I don't think I ever said or implied that the current events happening in Iraq aren't "important". Don't be a doofus.
But these protest people (the really hardcore, disruptive ones I'm talking about) aren't a) changing anything b) influencing Bush, Rumsfeld, Blair, the military c) aren't contributing anything truly worthwhile.
They're just gumming things up.
Read my post again: protest all you want. I think that's one of those beautiful things that you can do that here and not get tortured or executed. But you DON'T get to disrupt others, break laws, etc. And when you do, you get in trouble.
Yes, this is important. But the behavior of some of these protest crowds is not justified and can't be excused away by "but it's important".
Maybe it's important for a single mom to make it to the day care or babysitter's on time? Maybe it's important that a father makes it to his daughter's PTA open house or school play? Maybe it's important that someone just wants to get home and feed their fish and let the dog out?
Frankly, I'm quite able to make my own decisions without trying to deciper a hastily written sign being waved around.
The longer I'm delayed, the less I am likely to feel any compassion for the cause.
They may well be holding my attention ... unfortunately that attention is focussed mainly on figuring out how likely it is that the sign fits up their ass.
Well one can tell from your polarized statement that you've already made up your mind. But there are people out there that will be swayed by this.
This is for them. Sorry I've lived throught this before. We just haven't seen it's likes in awhile. Some of you have never seen it.
I don't think I ever said or implied that the current events happening in Iraq aren't "important". Don't be a doofus.
But these protest people (the really hardcore, disruptive ones I'm talking about) aren't a) changing anything b) influencing Bush, Rumsfeld, Blair, the military c) aren't contributing anything truly worthwhile.
They're just gumming things up.
Read my post again: protest all you want. I think that's one of those beautiful things that you can do that here and not get tortured or executed. But you DON'T get to disrupt others, break laws, etc. And when you do, you get in trouble.
Yes, this is important. But the behavior of some of these protest crowds is not justified and can't be excused away by "but it's important".
Maybe it's important for a single mom to make it to the day care or babysitter's on time? Maybe it's important that a father makes it to his daughter's PTA open house or school play? Maybe it's important that someone just wants to get home and feed their fish and let the dog out?
My original point/view still stands...
I imagine some of the locals in Bagdad are feeling disrupted ( against their laws ) right about now. By the way through those streets isn't the only way home for anyone.
I went to see a 'The Life of David Gale'. It tried (SO clumsily) to humanize the death penalty issue. By the time the movie was over I hadn't been convinced of anything more than the self-righteousness of the film-makers. They were carrying around Sammi Jo's foot-shootin' gun.
Well one can tell from your polarized statement that you've already made up your mind. But there are people out there that will be swayed by this.
This is for them. Sorry I've lived throught this before. We just haven't seen it's likes in awhile. Some of you have never seen it.
I'm polarized on the subject at hand - protests that impede the progress of others. Much like the current wave of protests are made up of people who are polarized on the subject of war.
Sitting in an intersection does nothing to further the cause.
Perhaps I'll start blocking access to hemp shops, cafes that sell fair-trade coffee, and any other place the protesters may want to go.
A protest against urination which blocks access to any public toilets close to a protest sounds much more effective. At least then perhaps we'll see some arrests for public urination.
Live in Austin sometime and try to get downtown from the Hyde Park area when you're near the UT campus and Guadalupe is completely blocked.
I used to live in Portland. There's quite a few ways to get around. If this had happened in Salem however and say they blocked one of the 2 bridges that might be different as you would have to drive out of town to get across the river.
I'm all for protest (peaceful and law-abiding, of course) and all that.
how was the US formed again? I should also point out the civil rights protests.
Quote:
Guess what? Some people WORK ALL DAY, and - I'm guessing - come 5:00 or so would love to get home to their wives, husbands, kids, dinner, etc. and the LAST thing they want is so neo-hippie in a piece-of-shit, homemade "skull of death" mask leaning on the hood of their car and waving a blindingly clever "NO WAR FOR OIL" poster in front of their windshield.
It amazes me that people like you actually think these fantasies reflect the real world.
Yes, this is important. But the behavior of some of these protest crowds is not justified and can't be excused away by "but it's important".
In any protest, there's always the feisty element who do things outside of the law. Frustration is the trigger and people feel that the only way to get attention to their cause is to do things that attract the media, and "civil disobedience" is far better ratingss than a crowd of people sitting in a grassy park chanting "Ommmmmmmmmmm".
Despite the odd exception, the behavior of anti-war/anti-globalization etc etc protesters doing civil disobedience is creative, peaceful, disciplined and orderly. This is in contrast top the rowdy element that often engages in drunken rioting after big sports events, specially when their team loses. This kind of causeless "protest" is more tolerated by U.S. society because it's not politically charged. "Boys just being boys" is so much easier to deal with.
Then there's the odd case of the Seattle WTO demos in 1999, where some 400 black clad "anarchists" went round downtown Seattle smashing windows and setting fire to cars, with the media in tow, with the SPD watching! Thos core group weren't even arrested or charged, and some have claimed they were "agents provocateurs"...but who sponsored them? Nobody really knows for sure, and the SPD still refuse to comment.
And then some of the very same policemen were seen prying heat tiles off the shuttle orbiter Columbia just like ShawnPatrickJoyce said!
i was about ready to kill those idiot protestors last night. bunch of morons waving around cardboard signs and screaming a bunch of drivel.
if they actually had a permit i'd do my best to make sure whoever gave it to them was either fired or never relected. 5:00 on a friday is a stupid time to hold a protest if you want anyone to pay attention or listen to what you're saying.
it's like standing outside a bathroom door and barring people from getting in until they listen to what you say. they couldn't care less what you say, they just want to go to the bathroom. in virtually no time, they're going to start resenting you and your message because you're barring them from getting to what they want.
then again, i wouldn't exactly say that i think most of these protestors are the best and the brightest, so go figure.
it's like standing outside a bathroom door and barring people from getting in until they listen to what you say. they couldn't care less what you say, they just want to go to the bathroom. in virtually no time, they're going to start resenting you and your message because you're barring them from getting to what they want.
I tried that argument ... didn't work. May just be due to the fact that I am 'polarized'. Although I don't see what my sunglasses have to do with this, at all.
I tried that argument ... didn't work. May just be due to the fact that I am 'polarized'. Although I don't see what my sunglasses have to do with this, at all.
I with you on this.
If I agreed with their cause, I'd be the wrong person to be yelling at. If I disagreed, getting in my way would only piss me off. Either way, their cause is not advanced and I'm mad at them.
So true, you guys couldn't have said it better. MOST anti-war protests are college kids and old hippies trying to relive the "glory days" of the 60's. It's a different world ladies and gentlemen, and you aren't helping the situation by causing more problems. This is really sad. If they had a logical argument I could understand, but it makes me SO MAD to see the people in Chicago, San Francisco, and Washington. I hear their chants on the radio and television, and they have no idea what this war is about. They block out what the media tries to tell them because their conspiracy theorist minds distrust the media. I have read and watched everything I can about this situation. I have attended several pro and anti war rallies. I listened to a woman on the radio today who called in to say that she went to an anti-war protest to get a different perspective. She decided that after listening to the lack of purpose and truth behind the anti-war chants, that she supports our president and his decision to rid the world of this tyrant and monster. I share her view. This country is doing everything they can to end this without a massive all out fight. They bombed Baghdad, maybe killed Saddam. This could be enough to get the Iraqis to surrender. I heard a humorous statement by a radio talk show host today. He said something like "This is a psych war. We open up with a volley of cruise missiles and threaten an operation that promises to "shock and awe" the world. At this point, if I were an Iraqi soldier I would be looking around saying, 'anyone really wanna fight these guys? No? Ok, we give up...'" That is what Bush and his administration are trying to do. SHAME on those who compare him to Hitler and bin Laden. He is our president...although he may not be the smartest guy, he is a decent man and a good leader. If those people believe Bush is as bad as Saddam or Hitler, perhaps they should live under a tyrannical regime, and perhaps they might change their tune.
then again, i wouldn't exactly say that i think most of these protestors are the best and the brightest, so go figure.
If you disagree with the war and want to make a loud statement, banners and placards are the sole recourse, unless you want to spend $100,000 and take out a full-page antiwar ad in a major newspaper, which a number of folk have done. (Some newspapars have refuse to publish...for example Walden3's "Powell Lied" ads in the LA Times).
There is little media access for anti-war sentiment, specially with increasingly corporate centralized and administration approved copy dominating all the airtime before the war started. The token anti-war features, for example on CNN, usually featured a Hollywood icon who readily admitted not being an "expert" and which by association (lefty Hollywood) puts the anti-war view in the usual box. On the other hand, Clear Channel (the largest media group and owner of 1200+ radio stations in the USA) is actively sponsoring "Pro War" rallies.
It's tough to encapsulate the whole Middle East foreign policy/economics of war/human effects etc etc in the classic simple 4-word statement that is the tradition in the protest movement. Lengthy, logical essays printed on a sheet of cardboard, held up in the air on a stick and addressing the follies of this war do not really work in the street or as a means to put facts or opinion over. The only way to reduce such complex issues for public consumption is via sloganeering. I have watched some Pro War rallies too...the sentiments expressed there are not exactly "intelligent" either....
Talking about the "not the best and brightest"....check this out on the Register regarding the organizers of San Francisco's disruption and civil disobedience yesterday: many were employees of the Silicon Valley tech corporations, (including Apple Computer). I'd love to witness any of those "brainless software engineers and hardware designers" specially those who have studied the Middle East issue in depth, going one-on-one on a TV debate with President Bush or any members of his Administration, with unrehearsed off the cuff questions. A most entertaining thought, but always a fantasy.
Maybe I need new glasses, but somehow I don't seem to be seeing either "college kids and old hippies trying to relive the 'glory days' of the 60's" or any "neo-hippie in a piece-of-shit, homemade 'skull of death' mask."
In fact, looking at all of the photos I can find of the Chicago protests (some are behind registration on news sites, so no links), I have yet to find anyone matching those discriptions.
You guys should really stop the inaccurate stereotyping and come join the rest of us in the real world.
Comments
But these protest people (the really hardcore, disruptive ones I'm talking about) aren't a) changing anything b) influencing Bush, Rumsfeld, Blair, the military c) aren't contributing anything truly worthwhile.
They're just gumming things up.
Read my post again: protest all you want. I think that's one of those beautiful things that you can do that here and not get tortured or executed. But you DON'T get to disrupt others, break laws, etc. And when you do, you get in trouble.
Yes, this is important. But the behavior of some of these protest crowds is not justified and can't be excused away by "but it's important".
Maybe it's important for a single mom to make it to the day care or babysitter's on time? Maybe it's important that a father makes it to his daughter's PTA open house or school play? Maybe it's important that someone just wants to get home and feed their fish and let the dog out?
My original point/view still stands...
Originally posted by audiopollution
Frankly, I'm quite able to make my own decisions without trying to deciper a hastily written sign being waved around.
The longer I'm delayed, the less I am likely to feel any compassion for the cause.
They may well be holding my attention ... unfortunately that attention is focussed mainly on figuring out how likely it is that the sign fits up their ass.
Well one can tell from your polarized statement that you've already made up your mind. But there are people out there that will be swayed by this.
This is for them. Sorry I've lived throught this before. We just haven't seen it's likes in awhile. Some of you have never seen it.
Originally posted by pscates
I don't think I ever said or implied that the current events happening in Iraq aren't "important". Don't be a doofus.
But these protest people (the really hardcore, disruptive ones I'm talking about) aren't a) changing anything b) influencing Bush, Rumsfeld, Blair, the military c) aren't contributing anything truly worthwhile.
They're just gumming things up.
Read my post again: protest all you want. I think that's one of those beautiful things that you can do that here and not get tortured or executed. But you DON'T get to disrupt others, break laws, etc. And when you do, you get in trouble.
Yes, this is important. But the behavior of some of these protest crowds is not justified and can't be excused away by "but it's important".
Maybe it's important for a single mom to make it to the day care or babysitter's on time? Maybe it's important that a father makes it to his daughter's PTA open house or school play? Maybe it's important that someone just wants to get home and feed their fish and let the dog out?
My original point/view still stands...
I imagine some of the locals in Bagdad are feeling disrupted ( against their laws ) right about now. By the way through those streets isn't the only way home for anyone.
This isn't the 60's.
That style of protest is funny to me.
And it's annoying.
I went to see a 'The Life of David Gale'. It tried (SO clumsily) to humanize the death penalty issue. By the time the movie was over I hadn't been convinced of anything more than the self-righteousness of the film-makers. They were carrying around Sammi Jo's foot-shootin' gun.
And hey, didn't I give you that name Sammi Jo?
Think I did!
Originally posted by jimmac
Well one can tell from your polarized statement that you've already made up your mind. But there are people out there that will be swayed by this.
This is for them. Sorry I've lived throught this before. We just haven't seen it's likes in awhile. Some of you have never seen it.
I'm polarized on the subject at hand - protests that impede the progress of others. Much like the current wave of protests are made up of people who are polarized on the subject of war.
Sitting in an intersection does nothing to further the cause.
Perhaps I'll start blocking access to hemp shops, cafes that sell fair-trade coffee, and any other place the protesters may want to go.
A protest against urination which blocks access to any public toilets close to a protest sounds much more effective. At least then perhaps we'll see some arrests for public urination.
Originally posted by audiopollution
I'm still trying to figure out why a protest on one street caused you to be 40 minutes late.
Live in Austin sometime and try to get downtown from the Hyde Park area when you're near the UT campus and Guadalupe is completely blocked.
Originally posted by groverat
Live in Austin sometime and try to get downtown from the Hyde Park area when you're near the UT campus and Guadalupe is completely blocked.
I used to live in Portland. There's quite a few ways to get around. If this had happened in Salem however and say they blocked one of the 2 bridges that might be different as you would have to drive out of town to get across the river.
Originally posted by pscates
I'm all for protest (peaceful and law-abiding, of course) and all that.
how was the US formed again? I should also point out the civil rights protests.
Guess what? Some people WORK ALL DAY, and - I'm guessing - come 5:00 or so would love to get home to their wives, husbands, kids, dinner, etc. and the LAST thing they want is so neo-hippie in a piece-of-shit, homemade "skull of death" mask leaning on the hood of their car and waving a blindingly clever "NO WAR FOR OIL" poster in front of their windshield.
It amazes me that people like you actually think these fantasies reflect the real world.
Yes, this is important. But the behavior of some of these protest crowds is not justified and can't be excused away by "but it's important".
In any protest, there's always the feisty element who do things outside of the law. Frustration is the trigger and people feel that the only way to get attention to their cause is to do things that attract the media, and "civil disobedience" is far better ratingss than a crowd of people sitting in a grassy park chanting "Ommmmmmmmmmm".
Despite the odd exception, the behavior of anti-war/anti-globalization etc etc protesters doing civil disobedience is creative, peaceful, disciplined and orderly. This is in contrast top the rowdy element that often engages in drunken rioting after big sports events, specially when their team loses. This kind of causeless "protest" is more tolerated by U.S. society because it's not politically charged. "Boys just being boys" is so much easier to deal with.
Originally posted by audiopollution
Perhaps I'll start blocking access to hemp shops, cafes that sell fair-trade coffee, and any other place the protesters may want to go.
Again with the stereotyping.
Originally posted by giant
Again with the stereotyping.
Hyperbole ... look it up.
(added via edit)
Humour, too.
BAN PROTESTS, I say. BAN, BAN, BAN them! The less dissent, the better.
Originally posted by sammi jo
Then there's the odd case of the Seattle WTO demos in 1999, where some 400 black clad "anarchists" went round downtown Seattle smashing windows and setting fire to cars, with the media in tow, with the SPD watching! Thos core group weren't even arrested or charged, and some have claimed they were "agents provocateurs"...but who sponsored them? Nobody really knows for sure, and the SPD still refuse to comment.
And then some of the very same policemen were seen prying heat tiles off the shuttle orbiter Columbia just like ShawnPatrickJoyce said!
Originally posted by Eugene
And then some of the very same policemen were seen prying heat tiles off the shuttle orbiter Columbia just like ShawnPatrickJoyce said!
Hehe.
I'm surprised it was 400 black-clad protesters. Wouldn't 23 have been a much better number?
if they actually had a permit i'd do my best to make sure whoever gave it to them was either fired or never relected. 5:00 on a friday is a stupid time to hold a protest if you want anyone to pay attention or listen to what you're saying.
it's like standing outside a bathroom door and barring people from getting in until they listen to what you say. they couldn't care less what you say, they just want to go to the bathroom. in virtually no time, they're going to start resenting you and your message because you're barring them from getting to what they want.
then again, i wouldn't exactly say that i think most of these protestors are the best and the brightest, so go figure.
Originally posted by alcimedes
it's like standing outside a bathroom door and barring people from getting in until they listen to what you say. they couldn't care less what you say, they just want to go to the bathroom. in virtually no time, they're going to start resenting you and your message because you're barring them from getting to what they want.
I tried that argument ... didn't work. May just be due to the fact that I am 'polarized'. Although I don't see what my sunglasses have to do with this, at all.
Originally posted by audiopollution
I tried that argument ... didn't work. May just be due to the fact that I am 'polarized'. Although I don't see what my sunglasses have to do with this, at all.
I with you on this.
If I agreed with their cause, I'd be the wrong person to be yelling at. If I disagreed, getting in my way would only piss me off. Either way, their cause is not advanced and I'm mad at them.
from Alcimedes:
then again, i wouldn't exactly say that i think most of these protestors are the best and the brightest, so go figure.
If you disagree with the war and want to make a loud statement, banners and placards are the sole recourse, unless you want to spend $100,000 and take out a full-page antiwar ad in a major newspaper, which a number of folk have done. (Some newspapars have refuse to publish...for example Walden3's "Powell Lied" ads in the LA Times).
There is little media access for anti-war sentiment, specially with increasingly corporate centralized and administration approved copy dominating all the airtime before the war started. The token anti-war features, for example on CNN, usually featured a Hollywood icon who readily admitted not being an "expert" and which by association (lefty Hollywood) puts the anti-war view in the usual box. On the other hand, Clear Channel (the largest media group and owner of 1200+ radio stations in the USA) is actively sponsoring "Pro War" rallies.
It's tough to encapsulate the whole Middle East foreign policy/economics of war/human effects etc etc in the classic simple 4-word statement that is the tradition in the protest movement. Lengthy, logical essays printed on a sheet of cardboard, held up in the air on a stick and addressing the follies of this war do not really work in the street or as a means to put facts or opinion over. The only way to reduce such complex issues for public consumption is via sloganeering. I have watched some Pro War rallies too...the sentiments expressed there are not exactly "intelligent" either....
Talking about the "not the best and brightest"....check this out on the Register regarding the organizers of San Francisco's disruption and civil disobedience yesterday: many were employees of the Silicon Valley tech corporations, (including Apple Computer). I'd love to witness any of those "brainless software engineers and hardware designers" specially those who have studied the Middle East issue in depth, going one-on-one on a TV debate with President Bush or any members of his Administration, with unrehearsed off the cuff questions. A most entertaining thought, but always a fantasy.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/29862.html
Neo-hippies with skull necklaces....gimme a break.
Maybe I need new glasses, but somehow I don't seem to be seeing either "college kids and old hippies trying to relive the 'glory days' of the 60's" or any "neo-hippie in a piece-of-shit, homemade 'skull of death' mask."
In fact, looking at all of the photos I can find of the Chicago protests (some are behind registration on news sites, so no links), I have yet to find anyone matching those discriptions.
You guys should really stop the inaccurate stereotyping and come join the rest of us in the real world.