FTC concludes manufacturer repair restrictions harm consumers

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 82
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    jbtuckr said:
    A lot of people commenting don’t fully understand or know the scope of what this actually means for consumers. As a person who has been repairing iPhones for years, I have a lot of experience with Apple’s anti-repair tactics. 

    With the iPhone 7, apple made Touch ID (as always) be disabled if the home button was replaced due to damage, but they also disabled the 3D input so the button wouldn’t register. It took years to finally come up with a work-around. 

    When the iPhone 8/8plus came out, Apple has it coded into iOS that those devices would disable touchscreen capabilities unless the lcd panel was OEM. This was later “fixed” because it was ridiculous and infuriated many. 

    With the iPhone X-present, apple disabled FaceID if the earpiece/proximity sensor flex cable SN doesn’t match what is hard-coded to the motherboard, same as they did with TouchID except the cameras that actually read your face aren’t part of that cable. It requires going to apple so they can hook it up to a machine (“Horizons”) or their new cloud software to recode it for a HEFTY price. I also vaguely remember something about the wireless charging coil causing problems sofware-locked when replaced. 

    Since the iPhone 8, Apple disabled TrueTone on the device if the screen SN doesn’t match the original screen SN, even if it’s OEM and even though the ambient light sensor is a separate module. 

    When the iPhone 11 was released, Apple started having the phone display a message that says the phone needs service due to a non original apple screen, even if the screen is in fact OEM. That same year, Apple also started making the devices have SN paired batteries as well, meaning another prompt would nag you saying that the battery isn’t original even if it is indeed OEM. The batteries also stopped reporting battery health and will only say Service; every prior iPhone will still tell you the battery health regardless if the replacement battery is OEM or aftermarket. 

    With the iPhone 12 series, Apple added the cameras to the list of SN locked parts that stop functioning when replaced. I haven’t worked on any 12’s yet since they’re so new still (and Ceramic Shield really is amazing), so I don’t know if this is still the case or not.  

    Apple is also just petty in the repairs department, every now and then adding new screw types into the mix(tristar), making it more annoying to repair. 



    For everyone making the “security” argument, this paragraph is for you: If you don’t want repair shops accessing your data, don’t give them your passcode. Apple leads the way in device security, so if you don’t give it to them, there’s no way they can hack into your device. There is currently only one type of machine that can hack an iPhone in the world, it’s called GreyKey and it was made in Israel; it currently costs $50k for government officials only to be able to purchase this machine. Also, when this machine was made aware to apple, they implemented an update that fixes this issue: the lightning port won’t transmit data unless the phone has had the passcode typed into it within an hour timeframe. Before you hand your phone over, either hit the lock button 5 times or reboot your phone and there’s nothing anybody on the planet can do to get into it.
    As a side note to the open-software debate: open software increases the security of a program exponentially. Linux is open software and has virtually no bugs whatsoever. Linux can run on a device for years without having to be rebooted because it has so many eyes and minds constantly searching to fix and improve it.  







    I understand Apple wanting to keep their quality top notch and wanting to preserve secrets and user security, but their repair practices hurt the consumer. Unless you’re getting a battery replacement or screen repair from Apple, you’re going to be paying the full “Other Damage (Out of Warranty)” fee, which is $719 for the iPhone 12 Pro and $599 for the iPhone 12 (to put it in perspective). Other damage includes anything besides the screen or battery, so that price is INSANE. At the shop I work at, repairs for a charge port replacement are $45, cameras are $60, back glass is $70, loudspeaker is $45, battery is $45, etc, all including labor. In short, Apple is exponentially and unethically profiting off of consumers in this aspect. If they don’t want repair shops reproducing their parts and repairing phones, the answer is to make it affordable and expand their price list to include the small-parts, and to lower the prices. Part costs are very cheap for these types of parts. 
    Despite all of this though, Apple does actually have competitive screen repair costs for the quality of their screens. Also, many repair shops skimp out on screens and get the cheapest parts available but still charge full price. Even worse, a lot of shops order LCD panels instead of OLED for phones that use OLED screens, yet still charge the very expensive OLED price. (Also, OLED phones aren’t meant to power LCD screens, so there’s a lot wrong with people doing that in the first place.)
    Anyways, I made my case. Apple needs to reform their repair policies, either by amending  the pricing or by not locking down every component they can any chance they get. 




    It should be noted too that the price apple charges for Iphone repairs will literally buy Apple 2-3 motherboards.   The "Other Damage (Out of Warranty) charges are hilariously high, often much more than the cost of a new Iphone to Apple.   It is a screwing over that few consumers would be happy with in any other aspect of their lives, but because it is tech they bend over and take it.
  • Reply 62 of 82
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,798member
    nicholfd said:
    avon b7 said:
    nicholfd said:
    avon b7 said:
    Beats said:
    avon b7 said:
    This is an important first step and is good news.

    We'll see what comes of it but it is about time that manufacturers began improving their designs to make things easier to repair or upgrade. 


    Can’t wait for removable battery, upgradable ram, flimsy case on my iPhone!!

    Cant wait for every pawn shop in the country to have a dark iPhone/iPad repair shop in the back!!
    There was no problem with removable batteries in the first place. Give me cheap recycled plastic over glass any day.

    These are situations that can be designed for. There is no requirement for glass backed phones, and nano coatings for internal components have been around for years. Technically speaking gaskets aren't even necessary.

    They aren't even a guarantee of water ingress protection either. 

    Phones don't need to be waterproof anyway. Splash proof is more than enough. 


    Glad you know what everyone needs & doesn't need...
    The logic here is simple. If phones needed to be waterproof - they would be.
     
    Going to cut you short here.

    Because something does not exist, does not indicate it is not needed or desired.  Corelation does not indicate causation.  Period.
    And that proves you didn't see the logic behind my opinion. 
    edited May 2021 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 63 of 82
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    BittySon said:
    avon b7 said:
    This is an important first step and is good news.

    We'll see what comes of it but it is about time that manufacturers began improving their designs to make things easier to repair or upgrade. 

    Oh, don’t forget easier to hack, plunder and sabotage.  I’m very satisfied that Apple builds highly secure products that others can’t easily access even in their physical possession.  The focus of the US Government should be on encouraging companies to more fully lock down their hardware and software. 


    Once you have physical access to a device there isn't much Apple can do to stop somebody really determined to get your data.    The arguments about hacking, sabotage and so forth are non-sense to me.   Their may be bad repair businesses but you don't see TV or audio repairmen hacking or sabotaging your equipment.   That isn't done in the 2 way radio business either which has been around longer than cell phones.   You don't see such hacking or sabotage in the auto repair business either.   In any of these niches you find good suppliers and bad suppliers of services, the consumer is free to choose whatever he wants.

    The problem is, and few will say much about this, but my experience with Apple repairs has not been good at all.    The customer side of the business seems to be staffed with idiots that barely know an electron from an oak tree.   The back side of the business seems to focused on screwing the consumer more than anything.   So I don't share the glowing opinion that many have of Apple and their repair business.    I would only use them for warranty repair and frankly I'm not real happy about that.
  • Reply 64 of 82
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    citpeks said:
    I do my own maintenance and repairs on my own stuff, like cars, and generally support the principle of repairable goods.  There is a lot of stuff that's disposable nowadays because consumers only look at price, not quality, and that discourages well-engineered, durable, and repairable products which would have higher costs.

    On the flip side, I also recognize that there are limits to what can feasibly repaired, and this movement, particularly as it relates to electronic devices, has veered into dogma, not unlike the zealotry surrounding open source software a while back, lacking both nuance and pragmatism.
    There's always a flip side to these dogmatic discussions.   Here is Steve's take on open vs closed architectures.   He realizes that his way is not the only way.  But he thinks that it is the best way.  But, he does not disrespect those with opposing, but logical opinions.





    The problem is the right to repair has little to do with closed or open systems.   It is about the ability of third parties to repair those system.   Also it is about the ability of consumers to avoid being ripped off when they do need repairs by having real choices when it comes to repairs.   Apple is knowingly ripping off people over cheap to repair issues and that should upset anybody that expects decent treatment from a corporation.
  • Reply 65 of 82
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    longpath said:
    If replacement parts meet or exceed Apple specifications, and installation techniques are equal better, then it’s all fine and good; but this decision, as was already pointed out, means that second hand items either have to be regarded as less trustworthy, or the consumer needs to be able to evaluate the condition of the internals of a device. Ironically, given the argument of the FTC, this burden would seem to fall squarely on the very population segment that the FTC purports to be concerned about. Conversely, in the used automobile market, it is feasible to check compression on the engine, and to check the onboard diagnostics either for codes or indications that the computer was recently cleared/reset, and the means to perform these tests are readily available. I am fearful that governments will stunt innovation or create security holes by requiring some standardized diagnostic solution; but without such an option, verification of the condition of second hand computers, which smartphones definitely are, becomes an undue burden on the very people such efforts are meant to aid. A person who can only afford a 2nd hand iPhone ought not to have to worry about 3rd rate parts in their new acquisition.

    The fact that Apple has worked on a iphone as apposed to a third party has little to do with the quality of work as Apple has a pretty pathetic record there.   Beyond that if you buy something used, anything for that matter it is assumed that there is wear and tear on that item.   You can't rationally expect a used iphone, or any cell phone for that matter, to be like new.

    Honestly I really think people are dreaming up some of these issues to try to defend their favorite toy company.   It kinda reflects some of the excuses Apple uses to keep from fulfilling their responsibilities under the law.   People need to realize that the Magnussen-Moss Act is from 1975 era and is still valid federal law.  

  • Reply 66 of 82
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    apmiller said:
    I’m really surprised at the Anti-right to repair comments I see here (& related article on A.I.)  No one is forcing you to use an independent repair shop, or buy a used product that might have been repaired by the same.  Just watch a few videos by Louis Rossmann, where he explains the nuances of this issue in detail, with many examples. Laws can be written that protect manufacturers patents and trade secrets, but also allow repairs to take place, saving consumers money, and reducing E-waste. Although the FTC mentions manufacturing choices that make repair or upgrades more difficult (but not impossible, like glued cases & batteries, or soldered on RAM or SSD’s etc), the odds of them forcing Apple, etc. to make them easily swappable again is extremely unlikely. (Apple can cite faster IO speeds - as with M1 chips -  or fewer connection failures for those decisions.) There are many other areas of low hanging fruit, like equal access to OEM quality parts, circuit board schematics (as often included with your furnace or clothes washer), etc. that don’t threaten manufacturers’ legitimate concerns. I get not liking the government to force businesses to do things against their bottom line interests, but remember big corporations are not necessarily your friend either. Are you so anti-government that you don’t see the need for any regulations?
    The issue with schematics is rather interesting and frankly I can't see Apples point of view at all here.   Publishing a schematic for an iphone would not harm them one bit as there are so many custom parts in the design that are Apple only.   It would however do wonders for third party repair businesses.

    Well it would do wonders for the parts they can get.   The problem with Apple is parts designed specifically to make a repair impossible due to control over parts distribution.    This is where the big problem is, if Apple controls the market for common parts, then they have obstructed the ability of third parties to repair known problems with OEM parts.
  • Reply 67 of 82
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    genovelle said:
    There are bigger risks than improper repairs causing batteries to exploded. One issue is that giving everyone access to schematics to repair violates IP protections and opens the door for even more counterfeiting and let’s competitors steal faster. The other issue is that unverified shops will have access to the device with your most sensitive information including passwords, access to banking and financial data, the protection device  in the 2 step verification systems in use out there so they can easily change passcode etc...

    There are a multiple reasons Apple does what it does, including why it doesn’t want to talk a lot about why they do some things. It’s safer for everyone if the criminals aren’t alerted to certain ideas, so they don’t know to focus on them. 

    Where do people get this non sense?   A schematic does not "violate IP protections" whatever that means to you.   You would have to go into the business of actually making something from that schematic, find a source for Apples custom chips and actually get the capital to go into business doing that.

    As for bad technicians doing things they shouldn't do, do you actually believe that doesn't happen at Apple?   There are bad people in every walk of life, that includes the priesthood.  Going through Apple and all the handling your device gets between the store and the repair facility does not assure you of anything in fact it expands your exposure.   If you go to a small shop you literally narrow the exposure you have to bad actors.

    Honestly you must be living in some sort of fantasy land, the only reason Apple does what it does is to  rip off its customer base.   There is no other explanation.   Limiting access to materials and information keeps the ability of the competition to do proper repairs limited.   This drives up the cost of Apple service and makes for a very bad situation for consumers because it eliminates choice.
  • Reply 68 of 82
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    dysamoria said:
    jbtuckr said:
    I’m a strong believer that the parts that are easy to replace in the phones are only there to make it easier for apple’s own technicians, they have made it abundantly clear they only approve of certified repairs. 
    But this, on its own, SHOULD be a perfectly sufficient reason alone to make these things much more serviceable! When a company doesn’t, that shows what their real interests are: throw it away & buy a new one (while putting the cost of all the materials waste on the customer). Apple keeps telling us how environmentally sound they want to be, but they keep showing us they aren’t as interested in that as they want us to think.

    It also shows what they think of their service workers’ quality of life at work: not much. I worked in IT for many years and there’s a definite difference between the build of machines meant for ease of servicing and everything else. Many manufacturers of desktop PCs started out building their computers in asinine ways (requiring disassembly of entirely unrelated parts just to replace one more likely to fail part that should’ve been more accessible), only to make things easier to service over the following years because of their own need to shorten the time spent on their own service jobs.

    Companies that are serious about the service contracts they provide (for their machines installed & serviced by the thousands per day) will build with the ease & speed of their own service jobs in mind. Yeah, Dells are “cheap plastic”, not silent, and they may rattle & creak as they flex, but they’re very easy to service. This ideology could be executed in a much more elegant fashion and we’ve seen Apple do it themselves at times (the original “cheese grater” Mac Pro was very serviceable). There’s no reason why small equipment can’t be engineered with this ideology in place. It just requires the will. Apple isn’t there yet, but maybe we can all pressure them to be... if we don’t offer endless special pleading excuses for them, bowing and scraping in ridiculous cult-like fanaticism.

    Ease of servicing can have a positive impact on environmental issues (if the removed parts are then sent out for proper rebuild or material collection), because the parts aren’t all stuck effectively permanently together, and aren’t demanding $800 worth of materials be replaced when only a $30 component has failed.

    This is a good result for the FTC investigation. Companies should be serving the public good, not damaging it while using every possible way to exploit us and the environment just so they can try to maintain the unsustainable and pathological pursuit of perpetual growth that’s demanded of “investors” and shareholders.

    I've always wondered how Apple as a company justifies their stance against repair and at the same time supposedly championing their green initiatives.    Frankly there is as much stupidity involved in renewables so maybe they some how reinforce the odd opinion that repair is bad.   From an ecological standpoint repair needs to be front and center as it addresses one of the bigger problems in this world which is waste.   The fact that Apple so strongly opposes repair highlights the forked tongue nature of their public opinions.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 69 of 82
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Well one more comment before going onto other things.    I've been involved in the industrial side of repair for decades, handling automation electronics and frankly have a good idea of the costs involved via third party repair services and also DIY with component purchases.   This is why I can say with 100% confidence that Apples primary motivation with their policies is to rip off their customers when it comes to repairs.   The charges that they apply for various programs and repairs is just outrageous and I'm comparing this to products we buy in very low quantities retail.   Everything about Apple is high volume so there is huge costs saving there.  

    As for the reliability of "repair" well as I've said Apple has screwed up there for me and lots of other people.    Sometimes you can have difficult problems, that I'm acutely aware of, but sometimes you just screw up.   In any event, the idea that Apple is somehow perfect when it comes to repair just isn't valid, what is important is how you address customer needs.   A good repair facility will work with you to get your satisfaction.   Frankly it is often far easier to work with the guy down the street than it is with a large corporation, where you are "just another customer".   The reality is you learn over time which path to take for any specific problem.

    Considering the proportion of individuals posting here supporting Apple in some shape or form, I really think you all need to reconsider your opinion.   Apple is absolutely horrible here.   They truly represent the worse in American manufacturing companies with their policies in this area.   Their policies fly in the face of their green initiatives and are abusive of their customers.   This is not something Apple should be proud of.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 70 of 82
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,963member
    Apple has spent millions on green energy sources and sustainability, often touting its efforts but making a device repairable is one of the best ways to reduce environmental impact. The single biggest impact of any device is its manufacture. Of course, that’s where Apple makes its money, too. Heaven forbid their profits get compromised by repairable devices. 
  • Reply 71 of 82
    nicholfdnicholfd Posts: 824member
    wizard69 said:
    Beats said:
    Until Uncle Joe’s repair shop starts messing up everyone’s iPhones while voiding the warranties.

    Then these “right to repair” idiots will blame Apple for Uncle Joe’s failures. 

    The law states warranties are not voided by outside repair unless the company can prove it cause the issue that currently needs repair.  It’s the Magnussen-Moss Act. The burden is on the company to PROVE it. 

    This is the thing; Magnussen-Moss Act, was signed into law in 1975 I believe, probably befor many posting here where even born.    Apple has been thumbing their nose at the act for decades now.   

    Says who?  Evidence?  How do you know Apple has refused service because they stated some modification or 3rd party repair voided the warranty?  

    Proof or it didn't happen!
  • Reply 72 of 82
    nicholfdnicholfd Posts: 824member
    wizard69 said:
    jbtuckr said:
    A lot of people commenting don’t fully understand or know the scope of what this actually means for consumers. As a person who has been repairing iPhones for years, I have a lot of experience with Apple’s anti-repair tactics. 

    With the iPhone 7, apple made Touch ID (as always) be disabled if the home button was replaced due to damage, but they also disabled the 3D input so the button wouldn’t register. It took years to finally come up with a work-around. 

    When the iPhone 8/8plus came out, Apple has it coded into iOS that those devices would disable touchscreen capabilities unless the lcd panel was OEM. This was later “fixed” because it was ridiculous and infuriated many. 

    With the iPhone X-present, apple disabled FaceID if the earpiece/proximity sensor flex cable SN doesn’t match what is hard-coded to the motherboard, same as they did with TouchID except the cameras that actually read your face aren’t part of that cable. It requires going to apple so they can hook it up to a machine (“Horizons”) or their new cloud software to recode it for a HEFTY price. I also vaguely remember something about the wireless charging coil causing problems sofware-locked when replaced. 

    Since the iPhone 8, Apple disabled TrueTone on the device if the screen SN doesn’t match the original screen SN, even if it’s OEM and even though the ambient light sensor is a separate module. 

    When the iPhone 11 was released, Apple started having the phone display a message that says the phone needs service due to a non original apple screen, even if the screen is in fact OEM. That same year, Apple also started making the devices have SN paired batteries as well, meaning another prompt would nag you saying that the battery isn’t original even if it is indeed OEM. The batteries also stopped reporting battery health and will only say Service; every prior iPhone will still tell you the battery health regardless if the replacement battery is OEM or aftermarket. 

    With the iPhone 12 series, Apple added the cameras to the list of SN locked parts that stop functioning when replaced. I haven’t worked on any 12’s yet since they’re so new still (and Ceramic Shield really is amazing), so I don’t know if this is still the case or not.  

    Apple is also just petty in the repairs department, every now and then adding new screw types into the mix(tristar), making it more annoying to repair. 



    For everyone making the “security” argument, this paragraph is for you: If you don’t want repair shops accessing your data, don’t give them your passcode. Apple leads the way in device security, so if you don’t give it to them, there’s no way they can hack into your device. There is currently only one type of machine that can hack an iPhone in the world, it’s called GreyKey and it was made in Israel; it currently costs $50k for government officials only to be able to purchase this machine. Also, when this machine was made aware to apple, they implemented an update that fixes this issue: the lightning port won’t transmit data unless the phone has had the passcode typed into it within an hour timeframe. Before you hand your phone over, either hit the lock button 5 times or reboot your phone and there’s nothing anybody on the planet can do to get into it.
    As a side note to the open-software debate: open software increases the security of a program exponentially. Linux is open software and has virtually no bugs whatsoever. Linux can run on a device for years without having to be rebooted because it has so many eyes and minds constantly searching to fix and improve it.  







    I understand Apple wanting to keep their quality top notch and wanting to preserve secrets and user security, but their repair practices hurt the consumer. Unless you’re getting a battery replacement or screen repair from Apple, you’re going to be paying the full “Other Damage (Out of Warranty)” fee, which is $719 for the iPhone 12 Pro and $599 for the iPhone 12 (to put it in perspective). Other damage includes anything besides the screen or battery, so that price is INSANE. At the shop I work at, repairs for a charge port replacement are $45, cameras are $60, back glass is $70, loudspeaker is $45, battery is $45, etc, all including labor. In short, Apple is exponentially and unethically profiting off of consumers in this aspect. If they don’t want repair shops reproducing their parts and repairing phones, the answer is to make it affordable and expand their price list to include the small-parts, and to lower the prices. Part costs are very cheap for these types of parts. 
    Despite all of this though, Apple does actually have competitive screen repair costs for the quality of their screens. Also, many repair shops skimp out on screens and get the cheapest parts available but still charge full price. Even worse, a lot of shops order LCD panels instead of OLED for phones that use OLED screens, yet still charge the very expensive OLED price. (Also, OLED phones aren’t meant to power LCD screens, so there’s a lot wrong with people doing that in the first place.)
    Anyways, I made my case. Apple needs to reform their repair policies, either by amending  the pricing or by not locking down every component they can any chance they get. 




    It should be noted too that the price apple charges for Iphone repairs will literally buy Apple 2-3 motherboards.   The "Other Damage (Out of Warranty) charges are hilariously high, often much more than the cost of a new Iphone to Apple.   It is a screwing over that few consumers would be happy with in any other aspect of their lives, but because it is tech they bend over and take it.
    Again, says who?  How do you know how much it costs Apple to manufacture one motherboard?  I've never heard of an iPhone repair costing more than a new iPhone.  My family has had their share of iPhone repairs...

    Proof or it's just more BS from you.
    GRKostur
  • Reply 73 of 82
    nicholfdnicholfd Posts: 824member
    avon b7 said:
    nicholfd said:
    avon b7 said:
    nicholfd said:
    avon b7 said:
    Beats said:
    avon b7 said:
    This is an important first step and is good news.

    We'll see what comes of it but it is about time that manufacturers began improving their designs to make things easier to repair or upgrade. 


    Can’t wait for removable battery, upgradable ram, flimsy case on my iPhone!!

    Cant wait for every pawn shop in the country to have a dark iPhone/iPad repair shop in the back!!
    There was no problem with removable batteries in the first place. Give me cheap recycled plastic over glass any day.

    These are situations that can be designed for. There is no requirement for glass backed phones, and nano coatings for internal components have been around for years. Technically speaking gaskets aren't even necessary.

    They aren't even a guarantee of water ingress protection either. 

    Phones don't need to be waterproof anyway. Splash proof is more than enough. 


    Glad you know what everyone needs & doesn't need...
    The logic here is simple. If phones needed to be waterproof - they would be.
     
    Going to cut you short here.

    Because something does not exist, does not indicate it is not needed or desired.  Corelation does not indicate causation.  Period.
    And that proves you didn't see the logic behind my opinion. 
    The only proof is that you don't understand logic.  Login is not changed by "opinion".  Logic is fact.  Opinion is something someone pulled out of their ass.
    DogpersonGRKostur
  • Reply 74 of 82
    nicholfdnicholfd Posts: 824member
    wizard69 said:
    dysamoria said:
    jbtuckr said:
    I’m a strong believer that the parts that are easy to replace in the phones are only there to make it easier for apple’s own technicians, they have made it abundantly clear they only approve of certified repairs. 
    But this, on its own, SHOULD be a perfectly sufficient reason alone to make these things much more serviceable! When a company doesn’t, that shows what their real interests are: throw it away & buy a new one (while putting the cost of all the materials waste on the customer). Apple keeps telling us how environmentally sound they want to be, but they keep showing us they aren’t as interested in that as they want us to think.

    It also shows what they think of their service workers’ quality of life at work: not much. I worked in IT for many years and there’s a definite difference between the build of machines meant for ease of servicing and everything else. Many manufacturers of desktop PCs started out building their computers in asinine ways (requiring disassembly of entirely unrelated parts just to replace one more likely to fail part that should’ve been more accessible), only to make things easier to service over the following years because of their own need to shorten the time spent on their own service jobs.

    Companies that are serious about the service contracts they provide (for their machines installed & serviced by the thousands per day) will build with the ease & speed of their own service jobs in mind. Yeah, Dells are “cheap plastic”, not silent, and they may rattle & creak as they flex, but they’re very easy to service. This ideology could be executed in a much more elegant fashion and we’ve seen Apple do it themselves at times (the original “cheese grater” Mac Pro was very serviceable). There’s no reason why small equipment can’t be engineered with this ideology in place. It just requires the will. Apple isn’t there yet, but maybe we can all pressure them to be... if we don’t offer endless special pleading excuses for them, bowing and scraping in ridiculous cult-like fanaticism.

    Ease of servicing can have a positive impact on environmental issues (if the removed parts are then sent out for proper rebuild or material collection), because the parts aren’t all stuck effectively permanently together, and aren’t demanding $800 worth of materials be replaced when only a $30 component has failed.

    This is a good result for the FTC investigation. Companies should be serving the public good, not damaging it while using every possible way to exploit us and the environment just so they can try to maintain the unsustainable and pathological pursuit of perpetual growth that’s demanded of “investors” and shareholders.

    I've always wondered how Apple as a company justifies their stance against repair and at the same time supposedly championing their green initiatives.    Frankly there is as much stupidity involved in renewables so maybe they some how reinforce the odd opinion that repair is bad.   From an ecological standpoint repair needs to be front and center as it addresses one of the bigger problems in this world which is waste.   The fact that Apple so strongly opposes repair highlights the forked tongue nature of their public opinions.
    WHERE have you seen that Apple is agains repair?!?!?!?!

    Thy just want to guarantee that the repair is by someone qualified and with parts that assure the original quality fo the product.  That's it.  Period.
    GRKostur
  • Reply 75 of 82
    nicholfdnicholfd Posts: 824member
    wizard69 said:
    Well one more comment before going onto other things.    I've been involved in the industrial side of repair for decades, handling automation electronics and frankly have a good idea of the costs involved via third party repair services and also DIY with component purchases.   This is why I can say with 100% confidence that Apples primary motivation with their policies is to rip off their customers when it comes to repairs.   The charges that they apply for various programs and repairs is just outrageous and I'm comparing this to products we buy in very low quantities retail.   Everything about Apple is high volume so there is huge costs saving there.  

    As for the reliability of "repair" well as I've said Apple has screwed up there for me and lots of other people.    Sometimes you can have difficult problems, that I'm acutely aware of, but sometimes you just screw up.   In any event, the idea that Apple is somehow perfect when it comes to repair just isn't valid, what is important is how you address customer needs.   A good repair facility will work with you to get your satisfaction.   Frankly it is often far easier to work with the guy down the street than it is with a large corporation, where you are "just another customer".   The reality is you learn over time which path to take for any specific problem.

    Considering the proportion of individuals posting here supporting Apple in some shape or form, I really think you all need to reconsider your opinion.   Apple is absolutely horrible here.   They truly represent the worse in American manufacturing companies with their policies in this area.   Their policies fly in the face of their green initiatives and are abusive of their customers.   This is not something Apple should be proud of.
    Glad this is your last comment, because all I hear is "blah, blah, blah, I want, my opinion, no facts, BS."

    Thanks.
  • Reply 76 of 82
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,798member
    nicholfd said:
    avon b7 said:
    nicholfd said:
    avon b7 said:
    nicholfd said:
    avon b7 said:
    Beats said:
    avon b7 said:
    This is an important first step and is good news.

    We'll see what comes of it but it is about time that manufacturers began improving their designs to make things easier to repair or upgrade. 


    Can’t wait for removable battery, upgradable ram, flimsy case on my iPhone!!

    Cant wait for every pawn shop in the country to have a dark iPhone/iPad repair shop in the back!!
    There was no problem with removable batteries in the first place. Give me cheap recycled plastic over glass any day.

    These are situations that can be designed for. There is no requirement for glass backed phones, and nano coatings for internal components have been around for years. Technically speaking gaskets aren't even necessary.

    They aren't even a guarantee of water ingress protection either. 

    Phones don't need to be waterproof anyway. Splash proof is more than enough. 


    Glad you know what everyone needs & doesn't need...
    The logic here is simple. If phones needed to be waterproof - they would be.
     
    Going to cut you short here.

    Because something does not exist, does not indicate it is not needed or desired.  Corelation does not indicate causation.  Period.
    And that proves you didn't see the logic behind my opinion. 
    The only proof is that you don't understand logic.  Login is not changed by "opinion".  Logic is fact.  Opinion is something someone pulled out of their ass.
    Sit back and take a deep breath for a moment.

    Did you even consider why I put logic and opinion into the same sentence in the first place? 

    Probably not. That's because you are being pedantic.

    There is no academic use of logic here. No laws of logic or logic/fallacies.

    Away from that sphere, are you completely unaware that it can be used in a completely casual, non-academic way? 

    Are you also unaware that that use is also, and by far, the most common? 


    muthuk_vanalingamMplsPchemengin1
  • Reply 77 of 82
    I find it funny that any reasonable person would take their $1000 buck iPhone (or whatever other Apple device) to some 3r party repair shop because their service is like a 100 bucks cheaper. That's being penny wise, buck fool...

    I know out of warranty repairs by Apple are costly, and cumbersome to use if you don't happen to live nearby an Apple Store (or an authorized repair center), but IMHO they are well worth the cost and hassle. Last time I had trouble with any Apple hardware, it was 8 years ago with a 2 year old iPhone 4S. The nearest Apple Store is 500 miles from where I live, so I had to send the device by mail. It got misplaced in transit, and Apple simply sent over a new one. Now that's quality service and guaranteed satisfaction. Quite different from some horror stories I've heard from some colleagues that got their "top tier" Android to some local shops. They were the ones that ended having to purchase a new device.
    GRKostur
  • Reply 78 of 82
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,963member
    I find it funny that any reasonable person would take their $1000 buck iPhone (or whatever other Apple device) to some 3r party repair shop because their service is like a 100 bucks cheaper. That's being penny wise, buck fool...

    I know out of warranty repairs by Apple are costly, and cumbersome to use if you don't happen to live nearby an Apple Store (or an authorized repair center), but IMHO they are well worth the cost and hassle. Last time I had trouble with any Apple hardware, it was 8 years ago with a 2 year old iPhone 4S. The nearest Apple Store is 500 miles from where I live, so I had to send the device by mail. It got misplaced in transit, and Apple simply sent over a new one. Now that's quality service and guaranteed satisfaction. Quite different from some horror stories I've heard from some colleagues that got their "top tier" Android to some local shops. They were the ones that ended having to purchase a new device.
    Probably for the same reason that thousands of reasonable people take their cars to private repair shops rather than to dealers. Why would any reasonable person pay $100 more than they need to?

    You talk as if nobody but Apple is capable of providing quality service - I’ve taken iPads to local shops and had excellent service there, too, but you apparently think nobody should have that choice. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 79 of 82
    MplsP said:
    Probably for the same reason that thousands of reasonable people take their cars to private repair shops rather than to dealers. Why would any reasonable person pay $100 more than they need to?

    You talk as if nobody but Apple is capable of providing quality service - I’ve taken iPads to local shops and had excellent service there, too, but you apparently think nobody should have that choice. 
    Are you sore from sitting in front of a computer the whole weekend? Just so you know: I was just commenting on a forum. Neither have I a stake in the issue at hand, nor am I part of any legislative body.

    Quality parts (OEM or otherwise) cost money. A qualified technician time also costs money. Apple offers a kind of "insurance" during the whole time the device isn't in my hands, and that costs money too. I'm willing to pay for all that, if I see the value, which is most often.

    Now that doesn't make me against the right to repair. Just last month I've replaced the flat cable in my MBP after the touchpad and keyboard went dead. The part cost 12 % of the service I'd have paid to Apple. Now, I have a Ph.D. in electrical engineering with free access to all tools I'd need for the service, which took all of 20 minutes to perform. So yeah, the availability of the parts got me a 88 % savings.

    Trouble is, if I were to make a living doing repair jobs, I'd surely charge more than Apple does, specially if I was liable for any reasonable service warranty.

    Now those proposed bills floating around aren't about that, because we already can do that, as I myself did. They are about changing hardware design to appease some folks who grew up desoldering transistors from PCBs and bringing CRT televisions back to life. Except that electronics are not like that anymore, and never will be again. Soldered RAM isn't there to make repairs untenable, soldered RAM removes a major point of failure that was the DIMM slot itself.

    In my own example that is self evident. It was a 10 bucks flat cable that crippled my MBP for a week! That was one of the easily serviceable parts that some guys seems to love beyond reason. If my 5 year old MBP was designed like the newer ones, it wouldn't even have that goddamned flat cable to begin with.

    Integrated designs are better and more reliable. That is just a fact, supported by real world data. Good thing that we are not under duress to buy Apple hardware. We can chose to buy from some brands that are happy to sell us devices that assemble and disassemble like LEGOs. Remember project ARA?
  • Reply 80 of 82
    avon b7 said:

    When I had an iPhone battery replaced, they wouldn't even touch it until I had signed acceptance of potential damage and their proposed solution (getting back a damaged phone or the option of a substitute equivalent refurbished phone at xxx price).



    That’s not the policy. If the repair fails, you may get a remanufactured, not refurbished, phone (Apple remanufactured is “as new”) AT THE COST OF THE BATTERY REPLACEMENT.
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