can get out of using ApplePay and use their own version that denies me the ability to use ApplePay.  Oh, I want to use my iPhone with my Bank of America credit card?  They no longer work with with ApplePay.  You have to use their app, but... "consumer choice"!! That's their only reason.   They will deny me the ability to use ApplePay so they can continue harvesting my data.

     They are hiding their true agenda under the veil of "consumer choice" bullshit, and people like you just lap it up.  If you think your "choice" is threatened, go to Android and don't look back.  It's the wild-west so why you're expecting Apple to be like Android is beyond me.  We all enjoy Apple's locked-down approach.  They sell an all-in-one widget.  Competition is plenty from other players.  

    You keep spinning that "consumer choice" narrative.

    Your bank still knows your transactions (obviously) since they're the ones who have to convert the substitute PAN in your iPhone into your actual card number so they know who to charge. When I get my bank statement all the items I buy with Apple Pay (which is about 95% of my purchases) all show up with the correct store and date/time.

    The people who don't get to track your purchases are the merchants and payment processors, since they get a fake PAN from your iPhone and a confirmation it's valid from the bank without knowing who you are or what your actual card number is. So Apple removes several possible ways your data gets mined, but the bank still knows what you purchased.

    This is one big reason why stores like Walmart don't want Apple Pay because they get a lot of data from tracking peoples purchases based on card number.
    I have a feeling the banks want access not because they can get extra data, but probably because they have deals with payment processors and merchants and doing this gives them back the ability to track purchases.
    CloudTalkintmayuraharawilliamlondonrazorpitjdb8167roundaboutnowwatto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 35
    chasmchasm Posts: 2,467member
    seanj said:
    Not surprised by this. The EU bureaucracy and it’s supporters are rapidly anti-American and don’t like free competition or free-trade: its a protectionist trade block by definition.

    I’m amazed there are still Americans that wonder why we Brits choose to escape the EUs creeping authoritarianism...
    No, I totally get the "creeping authoritarianism" thing and agree that continues to be an issue.

    But the UK has decided, in effect, to replace one group of creeping authoritarians with another, very much less competent version.
    tmayRayz2016muthuk_vanalingamavon b7urahararoundaboutnowolswatto_cobracommand_fjony0
  • Reply 11 of 35
    Apple, at some point you are going to have to take a revenue hit and dump problematic regions from certain services to set an example.
    Finally - I hear someone singing my song! You make me happy. I presume you are saying that Apple should restrict Apple Pay from being used anywhere in Europe. That's a half measure. A fuller measure might be to stop selling all services in Europe: iCloud storage, News+, Music, Fitness+, Apple Pay, etc. Sure that would hurt Apple for a while but it wouldn't take long before the EU would elect new governments that would stop knifing Apple in the back and Apple would then return to the EU. And the stability would help Apple in the long run.
  • Reply 12 of 35
    sflocal said:
    avon b7 said:
    I think it's Apple that doesn't understand at least part of the problem.

    And as things stand, nothing has been approved or formalised.

    The EU stance is clear. Apple shouldn't have any issue with it and it has zero to do with stifling innovation (and innovation cannot come before competition rules anyway).

    Apple has to offer something to reflect its own stance but this statement is very poor.

    If, the EU decides that Apple is restricting competition (and that's a big if) its options are clear and simple. 
    Funny that you think Apple doesn't "get it".  I think they do, and ignorance is on your side.

    For decades, the banking industry has gotten away with selling my user data, or better yet, having data breaches that placed my financial life at risk.  ApplePay resolves that.  F**k them.

    Banks don't like that Apple controls the final length to the customer.  The ONLY reason for this is so the banks can get out of using ApplePay and use their own version that denies me the ability to use ApplePay.  Oh, I want to use my iPhone with my Bank of America credit card?  They no longer work with with ApplePay.  You have to use their app, but... "consumer choice"!! That's their only reason.   They will deny me the ability to use ApplePay so they can continue harvesting my data.

     They are hiding their true agenda under the veil of "consumer choice" bullshit, and people like you just lap it up.  If you think your "choice" is threatened, go to Android and don't look back.  It's the wild-west so why you're expecting Apple to be like Android is beyond me.  We all enjoy Apple's locked-down approach.  They sell an all-in-one widget.  Competition is plenty from other players.  

    You keep spinning that "consumer choice" narrative.
    So much wrong.  Banks still get away with monetizing your data.  Not sure what gave you the impression they didn't.  Apple Pay doesn't resolve that in any way at all.  So, it's not really the F them you want it to be.  Apple doesn't control the final length to the customer. The banks still do.  If your bank has a data breach and your info is compromised, there's nothing Apple can do to mitigate your potential risk.  Again, not sure what gave you the impression they could.  If you lack this much knowledge about how your finances work, I worry for you a li'l bit.   

    Part of your problem is the binary way you present your position.  This isn't an either or proposition.  Afaik, the request for access to NFC has never been about replacing Apple Pay.  It's been about being able to offer options in addition to Apple Pay.  You wouldn't have to stop using Apple Pay.  If that's your process of choice, use it to your hearts content.  Hypothetically someone else may want to use their bank's processing because they get rewards or points or some other incentive.  In that scenario, you aren't affected at all.  Neither is anyone else.  Having a choice is not a bad thing.  
    gc_ukmuthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondon
  • Reply 13 of 35
    I trust banks with my money. Indeed, I don't trust anyone but banks. I also trust credit card companies. But within one HOUR of Apple Card becoming available in my country I will switch over to them, and I will consider, as a thank you, converting all of my bank accounts to whatever bank is carrying my Apple Card. I'm not a millionaire, (actually, I don't know what my house is valued at, so maybe I am) but over the course of my life it will be a huge loss to the banks that have spent decades not giving me the services that I wanted. Apple gets my desire for privacy, but banks and credit card companies don't. In fact I can't think of any other company on this planet apart from Apple that cares about my privacy. This is why Apple is a two trillion dollar company and nobody else is. And until some company, maybe Google, maybe Disney, (certainly not Facebook or Amazon) takes this page out of Apple's playbook, you can expect Apple to become a three or four trillion dollar company. 
    edited September 2020 jdb8167watto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 35
    gc_ukgc_uk Posts: 110member
    frantisek said:
    avon b7 said:
    I think it's Apple that doesn't understand at least part of the problem.

    And as things stand, nothing has been approved or formalised.

    The EU stance is clear. Apple shouldn't have any issue with it and it has zero to do with stifling innovation (and innovation cannot come before competition rules anyway).

    Apple has to offer something to reflect its own stance but this statement is very poor.

    If, the EU decides that Apple is restricting competition (and that's a big if) its options are clear and simple. 

    Absolute unacceptable any of banking mafia got access to my transaction again and any info now protected by Apple Pay. If they get access then will never offer same privacy. Never ever.
    Great, you use Apple Pay and other people can use the payment processor of their choosing. You’re all for freedom of choice aren’t you?
  • Reply 15 of 35
    gc_ukgc_uk Posts: 110member
    Is this the same as Apple fighting against not including power adaptors when it’s not necessary?

    It would be obvious that Apple’s own code calls a defined API. Why is it such a big deal to open up the API to other vendors?
  • Reply 16 of 35
    gc_uk said:
    It would be obvious that Apple’s own code calls a defined API. Why is it such a big deal to open up the API to other vendors?
    You want us to revert now to an unprotected OS where any app can call any OS function? We've already had this in the 1980s, it was called DOS. I loved DOS at the time, but now we have new features called "security" and "privacy" which requires protected OS functions. DOS is gone forever.
    Rayz2016razorpitjdb8167watto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 35
    I trust banks with my money. Indeed, I don't trust anyone but banks. I also trust credit card companies. But within one HOUR of Apple Card becoming available in my country I will switch over to them, and I will consider, as a thank you, converting all of my bank accounts to whatever bank is carrying my Apple Card. I'm not a millionaire, (actually, I don't know what my house is valued at, so maybe I am) but over the course of my life it will be a huge loss to the banks that have spent decades not giving me the services that I wanted. Apple gets my desire for privacy, but banks and credit card companies don't. In fact I can't think of any other company on this planet apart from Apple that cares about my privacy. This is why Apple is a two trillion dollar company and nobody else is. And until some company, maybe Google, maybe Disney, (certainly not Facebook or Amazon) takes this page out of Apple's playbook, you can expect Apple to become a three or four trillion dollar company. 
    Not sure if you're aware or not, but this has nothing to do with the Apple Card.  This is about Apple Pay and access to NFC.
    gc_uk said:
    It would be obvious that Apple’s own code calls a defined API. Why is it such a big deal to open up the API to other vendors?
    You want us to revert now to an unprotected OS where any app can call any OS function? We've already had this in the 1980s, it was called DOS. I loved DOS at the time, but now we have new features called "security" and "privacy" which requires protected OS functions. DOS is gone forever.
    My man, that has nothing to do with an open OS either.  You don't seem to know what's going on at all.
    edited September 2020 muthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondon
  • Reply 18 of 35

    sflocal said:
    avon b7 said:
    I think it's Apple that doesn't understand at least part of the problem.

    And as things stand, nothing has been approved or formalised.

    The EU stance is clear. Apple shouldn't have any issue with it and it has zero to do with stifling innovation (and innovation cannot come before competition rules anyway).

    Apple has to offer something to reflect its own stance but this statement is very poor.

    If, the EU decides that Apple is restricting competition (and that's a big if) its options are clear and simple. 
    Funny that you think Apple doesn't "get it".  I think they do, and ignorance is on your side.

    For decades, the banking industry has gotten away with selling my user data, or better yet, having data breaches that placed my financial life at risk.  ApplePay resolves that.  F**k them.

    Banks don't like that Apple controls the final length to the customer.  The ONLY reason for this is so the banks can get out of using ApplePay and use their own version that denies me the ability to use ApplePay.  Oh, I want to use my iPhone with my Bank of America credit card?  They no longer work with with ApplePay.  You have to use their app, but... "consumer choice"!! That's their only reason.   They will deny me the ability to use ApplePay so they can continue harvesting my data.

     They are hiding their true agenda under the veil of "consumer choice" bullshit, and people like you just lap it up.  If you think your "choice" is threatened, go to Android and don't look back.  It's the wild-west so why you're expecting Apple to be like Android is beyond me.  We all enjoy Apple's locked-down approach.  They sell an all-in-one widget.  Competition is plenty from other players.  

    You keep spinning that "consumer choice" narrative.
    So much wrong.  Banks still get away with monetizing your data.  Not sure what gave you the impression they didn't.  Apple Pay doesn't resolve that in any way at all.  So, it's not really the F them you want it to be.  Apple doesn't control the final length to the customer. The banks still do.  If your bank has a data breach and your info is compromised, there's nothing Apple can do to mitigate your potential risk.  Again, not sure what gave you the impression they could.  If you lack this much knowledge about how your finances work, I worry for you a li'l bit.   

    Part of your problem is the binary way you present your position.  This isn't an either or proposition.  Afaik, the request for access to NFC has never been about replacing Apple Pay.  It's been about being able to offer options in addition to Apple Pay.  You wouldn't have to stop using Apple Pay.  If that's your process of choice, use it to your hearts content.  Hypothetically someone else may want to use their bank's processing because they get rewards or points or some other incentive.  In that scenario, you aren't affected at all.  Neither is anyone else.  Having a choice is not a bad thing.  
    Your first paragraph is excellent. Your second paragraph, while mostly right, has a small flaw, because it omits the vital fact that the NFC support is NOT provided by iOS but by code running on the Secure Enclave. Read this: https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/security/seccb53a35f0/1/web/1 This is a special piece of hardware outside of (and inaccessible to) the running OS that provides access to the NFC hardware. For all we know, there isn't even enough physical room on that chip for new code from every new bank that wants their own "Pay" system. Should Apple be required to add more space to that chip to allow every second bank in the world to add its own code to that chip's firmware? I don't think so. I must admit that I don't fully understand how this Secure Enclave works, so there's probably someone who can educate me here. But the real point I'm making is that the security of a device like the iPhone requires the involvement of hardware design and everyone in the world wants a free ride by adding their own code to Apple's Secure Enclave hardware. There's no way on earth that anyone should be allowed to force Apple to redesign their hardware so that their software can get a free ride. If I'm wrong, tell me why.
    tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 19 of 35

    sflocal said:
    avon b7 said:
    I think it's Apple that doesn't understand at least part of the problem.

    And as things stand, nothing has been approved or formalised.

    The EU stance is clear. Apple shouldn't have any issue with it and it has zero to do with stifling innovation (and innovation cannot come before competition rules anyway).

    Apple has to offer something to reflect its own stance but this statement is very poor.

    If, the EU decides that Apple is restricting competition (and that's a big if) its options are clear and simple. 
    Funny that you think Apple doesn't "get it".  I think they do, and ignorance is on your side.

    For decades, the banking industry has gotten away with selling my user data, or better yet, having data breaches that placed my financial life at risk.  ApplePay resolves that.  F**k them.

    Banks don't like that Apple controls the final length to the customer.  The ONLY reason for this is so the banks can get out of using ApplePay and use their own version that denies me the ability to use ApplePay.  Oh, I want to use my iPhone with my Bank of America credit card?  They no longer work with with ApplePay.  You have to use their app, but... "consumer choice"!! That's their only reason.   They will deny me the ability to use ApplePay so they can continue harvesting my data.

     They are hiding their true agenda under the veil of "consumer choice" bullshit, and people like you just lap it up.  If you think your "choice" is threatened, go to Android and don't look back.  It's the wild-west so why you're expecting Apple to be like Android is beyond me.  We all enjoy Apple's locked-down approach.  They sell an all-in-one widget.  Competition is plenty from other players.  

    You keep spinning that "consumer choice" narrative.
    So much wrong.  Banks still get away with monetizing your data.  Not sure what gave you the impression they didn't.  Apple Pay doesn't resolve that in any way at all.  So, it's not really the F them you want it to be.  Apple doesn't control the final length to the customer. The banks still do.  If your bank has a data breach and your info is compromised, there's nothing Apple can do to mitigate your potential risk.  Again, not sure what gave you the impression they could.  If you lack this much knowledge about how your finances work, I worry for you a li'l bit.   

    Part of your problem is the binary way you present your position.  This isn't an either or proposition.  Afaik, the request for access to NFC has never been about replacing Apple Pay.  It's been about being able to offer options in addition to Apple Pay.  You wouldn't have to stop using Apple Pay.  If that's your process of choice, use it to your hearts content.  Hypothetically someone else may want to use their bank's processing because they get rewards or points or some other incentive.  In that scenario, you aren't affected at all.  Neither is anyone else.  Having a choice is not a bad thing.  
    Your first paragraph is excellent. Your second paragraph, while mostly right, has a small flaw, because it omits the vital fact that the NFC support is NOT provided by iOS but by code running on the Secure Enclave. Read this: https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/security/seccb53a35f0/1/web/1 This is a special piece of hardware outside of (and inaccessible to) the running OS that provides access to the NFC hardware. For all we know, there isn't even enough physical room on that chip for new code from every new bank that wants their own "Pay" system. Should Apple be required to add more space to that chip to allow every second bank in the world to add its own code to that chip's firmware? I don't think so. I must admit that I don't fully understand how this Secure Enclave works, so there's probably someone who can educate me here. But the real point I'm making is that the security of a device like the iPhone requires the involvement of hardware design and everyone in the world wants a free ride by adding their own code to Apple's Secure Enclave hardware. There's no way on earth that anyone should be allowed to force Apple to redesign their hardware so that their software can get a free ride. If I'm wrong, tell me why.
    Jeebus, Margaret, and Jesse.  Please, for the love of all things tech, stop, stop, stop, just no.  You're literally just making stuff up.  Silly stuff.  Every assumption you've made about NFC, the Secure Enclave, and this gem: "For all we know, there isn't even enough physical room on that chip for new code from every new bank that wants their own "Pay" system. "  I can't even.  Suffice it to say, that's not how any of this works.  I need a drink after reading that.
    muthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondon
  • Reply 20 of 35

    sflocal said:
    avon b7 said:
    I think it's Apple that doesn't understand at least part of the problem.

    And as things stand, nothing has been approved or formalised.

    The EU stance is clear. Apple shouldn't have any issue with it and it has zero to do with stifling innovation (and innovation cannot come before competition rules anyway).

    Apple has to offer something to reflect its own stance but this statement is very poor.

    If, the EU decides that Apple is restricting competition (and that's a big if) its options are clear and simple. 
    Funny that you think Apple doesn't "get it".  I think they do, and ignorance is on your side.

    For decades, the banking industry has gotten away with selling my user data, or better yet, having data breaches that placed my financial life at risk.  ApplePay resolves that.  F**k them.

    Banks don't like that Apple controls the final length to the customer.  The ONLY reason for this is so the banks can get out of using ApplePay and use their own version that denies me the ability to use ApplePay.  Oh, I want to use my iPhone with my Bank of America credit card?  They no longer work with with ApplePay.  You have to use their app, but... "consumer choice"!! That's their only reason.   They will deny me the ability to use ApplePay so they can continue harvesting my data.

     They are hiding their true agenda under the veil of "consumer choice" bullshit, and people like you just lap it up.  If you think your "choice" is threatened, go to Android and don't look back.  It's the wild-west so why you're expecting Apple to be like Android is beyond me.  We all enjoy Apple's locked-down approach.  They sell an all-in-one widget.  Competition is plenty from other players.  

    You keep spinning that "consumer choice" narrative.
    So much wrong.  Banks still get away with monetizing your data.  Not sure what gave you the impression they didn't.  Apple Pay doesn't resolve that in any way at all.  So, it's not really the F them you want it to be.  Apple doesn't control the final length to the customer. The banks still do.  If your bank has a data breach and your info is compromised, there's nothing Apple can do to mitigate your potential risk.  Again, not sure what gave you the impression they could.  If you lack this much knowledge about how your finances work, I worry for you a li'l bit.   

    Part of your problem is the binary way you present your position.  This isn't an either or proposition.  Afaik, the request for access to NFC has never been about replacing Apple Pay.  It's been about being able to offer options in addition to Apple Pay.  You wouldn't have to stop using Apple Pay.  If that's your process of choice, use it to your hearts content.  Hypothetically someone else may want to use their bank's processing because they get rewards or points or some other incentive.  In that scenario, you aren't affected at all.  Neither is anyone else.  Having a choice is not a bad thing.  
    Your first paragraph is excellent. Your second paragraph, while mostly right, has a small flaw, because it omits the vital fact that the NFC support is NOT provided by iOS but by code running on the Secure Enclave. Read this: https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/security/seccb53a35f0/1/web/1 This is a special piece of hardware outside of (and inaccessible to) the running OS that provides access to the NFC hardware. For all we know, there isn't even enough physical room on that chip for new code from every new bank that wants their own "Pay" system. Should Apple be required to add more space to that chip to allow every second bank in the world to add its own code to that chip's firmware? I don't think so. I must admit that I don't fully understand how this Secure Enclave works, so there's probably someone who can educate me here. But the real point I'm making is that the security of a device like the iPhone requires the involvement of hardware design and everyone in the world wants a free ride by adding their own code to Apple's Secure Enclave hardware. There's no way on earth that anyone should be allowed to force Apple to redesign their hardware so that their software can get a free ride. If I'm wrong, tell me why.
    Jeebus, Margaret, and Jesse.  Please, for the love of all things tech, stop, stop, stop, just no.  You're literally just making stuff up.  Silly stuff.  Every assumption you've made about NFC, the Secure Enclave, and this gem: "For all we know, there isn't even enough physical room on that chip for new code from every new bank that wants their own "Pay" system. "  I can't even.  Suffice it to say, that's not how any of this works.  I need a drink after reading that.
    If I'm wrong I want to know why. Unfortunately you contributed nothing because you gave no explanation at all. You said everything I said was wrong. How does that help? Say something useful or say nothing at all.
    muthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondonjdb8167watto_cobra
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