Arizona voters overwhelmingly support App Fairness bill

Posted:
in General Discussion
As Arizona nears a final vote that could force changes on the App Store, a somewhat loaded survey of public opinion shows 69% of residents back the bill.

App Store


Despite Apple's increased lobbying, residents in Arizona are reportedly very strongly in favor of the state's HB2005 proposals to break up App Store payment monopolies.

According to a poll conducted by research firm Data Orbital, 69% of people expressed support. "Only 11.8% were undecided," says Data Orbital, "which is a small percentage for a legislative issue."

"Arizona voters have clear views on Big Tech, and the majority want action in the form of greater regulation," said Data Orbital's George Khalaf in a statement. "Big Tech is in the news more and more whether it be for data and privacy concerns, its role in elections, censorship, or its general influence over our daily lives and activities."

"Voters want to see more fairness and the level playing field that HB 2005 seeks to achieve with regards to app payments," he continued. "For lawmakers in both parties considering the nuances at play in this issue, these results speak clearly. Constituents want immediate action taken against Big Tech and HB2005 is a major way to do it."

The footer information appears to be all that people were told of the App Store issues before being asked to judge.
The footer information appears to be all that people were told of the App Store issues before being asked to judge.


The poll also asked about whether large technology firms have "too much power and influence over our lives." Overall, 80.6% of respondents agreed, with 62.2% saying "strongly."

Similarly, asked if such firms as Apple and Google "are large monopoly companies that put their own interest before the needs of small businesses and individuals," 77.4% agreed.

According to the press release issued by Data Orbital, the 550 people surveyed were given background information that did not discuss issues of security, privacy, or how Google and Apple get paid for hosting their app stores.

Apple has not responded to the survey, however it has previously commented that the App Store system protects users, and helps developers.

"We believe in thriving and competitive markets where any great idea can flourish," an Apple spokesperson said. "The App Store has been an engine of success for app developers, in part because of the rigorous standards we have in place - applied fairly and equally to all developers - to protect customers from malware and to prevent rampant data collection without their consent."

Data Orbital's survey questions appear to have concentrated solely on the topics of choice, and of big business.

"For background, this bill would prohibit the app payment monopoly by introducing competition that would allow you to choose how you pay for app purchases? [sic]," said the pollsters. "For example, Uber allows you to choose how you pay for your ride versus game and dating apps where the consumer is forced to only use Apple and Google's payment system which also give Apple and Google all the user's data and charge 30%."

The pollsters only told respondents about the 30% commission. They did not relay that developers that are paid less than $1 million per year qualify for a 15% app commission on the App Store, nor how subscriptions that go longer than a year have a 15% commission, versus a 30% commission for that first year.

The poll was sponsored by the Coalition for App Fairness, which has been campaigning against Apple and Google App Store practices since September 2020. The coalition also essentially wrote the legislation.

The Coalition for App Fairness is a consortium of more than 40 developers. It includes Epic Games -- which is currently preparing to go to trial with Apple and Google.
«1

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 25
    rob53rob53 Posts: 2,496member
    If this passes I’d want to go after companies like Costco who only allow Visa. This is same as forcing Apple to allow other payment systems. Of course this will never happen. 
    spock1234jdb8167jony0watto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 25
    AshaAsha Posts: 1member

    Data Orbital's survey questions appear to have concentrated solely on the topics of choice, and of big business.

    "For background, this bill would prohibit the app payment monopoly by introducing competition that would allow you to choose how you pay for app purchases? [sic]," said the pollsters. "For example, Uber allows you to choose how you pay for your ride versus game and dating apps where the consumer is forced to only use Apple and Google's payment system which also give Apple and Google all the user's data and charge 30%."

    The pollsters only told respondents about the 30% commission. They did not relay that developers that are paid less than $1 million per year qualify for a 15% app commission on the App Store, nor how subscriptions that go longer than a year have a 15% commission, versus a 30% commission for that first year.

    The poll was sponsored by the Coalition for App Fairness, which has been campaigning against Apple and Google App Store practices since September 2020. The coalition also essentially wrote the legislation.

    The Coalition for App Fairness is a consortium of more than 40 developers. It includes Epic Games -- which is currently preparing to go to trial with Apple and Google.
    This 'conclusions' from this poll don't have much validity. The response to the phrasing of its questions, the cherry-picking of issues, the lumping of all "Big Tech" together doesn't have much to do with the specific issue at hand and look to be constructed intentionally by the Coalition to garner a predetermined result so they could generate a press release to put pressure on lawmakers and try to paint themselves in a good light.
    spock1234Beatsjdb8167chasmjony0watto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 25
    I’m fine with Apple ceasing to do business in Arizona. Maybe Apple has done a number on me, but I happen to like things the way they are in the Apple walled-garden.

    if I didn’t, I’d jump ship and move to Android (or whatever.)

    The fact that I CAN do that (admittedly with some annoying aspects of switching) kinda shows it’s not a true monopoly.
    rob53mark fearingjdb8167jony0watto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 25
    rob53rob53 Posts: 2,496member
    I think it’s time for Apple to go on the offense and stop being the nice guy. They need to determine who’s behind all these lawsuits and go after those people/companies. As we always say, follow the money!
    spock1234Beatsjony0watto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 25
    I’m fine with Apple ceasing to do business in Arizona. Maybe Apple has done a number on me, but I happen to like things the way they are in the Apple walled-garden.

    if I didn’t, I’d jump ship and move to Android (or whatever.)

    The fact that I CAN do that (admittedly with some annoying aspects of switching) kinda shows it’s not a true monopoly.
    Apple wouldn't cease doing business in Arizona or any other state for that matter.  Besides the bill would be a paper tiger without other states sponsoring similar legislation.  

    The claim is Apple has monopoly control over the App Store, not smartphones in general so your argument doesn't hold.  The availability of Android does not change Apple's control of the App Store.
  • Reply 6 of 25
    How will the law actually be written? Both Google and Apple provide consumer protections, security and privacy. Will the laws ensure that all payments systems provide this? Who will oversea these alternate payment systems? How will Arizona's law operate only within Arizona? Will the law only apply to mobile OSes and not to any other on-line platform?

    The Uber comparison is bogus - I'm being polite. Uber's nominal charge is 25%, but the incremental costs for drivers are much higher than the incremental costs for Apps. Plus Uber adds other fees. So Uber's net fee compared to the driver's gross profit is much higher than the 30% that Apple and Google charge. Apple also has 15% tiers, and a free tier, which applies to Uber and the vast majority of Apps.

    Finally Mobile OS payments are already open. We can trade stocks, do all our banking, use third party credits cards - all this with most secure convenience systems. In fact Apple Pay is virus (software or Covid-19) safe.

    Can Arizona write a law to improve upon this?
    spock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 25
    Gotta add:

    "more that 40 developers"??

    40/20,000,000 = .0002%
    spock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 25
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 2,422member
    I’m fine with Apple ceasing to do business in Arizona. Maybe Apple has done a number on me, but I happen to like things the way they are in the Apple walled-garden.

    if I didn’t, I’d jump ship and move to Android (or whatever.)

    The fact that I CAN do that (admittedly with some annoying aspects of switching) kinda shows it’s not a true monopoly.
    Apple wouldn't cease doing business in Arizona or any other state for that matter.  Besides the bill would be a paper tiger without other states sponsoring similar legislation.  

    The claim is Apple has monopoly control over the App Store, not smartphones in general so your argument doesn't hold.  The availability of Android does not change Apple's control of the App Store.

    It's much deeper than that. Some people think Apple has monopoly control over their platform and devices - and that, in some way, is a bad thing. This only starts with the App Store and then moves on from there. The fact is, Apple only controls its own products and that is where monopoly laws fall short when used against Apple. Monopoly laws were made to protect the viability of a free and open market. The App Store is a private market, that developers and users pay to enter.

    Giving the government the power to force a company to change the way its products work is only a good thing when those products control the market and give that company reach to control other markets as well.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 25
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 2,107member
    If a law passes, and Apple acquiesces rather than fights, my hatred towards Apple will exceed my current admiration towards it.
    mcdave
  • Reply 10 of 25
    frantisekfrantisek Posts: 730member
    As Arizona nears a final vote that could force changes on the App Store, a somewhat loaded survey of public opinion shows 69% of residents back the bill.


    According to the press release issued by Data Orbital, the 550 people surveyed were given background information that did not discuss issues of security, privacy, or how Google and Apple get paid for hosting their app stores.

    We are just a bit bigger country considering population. 10 millions. Any research with less then 1000 respondents is not taken seriously here.
    edited March 16 spock1234chasmwatto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 25
    EsquireCatsEsquireCats Posts: 1,152member
    The unintended consequence of this bill is that it renders every store into a showroom.
    chasmmcdaveradarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 25
    mjtomlin said:
    I’m fine with Apple ceasing to do business in Arizona. Maybe Apple has done a number on me, but I happen to like things the way they are in the Apple walled-garden.

    if I didn’t, I’d jump ship and move to Android (or whatever.)

    The fact that I CAN do that (admittedly with some annoying aspects of switching) kinda shows it’s not a true monopoly.
    Apple wouldn't cease doing business in Arizona or any other state for that matter.  Besides the bill would be a paper tiger without other states sponsoring similar legislation.  

    The claim is Apple has monopoly control over the App Store, not smartphones in general so your argument doesn't hold.  The availability of Android does not change Apple's control of the App Store.

    It's much deeper than that. Some people think Apple has monopoly control over their platform and devices - and that, in some way, is a bad thing. This only starts with the App Store and then moves on from there. The fact is, Apple only controls its own products and that is where monopoly laws fall short when used against Apple. Monopoly laws were made to protect the viability of a free and open market. The App Store is a private market, that developers and users pay to enter.

    Giving the government the power to force a company to change the way its products work is only a good thing when those products control the market and give that company reach to control other markets as well.
    The fact is, your opinion of what defines a monopoly is irrelevant.  Both to the discussion and as a matter of law.  I don't mean that disrespectfully and apologize if it comes off that way.  I just want to shortcut a discussion about what constitutes a monopoly.  My post was simply clarifying what the claim is in this case.  Whether or not they actually have a monopoly will be adjudicated in a court of law.

    One thing is certain though.  The App Store isn't a private market.  It is part of the Services category of a publicly held company.  
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 13 of 25
    BeatsBeats Posts: 2,110member
    I’m fine with Apple ceasing to do business in Arizona. Maybe Apple has done a number on me, but I happen to like things the way they are in the Apple walled-garden.

    if I didn’t, I’d jump ship and move to Android (or whatever.)

    The fact that I CAN do that (admittedly with some annoying aspects of switching) kinda shows it’s not a true monopoly.
    Apple wouldn't cease doing business in Arizona or any other state for that matter.  Besides the bill would be a paper tiger without other states sponsoring similar legislation.  

    The claim is Apple has monopoly control over the App Store, not smartphones in general so your argument doesn't hold.  The availability of Android does not change Apple's control of the App Store.
    So it’s an even more stupid argument. Apple having a monopoly over it’s own invention.

    Imagine if morons hated other companies just as well? Wal-Mart having a monopoly over Wal-Mart, YouTube not allowing PornHub in and WHY CAN’T I ORDER A WHOPPER AT MCDONALD’S!!!!

    rob53 said:
    I think it’s time for Apple to go on the offense and stop being the nice guy. They need to determine who’s behind all these lawsuits and go after those people/companies. As we always say, follow the money!

    My biggest critique of Tim Cook is how nice he is. He’s the nicest, most patient tech CEO in the industry. Allowing others to eat Apple’s lunch and just shrugging his shoulders when other platforms steal their market.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 25
    d_2d_2 Posts: 92member
    Beats said:
    I’m fine with Apple ceasing to do business in Arizona. Maybe Apple has done a number on me, but I happen to like things the way they are in the Apple walled-garden.

    if I didn’t, I’d jump ship and move to Android (or whatever.)

    The fact that I CAN do that (admittedly with some annoying aspects of switching) kinda shows it’s not a true monopoly.
    Apple wouldn't cease doing business in Arizona or any other state for that matter.  Besides the bill would be a paper tiger without other states sponsoring similar legislation.  

    The claim is Apple has monopoly control over the App Store, not smartphones in general so your argument doesn't hold.  The availability of Android does not change Apple's control of the App Store.
    So it’s an even more stupid argument. Apple having a monopoly over it’s own invention.

    Imagine if morons hated other companies just as well? Wal-Mart having a monopoly over Wal-Mart, YouTube not allowing PornHub in and WHY CAN’T I ORDER A WHOPPER AT MCDONALD’S!!!!

    rob53 said:
    I think it’s time for Apple to go on the offense and stop being the nice guy. They need to determine who’s behind all these lawsuits and go after those people/companies. As we always say, follow the money!

    My biggest critique of Tim Cook is how nice he is. He’s the nicest, most patient tech CEO in the industry. Allowing others to eat Apple’s lunch and just shrugging his shoulders when other platforms steal their market.
    Agreed, Tim appears to be very nice.

    That said - although Apple is not perfect, and no one is, I don’t believe “Apple’s lunch is being eaten” as they lead in most every market they compete.
    sportyguy209watto_cobra
  • Reply 15 of 25
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 9,012member
    If a law passes, and Apple acquiesces rather than fights, my hatred towards Apple will exceed my current admiration towards it.
    Well, like the Russian announcement this morning, Apple says it will abide by the laws of the country it’s doing business in. We can’t help it if people, including many here, have no idea what the legal definition of monopoly means. The government apparently can define it anyway they like and the public will swallow it... because the progressives have brainwashed the population in to believing all business is evil/bad/corrupt and needs to be totally controlled and regulated by the government. The concept of a free market is anathema to them.

    And to pre-answer the incoming barrage of incensed progressives, once you regulate and strangle a market it is no longer free. Once you artificially contrive competition you no longer have competition, you have government protected businesses that can't survive on their own without government subsidies. Remember what President Obama said about private business, “You didn’t build that.” And he did not mean infrastructure either, as some like to claim.
    edited March 16 watto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 25
    mac_dogmac_dog Posts: 879member
    To be clear, Arizona voters want more regulation? The Arizona that is, historically a  red state and, as far as I know, wants less government involvement? I guess you do get to have it both ways. 
    chasmwatto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 25
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 881member
    mac_dog said:
    To be clear, Arizona voters want more regulation? The Arizona that is, historically a  red state and, as far as I know, wants less government involvement? I guess you do get to have it both ways. 
    We Arizonans can’t help it.  It’s those damn Californians!  The just keep emigrating here because they’re trying to get away from regulation.  😁
  • Reply 18 of 25
    chasmchasm Posts: 2,343member
    rob53 said:
    I think it’s time for Apple to go on the offense and stop being the nice guy. They need to determine who’s behind all these lawsuits and go after those people/companies. As we always say, follow the money!
    Um ... Apple knows perfectly well who’s behind this bill and the lawsuits. It’s Epic.

    Their lobbyist wrote the bill, they’re the ones suing.

    This bill doesn’t hold up to legal scrutiny, so the courts are likely to nullify it. It has carve-outs for console stores (why?) and Epic’s own store. Apple”s App Store, like Google’s, accept several different forms of payment. This bill is entirely about a spoiled-brat Dev that wants all the benefits of the App Store without paying for it. I compare this to opening a store in a mall and then telling the mall owner that you shouldn’t have to pay rent because it’s the only mall in town. They should just let you make 100 percent of the gross revenue. Try that in the real world and see how far you get.

    One can certainly make the case that Apple has a monopoly in App Stores on that platform, but that’s not illegal. Monopoly ABUSE is illegal, and Epic can’t show harm.
    edited March 16 radarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 19 of 25
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,603member
    Uber allows you to choose how you pay for your ride versus game and dating apps where the consumer is forced to only use Apple and Google's payment system”
    No it doesn’t, Uber charges me their fixed commercials directly through the App. I can plug any payment transactor (Visa, Amex, Apple Pay) into the App but I don’t get to order/pay for Uber services outside of Uber’s own system.

    The proposal is akin to walking out of a grocery store with a full bag saying “thanks for all the costs you incurred helping me make my purchase decisions but I’ll pay someone else, bye!”

    What a disgraceful display of self-entitlement.
    radarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 20 of 25
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,603member
    The unintended consequence of this bill is that it renders every store into a showroom.
    Just like e-tail has. Are you sure it’s “unintended”?
    If anything, regulators should be enforcing integrated sales/payment systems.
    watto_cobra
Sign In or Register to comment.