Epic Games argues Apple has app monopoly, should make iOS more like macOS

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 47
    Trey_LanceTrey_Lance Posts: 80member
    ‪If I was Apple, I would not mind spending a few billion to make an example out of greedy Epic @EpicGames .I would just ask Epic in court:”So you want to use our brand & services for essentially free? Do you think we are in communist China?Since Epic is owned by Tencent of China.”‬
    The Chinese government has no stake in this. This is just conspiracy theory. Correlation is not causation. If anything the current AppStore model gives the Chinese government more leverage since they can demand Apple block apps.
    Do you deny Tencent owns large part of Epic?

    do you deny Tencent Multi Media is largely controlled by the Chinese Government ? I mean everything in China is but Tencent is even more so. Do some research and you will see it’s clear where Tencent is politically.

    Now, where is the conspiracy?
    Beatslolliver
  • Reply 22 of 47
    JapheyJaphey Posts: 551member
    Quote
    Quizzically, the Epic attorney also likened Apple's App Store to a scenario where if the iPhone was a car, Apple would take 30% of what the driver had to pay for gasoline.

    This is a load of baloney. I don't pay Apple a bent penny when I use one of the Apps on my phone to pay for the charging of my car.  The charging company had my card details. They don't take 30% when I use Apple Pay on my iPhone even for Gas/Petrol.

    I really hope that the Apple legal team objected to that statement. If they didn't then why not?

    Wasn’t the actual quote. It makes sense in context. It falls short only in that the situation applies to apps, not games.
    This isn’t the actual quote and they certainly are not talking about literal gas. It makes sense in context. However it falls short in that the presented situation applies to apps, not games.

    “Wait, you don’t put gasoline in your iPhone”

    It’s kind of funny that so many people are struggling with this gasoline analogy. And I agree that it makes sense, in context:

    gasoline = apps
    car = iPhone

    Why is that so hard for people to grasp? You put gasoline into your car to make it run, like you put apps into your phone to make it do things. The car company doesn’t charge the gas companies, therefore…oh never mind.
    edited May 3 muthuk_vanalingamavon b7
  • Reply 23 of 47
    Trey_LanceTrey_Lance Posts: 80member
    Beats said:
    Epic thinks they’re entitled to run Apple? What a weird company.

    Some quick facts just to add fuel to the fire:

    Sweeney Turdd is richer than Tim Cook.
    Fortnite sells character animations. Animations that already exist but are behind a paywall.
    Fortnite sells dance animations stolen from black artists without paying them a penny.
    Epic also pays a 30% cut to other companies but somehow only call Apple “greedy”.
    Epic was and would be nothing without Apple. And also, I like to see Sweeney bank transfers from China. Tencent , Epic Parent company, is completely in lock step with Chinese Government. I am from Hong Kong, I know!
    Beatslolliver
  • Reply 24 of 47
    thrangthrang Posts: 867member
    dedgecko said:
    The gas analogy is dumb. Electronic devices run on electricity.

    Apple doesn’t get a cut of our electric bill, unless paying with Apple Card, in which case they take the industry standard for processing the payment.  For credit card payment processing, it’s been a couple percent if I recall correctly. 

    For digital distribution, the industry standard has been 30%.  And it’s slowly been coming down in the typical race to find bottom… and subsequently a quest to subsidize the revenue to cover costs / lost profits.
    The analogies more befitting of this situation:

    - If Mercedes wanted to sell their cars inside BMW dealerships with no permission from BMW and no compensation to BMW.
    - If Epic wanted to set up sales inside all BestBuys with no permission from Best Buy and no compensation to Best Buy.

    Among other more serious issues, Epic's desire is akin to trespassing and theft.

    Apple may be quite popular but it is seriously misguided to think they are a utility-level entity.
    edited May 3 Beatsaderutterlolliver
  • Reply 25 of 47
    Trey_LanceTrey_Lance Posts: 80member
    thrang said:
    dedgecko said:
    The gas analogy is dumb. Electronic devices run on electricity.

    Apple doesn’t get a cut of our electric bill, unless paying with Apple Card, in which case they take the industry standard for processing the payment.  For credit card payment processing, it’s been a couple percent if I recall correctly. 

    For digital distribution, the industry standard has been 30%.  And it’s slowly been coming down in the typical race to find bottom… and subsequently a quest to subsidize the revenue to cover costs / lost profits.
    The analogies more befitting of this situation:

    - If Mercedes wanted to sell their cars inside BMW dealerships with no permission from BMW and no compensation to BMW.
    - If Epic wanted to set up sales inside all BestBuys with no permission from Best Buy and no compensation to Best Buy.

    Among other more serious issues, Epic's desire is akin to trespassing and theft.

    Apple may be quite popular but it is seriously misguided to think they are a utility-level entity.
    Exactly, this case is so clear cut that I am doubting the IQ of the judge who allowed this case to proceed? Maybe like Sweeney, the judge is also getting paid by China! I mean there is no other reason!

    if I take my products to Costco and say I am going to setup on aisle 5 and I will give you 5 bucks and you will like it, what do you think happens to me?

    what kind of horse crap is this?
    lolliver
  • Reply 26 of 47
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,183member
    applguy said:
    mcdave said:
    What are the retail margins on petrol/gasoline? More than 30% I’m thinking.

    The macOS app distribution model is the past, the iOS one is the future.
    The average gross margins for retail gasoline in the USA is roughly 8 to 9%. Once the station pays overhead and processing fees the net margin can be pennies per gallon. It’s not always a great business to be in. 
    The government makes way more with taxes, than the gas station and the oil refinery makes in profit per gallon. The Feds gets !8.4 cents and here in CA, CA gets 50.5 cents in gas tax and about 8 cent in sales tax (2.25%), per gallon. Gas stations with mini-marts, makes more money selling candy, soda, beer and snacks, than they do selling gas.  
    d_2Peza
  • Reply 27 of 47
    dewmedewme Posts: 3,533member
    Epic has clearly revealed their true intent, which is to have the government break Apple's control over its own property, the App Store. Epic's actual claims of financial damages are a non-issue. They are seeking to create a precedent. 

    This whole case reminds my of the Nigerian Prince scams. Anyone with more than a single layer of brain cells above the brain stem level knows that those scams are laughably unbelievable. But they are purposely designed to be laughably unbelievable because only a total idiot would fall for the scam. If you can get someone to actually bite on one of those scams, you've hit pay dirt.  

    I guess we'll see how many stemmers are on the jury.
    lolliver
  • Reply 28 of 47
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,183member

    Quote
    Quizzically, the Epic attorney also likened Apple's App Store to a scenario where if the iPhone was a car, Apple would take 30% of what the driver had to pay for gasoline.

    This is a load of baloney. I don't pay Apple a bent penny when I use one of the Apps on my phone to pay for the charging of my car.  The charging company had my card details. They don't take 30% when I use Apple Pay on my iPhone even for Gas/Petrol.

    I really hope that the Apple legal team objected to that statement. If they didn't then why not?

    Wasn’t the actual quote. It makes sense in context. It falls short only in that the situation applies to apps, not games.
    This isn’t the actual quote and they certainly are not talking about literal gas. It makes sense in context. However it falls short in that the presented situation applies to apps, not games.
    No, it does not make sense in any way. A car is essentially useless, without buying gas for it. But a mobile phone is still essentially perfectly functional, without ever having to pay for any apps. This is why any car and gas analogy with mobile devices and apps, never makes sense, in any context. The the sales of apps on a  mobile device are like the extra money car dealers makes on a car they sold, if the customer brings the car in to for servicing and repair. 

    And car owners are most likely not buying gas from the dealer that sold them the car, which is why the dealer doesn't make anything on the gas sale. But if the gas station was on the dealer's property, the dealer will get a cut of the sales. Epic has a "gas station" on Apple's property. 
    lolliver
  • Reply 29 of 47
    ralphieralphie Posts: 67member
    Sadly macOS is becoming more like iOS.
    d_2
  • Reply 30 of 47
    applguy said:
    Customers switched from iOS to Android because an app cost to much… I’d like to see that study too. 
    I think the larger number is the Android users that refuse to consider iOS because of the App Store policies. I think most users that are on iOS have already decided that being in a better platform and better privacy protections are more important then some anti-competitive App Store policies. It is a lesser evil or greater evil decision.
    edited May 3
  • Reply 31 of 47
    davidw said:

    Quote
    Quizzically, the Epic attorney also likened Apple's App Store to a scenario where if the iPhone was a car, Apple would take 30% of what the driver had to pay for gasoline.

    This is a load of baloney. I don't pay Apple a bent penny when I use one of the Apps on my phone to pay for the charging of my car.  The charging company had my card details. They don't take 30% when I use Apple Pay on my iPhone even for Gas/Petrol.

    I really hope that the Apple legal team objected to that statement. If they didn't then why not?

    Wasn’t the actual quote. It makes sense in context. It falls short only in that the situation applies to apps, not games.
    This isn’t the actual quote and they certainly are not talking about literal gas. It makes sense in context. However it falls short in that the presented situation applies to apps, not games.
    No, it does not make sense in any way. A car is essentially useless, without buying gas for it. But a mobile phone is still essentially perfectly functional, without ever having to pay for any apps. This is why any car and gas analogy with mobile devices and apps, never makes sense, in any context. The the sales of apps on a  mobile device are like the extra money car dealers makes on a car they sold, if the customer brings the car in to for servicing and repair. 

    And car owners are most likely not buying gas from the dealer that sold them the car, which is why the dealer doesn't make anything on the gas sale. But if the gas station was on the dealer's property, the dealer will get a cut of the sales. Epic has a "gas station" on Apple's property. 
    I think you are reading too much in to it, but really all of these analogies are dumb. The App Store is not like a gas station, it’s not like a rail road, and it’s not like a brick and mortar store. We really just need to end all of the nonsense comparisons. I think all the people commenting here with weird analogies is proof in point.
    edited May 3 fastasleep
  • Reply 32 of 47
    flydogflydog Posts: 926member
    cornchip said:
    If Epic wins this in the end (after appeals etc), it will be very, very bad news for a lot of businesses. 

    Hope these clowns get the smackdown they deserve. 
    Epic is owned by a Chinese company with huge Chinese Government ties. Now they are going after America’s biggest company. 

    Is that really hard for some of you to see?
    It's hard to see because Epic is not "owned by a Chinese company."  Tencent received a 40% stake in Epic in exchange for $330 million investment.  Tencent has the right to appoint 2 members to the board, while Epic retains the right to appoint 3.

    Tencent has neither majority ownership nor control over Epic. 

    But hey don't let facts keep you from posting nonsense.  


    fastasleepPeza
  • Reply 33 of 47
    While iOS 14.5 is now restricting ads from third party, it seems Apple doesn't mind auto enabling you their own tracking for advertising algorithms without approval. iOS 14.5 is just a way to increase ads revenue and restrict others. Using app analytics  seems easy for Apple to know exactly what products they should "innovate'' with. Just my thought. on this...
  • Reply 34 of 47
    larryjwlarryjw Posts: 757member
    Quote
    Quizzically, the Epic attorney also likened Apple's App Store to a scenario where if the iPhone was a car, Apple would take 30% of what the driver had to pay for gasoline.

    This is a load of baloney. I don't pay Apple a bent penny when I use one of the Apps on my phone to pay for the charging of my car.  The charging company had my card details. They don't take 30% when I use Apple Pay on my iPhone even for Gas/Petrol.

    I really hope that the Apple legal team objected to that statement. If they didn't then why not?


    I'm pretty sure you can't object to anything in an opening statement (or at least the rules are very different).  The opening statement is just a way for both parties to provide context for the evidence and witnesses they will introduce. You can't object to stupid analogies unless it's used as part of questioning witnesses.
    This is a trial before the judge, not a jury. Things that would be objectionable in front of a jury will not be when addressed to the judge. 

    This is not saying what Epic said would be objectionable to a jury. Actually, these remarks don't sound like anything that would be said to a jury on opening. 
  • Reply 35 of 47
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 5,292member
    While iOS 14.5 is now restricting ads from third party, it seems Apple doesn't mind auto enabling you their own tracking for advertising algorithms without approval. iOS 14.5 is just a way to increase ads revenue and restrict others. Using app analytics  seems easy for Apple to know exactly what products they should "innovate'' with. Just my thought. on this...
    Apple doesn't sell ads.
  • Reply 36 of 47
    9secondkox29secondkox2 Posts: 767member
    Monopoly implies such dominance that there is no competition. 

    Unfortunately for Rpic, Apple has many adversaries and a rival OS with more active installs in android. 

    Sure, android kinda sucks, but plenty use it and it laughs in the face of the monopoly fairy tale. 

  • Reply 37 of 47
    PezaPeza Posts: 178member
    cornchip said:
    If Epic wins this in the end (after appeals etc), it will be very, very bad news for a lot of businesses. 

    Hope these clowns get the smackdown they deserve. 
    Epic is owned by a Chinese company with huge Chinese Government ties. Now they are going after America’s biggest company. 

    Is that really hard for some of you to see?
    The conspiracy theories are starting already... common sense left at the door it seems.
    edited May 4
  • Reply 38 of 47
    PezaPeza Posts: 178member
    Beats said:
    Epic thinks they’re entitled to run Apple? What a weird company.

    Some quick facts just to add fuel to the fire:

    Sweeney Turdd is richer than Tim Cook.
    Fortnite sells character animations. Animations that already exist but are behind a paywall.
    Fortnite sells dance animations stolen from black artists without paying them a penny.
    Epic also pays a 30% cut to other companies but somehow only call Apple “greedy”.
    Epic was and would be nothing without Apple. And also, I like to see Sweeney bank transfers from China. Tencent , Epic Parent company, is completely in lock step with Chinese Government. I am from Hong Kong, I know!
     :D another good post, I'm pretty sure Epic was fairly big and would be just as big if Apple didn't even exist.. they have rather a long history of games and making big profits from those games. And Fortnite is on every platform, it's not exclusive to Apple.
    Seriously just think about what your typing here.. their is NO Chinese conspiracy theory, Apple is NOT the soul reason Epic exists and is a big company.
    edited May 4
  • Reply 39 of 47
    PezaPeza Posts: 178member
    I have to say I don't doubt any of the figures Epic quote in its opening statement, however as huge profits are made from in app purchases, cleverly designed in a way that makes them almost a requirement, then I have little sympathy for them or Apple in this case. Apple does have a monopoly yes, but all everyone seems to want is more money, theirs no morale principle behind any of this, just good old classic greed on both aides. You can argue pros and cons for each sides aspects, but it really is just about greed being obtained from each other's work. Gotta keep those share holders happy after all.
    edited May 4 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 40 of 47
    crowleycrowley Posts: 7,639member
    Beats said:
    Epic thinks they’re entitled to run Apple? What a weird company.

    Some quick facts just to add fuel to the fire:

    Sweeney Turdd is richer than Tim Cook.
    Fortnite sells character animations. Animations that already exist but are behind a paywall.
    Fortnite sells dance animations stolen from black artists without paying them a penny.
    Epic also pays a 30% cut to other companies but somehow only call Apple “greedy”.
    Epic was and would be nothing without Apple. 
    It has already been proven in discovery that Epic gets less than 10% of their revenue from iOS, with the bulk of it coming from PlayStation.  Getting kicked off the app store didn't hurt them them all that much.
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