Huawei debuts Mate X2 folding phone, starting at eye-popping $2,785

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  • Reply 61 of 76
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
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    avon b7 said:
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    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
  • Reply 62 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,083member
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
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    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
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    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
    The Biden Administration considers China a national security risk, and they will work to mitigate that. 

    That's all that matters. You seem unable to comprehend that China is a National Security risk, and that puts in in denial. 

    But again, it matters not what you or I think.
  • Reply 63 of 76
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,272member
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
    The Biden Administration considers China a national security risk, and they will work to mitigate that. 

    That's all that matters. You seem unable to comprehend that China is a National Security risk, and that puts in in denial. 

    But again, it matters not what you or I think.
    He does?   Despite the fact he (correctly) calls them a "competitor"?
    You continue living in Trump's alternate reality.  And, like him, just make stuff up,

    It doesn't even make sense that China would position themselves as a military threat to the U.S.   They need the U.S. to achieve their ultimate goal:   peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations.  

    Trump saw that.  But to him "Competitor" is no different from "enemy".  So he went to his old stand-by "National Security Threat".   And, as usual, the fools bought his con.
  • Reply 64 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,083member
    tmay said:
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    avon b7 said:
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
    The Biden Administration considers China a national security risk, and they will work to mitigate that. 

    That's all that matters. You seem unable to comprehend that China is a National Security risk, and that puts in in denial. 

    But again, it matters not what you or I think.
    He does?   Despite the fact he (correctly) calls them a "competitor"?
    You continue living in Trump's alternate reality.  And, like him, just make stuff up,

    It doesn't even make sense that China would position themselves as a military threat to the U.S.   They need the U.S. to achieve their ultimate goal:   "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations".  

    Trump saw that.  But to him "Competitor" is no different from "enemy".  So he went to his old stand-by "National Security Threat".   And, as usual, the fools bought his con.
     "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations"
    You have been the victim of China's propaganda. 

    You really haven't a clue of what China is about in the world, nor the U.S. responsibility to maintain order, do you?

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2021/02/11/in-the-south-china-sea-its-meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss/

    The Biden Administration is well aware of the threat of China to the world.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-enlists-allies-to-counter-chinas-technology-push-11614524400

    "President Biden portrays U.S. relations with China as a clash of values: democracy vs. autocracy.

    But his rhetoric obscures the administration’s more pragmatic approach of cobbling together groups of countries to work jointly on technology. The goal is to stay ahead of China in semiconductors, artificial intelligence and other advances that are expected to define the economy and military of the future.

    Preliminary conversations with U.S. allies have begun, though the effort is expected to take months, said senior administration officials.

    The strategy has both offensive and defensive components. By combining efforts, the U.S. and its allies can vastly outspend China, whose research-and-development budget now nearly matches the U.S. The alliances can also coordinate policies to deny China the technologies it needs to try to become a global leader".

    edited March 1
  • Reply 65 of 76
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,272member
    tmay said:
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    avon b7 said:
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
    The Biden Administration considers China a national security risk, and they will work to mitigate that. 

    That's all that matters. You seem unable to comprehend that China is a National Security risk, and that puts in in denial. 

    But again, it matters not what you or I think.
    He does?   Despite the fact he (correctly) calls them a "competitor"?
    You continue living in Trump's alternate reality.  And, like him, just make stuff up,

    It doesn't even make sense that China would position themselves as a military threat to the U.S.   They need the U.S. to achieve their ultimate goal:   "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations".  

    Trump saw that.  But to him "Competitor" is no different from "enemy".  So he went to his old stand-by "National Security Threat".   And, as usual, the fools bought his con.
     "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations"
    You have been the victim of China's propaganda. 

    You really haven't a clue of what China is about in the world, nor the U.S. responsibility to maintain order, do you?

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2021/02/11/in-the-south-china-sea-its-meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss/

    The Biden Administration is well aware of the threat of China to the world.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-enlists-allies-to-counter-chinas-technology-push-11614524400

    "President Biden portrays U.S. relations with China as a clash of values: democracy vs. autocracy.

    But his rhetoric obscures the administration’s more pragmatic approach of cobbling together groups of countries to work jointly on technology. The goal is to stay ahead of China in semiconductors, artificial intelligence and other advances that are expected to define the economy and military of the future.

    Preliminary conversations with U.S. allies have begun, though the effort is expected to take months, said senior administration officials.

    The strategy has both offensive and defensive components. By combining efforts, the U.S. and its allies can vastly outspend China, whose research-and-development budget now nearly matches the U.S. The alliances can also coordinate policies to deny China the technologies it needs to try to become a global leader".


    I'm the victim of reality.
    You are an ideologue caught in the web of Chump's con game.

    But, the good news is:  From this post it is good to see you getting away from that ludicrous "National Security" bullshit and admitting what is really going on:   China is advancing enough economically, technically and politically to soon challenge western hegemony.  And, we're scared.

    THAT is reality.
    The question is:  What, if anything, are we going to do about it?
    ... I find it unlikely that smear campaigns built on lies and nationalistic false pride will get us where we would like to be.
  • Reply 66 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,083member
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
    The Biden Administration considers China a national security risk, and they will work to mitigate that. 

    That's all that matters. You seem unable to comprehend that China is a National Security risk, and that puts in in denial. 

    But again, it matters not what you or I think.
    He does?   Despite the fact he (correctly) calls them a "competitor"?
    You continue living in Trump's alternate reality.  And, like him, just make stuff up,

    It doesn't even make sense that China would position themselves as a military threat to the U.S.   They need the U.S. to achieve their ultimate goal:   "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations".  

    Trump saw that.  But to him "Competitor" is no different from "enemy".  So he went to his old stand-by "National Security Threat".   And, as usual, the fools bought his con.
     "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations"
    You have been the victim of China's propaganda. 

    You really haven't a clue of what China is about in the world, nor the U.S. responsibility to maintain order, do you?

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2021/02/11/in-the-south-china-sea-its-meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss/

    The Biden Administration is well aware of the threat of China to the world.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-enlists-allies-to-counter-chinas-technology-push-11614524400

    "President Biden portrays U.S. relations with China as a clash of values: democracy vs. autocracy.

    But his rhetoric obscures the administration’s more pragmatic approach of cobbling together groups of countries to work jointly on technology. The goal is to stay ahead of China in semiconductors, artificial intelligence and other advances that are expected to define the economy and military of the future.

    Preliminary conversations with U.S. allies have begun, though the effort is expected to take months, said senior administration officials.

    The strategy has both offensive and defensive components. By combining efforts, the U.S. and its allies can vastly outspend China, whose research-and-development budget now nearly matches the U.S. The alliances can also coordinate policies to deny China the technologies it needs to try to become a global leader".


    I'm the victim of reality.
    You are an ideologue caught in the web of Chump's con game.

    But, the good news is:  From this post it is good to see you getting away from that ludicrous "National Security" bullshit and admitting what is really going on:   China is advancing enough economically, technically and politically to soon challenge western hegemony.  And, we're scared.

    THAT is reality.
    The question is:  What, if anything, are we going to do about it?
    ... I find it unlikely that smear campaigns built on lies and nationalistic false pride will get us where we would like to be.
    LOL,

    So you're okay with the rise of authoritarianism? I'm not, and I don't see why the West should assist China into becoming a greater military threat.
    chia
  • Reply 67 of 76
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,272member
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
    The Biden Administration considers China a national security risk, and they will work to mitigate that. 

    That's all that matters. You seem unable to comprehend that China is a National Security risk, and that puts in in denial. 

    But again, it matters not what you or I think.
    He does?   Despite the fact he (correctly) calls them a "competitor"?
    You continue living in Trump's alternate reality.  And, like him, just make stuff up,

    It doesn't even make sense that China would position themselves as a military threat to the U.S.   They need the U.S. to achieve their ultimate goal:   "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations".  

    Trump saw that.  But to him "Competitor" is no different from "enemy".  So he went to his old stand-by "National Security Threat".   And, as usual, the fools bought his con.
     "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations"
    You have been the victim of China's propaganda. 

    You really haven't a clue of what China is about in the world, nor the U.S. responsibility to maintain order, do you?

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2021/02/11/in-the-south-china-sea-its-meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss/

    The Biden Administration is well aware of the threat of China to the world.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-enlists-allies-to-counter-chinas-technology-push-11614524400

    "President Biden portrays U.S. relations with China as a clash of values: democracy vs. autocracy.

    But his rhetoric obscures the administration’s more pragmatic approach of cobbling together groups of countries to work jointly on technology. The goal is to stay ahead of China in semiconductors, artificial intelligence and other advances that are expected to define the economy and military of the future.

    Preliminary conversations with U.S. allies have begun, though the effort is expected to take months, said senior administration officials.

    The strategy has both offensive and defensive components. By combining efforts, the U.S. and its allies can vastly outspend China, whose research-and-development budget now nearly matches the U.S. The alliances can also coordinate policies to deny China the technologies it needs to try to become a global leader".


    I'm the victim of reality.
    You are an ideologue caught in the web of Chump's con game.

    But, the good news is:  From this post it is good to see you getting away from that ludicrous "National Security" bullshit and admitting what is really going on:   China is advancing enough economically, technically and politically to soon challenge western hegemony.  And, we're scared.

    THAT is reality.
    The question is:  What, if anything, are we going to do about it?
    ... I find it unlikely that smear campaigns built on lies and nationalistic false pride will get us where we would like to be.
    LOL,

    So you're okay with the rise of authoritarianism? I'm not, and I don't see why the West should assist China into becoming a greater military threat.

    Ahhh!   See what I mean?   You just jumped from "Is authoritarianism ok?" to "a military threat" -- it's a pretty sure indication that you're starting with hate (I would suppose of authoriatarianism) and looking for things to hold against them.

    But, let's take authoritarianism first:   I'm indifferent towards it.  Partly, it's none of my business (we have enough problems here to worry about.  And besides -- like democracy, it can be either good or bad.   Compare China and the U.S. over the past 4 years:   China progressed at a 6% GDP, pulled millions out of poverty and conquered the virus in just a few months -- by June they were fully open and only lost less than 5,000 people.   Here, we barely made 2% GDP and ended up well into the negative, people and businesses were going bankrupt, we still aren't fully open and over half a million have died -- while we racked up a $4Trillion deficit.   That authoritarian government took care of its people and has been fiscally responsible -- we killed our people and are on the way to bankruptcy.

    As for the military threat:   There is zero evidence that they have any plans to ever attack the U.S.  So where is the threat -- except in the minds of scared, brainwashed Trumpers?  Meanwhile, we threaten them on a regular basis sailing warships into or close to their territory.   It sounds to me like it is us who is the threat to peace.

    But, I know truth won't change your mind.
    You hate China and will continue to look for ways to justify your hate.
  • Reply 68 of 76
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,272member
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
    The Biden Administration considers China a national security risk, and they will work to mitigate that. 

    That's all that matters. You seem unable to comprehend that China is a National Security risk, and that puts in in denial. 

    But again, it matters not what you or I think.
    He does?   Despite the fact he (correctly) calls them a "competitor"?
    You continue living in Trump's alternate reality.  And, like him, just make stuff up,

    It doesn't even make sense that China would position themselves as a military threat to the U.S.   They need the U.S. to achieve their ultimate goal:   "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations".  

    Trump saw that.  But to him "Competitor" is no different from "enemy".  So he went to his old stand-by "National Security Threat".   And, as usual, the fools bought his con.
     "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations"
    You have been the victim of China's propaganda. 

    You really haven't a clue of what China is about in the world, nor the U.S. responsibility to maintain order, do you?

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2021/02/11/in-the-south-china-sea-its-meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss/

    The Biden Administration is well aware of the threat of China to the world.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-enlists-allies-to-counter-chinas-technology-push-11614524400

    "President Biden portrays U.S. relations with China as a clash of values: democracy vs. autocracy.

    But his rhetoric obscures the administration’s more pragmatic approach of cobbling together groups of countries to work jointly on technology. The goal is to stay ahead of China in semiconductors, artificial intelligence and other advances that are expected to define the economy and military of the future.

    Preliminary conversations with U.S. allies have begun, though the effort is expected to take months, said senior administration officials.

    The strategy has both offensive and defensive components. By combining efforts, the U.S. and its allies can vastly outspend China, whose research-and-development budget now nearly matches the U.S. The alliances can also coordinate policies to deny China the technologies it needs to try to become a global leader".


    I'm the victim of reality.
    You are an ideologue caught in the web of Chump's con game.

    But, the good news is:  From this post it is good to see you getting away from that ludicrous "National Security" bullshit and admitting what is really going on:   China is advancing enough economically, technically and politically to soon challenge western hegemony.  And, we're scared.

    THAT is reality.
    The question is:  What, if anything, are we going to do about it?
    ... I find it unlikely that smear campaigns built on lies and nationalistic false pride will get us where we would like to be.
    LOL,

    So you're okay with the rise of authoritarianism? I'm not, and I don't see why the West should assist China into becoming a greater military threat.

    Let me pose another question for you:
    While the U.S. sinks hundreds of billions into F35's and Aircraft Carrier groups,  China is vaccinating much of the world against the Corona Pandemic -- while the U.S. refuses to share its vaccines even with its closest neighbor and largest trading partner Mexico.  

    So, while the U.S. continues to build military might, China continues to build friendships around the world.
    Some would call that "Vaccine Diplomacy" a threat to the U.S.

    I say it is the U.S. who is the threat -- building and deploying weapons of mass destruction  -- while withholding lifesaving medicines from poorer countries.

    What do you say?  Who is the bigger threat to the world?  The one deploying vaccines or the one deploying weapons of mass destruction?


    Biden not considering sharing Covid vaccine with Mexico

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/01/biden-mexico-covid-vaccine-sharing-471939




  • Reply 69 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,083member
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
    The Biden Administration considers China a national security risk, and they will work to mitigate that. 

    That's all that matters. You seem unable to comprehend that China is a National Security risk, and that puts in in denial. 

    But again, it matters not what you or I think.
    He does?   Despite the fact he (correctly) calls them a "competitor"?
    You continue living in Trump's alternate reality.  And, like him, just make stuff up,

    It doesn't even make sense that China would position themselves as a military threat to the U.S.   They need the U.S. to achieve their ultimate goal:   "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations".  

    Trump saw that.  But to him "Competitor" is no different from "enemy".  So he went to his old stand-by "National Security Threat".   And, as usual, the fools bought his con.
     "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations"
    You have been the victim of China's propaganda. 

    You really haven't a clue of what China is about in the world, nor the U.S. responsibility to maintain order, do you?

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2021/02/11/in-the-south-china-sea-its-meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss/

    The Biden Administration is well aware of the threat of China to the world.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-enlists-allies-to-counter-chinas-technology-push-11614524400

    "President Biden portrays U.S. relations with China as a clash of values: democracy vs. autocracy.

    But his rhetoric obscures the administration’s more pragmatic approach of cobbling together groups of countries to work jointly on technology. The goal is to stay ahead of China in semiconductors, artificial intelligence and other advances that are expected to define the economy and military of the future.

    Preliminary conversations with U.S. allies have begun, though the effort is expected to take months, said senior administration officials.

    The strategy has both offensive and defensive components. By combining efforts, the U.S. and its allies can vastly outspend China, whose research-and-development budget now nearly matches the U.S. The alliances can also coordinate policies to deny China the technologies it needs to try to become a global leader".


    I'm the victim of reality.
    You are an ideologue caught in the web of Chump's con game.

    But, the good news is:  From this post it is good to see you getting away from that ludicrous "National Security" bullshit and admitting what is really going on:   China is advancing enough economically, technically and politically to soon challenge western hegemony.  And, we're scared.

    THAT is reality.
    The question is:  What, if anything, are we going to do about it?
    ... I find it unlikely that smear campaigns built on lies and nationalistic false pride will get us where we would like to be.
    LOL,

    So you're okay with the rise of authoritarianism? I'm not, and I don't see why the West should assist China into becoming a greater military threat.

    Let me pose another question for you:
    While the U.S. sinks hundreds of billions into F35's and Aircraft Carrier groups,  China is vaccinating much of the world against the Corona Pandemic -- while the U.S. refuses to share its vaccines even with its closest neighbor and largest trading partner Mexico.  

    So, while the U.S. continues to build military might, China continues to build friendships around the world.
    Some would call that "Vaccine Diplomacy" a threat to the U.S.

    I say it is the U.S. who is the threat -- building and deploying weapons of mass destruction  -- while withholding lifesaving medicines from poorer countries.

    What do you say?  Who is the bigger threat to the world?  The one deploying vaccines or the one deploying weapons of mass destruction?


    Biden not considering sharing Covid vaccine with Mexico

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/01/biden-mexico-covid-vaccine-sharing-471939




    LOL,

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/vaccines-coronavirus-china-herd-immunity/2021/01/29/405d1070-5eb9-11eb-a177-7765f29a9524_story.html

    China had a head start on coronavirus vaccinations. It’s now falling behind the West.


    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/01/third-time-s-charm-brazil-scales-back-efficacy-claims-covid-19-vaccine-china

    "In the third in a series of conflicting announcements about a Chinese-made COVID-19 vaccine candidate, Brazilian researchers reported today that the results of their efficacy trial were less impressive than they claimed last week. When analyzed by stricter criteria than used earlier, the vaccine’s efficacy against all forms of COVID-19, including mild cases, dropped from about 78% to 50%."


    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-announce-merck-will-help-manufacture-johnson-johnson-s-coronavirus-n1259262

    WASHINGTON — President Joe Biden will announce Tuesday that Merck & Co. will help manufacture Johnson & Johnson’s single-shot coronavirus vaccine, a senior administration official confirmed to NBC News.

    "The agreement could boost supply of the vaccine, which is being delivered to states this week after gaining federal approval for distribution to the public.

    The deal between the two major pharmaceutical companies, first reported by The Washington Post, was brokered by the Biden administration after officials found out that Johnson & Johnson had fallen behind in the production of its vaccine.

    The partnership will involve two Merck facilities, one of which will produce the vaccine while the other carries out the last phase of the manufacturing process, the Post reported."

    I'm very happy that the Biden Administration is fulfilling its promise to the American People, whereas China is more interested in "vaccine diplomacy" than vaccinating its own people.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-25/india-beats-china-at-its-own-game-in-vaccine-diplomacy-battle

    "India’s huge capacity to make coronavirus vaccines is helping the country take on China in the battle to gain political influence across the developing world.

    At the same time, India was struggling to contain one of the world’s worst outbreaks of the virus, with nearly 100,000 cases a day, while a nationwide lockdown sent its economy into recession for the first time in 25 years.

    But Chinese pharmaceutical companies have been reticent in sharing details of their pivotal vaccine trials crucial for building public trust around the world, and new domestic outbreaks reinforced the urgency of inoculating China’s own 1.4 billion population, a task that could take years. Meanwhile, India sent millions of doses to neighboring Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, allowing them to begin vaccinations earlier than if they had waited for Chinese doses."

    You are so much a tool of China's influence campaigns...

    edited March 2
  • Reply 70 of 76
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,272member
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
    The Biden Administration considers China a national security risk, and they will work to mitigate that. 

    That's all that matters. You seem unable to comprehend that China is a National Security risk, and that puts in in denial. 

    But again, it matters not what you or I think.
    He does?   Despite the fact he (correctly) calls them a "competitor"?
    You continue living in Trump's alternate reality.  And, like him, just make stuff up,

    It doesn't even make sense that China would position themselves as a military threat to the U.S.   They need the U.S. to achieve their ultimate goal:   "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations".  

    Trump saw that.  But to him "Competitor" is no different from "enemy".  So he went to his old stand-by "National Security Threat".   And, as usual, the fools bought his con.
     "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations"
    You have been the victim of China's propaganda. 

    You really haven't a clue of what China is about in the world, nor the U.S. responsibility to maintain order, do you?

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2021/02/11/in-the-south-china-sea-its-meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss/

    The Biden Administration is well aware of the threat of China to the world.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-enlists-allies-to-counter-chinas-technology-push-11614524400

    "President Biden portrays U.S. relations with China as a clash of values: democracy vs. autocracy.

    But his rhetoric obscures the administration’s more pragmatic approach of cobbling together groups of countries to work jointly on technology. The goal is to stay ahead of China in semiconductors, artificial intelligence and other advances that are expected to define the economy and military of the future.

    Preliminary conversations with U.S. allies have begun, though the effort is expected to take months, said senior administration officials.

    The strategy has both offensive and defensive components. By combining efforts, the U.S. and its allies can vastly outspend China, whose research-and-development budget now nearly matches the U.S. The alliances can also coordinate policies to deny China the technologies it needs to try to become a global leader".


    I'm the victim of reality.
    You are an ideologue caught in the web of Chump's con game.

    But, the good news is:  From this post it is good to see you getting away from that ludicrous "National Security" bullshit and admitting what is really going on:   China is advancing enough economically, technically and politically to soon challenge western hegemony.  And, we're scared.

    THAT is reality.
    The question is:  What, if anything, are we going to do about it?
    ... I find it unlikely that smear campaigns built on lies and nationalistic false pride will get us where we would like to be.
    LOL,

    So you're okay with the rise of authoritarianism? I'm not, and I don't see why the West should assist China into becoming a greater military threat.

    Let me pose another question for you:
    While the U.S. sinks hundreds of billions into F35's and Aircraft Carrier groups,  China is vaccinating much of the world against the Corona Pandemic -- while the U.S. refuses to share its vaccines even with its closest neighbor and largest trading partner Mexico.  

    So, while the U.S. continues to build military might, China continues to build friendships around the world.
    Some would call that "Vaccine Diplomacy" a threat to the U.S.

    I say it is the U.S. who is the threat -- building and deploying weapons of mass destruction  -- while withholding lifesaving medicines from poorer countries.

    What do you say?  Who is the bigger threat to the world?  The one deploying vaccines or the one deploying weapons of mass destruction?


    Biden not considering sharing Covid vaccine with Mexico

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/01/biden-mexico-covid-vaccine-sharing-471939




    LOL,

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/vaccines-coronavirus-china-herd-immunity/2021/01/29/405d1070-5eb9-11eb-a177-7765f29a9524_story.html

    China had a head start on coronavirus vaccinations. It’s now falling behind the West.


    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/01/third-time-s-charm-brazil-scales-back-efficacy-claims-covid-19-vaccine-china

    "In the third in a series of conflicting announcements about a Chinese-made COVID-19 vaccine candidate, Brazilian researchers reported today that the results of their efficacy trial were less impressive than they claimed last week. When analyzed by stricter criteria than used earlier, the vaccine’s efficacy against all forms of COVID-19, including mild cases, dropped from about 78% to 50%."


    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-announce-merck-will-help-manufacture-johnson-johnson-s-coronavirus-n1259262

    WASHINGTON — President Joe Biden will announce Tuesday that Merck & Co. will help manufacture Johnson & Johnson’s single-shot coronavirus vaccine, a senior administration official confirmed to NBC News.

    "The agreement could boost supply of the vaccine, which is being delivered to states this week after gaining federal approval for distribution to the public.

    The deal between the two major pharmaceutical companies, first reported by The Washington Post, was brokered by the Biden administration after officials found out that Johnson & Johnson had fallen behind in the production of its vaccine.

    The partnership will involve two Merck facilities, one of which will produce the vaccine while the other carries out the last phase of the manufacturing process, the Post reported."

    I'm very happy that the Biden Administration is fulfilling its promise to the American People, whereas China is more interested in "vaccine diplomacy" than vaccinating its own people.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-25/india-beats-china-at-its-own-game-in-vaccine-diplomacy-battle

    "India’s huge capacity to make coronavirus vaccines is helping the country take on China in the battle to gain political influence across the developing world.

    At the same time, India was struggling to contain one of the world’s worst outbreaks of the virus, with nearly 100,000 cases a day, while a nationwide lockdown sent its economy into recession for the first time in 25 years.

    But Chinese pharmaceutical companies have been reticent in sharing details of their pivotal vaccine trials crucial for building public trust around the world, and new domestic outbreaks reinforced the urgency of inoculating China’s own 1.4 billion population, a task that could take years. Meanwhile, India sent millions of doses to neighboring Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, allowing them to begin vaccinations earlier than if they had waited for Chinese doses."

    You are so much a tool of China's influence campaigns...


    Can you spell "strawman"?
    China lost less than 5,000 people.
    We lost over 500,000 people.

    So, you want to bring up a strawman -- which is even more ridiculous because, while we hoard our vaccines China is vaccinating the world -- which they can do because they controlled the virus long ago -- back in May or June of last year.

    So, who's the tool?   It looks like you are -- of the right wing hate campaign.

    All you have is hate.   And Google to find ways to justify your hate.
  • Reply 71 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,083member
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    tmay said:
    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
    The Biden Administration considers China a national security risk, and they will work to mitigate that. 

    That's all that matters. You seem unable to comprehend that China is a National Security risk, and that puts in in denial. 

    But again, it matters not what you or I think.
    He does?   Despite the fact he (correctly) calls them a "competitor"?
    You continue living in Trump's alternate reality.  And, like him, just make stuff up,

    It doesn't even make sense that China would position themselves as a military threat to the U.S.   They need the U.S. to achieve their ultimate goal:   "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations".  

    Trump saw that.  But to him "Competitor" is no different from "enemy".  So he went to his old stand-by "National Security Threat".   And, as usual, the fools bought his con.
     "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations"
    You have been the victim of China's propaganda. 

    You really haven't a clue of what China is about in the world, nor the U.S. responsibility to maintain order, do you?

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2021/02/11/in-the-south-china-sea-its-meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss/

    The Biden Administration is well aware of the threat of China to the world.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-enlists-allies-to-counter-chinas-technology-push-11614524400

    "President Biden portrays U.S. relations with China as a clash of values: democracy vs. autocracy.

    But his rhetoric obscures the administration’s more pragmatic approach of cobbling together groups of countries to work jointly on technology. The goal is to stay ahead of China in semiconductors, artificial intelligence and other advances that are expected to define the economy and military of the future.

    Preliminary conversations with U.S. allies have begun, though the effort is expected to take months, said senior administration officials.

    The strategy has both offensive and defensive components. By combining efforts, the U.S. and its allies can vastly outspend China, whose research-and-development budget now nearly matches the U.S. The alliances can also coordinate policies to deny China the technologies it needs to try to become a global leader".


    I'm the victim of reality.
    You are an ideologue caught in the web of Chump's con game.

    But, the good news is:  From this post it is good to see you getting away from that ludicrous "National Security" bullshit and admitting what is really going on:   China is advancing enough economically, technically and politically to soon challenge western hegemony.  And, we're scared.

    THAT is reality.
    The question is:  What, if anything, are we going to do about it?
    ... I find it unlikely that smear campaigns built on lies and nationalistic false pride will get us where we would like to be.
    LOL,

    So you're okay with the rise of authoritarianism? I'm not, and I don't see why the West should assist China into becoming a greater military threat.

    Let me pose another question for you:
    While the U.S. sinks hundreds of billions into F35's and Aircraft Carrier groups,  China is vaccinating much of the world against the Corona Pandemic -- while the U.S. refuses to share its vaccines even with its closest neighbor and largest trading partner Mexico.  

    So, while the U.S. continues to build military might, China continues to build friendships around the world.
    Some would call that "Vaccine Diplomacy" a threat to the U.S.

    I say it is the U.S. who is the threat -- building and deploying weapons of mass destruction  -- while withholding lifesaving medicines from poorer countries.

    What do you say?  Who is the bigger threat to the world?  The one deploying vaccines or the one deploying weapons of mass destruction?


    Biden not considering sharing Covid vaccine with Mexico

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/01/biden-mexico-covid-vaccine-sharing-471939




    LOL,

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/vaccines-coronavirus-china-herd-immunity/2021/01/29/405d1070-5eb9-11eb-a177-7765f29a9524_story.html

    China had a head start on coronavirus vaccinations. It’s now falling behind the West.


    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/01/third-time-s-charm-brazil-scales-back-efficacy-claims-covid-19-vaccine-china

    "In the third in a series of conflicting announcements about a Chinese-made COVID-19 vaccine candidate, Brazilian researchers reported today that the results of their efficacy trial were less impressive than they claimed last week. When analyzed by stricter criteria than used earlier, the vaccine’s efficacy against all forms of COVID-19, including mild cases, dropped from about 78% to 50%."


    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-announce-merck-will-help-manufacture-johnson-johnson-s-coronavirus-n1259262

    WASHINGTON — President Joe Biden will announce Tuesday that Merck & Co. will help manufacture Johnson & Johnson’s single-shot coronavirus vaccine, a senior administration official confirmed to NBC News.

    "The agreement could boost supply of the vaccine, which is being delivered to states this week after gaining federal approval for distribution to the public.

    The deal between the two major pharmaceutical companies, first reported by The Washington Post, was brokered by the Biden administration after officials found out that Johnson & Johnson had fallen behind in the production of its vaccine.

    The partnership will involve two Merck facilities, one of which will produce the vaccine while the other carries out the last phase of the manufacturing process, the Post reported."

    I'm very happy that the Biden Administration is fulfilling its promise to the American People, whereas China is more interested in "vaccine diplomacy" than vaccinating its own people.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-25/india-beats-china-at-its-own-game-in-vaccine-diplomacy-battle

    "India’s huge capacity to make coronavirus vaccines is helping the country take on China in the battle to gain political influence across the developing world.

    At the same time, India was struggling to contain one of the world’s worst outbreaks of the virus, with nearly 100,000 cases a day, while a nationwide lockdown sent its economy into recession for the first time in 25 years.

    But Chinese pharmaceutical companies have been reticent in sharing details of their pivotal vaccine trials crucial for building public trust around the world, and new domestic outbreaks reinforced the urgency of inoculating China’s own 1.4 billion population, a task that could take years. Meanwhile, India sent millions of doses to neighboring Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, allowing them to begin vaccinations earlier than if they had waited for Chinese doses."

    You are so much a tool of China's influence campaigns...


    Can you spell "strawman"?
    China lost less than 5,000 people.
    We lost over 500,000 people.

    So, you want to bring up a strawman -- which is even more ridiculous because, while we hoard our vaccines China is vaccinating the world -- which they can do because they controlled the virus long ago -- back in May or June of last year.

    So, who's the tool?   It looks like you are -- of the right wing hate campaign.

    All you have is hate.   And Google to find ways to justify your hate.
    Oh FFS,

    The U.S. fucking up the COVID by not being an Authoritarian power, and then having the capability to provide it's entire population with vaccinations, by the end of May at that, while China drags out its own vaccinations, so that they can convince other countries that Authoritarianism is great. 

    That line worked for you, but I doubt that countries will roll over to China's ambitions for a relatively small amount of vaccine. Good luck on China providing Brazil with enough for its entire population of 211 million.

    I'll be speaking more about China's militarism, as the opportunities arise. That you have your head stuck in the sand doesn't mean that China's aggressions don't exist, and certainly don't give any indication that China is peaceful.

    EDIT;

    Found this story on Brazil:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/coronavirus-brazil-vaccine-variant-bolsonaro/2021/03/01/1a03d52a-7a12-11eb-a976-c028a4215c78_story.html

    They have a Trump clone running the country, so getting worse, rather than better.
    edited March 3 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 72 of 76
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,272member
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    avon b7 said:
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
    The Biden Administration considers China a national security risk, and they will work to mitigate that. 

    That's all that matters. You seem unable to comprehend that China is a National Security risk, and that puts in in denial. 

    But again, it matters not what you or I think.
    He does?   Despite the fact he (correctly) calls them a "competitor"?
    You continue living in Trump's alternate reality.  And, like him, just make stuff up,

    It doesn't even make sense that China would position themselves as a military threat to the U.S.   They need the U.S. to achieve their ultimate goal:   "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations".  

    Trump saw that.  But to him "Competitor" is no different from "enemy".  So he went to his old stand-by "National Security Threat".   And, as usual, the fools bought his con.
     "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations"
    You have been the victim of China's propaganda. 

    You really haven't a clue of what China is about in the world, nor the U.S. responsibility to maintain order, do you?

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2021/02/11/in-the-south-china-sea-its-meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss/

    The Biden Administration is well aware of the threat of China to the world.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-enlists-allies-to-counter-chinas-technology-push-11614524400

    "President Biden portrays U.S. relations with China as a clash of values: democracy vs. autocracy.

    But his rhetoric obscures the administration’s more pragmatic approach of cobbling together groups of countries to work jointly on technology. The goal is to stay ahead of China in semiconductors, artificial intelligence and other advances that are expected to define the economy and military of the future.

    Preliminary conversations with U.S. allies have begun, though the effort is expected to take months, said senior administration officials.

    The strategy has both offensive and defensive components. By combining efforts, the U.S. and its allies can vastly outspend China, whose research-and-development budget now nearly matches the U.S. The alliances can also coordinate policies to deny China the technologies it needs to try to become a global leader".


    I'm the victim of reality.
    You are an ideologue caught in the web of Chump's con game.

    But, the good news is:  From this post it is good to see you getting away from that ludicrous "National Security" bullshit and admitting what is really going on:   China is advancing enough economically, technically and politically to soon challenge western hegemony.  And, we're scared.

    THAT is reality.
    The question is:  What, if anything, are we going to do about it?
    ... I find it unlikely that smear campaigns built on lies and nationalistic false pride will get us where we would like to be.
    LOL,

    So you're okay with the rise of authoritarianism? I'm not, and I don't see why the West should assist China into becoming a greater military threat.

    Let me pose another question for you:
    While the U.S. sinks hundreds of billions into F35's and Aircraft Carrier groups,  China is vaccinating much of the world against the Corona Pandemic -- while the U.S. refuses to share its vaccines even with its closest neighbor and largest trading partner Mexico.  

    So, while the U.S. continues to build military might, China continues to build friendships around the world.
    Some would call that "Vaccine Diplomacy" a threat to the U.S.

    I say it is the U.S. who is the threat -- building and deploying weapons of mass destruction  -- while withholding lifesaving medicines from poorer countries.

    What do you say?  Who is the bigger threat to the world?  The one deploying vaccines or the one deploying weapons of mass destruction?


    Biden not considering sharing Covid vaccine with Mexico

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/01/biden-mexico-covid-vaccine-sharing-471939




    LOL,

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/vaccines-coronavirus-china-herd-immunity/2021/01/29/405d1070-5eb9-11eb-a177-7765f29a9524_story.html

    China had a head start on coronavirus vaccinations. It’s now falling behind the West.


    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/01/third-time-s-charm-brazil-scales-back-efficacy-claims-covid-19-vaccine-china

    "In the third in a series of conflicting announcements about a Chinese-made COVID-19 vaccine candidate, Brazilian researchers reported today that the results of their efficacy trial were less impressive than they claimed last week. When analyzed by stricter criteria than used earlier, the vaccine’s efficacy against all forms of COVID-19, including mild cases, dropped from about 78% to 50%."


    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-announce-merck-will-help-manufacture-johnson-johnson-s-coronavirus-n1259262

    WASHINGTON — President Joe Biden will announce Tuesday that Merck & Co. will help manufacture Johnson & Johnson’s single-shot coronavirus vaccine, a senior administration official confirmed to NBC News.

    "The agreement could boost supply of the vaccine, which is being delivered to states this week after gaining federal approval for distribution to the public.

    The deal between the two major pharmaceutical companies, first reported by The Washington Post, was brokered by the Biden administration after officials found out that Johnson & Johnson had fallen behind in the production of its vaccine.

    The partnership will involve two Merck facilities, one of which will produce the vaccine while the other carries out the last phase of the manufacturing process, the Post reported."

    I'm very happy that the Biden Administration is fulfilling its promise to the American People, whereas China is more interested in "vaccine diplomacy" than vaccinating its own people.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-25/india-beats-china-at-its-own-game-in-vaccine-diplomacy-battle

    "India’s huge capacity to make coronavirus vaccines is helping the country take on China in the battle to gain political influence across the developing world.

    At the same time, India was struggling to contain one of the world’s worst outbreaks of the virus, with nearly 100,000 cases a day, while a nationwide lockdown sent its economy into recession for the first time in 25 years.

    But Chinese pharmaceutical companies have been reticent in sharing details of their pivotal vaccine trials crucial for building public trust around the world, and new domestic outbreaks reinforced the urgency of inoculating China’s own 1.4 billion population, a task that could take years. Meanwhile, India sent millions of doses to neighboring Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, allowing them to begin vaccinations earlier than if they had waited for Chinese doses."

    You are so much a tool of China's influence campaigns...


    Can you spell "strawman"?
    China lost less than 5,000 people.
    We lost over 500,000 people.

    So, you want to bring up a strawman -- which is even more ridiculous because, while we hoard our vaccines China is vaccinating the world -- which they can do because they controlled the virus long ago -- back in May or June of last year.

    So, who's the tool?   It looks like you are -- of the right wing hate campaign.

    All you have is hate.   And Google to find ways to justify your hate.
    Oh FFS,

    The U.S. fucking up the COVID by not being an Authoritarian power, and then having the capability to provide it's entire population with vaccinations, by the end of May at that, while China drags out its own vaccinations, so that they can convince other countries that Authoritarianism is great. 

    That line worked for you, but I doubt that countries will roll over to China's ambitions for a relatively small amount of vaccine. Good luck on China providing Brazil with enough for its entire population of 211 million.

    I'll be speaking more about China's militarism, as the opportunities arise. That you have your head stuck in the sand doesn't mean that China's aggressions don't exist, and certainly don't give any indication that China is peaceful.

    EDIT;

    Found this story on Brazil:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/coronavirus-brazil-vaccine-variant-bolsonaro/2021/03/01/1a03d52a-7a12-11eb-a976-c028a4215c78_story.html

    They have a Trump clone running the country, so getting worse, rather than better.

    So, you are saying that a democracy is unable to protect its people?
    Then you ignore the fact that China is vaccinating the world while the U.S. can't vaccinate itself even while it hoards the vaccines that others are begging for.   But, the good part is that many of them will get Chinese vaccines.

    But, you still hate China because it doesn't do things like the U.S.    Got it.
  • Reply 73 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,083member
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
    The Biden Administration considers China a national security risk, and they will work to mitigate that. 

    That's all that matters. You seem unable to comprehend that China is a National Security risk, and that puts in in denial. 

    But again, it matters not what you or I think.
    He does?   Despite the fact he (correctly) calls them a "competitor"?
    You continue living in Trump's alternate reality.  And, like him, just make stuff up,

    It doesn't even make sense that China would position themselves as a military threat to the U.S.   They need the U.S. to achieve their ultimate goal:   "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations".  

    Trump saw that.  But to him "Competitor" is no different from "enemy".  So he went to his old stand-by "National Security Threat".   And, as usual, the fools bought his con.
     "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations"
    You have been the victim of China's propaganda. 

    You really haven't a clue of what China is about in the world, nor the U.S. responsibility to maintain order, do you?

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2021/02/11/in-the-south-china-sea-its-meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss/

    The Biden Administration is well aware of the threat of China to the world.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-enlists-allies-to-counter-chinas-technology-push-11614524400

    "President Biden portrays U.S. relations with China as a clash of values: democracy vs. autocracy.

    But his rhetoric obscures the administration’s more pragmatic approach of cobbling together groups of countries to work jointly on technology. The goal is to stay ahead of China in semiconductors, artificial intelligence and other advances that are expected to define the economy and military of the future.

    Preliminary conversations with U.S. allies have begun, though the effort is expected to take months, said senior administration officials.

    The strategy has both offensive and defensive components. By combining efforts, the U.S. and its allies can vastly outspend China, whose research-and-development budget now nearly matches the U.S. The alliances can also coordinate policies to deny China the technologies it needs to try to become a global leader".


    I'm the victim of reality.
    You are an ideologue caught in the web of Chump's con game.

    But, the good news is:  From this post it is good to see you getting away from that ludicrous "National Security" bullshit and admitting what is really going on:   China is advancing enough economically, technically and politically to soon challenge western hegemony.  And, we're scared.

    THAT is reality.
    The question is:  What, if anything, are we going to do about it?
    ... I find it unlikely that smear campaigns built on lies and nationalistic false pride will get us where we would like to be.
    LOL,

    So you're okay with the rise of authoritarianism? I'm not, and I don't see why the West should assist China into becoming a greater military threat.

    Let me pose another question for you:
    While the U.S. sinks hundreds of billions into F35's and Aircraft Carrier groups,  China is vaccinating much of the world against the Corona Pandemic -- while the U.S. refuses to share its vaccines even with its closest neighbor and largest trading partner Mexico.  

    So, while the U.S. continues to build military might, China continues to build friendships around the world.
    Some would call that "Vaccine Diplomacy" a threat to the U.S.

    I say it is the U.S. who is the threat -- building and deploying weapons of mass destruction  -- while withholding lifesaving medicines from poorer countries.

    What do you say?  Who is the bigger threat to the world?  The one deploying vaccines or the one deploying weapons of mass destruction?


    Biden not considering sharing Covid vaccine with Mexico

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/01/biden-mexico-covid-vaccine-sharing-471939




    LOL,

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/vaccines-coronavirus-china-herd-immunity/2021/01/29/405d1070-5eb9-11eb-a177-7765f29a9524_story.html

    China had a head start on coronavirus vaccinations. It’s now falling behind the West.


    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/01/third-time-s-charm-brazil-scales-back-efficacy-claims-covid-19-vaccine-china

    "In the third in a series of conflicting announcements about a Chinese-made COVID-19 vaccine candidate, Brazilian researchers reported today that the results of their efficacy trial were less impressive than they claimed last week. When analyzed by stricter criteria than used earlier, the vaccine’s efficacy against all forms of COVID-19, including mild cases, dropped from about 78% to 50%."


    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-announce-merck-will-help-manufacture-johnson-johnson-s-coronavirus-n1259262

    WASHINGTON — President Joe Biden will announce Tuesday that Merck & Co. will help manufacture Johnson & Johnson’s single-shot coronavirus vaccine, a senior administration official confirmed to NBC News.

    "The agreement could boost supply of the vaccine, which is being delivered to states this week after gaining federal approval for distribution to the public.

    The deal between the two major pharmaceutical companies, first reported by The Washington Post, was brokered by the Biden administration after officials found out that Johnson & Johnson had fallen behind in the production of its vaccine.

    The partnership will involve two Merck facilities, one of which will produce the vaccine while the other carries out the last phase of the manufacturing process, the Post reported."

    I'm very happy that the Biden Administration is fulfilling its promise to the American People, whereas China is more interested in "vaccine diplomacy" than vaccinating its own people.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-25/india-beats-china-at-its-own-game-in-vaccine-diplomacy-battle

    "India’s huge capacity to make coronavirus vaccines is helping the country take on China in the battle to gain political influence across the developing world.

    At the same time, India was struggling to contain one of the world’s worst outbreaks of the virus, with nearly 100,000 cases a day, while a nationwide lockdown sent its economy into recession for the first time in 25 years.

    But Chinese pharmaceutical companies have been reticent in sharing details of their pivotal vaccine trials crucial for building public trust around the world, and new domestic outbreaks reinforced the urgency of inoculating China’s own 1.4 billion population, a task that could take years. Meanwhile, India sent millions of doses to neighboring Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, allowing them to begin vaccinations earlier than if they had waited for Chinese doses."

    You are so much a tool of China's influence campaigns...


    Can you spell "strawman"?
    China lost less than 5,000 people.
    We lost over 500,000 people.

    So, you want to bring up a strawman -- which is even more ridiculous because, while we hoard our vaccines China is vaccinating the world -- which they can do because they controlled the virus long ago -- back in May or June of last year.

    So, who's the tool?   It looks like you are -- of the right wing hate campaign.

    All you have is hate.   And Google to find ways to justify your hate.
    Oh FFS,

    The U.S. fucking up the COVID by not being an Authoritarian power, and then having the capability to provide it's entire population with vaccinations, by the end of May at that, while China drags out its own vaccinations, so that they can convince other countries that Authoritarianism is great. 

    That line worked for you, but I doubt that countries will roll over to China's ambitions for a relatively small amount of vaccine. Good luck on China providing Brazil with enough for its entire population of 211 million.

    I'll be speaking more about China's militarism, as the opportunities arise. That you have your head stuck in the sand doesn't mean that China's aggressions don't exist, and certainly don't give any indication that China is peaceful.

    EDIT;

    Found this story on Brazil:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/coronavirus-brazil-vaccine-variant-bolsonaro/2021/03/01/1a03d52a-7a12-11eb-a976-c028a4215c78_story.html

    They have a Trump clone running the country, so getting worse, rather than better.

    So, you are saying that a democracy is unable to protect its people?
    Then you ignore the fact that China is vaccinating the world while the U.S. can't vaccinate itself even while it hoards the vaccines that others are begging for.   But, the good part is that many of them will get Chinese vaccines.

    But, you still hate China because it doesn't do things like the U.S.    Got it.
    The U.S. has two, and soon three, very effective vaccines, Pfizer and Moderna needing refrigeration and two doses, and the Johnson and Johnson a little less effective, but a single dose and no refrigeration, is coming. 

    I'm happy that you won't need to get your dose(s) as you await your Chinese vaccine.

    Me, I'm on deck for mine, just waiting for an available slot.


    Meanwhile,

    https://www.aspi.org.au/report/trigger-warning

    Trigger warning. The CCP’s coordinated information effort to discredit the BBC


    Of course, you are in agreement with the CCP, aren't you.

    I wish that the CCP/PRC didn't make it so easy to hate on them, but, there you are, China meddling in the affairs of others again, because free speech everywhere but China.
  • Reply 74 of 76
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,272member
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    avon b7 said:
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
    The Biden Administration considers China a national security risk, and they will work to mitigate that. 

    That's all that matters. You seem unable to comprehend that China is a National Security risk, and that puts in in denial. 

    But again, it matters not what you or I think.
    He does?   Despite the fact he (correctly) calls them a "competitor"?
    You continue living in Trump's alternate reality.  And, like him, just make stuff up,

    It doesn't even make sense that China would position themselves as a military threat to the U.S.   They need the U.S. to achieve their ultimate goal:   "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations".  

    Trump saw that.  But to him "Competitor" is no different from "enemy".  So he went to his old stand-by "National Security Threat".   And, as usual, the fools bought his con.
     "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations"
    You have been the victim of China's propaganda. 

    You really haven't a clue of what China is about in the world, nor the U.S. responsibility to maintain order, do you?

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2021/02/11/in-the-south-china-sea-its-meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss/

    The Biden Administration is well aware of the threat of China to the world.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-enlists-allies-to-counter-chinas-technology-push-11614524400

    "President Biden portrays U.S. relations with China as a clash of values: democracy vs. autocracy.

    But his rhetoric obscures the administration’s more pragmatic approach of cobbling together groups of countries to work jointly on technology. The goal is to stay ahead of China in semiconductors, artificial intelligence and other advances that are expected to define the economy and military of the future.

    Preliminary conversations with U.S. allies have begun, though the effort is expected to take months, said senior administration officials.

    The strategy has both offensive and defensive components. By combining efforts, the U.S. and its allies can vastly outspend China, whose research-and-development budget now nearly matches the U.S. The alliances can also coordinate policies to deny China the technologies it needs to try to become a global leader".


    I'm the victim of reality.
    You are an ideologue caught in the web of Chump's con game.

    But, the good news is:  From this post it is good to see you getting away from that ludicrous "National Security" bullshit and admitting what is really going on:   China is advancing enough economically, technically and politically to soon challenge western hegemony.  And, we're scared.

    THAT is reality.
    The question is:  What, if anything, are we going to do about it?
    ... I find it unlikely that smear campaigns built on lies and nationalistic false pride will get us where we would like to be.
    LOL,

    So you're okay with the rise of authoritarianism? I'm not, and I don't see why the West should assist China into becoming a greater military threat.

    Let me pose another question for you:
    While the U.S. sinks hundreds of billions into F35's and Aircraft Carrier groups,  China is vaccinating much of the world against the Corona Pandemic -- while the U.S. refuses to share its vaccines even with its closest neighbor and largest trading partner Mexico.  

    So, while the U.S. continues to build military might, China continues to build friendships around the world.
    Some would call that "Vaccine Diplomacy" a threat to the U.S.

    I say it is the U.S. who is the threat -- building and deploying weapons of mass destruction  -- while withholding lifesaving medicines from poorer countries.

    What do you say?  Who is the bigger threat to the world?  The one deploying vaccines or the one deploying weapons of mass destruction?


    Biden not considering sharing Covid vaccine with Mexico

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/01/biden-mexico-covid-vaccine-sharing-471939




    LOL,

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/vaccines-coronavirus-china-herd-immunity/2021/01/29/405d1070-5eb9-11eb-a177-7765f29a9524_story.html

    China had a head start on coronavirus vaccinations. It’s now falling behind the West.


    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/01/third-time-s-charm-brazil-scales-back-efficacy-claims-covid-19-vaccine-china

    "In the third in a series of conflicting announcements about a Chinese-made COVID-19 vaccine candidate, Brazilian researchers reported today that the results of their efficacy trial were less impressive than they claimed last week. When analyzed by stricter criteria than used earlier, the vaccine’s efficacy against all forms of COVID-19, including mild cases, dropped from about 78% to 50%."


    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-announce-merck-will-help-manufacture-johnson-johnson-s-coronavirus-n1259262

    WASHINGTON — President Joe Biden will announce Tuesday that Merck & Co. will help manufacture Johnson & Johnson’s single-shot coronavirus vaccine, a senior administration official confirmed to NBC News.

    "The agreement could boost supply of the vaccine, which is being delivered to states this week after gaining federal approval for distribution to the public.

    The deal between the two major pharmaceutical companies, first reported by The Washington Post, was brokered by the Biden administration after officials found out that Johnson & Johnson had fallen behind in the production of its vaccine.

    The partnership will involve two Merck facilities, one of which will produce the vaccine while the other carries out the last phase of the manufacturing process, the Post reported."

    I'm very happy that the Biden Administration is fulfilling its promise to the American People, whereas China is more interested in "vaccine diplomacy" than vaccinating its own people.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-25/india-beats-china-at-its-own-game-in-vaccine-diplomacy-battle

    "India’s huge capacity to make coronavirus vaccines is helping the country take on China in the battle to gain political influence across the developing world.

    At the same time, India was struggling to contain one of the world’s worst outbreaks of the virus, with nearly 100,000 cases a day, while a nationwide lockdown sent its economy into recession for the first time in 25 years.

    But Chinese pharmaceutical companies have been reticent in sharing details of their pivotal vaccine trials crucial for building public trust around the world, and new domestic outbreaks reinforced the urgency of inoculating China’s own 1.4 billion population, a task that could take years. Meanwhile, India sent millions of doses to neighboring Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, allowing them to begin vaccinations earlier than if they had waited for Chinese doses."

    You are so much a tool of China's influence campaigns...


    Can you spell "strawman"?
    China lost less than 5,000 people.
    We lost over 500,000 people.

    So, you want to bring up a strawman -- which is even more ridiculous because, while we hoard our vaccines China is vaccinating the world -- which they can do because they controlled the virus long ago -- back in May or June of last year.

    So, who's the tool?   It looks like you are -- of the right wing hate campaign.

    All you have is hate.   And Google to find ways to justify your hate.
    Oh FFS,

    The U.S. fucking up the COVID by not being an Authoritarian power, and then having the capability to provide it's entire population with vaccinations, by the end of May at that, while China drags out its own vaccinations, so that they can convince other countries that Authoritarianism is great. 

    That line worked for you, but I doubt that countries will roll over to China's ambitions for a relatively small amount of vaccine. Good luck on China providing Brazil with enough for its entire population of 211 million.

    I'll be speaking more about China's militarism, as the opportunities arise. That you have your head stuck in the sand doesn't mean that China's aggressions don't exist, and certainly don't give any indication that China is peaceful.

    EDIT;

    Found this story on Brazil:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/coronavirus-brazil-vaccine-variant-bolsonaro/2021/03/01/1a03d52a-7a12-11eb-a976-c028a4215c78_story.html

    They have a Trump clone running the country, so getting worse, rather than better.

    So, you are saying that a democracy is unable to protect its people?
    Then you ignore the fact that China is vaccinating the world while the U.S. can't vaccinate itself even while it hoards the vaccines that others are begging for.   But, the good part is that many of them will get Chinese vaccines.

    But, you still hate China because it doesn't do things like the U.S.    Got it.
    The U.S. has two, and soon three, very effective vaccines, Pfizer and Moderna needing refrigeration and two doses, and the Johnson and Johnson a little less effective, but a single dose and no refrigeration, is coming. 

    I'm happy that you won't need to get your dose(s) as you await your Chinese vaccine.

    Me, I'm on deck for mine, just waiting for an available slot.


    Meanwhile,

    https://www.aspi.org.au/report/trigger-warning

    Trigger warning. The CCP’s coordinated information effort to discredit the BBC


    Of course, you are in agreement with the CCP, aren't you.

    I wish that the CCP/PRC didn't make it so easy to hate on them, but, there you are, China meddling in the affairs of others again, because free speech everywhere but China.

    So, after a year of killing off a half million Americans and crashing the economy the U.S. (along with Russia, China and Britain) comes up with a vaccine (with no plans on how to distribute it) -- and you claim we did a good job?      You would have to be brainwashed to believe that nonsense.

    And, the BBC (which is normally a trusted source) has been trashing China ever since they shut down the UK/US effort to stir revolt in Hong Kong.  And yes, China has had enough of their propaganda.   I'm not sure why that makes China the bad guy.
  • Reply 75 of 76
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,083member
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
    The Biden Administration considers China a national security risk, and they will work to mitigate that. 

    That's all that matters. You seem unable to comprehend that China is a National Security risk, and that puts in in denial. 

    But again, it matters not what you or I think.
    He does?   Despite the fact he (correctly) calls them a "competitor"?
    You continue living in Trump's alternate reality.  And, like him, just make stuff up,

    It doesn't even make sense that China would position themselves as a military threat to the U.S.   They need the U.S. to achieve their ultimate goal:   "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations".  

    Trump saw that.  But to him "Competitor" is no different from "enemy".  So he went to his old stand-by "National Security Threat".   And, as usual, the fools bought his con.
     "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations"
    You have been the victim of China's propaganda. 

    You really haven't a clue of what China is about in the world, nor the U.S. responsibility to maintain order, do you?

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2021/02/11/in-the-south-china-sea-its-meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss/

    The Biden Administration is well aware of the threat of China to the world.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-enlists-allies-to-counter-chinas-technology-push-11614524400

    "President Biden portrays U.S. relations with China as a clash of values: democracy vs. autocracy.

    But his rhetoric obscures the administration’s more pragmatic approach of cobbling together groups of countries to work jointly on technology. The goal is to stay ahead of China in semiconductors, artificial intelligence and other advances that are expected to define the economy and military of the future.

    Preliminary conversations with U.S. allies have begun, though the effort is expected to take months, said senior administration officials.

    The strategy has both offensive and defensive components. By combining efforts, the U.S. and its allies can vastly outspend China, whose research-and-development budget now nearly matches the U.S. The alliances can also coordinate policies to deny China the technologies it needs to try to become a global leader".


    I'm the victim of reality.
    You are an ideologue caught in the web of Chump's con game.

    But, the good news is:  From this post it is good to see you getting away from that ludicrous "National Security" bullshit and admitting what is really going on:   China is advancing enough economically, technically and politically to soon challenge western hegemony.  And, we're scared.

    THAT is reality.
    The question is:  What, if anything, are we going to do about it?
    ... I find it unlikely that smear campaigns built on lies and nationalistic false pride will get us where we would like to be.
    LOL,

    So you're okay with the rise of authoritarianism? I'm not, and I don't see why the West should assist China into becoming a greater military threat.

    Let me pose another question for you:
    While the U.S. sinks hundreds of billions into F35's and Aircraft Carrier groups,  China is vaccinating much of the world against the Corona Pandemic -- while the U.S. refuses to share its vaccines even with its closest neighbor and largest trading partner Mexico.  

    So, while the U.S. continues to build military might, China continues to build friendships around the world.
    Some would call that "Vaccine Diplomacy" a threat to the U.S.

    I say it is the U.S. who is the threat -- building and deploying weapons of mass destruction  -- while withholding lifesaving medicines from poorer countries.

    What do you say?  Who is the bigger threat to the world?  The one deploying vaccines or the one deploying weapons of mass destruction?


    Biden not considering sharing Covid vaccine with Mexico

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/01/biden-mexico-covid-vaccine-sharing-471939




    LOL,

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/vaccines-coronavirus-china-herd-immunity/2021/01/29/405d1070-5eb9-11eb-a177-7765f29a9524_story.html

    China had a head start on coronavirus vaccinations. It’s now falling behind the West.


    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/01/third-time-s-charm-brazil-scales-back-efficacy-claims-covid-19-vaccine-china

    "In the third in a series of conflicting announcements about a Chinese-made COVID-19 vaccine candidate, Brazilian researchers reported today that the results of their efficacy trial were less impressive than they claimed last week. When analyzed by stricter criteria than used earlier, the vaccine’s efficacy against all forms of COVID-19, including mild cases, dropped from about 78% to 50%."


    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-announce-merck-will-help-manufacture-johnson-johnson-s-coronavirus-n1259262

    WASHINGTON — President Joe Biden will announce Tuesday that Merck & Co. will help manufacture Johnson & Johnson’s single-shot coronavirus vaccine, a senior administration official confirmed to NBC News.

    "The agreement could boost supply of the vaccine, which is being delivered to states this week after gaining federal approval for distribution to the public.

    The deal between the two major pharmaceutical companies, first reported by The Washington Post, was brokered by the Biden administration after officials found out that Johnson & Johnson had fallen behind in the production of its vaccine.

    The partnership will involve two Merck facilities, one of which will produce the vaccine while the other carries out the last phase of the manufacturing process, the Post reported."

    I'm very happy that the Biden Administration is fulfilling its promise to the American People, whereas China is more interested in "vaccine diplomacy" than vaccinating its own people.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-25/india-beats-china-at-its-own-game-in-vaccine-diplomacy-battle

    "India’s huge capacity to make coronavirus vaccines is helping the country take on China in the battle to gain political influence across the developing world.

    At the same time, India was struggling to contain one of the world’s worst outbreaks of the virus, with nearly 100,000 cases a day, while a nationwide lockdown sent its economy into recession for the first time in 25 years.

    But Chinese pharmaceutical companies have been reticent in sharing details of their pivotal vaccine trials crucial for building public trust around the world, and new domestic outbreaks reinforced the urgency of inoculating China’s own 1.4 billion population, a task that could take years. Meanwhile, India sent millions of doses to neighboring Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, allowing them to begin vaccinations earlier than if they had waited for Chinese doses."

    You are so much a tool of China's influence campaigns...


    Can you spell "strawman"?
    China lost less than 5,000 people.
    We lost over 500,000 people.

    So, you want to bring up a strawman -- which is even more ridiculous because, while we hoard our vaccines China is vaccinating the world -- which they can do because they controlled the virus long ago -- back in May or June of last year.

    So, who's the tool?   It looks like you are -- of the right wing hate campaign.

    All you have is hate.   And Google to find ways to justify your hate.
    Oh FFS,

    The U.S. fucking up the COVID by not being an Authoritarian power, and then having the capability to provide it's entire population with vaccinations, by the end of May at that, while China drags out its own vaccinations, so that they can convince other countries that Authoritarianism is great. 

    That line worked for you, but I doubt that countries will roll over to China's ambitions for a relatively small amount of vaccine. Good luck on China providing Brazil with enough for its entire population of 211 million.

    I'll be speaking more about China's militarism, as the opportunities arise. That you have your head stuck in the sand doesn't mean that China's aggressions don't exist, and certainly don't give any indication that China is peaceful.

    EDIT;

    Found this story on Brazil:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/coronavirus-brazil-vaccine-variant-bolsonaro/2021/03/01/1a03d52a-7a12-11eb-a976-c028a4215c78_story.html

    They have a Trump clone running the country, so getting worse, rather than better.

    So, you are saying that a democracy is unable to protect its people?
    Then you ignore the fact that China is vaccinating the world while the U.S. can't vaccinate itself even while it hoards the vaccines that others are begging for.   But, the good part is that many of them will get Chinese vaccines.

    But, you still hate China because it doesn't do things like the U.S.    Got it.
    The U.S. has two, and soon three, very effective vaccines, Pfizer and Moderna needing refrigeration and two doses, and the Johnson and Johnson a little less effective, but a single dose and no refrigeration, is coming. 

    I'm happy that you won't need to get your dose(s) as you await your Chinese vaccine.

    Me, I'm on deck for mine, just waiting for an available slot.


    Meanwhile,

    https://www.aspi.org.au/report/trigger-warning

    Trigger warning. The CCP’s coordinated information effort to discredit the BBC


    Of course, you are in agreement with the CCP, aren't you.

    I wish that the CCP/PRC didn't make it so easy to hate on them, but, there you are, China meddling in the affairs of others again, because free speech everywhere but China.

    So, after a year of killing off a half million Americans and crashing the economy the U.S. (along with Russia, China and Britain) comes up with a vaccine (with no plans on how to distribute it) -- and you claim we did a good job?      You would have to be brainwashed to believe that nonsense.

    And, the BBC (which is normally a trusted source) has been trashing China ever since they shut down the UK/US effort to stir revolt in Hong Kong.  And yes, China has had enough of their propaganda.   I'm not sure why that makes China the bad guy.
    LOL!

    You seem to hate everyone in the U.S., including all of us Liberals and Progressives that also are quite aware of China's human rights violations.

    It is hard to imagine anyone that is so pro China, and as anti-American as you have been, not acknowledging that the Biden Administration had to create a vaccine distribution plan from scratch, and that in fact, the U.S. will almost certainly vaccinate its entire adult population earlier than any other major nation, including China. 

    It's also true that the U.S. has rejoined WHO, and with that, are now part of a growing consensus that the Chinese have not been forthcoming in allowing the research to determine how the pandemic started.

    https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/COVID OPEN LETTER FINAL 030421 (1).pdf

    "Finding the origins of SARS-CoV-2 is critically important to both better addressing the current pandemic and reducing the risks of future ones. Unfortunately, well over a year after the initial outbreak the origins of the pandemic remain unknown.

    As scientists, social scientists, and science communicators who have been independently and collectively looking into the origins of the COVID-19 pandemic, we believe it essential that all hypotheses about the origins of the pandemic be thoroughly examined and full access to all necessary resources be provided without regard to political or other sensitivities.

    Based on our analysis, and as confirmed by the global study convened by the World Health Organization (WHO) and Chinese authorities, there is as yet no evidence demonstrating a fully natural origin of this virus. The zoonosis hypothesis, largely based on patterns of previous zoonosis events, is only one of a number of possible SARS-CoV-2 origins, alongside the research-related accident hypothesis.

    Although the “collaborative” process of discovery mandated by the World Health Assembly in May 2020 was meant to enable a full examination of the origins of the pandemic, we believe that structural limitations built into this endeavor make it all but impossible for the WHO-convened mission to realize this aspiration.

    In particular, we wish to raise public awareness of the fact that half of the joint team convened under that process is made of Chinese citizens whose scientific independence may be limited, that international members of the joint team had to rely on information the Chinese authorities chose to share with them, and that any joint team report must be approved by both the Chinese and international members of the joint team.

    We have therefore reached the conclusion that the joint team did not have the mandate, the independence, or the necessary accesses to carry out a full and unrestricted investigation into all the relevant SARS-CoV-2 origin hypotheses - whether natural spillover or laboratory/research- related incident.

    We are also concerned that the joint team’s work has been inaccurately reported by the media as an independent investigation whose conclusions reflect those of the WHO. The February 9, 2021 Wuhan joint press conference was a good example of this misunderstanding. Although the findings were those of the joint team, they were widely reported as representing the WHO itself."


    What is China covering up wrt the pandemic? Ah, just another day in a authoritarian Totalitarian regime.

    Just another case of China not doing what it promised to a world organization.

    I'm done here, until the next time anyway. 
  • Reply 76 of 76
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,272member
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    FFS

    Huawei is just trying to use its remaining stock of Kirin 9000 to generate the most revenue, since TMSC fabbed a limited number, something on the order of 8 million SOC's, before the trade ban went into effect. HiSilicon is a fabless chip designer, depending on U.S. design tools, and TMSC, and without those Western technologies, is DOA.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    So?  This high end smart phone is designed to run Harmony OS rather than Android?

    If Google were smart, they would pressure the U.S. government to end these silly, useless sanctions immediately before any more alternative OS's enter the market to compete against their OS.   Google is an American company with an American product that is being punished by these silly, worthless sanctions that accomplish nothing and benefit nobody.

    Huawei was happy to support this U.S. company and its product.   It is we who forced them to abandon American products and develop their own.

    And, the same is going on in the world of chips:   while the auto market is hobbled by a shortage of chips, the Chinese have been forced to develop their own to compete against American backed products.   They didn't want to have to do that.  But we forced them to compete against us.

    Hopefully both countries can soon return to mutually beneficial sanity.
    Agreed completely with you on this. Except for the OS part, because it still runs a flavor of Android, i.e. EMUI without Google's play store and core services, not Harmony OS. It is quite possible that Huawei may not show any interest in using Google's play store/core services anymore and are in a position to push their own app store/core services going forward. Based on the reviews that I have read in GSMArena, Huawei's Android (with EMUI skin) phones without Google play store/core services have progressed from "unusable" at the beginning (2 years ago) to "very difficult to use with many compromises" about 1 year ago to "usable with limitations" now. The progress is significant and they may not look back (at incorporating Goolgle's play store/core services) at all. Not sure about their plan to move away from EMUI to Harmony OS though.

    I'm not sure how many people would want to buy a premium phone with a junk OS.
    They are moving to Harmony for a reason.  Hopefully, that reason is taken away before that happens.  It benefits no one for them to compete with American products -- which they are obviously capable of doing.

    I suspect they are simply warning the U.S. government where this can and will go if they don't make https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/orrections.

    Google needs to speak up soon to protect their product and their company.  But, if they do, heads in the echo chamber will be exploding.  So, I suspect this is being handled behind the scenes.


    Harmony OS is nothing but a fork of Android OS;

    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/


    "To hear Huawei tell the story, HarmonyOS is an original in-house creation—a defiant act that will let the company break free of American software influence. Huawei's OS announcement in 2019 got big, splashy articles in the national media. CNN called HarmonyOS "a rival to Android," and Richard Yu, the CEO of Huawei’s consumer business group, told the outlet that HarmonyOS "is completely different from Android and iOS." Huawei President of Consumer Software Wang Chenglu repeated these claims just last month, saying (through translation), "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android, nor is it a copy of iOS."

    Horseshit...
    I participated in that thread and brought up questions that no one has been able to answer. 

    Time will tell but calling HarmonyOS a fork of Android isn't really seeing the bigger picture IMO. 

    I've actually seen the HDC presentation of HarmonyOS and based on that and the ARS article, there is A LOT that is still to be revealed/clarified. 

    First off, the Android connection was known late last year. That was nothing new. 

    What I can tell you is that Huawei stated there are over 14,000 APIs in HarmonyOS and over a 1,000 modules. As far as I can tell they are NOT Android APIs. Huawei even said it had more APIs than Android. 

    HarmonyOS is also 'multi kernel' and has a kernel abstraction layer. I know of at least three kernels that can be used with the OS. Eventually it will use just one kernel. 

    HarmonyOS has also achieved higher security certifications than Android. 

    As for the development state of HarmonyOS there are also questions that need to be answered.

    If you only base your opinion on the ARS article you would think it was in an embryonic state. However, one of the largest electrical appliance companies on the planet (Midea) announced HarmonyOS integration for a suite of products at the same HDC presentation last year.

    https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/11/11/huawei-harmonyos-midea-smart-home-products/

    It is shipping on cars and other companies have announced support for it too. HarmonyOS has been shipping on Huawei TVs, routers and as a kernel component of its LiteOS (watches) for over a year. 

    I have no idea why ARS didn't download the beta IDE which is available.

    Look and feel. HarmonyOS will initially run something like EMUI 11. That makes all the sense in the world but Huawei has already made it clear that the look and feel will change soon. 

    Of course EMUI is more than a skin for Android. For example it home to a plethora of features including the Huawei AI runtime. 

    Looking at all of this makes it look very different to Android even if there is a connection at the lowest level. 

    Huawei says it wants to have HarmonyOS on up to 400 million devices this year and today said it hoped to have HarmonyOS on the Mate X2 by April. Could the ARS article have missed something? How could what they describe possibly deploy on a handset in two months? 

    By now, you should at least be seeing that something in the ARS or Huawei take isn't matching up very well. 

    Perhaps there are more questions than answers at this point, so time will tell. 

    As for 'forks', we may be talking of 'fork' in the sense of iOS/MacOS and Darwin/BSD/Mach. Or maybe we won't.

    Why not just wait and see? 
    You believe what Huawei tells you. Fine, but the linked article shows none of what you state. 

    So, we can "wait and see", but until then, Harmony OS is demonstrably just Android OS, with new branding for the China market.
    I believe both and I believe none. That's why it's better not to draw absolute conclusions at this point. 

    Much less a conclusion that HarmonyOS is 'demonstrably just Android OS with new branding'. 

    We very much know that is NOT the case. Don't confuse certain elements of both systems as being the entire system. 

    What you can't do is believe only side when they haven't even looked at the system in its entirety. 

    At the very least Ron Amadeo should have looked beyond where he focused his attention. He apparently didn't download the beta IDE, didn't ask Huawei for feedback, didn't watch the three hour HDC keynote where the head scientist of HarmonyOS development ran through a whole bunch of features and topics which clearly make HarmonyOS a different kind of system to Android. It's also crystal clear that the Chinese version (and its corresponding frameworks, documentation etc) is where the focus is at this point. I'm not surprised it was difficult to find answers to some questions. 

    I'm grateful he took the time to dig into some of the code but it's clear he could have done far more than what he did.

    As I noted above (in the linked article) there is a roadmap for HarmonyOS and its progress is currently on schedule (perhaps even ahead of schedule). 
    I got huge laughs out of you trolling Arstechnica, because you use the same vague, laughable arguments. Bringing up GPU Turbo is rich, like it's some sort of technical achievement, when in truth, it is just gaslighting to cover up Huawei's limited graphics. 

    You are the victim of propaganda, or suffering the Stockholm Syndrome. 

    I have to say good day to you, because I can only suffer the smell of bullshit for only so long.

    In the end, even if you were even the slightest bit correct (which you aren't, not in the least) it wouldn't matter for two reasons:

    By forcing Huawei to produce their own OS and their own chips, (which they are quite capable of doing) the U.S. is cutting its own throat by forcing Huawei to compete where they don't want to compete.   It is America, American companies and Americans who will suffer from this misguided and foolish policy.  Hopefully it is corrected soon before it can do more harm.

    But, in addition, because Android was copied from iOS, it would be fitting IF Harmony had indeed copied Android.




    Ok, it's Enderle, but most sane and balanced folks agree with you on the core problems here. 

    https://techspective.net/2021/02/22/the-collateral-damage-to-the-us-for-the-war-against-huawei/

    And when technology is in place, things can be done with it:

    https://www.huaweicentral.com/emui-11-feature-transfer-huge-files-with-flash-file-transfer/
    The "collateral damage" to U.S. companies is at worst, short run.

    The U.S. continues to restructure trade with China in order to create a more secure supply chain, prioritize economic resilience and National Security interests, and strengthen ties with historic alliances.  

    Perhaps China should consider that they are perceived, fairly, as a threat to the Western rules of order established after WWII. This is all on General Secretary Xi Jinping and his quest to create a greater Authoritarian China. Huawei is part and parcel of that with their surveillance systems in the Xinjiang region suppressing the human rights of the Uighur minority. Seems fair that the West would desire to source telecom from democracies, but blocking semiconductor tech is just prudent from a National Security standpoint. Don't want all of those TMSC parts ending up in China's weapons systems, especially those threatening Taiwan.

    Oh, and for the record, Taiwan doesn't consider itself part of China, and for good reason.
    Poppycock! 

    Where is the national security threat in a Kirin processor or Huawei handset?

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to back up US national security allegations? 

    I'll tell you. Nowhere!

    Where is the evidence to show the US is trying to destroy Huawei for protectionist reasons? 

    I'll tell you. EVERYWHERE! 

    Starting with a slew of tweets by Donald Trump on Chinese advances in technology and the very real threat of China overtaking the US. "not on my watch" he said. Then William Barr made one of most 'running scared' speeches I've ever heard. 

    In fact there has been an endless stream of similar comments from US officials. 

    The problem is, the vast majority of US technology interests are against the action. 

    That culminated with trade associations representing over 1,000 US semi conductor companies writing to the president and 
    warning of the harm his actions were causing - short, mid and long term. 

    LOL!

    Like I stated; this is all on China and Xi Jinping, and Huawei's close ties to to the CCP are why it is in the crosshairs. Meanwhile, the West will continue to disengage from China. 

    Laugh all you want but you didn't answer my questions. 

    I'll add another for you. What close ties to the CCP? 

    Or are you referring to the ties that every single Chinese company has to the CCP?

    I have seen nothing to support your claims. 

    But please answer my other questions before scurrying off to another point. 

    Where is the national security threat in a Huawei handset?

    Surely routers would pose an at least theoretical threat right? Especially given that the they are an NSA favourite. 

    But guess what, you can buy a Huawei router in the US right now. No issues. 


    I need not answer any of your questions, since you have never been able to acknowledge the fact that telecom infrastructure is a National Security concern, and having a company with close ties to your primary adversary is reason enough to ban them from said infrastructure.

    That President Trump went further than that is not my problem, but I doubt that the Biden Administration is going to role back trade restrictions on a known provider of surveillance technology to the the Chinese Government in use against the Uighur minorities in the Xinjiang region. That's 100% on Huawei for being involved, and if it isn't, then it proves that Huawei is in fact 100% at the beck and call of the CCP.

    Which is it? It's one or the other.
    Sorry. That's more poppycock and you should answer my question as you just threw telecom infrastructure in there for good measure which, ironically, supports my point. 

    Since when does a handset constitute telecom infrastructure? Does a router constitute that? 

    The US can do what it likes when it comes to what goes on within its borders.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the case though as it has used extraterritorial powers to deliberately and directly affect companies and countries that are not governed by the US. 

    On top of that, it has inflicted untold harm on its own semiconductor industry too. 

    And now China has passed laws to enable it to prosecute companies which find themselves affected by US 'sanctions'. 

    Guess who is sitting squarely in the middle of all this? TSMC! And hundreds more. 

    Pandora's Box has been opened and someone didn't think things through very well. What a mess! 

    Handsets are not and never have been a national security issue. 


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54455112

    Not just my opinion, but it's obvious that Huawei is tightly connected to the Communist Party. You disagree.

    ...

    FedEx has close ties to the Republican Party.  
    Should China ban them like you want to ban Huawei?

    Or, is your's a double standard?
    Nice straw man...but nothing to do with what is going on with Huawei.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/huawei-germany-court-case-privacy/

    I could post links for hours about threats from China, and you would still be showing fealty to Huawei and China.

    My fealty goes to reality.
    And sorry, but it's not a strawman, its a comparison -- which you dodged.
    No, not a comparison. How about posting links that support your POV, instead of just posting nonsense?

    I'll post my response as the link below;

    https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/us-united-states/cic/Policy-on-Political-Contributions.pdf

    Sounds to me as if FedEx is no different than Apple; donations to both parties, so you are outright lying.

    You're lying isn't news to anyone here though, is it, or maybe you're just deluded, and believe you're telling the truth. How much you and Donald Trump are the same in that respect no longer surprises me.

    Sorry, but, you admitted that FedEx contributes to the Republican Party.  So, by your logic that makes them as "guilty" as Huawei for having ties to the Communist party.

    Why do you condemn one but not the other?

    You say you go by "facts" -- but there are no facts, no evidence, to support Chump's war on Huawei -- except that they are the world leaders in 5G technology.  And to him, and apparently you, that makes them a threat and you look for ways to condemn them.   Phony ways.  But that's how hatred works.  Those who hate look for reasons why they should hate.

    For myself, I don't hate Huawei for being a world leader.   I would like to catch up to them rather than tear them down.  
    LOL!

    You keep on believing whatever the hell you want, but thankfully, the Biden Administration is going to continue to move away from China.

    Biden is smart enough to know that you can't go off half cocked standing on hate filled fabrications.
    He also knows that China is a full blown member of the world community and he needs them as much as they need him.
    He also knows that nobody wins wars -- whether hot or cold
    He also knows that China is and will be a fierce competitor (not an enemy).

    Things will smooth out without the constant drumbeat of propaganda fueled hate and fear designed to frighten and rally "the base".
    LOL.

    You keep believing your own bullshit. 

    Here's today's China news;

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-tech/biden-on-track-to-apply-trump-era-rule-targeting-chinese-tech-supply-chain-concerns-idUSKBN2AQ2PL

    From another article:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/Huawei-calls-for-talks-with-Biden-administration-on-trade-ban

    ""As commerce secretary ... I would use the full tool kit at my disposal to protect America and our networks from Chinese interference or any back-door influence in our network, whether that be Huawei, ZTE or any other company," the Rhode Island governor testified at her Senate confirmation hearing.

    Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    Remember that when your little pal Avonb7 denies National Security implications of Huawei Telecom, he too is bullshitting himself.

    What Huawei states, not necessarily accurate;

    ""There are certain things that need to be protected from a national security perspective, certain technologies and so on -- absolutely, we support that and agree with that," Danks said. "But I think if we are under better, detailed scrutiny of what Huawei is purchasing, the components and chips, and things that we buy from the U.S., I'm sure we'll find that those don't merit national security concerns."

    But of course, many countries disagree with Huawei's assessment of its own risk to national security.

    and finally, this, which Huawei is deeply implicated in;

     

    LOL...  You continue to shoot yourself in your own foot.  
    You claim that:
    "Asked specifically whether she would keep Huawei, China's top telecom equipment supplier, on the list, Raimondo says she would "review the policy ... consult with industry, consult with our allies and make an assessment as to what is best for American national and economic security."

    is a continuation of Chump's tactics of lies and intimidation that pretty much nobody but the intimidated and brainwashed has ever bought onto.
    You obviously don't understand diplomatic speak, "what is best for American nationals and and economic security", but sure, why not wait and see what happens.

    I'm pretty sure that your last sentence is just a continuation of your personal bias, and I can't see that will change, and given that you are so poorly informed, I don't see where it's important that I attempt to change that.


    One day, the impact of US extraterritorial sanctions and outright bullying will finally hit home. 

    It is already too late because everyone and their dog is already moving to free themselves of US dependency wherever that may lie. A line was crossed and now there's no going back.

    The US tried to - unilaterally - cripple the global supply chain with scant regard for the countries and companies that form part of it.

    https://ecfr.eu/article/commentary_2020_the_year_of_economic_coercion_under_trump/?amp
    You fail to keep up with current events in foreign affairs, or national security, so you, by your own bias, are limiting your information. Note that what you think and say, will have no impact in the real world, nor will I, but at least I'm making an attempt at living with reality.

    For the record, the West is disgusted with China's human rights violations, tired of China's bullying, and wary of China's authoritarianism, so the Biden Administration is being welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Whatever faults you find with the U.S., pale in comparison to what is happening within China, and with China's foreign policy and
    militarization.

    Here's a link to Australia's problems with China;

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/why-china-is-falling-out-with-australia-and-allies-quicktake

    "

    7. Will Joe Biden change things?

    "China sees the Trump administration’s policies, such as its trade war, as so extreme that they bordered on reckless. Party officials in Beijing think those policies are unlikely to remain under the new U.S. president, who’s viewed as more traditional. That could then lead Australia, as a close U.S. ally, to dial down what China sees as hostility triggered by anti-communist ideology. Still, there is strong bipartisan support in Washington for a tough line on China. Biden was vice president during Barack Obama’s geopolitical “pivot to Asia,” which sought to counter China’s growing influence in the region, and his support for multilateralism could promote an even more united front against Beijing."

    The Biden Administration will do things differently than the Trump Administration, but it will not be placating China.



    Sorry, but you're living in Trump's alternate reality.   Not the real one.   He's a conman and you got conned!

    He needed an enemy besides Hillary and Joe to rally his cult and stir up their fear and anger -- so he chose China.   And, he did what he does best:  started a smear campaign.

    He used the same argument and the same evidence (none) to keep out those Mexican mom's & their kids as he used for Huawei:  "They're a national security risk".   What happened was:  we let him get away with the lie about Mexican mom's, so he tried it against China -- and the fools took the bait.

    Biden said it accurately:   China is a competitor (and so is Huawei)
    But to Trump:   Competitor is the same as enemy.  To him, there is no difference.
    The Biden Administration considers China a national security risk, and they will work to mitigate that. 

    That's all that matters. You seem unable to comprehend that China is a National Security risk, and that puts in in denial. 

    But again, it matters not what you or I think.
    He does?   Despite the fact he (correctly) calls them a "competitor"?
    You continue living in Trump's alternate reality.  And, like him, just make stuff up,

    It doesn't even make sense that China would position themselves as a military threat to the U.S.   They need the U.S. to achieve their ultimate goal:   "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations".  

    Trump saw that.  But to him "Competitor" is no different from "enemy".  So he went to his old stand-by "National Security Threat".   And, as usual, the fools bought his con.
     "peace and prosperity for their citizens and security from imperialist nations"
    You have been the victim of China's propaganda. 

    You really haven't a clue of what China is about in the world, nor the U.S. responsibility to maintain order, do you?

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2021/02/11/in-the-south-china-sea-its-meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss/

    The Biden Administration is well aware of the threat of China to the world.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-enlists-allies-to-counter-chinas-technology-push-11614524400

    "President Biden portrays U.S. relations with China as a clash of values: democracy vs. autocracy.

    But his rhetoric obscures the administration’s more pragmatic approach of cobbling together groups of countries to work jointly on technology. The goal is to stay ahead of China in semiconductors, artificial intelligence and other advances that are expected to define the economy and military of the future.

    Preliminary conversations with U.S. allies have begun, though the effort is expected to take months, said senior administration officials.

    The strategy has both offensive and defensive components. By combining efforts, the U.S. and its allies can vastly outspend China, whose research-and-development budget now nearly matches the U.S. The alliances can also coordinate policies to deny China the technologies it needs to try to become a global leader".


    I'm the victim of reality.
    You are an ideologue caught in the web of Chump's con game.

    But, the good news is:  From this post it is good to see you getting away from that ludicrous "National Security" bullshit and admitting what is really going on:   China is advancing enough economically, technically and politically to soon challenge western hegemony.  And, we're scared.

    THAT is reality.
    The question is:  What, if anything, are we going to do about it?
    ... I find it unlikely that smear campaigns built on lies and nationalistic false pride will get us where we would like to be.
    LOL,

    So you're okay with the rise of authoritarianism? I'm not, and I don't see why the West should assist China into becoming a greater military threat.

    Let me pose another question for you:
    While the U.S. sinks hundreds of billions into F35's and Aircraft Carrier groups,  China is vaccinating much of the world against the Corona Pandemic -- while the U.S. refuses to share its vaccines even with its closest neighbor and largest trading partner Mexico.  

    So, while the U.S. continues to build military might, China continues to build friendships around the world.
    Some would call that "Vaccine Diplomacy" a threat to the U.S.

    I say it is the U.S. who is the threat -- building and deploying weapons of mass destruction  -- while withholding lifesaving medicines from poorer countries.

    What do you say?  Who is the bigger threat to the world?  The one deploying vaccines or the one deploying weapons of mass destruction?


    Biden not considering sharing Covid vaccine with Mexico

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/01/biden-mexico-covid-vaccine-sharing-471939




    LOL,

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/vaccines-coronavirus-china-herd-immunity/2021/01/29/405d1070-5eb9-11eb-a177-7765f29a9524_story.html

    China had a head start on coronavirus vaccinations. It’s now falling behind the West.


    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/01/third-time-s-charm-brazil-scales-back-efficacy-claims-covid-19-vaccine-china

    "In the third in a series of conflicting announcements about a Chinese-made COVID-19 vaccine candidate, Brazilian researchers reported today that the results of their efficacy trial were less impressive than they claimed last week. When analyzed by stricter criteria than used earlier, the vaccine’s efficacy against all forms of COVID-19, including mild cases, dropped from about 78% to 50%."


    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-announce-merck-will-help-manufacture-johnson-johnson-s-coronavirus-n1259262

    WASHINGTON — President Joe Biden will announce Tuesday that Merck & Co. will help manufacture Johnson & Johnson’s single-shot coronavirus vaccine, a senior administration official confirmed to NBC News.

    "The agreement could boost supply of the vaccine, which is being delivered to states this week after gaining federal approval for distribution to the public.

    The deal between the two major pharmaceutical companies, first reported by The Washington Post, was brokered by the Biden administration after officials found out that Johnson & Johnson had fallen behind in the production of its vaccine.

    The partnership will involve two Merck facilities, one of which will produce the vaccine while the other carries out the last phase of the manufacturing process, the Post reported."

    I'm very happy that the Biden Administration is fulfilling its promise to the American People, whereas China is more interested in "vaccine diplomacy" than vaccinating its own people.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-25/india-beats-china-at-its-own-game-in-vaccine-diplomacy-battle

    "India’s huge capacity to make coronavirus vaccines is helping the country take on China in the battle to gain political influence across the developing world.

    At the same time, India was struggling to contain one of the world’s worst outbreaks of the virus, with nearly 100,000 cases a day, while a nationwide lockdown sent its economy into recession for the first time in 25 years.

    But Chinese pharmaceutical companies have been reticent in sharing details of their pivotal vaccine trials crucial for building public trust around the world, and new domestic outbreaks reinforced the urgency of inoculating China’s own 1.4 billion population, a task that could take years. Meanwhile, India sent millions of doses to neighboring Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, allowing them to begin vaccinations earlier than if they had waited for Chinese doses."

    You are so much a tool of China's influence campaigns...


    Can you spell "strawman"?
    China lost less than 5,000 people.
    We lost over 500,000 people.

    So, you want to bring up a strawman -- which is even more ridiculous because, while we hoard our vaccines China is vaccinating the world -- which they can do because they controlled the virus long ago -- back in May or June of last year.

    So, who's the tool?   It looks like you are -- of the right wing hate campaign.

    All you have is hate.   And Google to find ways to justify your hate.
    Oh FFS,

    The U.S. fucking up the COVID by not being an Authoritarian power, and then having the capability to provide it's entire population with vaccinations, by the end of May at that, while China drags out its own vaccinations, so that they can convince other countries that Authoritarianism is great. 

    That line worked for you, but I doubt that countries will roll over to China's ambitions for a relatively small amount of vaccine. Good luck on China providing Brazil with enough for its entire population of 211 million.

    I'll be speaking more about China's militarism, as the opportunities arise. That you have your head stuck in the sand doesn't mean that China's aggressions don't exist, and certainly don't give any indication that China is peaceful.

    EDIT;

    Found this story on Brazil:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/coronavirus-brazil-vaccine-variant-bolsonaro/2021/03/01/1a03d52a-7a12-11eb-a976-c028a4215c78_story.html

    They have a Trump clone running the country, so getting worse, rather than better.

    So, you are saying that a democracy is unable to protect its people?
    Then you ignore the fact that China is vaccinating the world while the U.S. can't vaccinate itself even while it hoards the vaccines that others are begging for.   But, the good part is that many of them will get Chinese vaccines.

    But, you still hate China because it doesn't do things like the U.S.    Got it.
    The U.S. has two, and soon three, very effective vaccines, Pfizer and Moderna needing refrigeration and two doses, and the Johnson and Johnson a little less effective, but a single dose and no refrigeration, is coming. 

    I'm happy that you won't need to get your dose(s) as you await your Chinese vaccine.

    Me, I'm on deck for mine, just waiting for an available slot.


    Meanwhile,

    https://www.aspi.org.au/report/trigger-warning

    Trigger warning. The CCP’s coordinated information effort to discredit the BBC


    Of course, you are in agreement with the CCP, aren't you.

    I wish that the CCP/PRC didn't make it so easy to hate on them, but, there you are, China meddling in the affairs of others again, because free speech everywhere but China.

    So, after a year of killing off a half million Americans and crashing the economy the U.S. (along with Russia, China and Britain) comes up with a vaccine (with no plans on how to distribute it) -- and you claim we did a good job?      You would have to be brainwashed to believe that nonsense.

    And, the BBC (which is normally a trusted source) has been trashing China ever since they shut down the UK/US effort to stir revolt in Hong Kong.  And yes, China has had enough of their propaganda.   I'm not sure why that makes China the bad guy.
    LOL!

    You seem to hate everyone in the U.S., including all of us Liberals and Progressives that also are quite aware of China's human rights violations.

    LOL...  No,  I love my country.
    That's why I detest lies, propaganda disinformation, scare tactics and craziness coming from the crazies -- whether they are far left or far right.  Either way, they are damaging to this great nation.
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