No matter how much R&D and beta testing are done, no product is problem-proof once millions start using it "in the field." The real question is how a company responds to those problems. I've been using Apple computers since 1992 and have had two products with issues during that time: my 2009 iMac and my 2015 MacBook 12'. The iMac developed screen splotches (which were an issue on that model) quite a while after my AppleCare had expired. Apple replaced the whole screen anyway, free of charge. Then the hard drives in that iMac began showing signs of early failure. Again, I was long out of AppleCare by that time, and even though my HD was still problem-free, Apple again replaced it at no charge. With my MacBook 12", I started having a sticky keys issue with the butterfly keyboard about 6 months after AppleCare expired, but Apple still replaced the whole bottom case of my MacBook at no charge.
Bottom line: when Apple does discover an issue once a product is out to consumers, they've always done right by me in terms of fixing it at no cost.
Bottom line is - the Apple you speak of no-longer exists. Now Apple releases products with known problems and ignores it's customers. It denies denies denies until a class action is filed - and then it rolls out some BS program as a PR move and judgement appeasement. 1 hour out of AppleCare and you are SOL.
2015 Macbook keyboard replaced 2018 at no cost, long after AppleCare expired. Please make your list of products released with "known problems" and "ignored customers."
Not everyone with butterfly keyboard MAC had or have problem. Many don't. Apple should just extend the warranty from 4 to 8-10 years covering butterfly keyboard issue. By that time most MAC's with butterfly keyboard would be end of life.
Another issue I have with class action lawsuits is lawyers make most vs affected parties. Also how Apple or court determines who to give out any settlement when the product changes hand ? If I buy Macbook with butterfly keyboard and decide to sell to someone than who gets that settlement money ? If that person sells again than what ? And all happens within the one year warranty period.
I know Jony Ive’s designs got the blame and his Stephen Kingesque obsession with 'thinner', but was it Jony that designed it, or was it an Apple team effort?
These class action lawsuits will likely bring money to the law group involved with those actually having the this issue only receiving a check or gift card for a few dollars. I understand that not everyone seems to have the issue happen to them, but I for one have been plagued by it. Thankfully I live only 2 blocks from an Apple store and its to the point they recognize me. I can run out to them to have them blow some air without an appointment. But as of last week, I'm on my 12th top panel (including keyboard) replacement and have come in for them to do their air blowing trick at least double that amount of times as well. I purchased the system in January 2018 and last week alone I went in twice. It's very frustrating especially since I do not eat over my laptop and it just sits on my desk for daily work. I've wanted to buy a new laptop just because of this issue but I feel that's such a waste at the machine runs perfectly other than that.
No matter how much R&D and beta testing are done, no product is problem-proof once millions start using it "in the field." The real question is how a company responds to those problems. I've been using Apple computers since 1992 and have had two products with issues during that time: my 2009 iMac and my 2015 MacBook 12'. The iMac developed screen splotches (which were an issue on that model) quite a while after my AppleCare had expired. Apple replaced the whole screen anyway, free of charge. Then the hard drives in that iMac began showing signs of early failure. Again, I was long out of AppleCare by that time, and even though my HD was still problem-free, Apple again replaced it at no charge. With my MacBook 12", I started having a sticky keys issue with the butterfly keyboard about 6 months after AppleCare expired, but Apple still replaced the whole bottom case of my MacBook at no charge.
Bottom line: when Apple does discover an issue once a product is out to consumers, they've always done right by me in terms of fixing it at no cost.
Bottom line is - the Apple you speak of no-longer exists. Now Apple releases products with known problems and ignores it's customers. It denies denies denies until a class action is filed - and then it rolls out some BS program as a PR move and judgement appeasement. 1 hour out of AppleCare and you are SOL.
I haven't found that to be true. I've had several things fixed under original and AppleCare warranty. There are many stories of them repairing out of warranty products with known issues. The keyboards appear to be one of those. They've done it quite a bit with battery issues on various products as well.
Apple will likely settle this because it's cheaper than fighting it. But I'm not sure it has merit. The existence of the email doesn't mean Apple knowingly kept pumping out a flawed products with some sort of negligence. It means one executive thought the keyboard sucked, which it seems it did. So what did they do? They redesigned it and offered a repair program in the interim. Design flaws happen. They can't always be fixed in a split second.
I know Jony Ive’s designs got the blame and his Stephen Kingesque obsession with 'thinner', but was it Jony that designed it, or was it an Apple team effort?
The Input Design Lab has been covered before. They of course collaborate with the design team and engineering.
I have a late 2016 15" MacBook Pro. It's used heavily every day by several family members which includes teenage kids. According to the tech press, I guess my keyboard should have blown up a long time ago. Yet, I've never had a single problem with it. Mind you, I'm not crazy about the lack of travel on the butterfly keyboards, but I've not had any reliability problems. I guess I'm the lucky one??
I had a 2017 MBP 15. The right arrow key stopped working about 3 months after I got it. The keyboard was swapped out, it ended up frying the power controller chip soon after that - not sure if it was related to the first repair or not. They ended up replacing it with a 2018 MBP, which is still working - for my son. I bought a MBP 16 because I didn't trust the butterfly keyboard, particularly after buying a 2017 MB 12 for my daughter and having the letter 'C' not work right out of the box (also repaired under warranty), I know of other butterfly keyboard issues at my small company - roughly half of the affected machines.
So... in my experience I'd say it was a coin toss in terms of your luck, but who knows what the real numbers were. (Maybe we'll find out with this lawsuit.)
A coin toss implies the failure rate is roughly 50%. There is no evidence to support that claim. I'm sure it really sucks to have a broken keyboard. I don't mean to belittle anyone's experience. My point is that we typically hear from the vocal minority. Apple's own claims are that a "small percentage" of users have been impacted. Granted, I don't know what percentage that actually is, but I doubt it's anywhere near 50%. If repairs needed have gone from 0.5% to 1% for a product that sells in the millions, that could very well be a large number of devices that are impacted. However, I suspect the tech media has exaggerated this number.
Yes, and you probably should be quiet and not jinx yourself... the last person I heard say this, a couple weeks later...
Realistically, it wouldn't matter much at this point either way. The machine is already 4.5 year old with no issues whatsoever. It has effectively served its useful purpose already. As the Apple Silicon Macs become available in a wider range of products, I'll be upgrading soon anyway.
techconc said: My point is that we typically hear from the vocal minority. Apple's own claims are that a "small percentage" of users have been impacted. Granted, I don't know what percentage that actually is, but I doubt it's anywhere near 50%. If repairs needed have gone from 0.5% to 1% for a product that sells in the millions, that could very well be a large number of devices that are impacted. However, I suspect the tech media has exaggerated this number.
That's what they say, but I listen to nearly 50 podcasts. Every one of those podcasters (a few of the tech podcasts have multiple hosts) who has a MacBook in that era, except one, has had the problem at least once. Every person I know who owns one (including the one in our house) has the problem. Again, what are the odds that 'small percentage' would show up so prominently in that admittedly anecdotal group? Either the problem is more than a 'small percentage' or podcasters and my circle of contacts are horrifically unlucky!
No matter how much R&D and beta testing are done, no product is problem-proof once millions start using it "in the field." The real question is how a company responds to those problems. I've been using Apple computers since 1992 and have had two products with issues during that time: my 2009 iMac and my 2015 MacBook 12'. The iMac developed screen splotches (which were an issue on that model) quite a while after my AppleCare had expired. Apple replaced the whole screen anyway, free of charge. Then the hard drives in that iMac began showing signs of early failure. Again, I was long out of AppleCare by that time, and even though my HD was still problem-free, Apple again replaced it at no charge. With my MacBook 12", I started having a sticky keys issue with the butterfly keyboard about 6 months after AppleCare expired, but Apple still replaced the whole bottom case of my MacBook at no charge.
Bottom line: when Apple does discover an issue once a product is out to consumers, they've always done right by me in terms of fixing it at no cost.
Bottom line is - the Apple you speak of no-longer exists. Now Apple releases products with known problems and ignores it's customers. It denies denies denies until a class action is filed - and then it rolls out some BS program as a PR move and judgement appeasement. 1 hour out of AppleCare and you are SOL.
That's something covered by UK consumer protection law. If you can prove a part was faulty from the factory, the manufacturer has to replace it for up to 6 years afterward. The 2012 27" iMacs have plastic washers retaining the display springs, and they eventually break and the screen will no longer stay at the angle you set. That is obviously a design defect, and something present when the product was manufactured. Apple replaced the washers free of charge, with the same plastic washers. So the problem will happen again. That can only be considered a temporary fix, and a real fix (metal washers???) should be employed. Same with the repeated butterfly keyboard replacements.
When about EVERYONE we know that owns one of these has problems, it's probably just a tad bit more than 2x the previous design (where I'm sure they failed, but I never ran into one or knew anyone). Including our own, people I know, and podcasts I listen to, that's like 20+ bad ones, some replaced more than once. Yes, anecdotal, but the problems aren't THAT clustered. And about everyone I've ever talked to about it says nearly the same thing about their circle of connections.
I think it would be more accurate to say... some small percentage haven't failed, yet.
The thing that points toward it being a bigger problem than AI (and several fanatics) seems to think it is is the fact that some people have had the keyboard replaced 3 or 4 times. If the failure rate of the old keyboard was say 2.5%, then the new one was twice as much at 5%. Multiplying the probabilities gives 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 = 0.000625% chance of someone's keyboard failing 4 times - or 6 failures per million. And there's a lot more than just 6 people here alone complaining about their keyboard failing over and over.
AppleInsider said: Replacing the faulty keyboards with another using the same design was also considered by the plaintiffs to be a bad idea, as it had the potential for the same issues to resurface at a later time.
Yes, because it is just a matter of time until it fails AGAIN. Maybe that can buy enough time to last the useful timeframe of the product if one is careful, but I don't think that is reasonable. IMO, either a solid class-action, or Apple could just extend the 4-years to lifetime.
When something like this happens, there needs to be legalisation such that consumers have recourse. Otherwise the company can just fob off the consumer with temporary fixes until N years have passed for the extended warranty to run out.
That's what they say, but I listen to nearly 50 podcasts. Every one of those podcasters (a few of the tech podcasts have multiple hosts) who has a MacBook in that era, except one, has had the problem at least once. Every person I know who owns one (including the one in our house) has the problem. Again, what are the odds that 'small percentage' would show up so prominently in that admittedly anecdotal group? Either the problem is more than a 'small percentage' or podcasters and my circle of contacts are horrifically unlucky!
I don't claim to know what a "small percentage" means, but I suspect we'll find out through a court case. If nothing else, we may at least get real data on this from the only actual source that knows... Apple. Regardless, I don't see how anyone can spin 50% failure rate as a "small percentage". I can only speak from my own anecdotal experience which includes my machine and those who I directly know that also use the butterfly keyboard. None that I'm aware of have actually experienced this problem.
As for the tech media / blogosphere, it's hard to take that very serious as they are basically an echo chamber. All it takes is two people complaining of the same problem and suddenly, it's a massive problem that's happening to EVERYONE. They all repeat the same things... good or bad.
Finally, for all I know, there may be other environmental factors involved. Are people actively spilling things on their keyboards? Are they subjecting them to different conditions? I can say that mine is HEAVILY used, mostly by my teenage kids. They're not exactly neat and careful with how they handle equipment.
The thing that points toward it being a bigger problem than AI (and several fanatics) seems to think it is is the fact that some people have had the keyboard replaced 3 or 4 times. If the failure rate of the old keyboard was say 2.5%, then the new one was twice as much at 5%. Multiplying the probabilities gives 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 = 0.000625% chance of someone's keyboard failing 4 times - or 6 failures per million. And there's a lot more than just 6 people here alone complaining about their keyboard failing over and over.
So, if someone honestly hasn't experienced the same problem as you, you feel obligated to label them as a fanatic? If more than one person experiences a problem, everyone else must be also? Is that how your sense of logic works? Good to know.
That's what they say, but I listen to nearly 50 podcasts. Every one of those podcasters (a few of the tech podcasts have multiple hosts) who has a MacBook in that era, except one, has had the problem at least once. Every person I know who owns one (including the one in our house) has the problem. Again, what are the odds that 'small percentage' would show up so prominently in that admittedly anecdotal group? Either the problem is more than a 'small percentage' or podcasters and my circle of contacts are horrifically unlucky!
I don't claim to know what a "small percentage" means, but I suspect we'll find out through a court case. If nothing else, we may at least get real data on this from the only actual source that knows... Apple. Regardless, I don't see how anyone can spin 50% failure rate as a "small percentage".
Do you seriously think that Apple's lawyers are saints and will only tell the "truth" always? Or for that matter, the executives of ANY company (not just Apple) when the "need" arises?
The thing that points toward it being a bigger problem than AI (and several fanatics) seems to think it is is the fact that some people have had the keyboard replaced 3 or 4 times. If the failure rate of the old keyboard was say 2.5%, then the new one was twice as much at 5%. Multiplying the probabilities gives 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 = 0.000625% chance of someone's keyboard failing 4 times - or 6 failures per million. And there's a lot more than just 6 people here alone complaining about their keyboard failing over and over.
So, if someone honestly hasn't experienced the same problem as you, you feel obligated to label them as a fanatic? If more than one person experiences a problem, everyone else must be also? Is that how your sense of logic works? Good to know.
No, but I do label those who claim these problems don't exist/are the fault of the customer/not Apple's fault/my keyboard is fine so everyone's who's failed is misusing it as a fanatic. There are a number here who dismiss all bugs or design defects as the fault of the customer. It's never Apple's fault in these people's eyes.
elijahg said: The thing that points toward it being a bigger problem than AI (and several fanatics) seems to think it is is the fact that some people have had the keyboard replaced 3 or 4 times. If the failure rate of the old keyboard was say 2.5%, then the new one was twice as much at 5%. Multiplying the probabilities gives 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 = 0.000625% chance of someone's keyboard failing 4 times - or 6 failures per million. And there's a lot more than just 6 people here alone complaining about their keyboard failing over and over.
Yes, that is a very good point as well. If the numbers were small, the chances of a 2nd, 3rd repair would be nearly non-existent. Via podcasts and people I know, at least a few are past the 2nd repair. The odds of that are staggering, unless of course, it's far more common than 'rare'.
techconc said: As for the tech media / blogosphere, it's hard to take that very serious as they are basically an echo chamber. All it takes is two people complaining of the same problem and suddenly, it's a massive problem that's happening to EVERYONE. They all repeat the same things... good or bad.
Maybe you misunderstood... I don't mean all the tech podcasts (and other podcasts) are TALKING about the problem. I mean they all EXPERIENCED the problem with their butterfly keyboard laptops (some more than one). At that point, you'd have to believe they are lying for the sake of creating more drama.
And, as mentioned, out of those 50 podcasts, maybe 10 are directly related to tech. The rest are everything from nutrition, to business, to religion, etc. People who podcast often use Apple gear and many are laptops. It would seem odd that multiple hosts of Christian apologetics podcasts, or nutritionists, who own Mac laptops talking about having to ship the machine off for keyboard repairs, are just trying to stoke-up Apple-community drama.
Comments
Apple will likely settle this because it's cheaper than fighting it. But I'm not sure it has merit. The existence of the email doesn't mean Apple knowingly kept pumping out a flawed products with some sort of negligence. It means one executive thought the keyboard sucked, which it seems it did. So what did they do? They redesigned it and offered a repair program in the interim. Design flaws happen. They can't always be fixed in a split second.
https://medium.com/backchannel/what-i-saw-inside-apple-s-top-secret-input-lab-6637e2e5492e
https://medium.com/backchannel/exclusive-why-apple-is-still-sweating-the-details-on-imac-531a95e50c91
Realistically, it wouldn't matter much at this point either way. The machine is already 4.5 year old with no issues whatsoever. It has effectively served its useful purpose already. As the Apple Silicon Macs become available in a wider range of products, I'll be upgrading soon anyway.
The thing that points toward it being a bigger problem than AI (and several fanatics) seems to think it is is the fact that some people have had the keyboard replaced 3 or 4 times. If the failure rate of the old keyboard was say 2.5%, then the new one was twice as much at 5%. Multiplying the probabilities gives 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 = 0.000625% chance of someone's keyboard failing 4 times - or 6 failures per million. And there's a lot more than just 6 people here alone complaining about their keyboard failing over and over. When something like this happens, there needs to be legalisation such that consumers have recourse. Otherwise the company can just fob off the consumer with temporary fixes until N years have passed for the extended warranty to run out.
As for the tech media / blogosphere, it's hard to take that very serious as they are basically an echo chamber. All it takes is two people complaining of the same problem and suddenly, it's a massive problem that's happening to EVERYONE. They all repeat the same things... good or bad.
Finally, for all I know, there may be other environmental factors involved. Are people actively spilling things on their keyboards? Are they subjecting them to different conditions? I can say that mine is HEAVILY used, mostly by my teenage kids. They're not exactly neat and careful with how they handle equipment.
So, if someone honestly hasn't experienced the same problem as you, you feel obligated to label them as a fanatic? If more than one person experiences a problem, everyone else must be also? Is that how your sense of logic works? Good to know.
Maybe you misunderstood... I don't mean all the tech podcasts (and other podcasts) are TALKING about the problem. I mean they all EXPERIENCED the problem with their butterfly keyboard laptops (some more than one). At that point, you'd have to believe they are lying for the sake of creating more drama.
And, as mentioned, out of those 50 podcasts, maybe 10 are directly related to tech. The rest are everything from nutrition, to business, to religion, etc. People who podcast often use Apple gear and many are laptops. It would seem odd that multiple hosts of Christian apologetics podcasts, or nutritionists, who own Mac laptops talking about having to ship the machine off for keyboard repairs, are just trying to stoke-up Apple-community drama.