Huawei debuts Mate X2 folding phone, starting at eye-popping $2,785

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 76
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    ....

    Why not just wait and see? 
    I'd rather not.
    I'd rather that we eliminate the sanctions that are forcing this to happen -- and that not only undermining a major U.S. corporation but forcing Huawei to become an Apple competitor with their own chips and OS in their own hardware. 

    There is nothing positive for the U.S. economy in this.  And no evidence based reason for it.

    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 22 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,084member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    viclauyycwatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 76
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,691member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 24 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,084member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.
    edited February 22 watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 76
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,703member
    Huawei requires you to go to Huawei.com, make an account, and then sign up to be a developer by passing "Identity verification." This means sending Huawei your name, address, email, phone number, and pictures of your ID (driver's license or passport) and a photo of a credit card. You must then wait one or two business days while someone at Huawei manually "reviews" your application.

    … and passes your information straight on to the authorities.  
    tmaychiaviclauyycwatto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 76
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,691member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.
    I didn't bring GPU Turbo into the discussion. I simply corrected the usual FUD that some people throw around. You will have noted that that person had nothing to offer as a counter argument, and neither do you.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 27 of 76
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,691member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Huawei requires you to go to Huawei.com, make an account, and then sign up to be a developer by passing "Identity verification." This means sending Huawei your name, address, email, phone number, and pictures of your ID (driver's license or passport) and a photo of a credit card. You must then wait one or two business days while someone at Huawei manually "reviews" your application.

    … and passes your information straight on to the authorities.  
    Huawei says it is the only company that has this level of security within its App Store. This was actually touted as one of the tentpole features of App Gallery. 

    For its users, this is important as developers can be personally held liable in case of illegal activity.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the practice is picked up by other stores down the line. 

    The process is entirely voluntary and your data is not passed onto the authorities. The authorities are the least of a developer's (or anyone's) problems. Wherever you travel abroad your ID is with the authorities. There are MANY situations where your ID is absolutely required by private enterprise. You won't get far in opening a bank account nowadays if you don't provide ID. The problems with ID arise when it falls into the hands of criminals.

    https://developer.huawei.com/consumer/en/doc/help/identityverfication-0000001053292680
    edited February 23 GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 28 of 76
    Rayz2016 said:
    Huawei requires you to go to Huawei.com, make an account, and then sign up to be a developer by passing "Identity verification." This means sending Huawei your name, address, email, phone number, and pictures of your ID (driver's license or passport) and a photo of a credit card. You must then wait one or two business days while someone at Huawei manually "reviews" your application.

    … and passes your information straight on to the authorities.  

    If you believe the head of conspiracy theories....
    viclauyyc
  • Reply 29 of 76
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




  • Reply 30 of 76
    Imagine, it weight 295 g (10.41 oz). It is less them my colleague no name Android brick that was I guess 308g.  That is not bad. Anyway heavy for long one hand usage I am afraid.
  • Reply 31 of 76
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,691member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    edited February 23 GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 32 of 76
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,703member
    avon b7 said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Huawei requires you to go to Huawei.com, make an account, and then sign up to be a developer by passing "Identity verification." This means sending Huawei your name, address, email, phone number, and pictures of your ID (driver's license or passport) and a photo of a credit card. You must then wait one or two business days while someone at Huawei manually "reviews" your application.

    … and passes your information straight on to the authorities.  
    Huawei says it is the only company that has this level of security within its App Store. This was actually touted as one of the tentpole features of App Gallery. 

    For its users, this is important as developers can be personally held liable in case of illegal activity.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the practice is picked up by other stores down the line. 

    The process is entirely voluntary and your data is not passed onto the authorities. The authorities are the least of a developer's (or anyone's) problems. Wherever you travel abroad your ID is with the authorities. There are MANY situations where your ID is absolutely required by private enterprise. You won't get far in opening a bank account nowadays if you don't provide ID. The problems with ID arise when it falls into the hands of criminals.

    https://developer.huawei.com/consumer/en/doc/help/identityverfication-0000001053292680
    Yeah there’s a big difference between handing over your passport details to open a bank account and handing it over to download beta software, especially when that software is just a badly-skinned download of Android. 

    Still, credit to the journalist for doing it. That’s dedication. 
    edited February 24 tmaychiawatto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 76
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,691member
    Rayz2016 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Huawei requires you to go to Huawei.com, make an account, and then sign up to be a developer by passing "Identity verification." This means sending Huawei your name, address, email, phone number, and pictures of your ID (driver's license or passport) and a photo of a credit card. You must then wait one or two business days while someone at Huawei manually "reviews" your application.

    … and passes your information straight on to the authorities.  
    Huawei says it is the only company that has this level of security within its App Store. This was actually touted as one of the tentpole features of App Gallery. 

    For its users, this is important as developers can be personally held liable in case of illegal activity.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the practice is picked up by other stores down the line. 

    The process is entirely voluntary and your data is not passed onto the authorities. The authorities are the least of a developer's (or anyone's) problems. Wherever you travel abroad your ID is with the authorities. There are MANY situations where your ID is absolutely required by private enterprise. You won't get far in opening a bank account nowadays if you don't provide ID. The problems with ID arise when it falls into the hands of criminals.

    https://developer.huawei.com/consumer/en/doc/help/identityverfication-0000001053292680
    Yeah there’s a big difference between handing over your passport details to open a bank account and handing it over to download beta software, especially when that software is just a badly-skinned download of Android. 

    Still, credit to the journalist for doing it. That’s dedication. 
    Actually, there is no difference whatsoever.

    The only reason you are required to provide verifiable ID to your bank in many countries is as a requirement to protect against fraud and money laundering. 

    Years ago, you could open an account with a just a birth certificate. 

    He wasn't providing the information 'to download 'beta software' either. The step was part of the registration process to join the developer programme and use the Dev Eco Emulator. 

    Huawei requires verifiable ID to protect its App Gallery users from rogue developers attempting all kinds of nefarious actions, including fraud.

    He didn't have to submit his passport either. These are three of the possible combinations:

    1. ID card + bank document

    2. Passport + bank document

    3. Other supporting documents (such as driver's license) + bank document


    It is highly likely that all the major app store providers will adopt similar or the exact same measures at some point in the future.

    The requirement forms part of a four pillar security setup with users in mind.

    https://consumer.huawei.com/en/press/news/2020/how-does-huawei-appgallery-protect-user-privacy-and-security/

    As for the 'badly skinned Android' comment, please do expand with your knowledge on that. Or are you simply regurgitating your own personal takeaway from the ARS article? 



    edited February 24 GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 34 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,084member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    edited February 24 chiawatto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 76
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,691member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    muthuk_vanalingamGeorgeBMac
  • Reply 36 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,084member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 76
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,691member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 38 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,084member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    edited February 24 watto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 76
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 



    It's funny: 
    I never hear anybody complain about the very close and very real ties that Microsoft has to our government its army.
    But somehow heads explode at the mere accusation that a Chinese company might have or might in the future have ties to its government.

    I get that many Americans do not like the idea of China overtaking the U.S. as the world's number 1 economy.   But that is not the way to go about stopping them.  It just makes us look like failures and idiots.
  • Reply 40 of 76
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,691member
    tmay said:
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    GeorgeBMac
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