My point is that you can't expect civility and respect in an environment where the objective is to eliminate the enemy. And if you blink, you just might be the eliminated.
Yes and no.
Saddam do not give a shit of the geneva convention. I think he won't kill or torture these soldiers to show a good image of him-self around the world. But i fear for these prisonners in the last time of the war. If Saddam see he is finnish, he will certainly seek revange and order to kill them. There is so many charges against Saddam, (100 000 deaths among his own citizens for example) that one more charge won't bother him( i think that he will comit suicide however, like Hitler).
In an another side, the people in charges of the prisonners of war, have a chance to survive of this war. For their future it will be better for them, that they take good care of these prisonners. The threat of Bush was for them and not for Saddam.
So in short : at war, people who will die whatever don't give a shit about the geneva convention, but people who want to live and who know they are going to loose the war have great interest to follow this convention.
How anyone can rationally equate how US treats its prisoners vs how Iraq treats its prisoners is baffling. Try looking up some of the accounts of torture performed upon US POW's from the 1st Iraq war. I feel extremely concerned as to what may happen to the woman prisoner in a gov't that employs professional rapists as a job occupation.
Where we get these "execution style" remarks is from reporters first hand comments after seeing the videos. From what I understand it was described as 5 dead US soliders, 5 head shots. Sure... coincidence my ass.
Half these comments I see are simply anti-U.S. under the guise of anti-war, and bare little rational thought. Then there's Satchmomo. I don't know what to say about him. Probably tortures small animals for fun or something.
And to Crustibooga and his lack of logic regarding WOMD (in particular chem weapons)... dude get a clue. First of all I don't think it would be in Iraq's interest to use them at all, due to the fact that our troops are much better prepared than their own troops. Secondly, as someone pointed out, theres better places and times tactically to use them that have not presented themselves yet. Thirdly, if Iraq uses them they prove us right.
However I don't rule it out as a last ditch effort, but hope it doesn't happen as civilians and their own troops will suffer the worst of it.
Half these comments I see are simply anti-U.S. under the guise of anti-war, and bare little rational thought. Then there's Satchmomo. I don't know what to say about him. Probably tortures small animals for fun or something.
Most here can carry on a debate without resorting to insults.
No I didn't see it personally, I was just going off of what reporters on TV had said of their impressions of the video.
But its not like I have an unfounded conclusion. So please don't act like I'm coming out of nowhere with this. If I can find some online accounts of American POW's during the first Iraq war I'll surely post them (I can't remember the names of the ex-pow's i saw on tv the other night but I'll keep looking)..
In the meantime here's an article on Iraqi torture and executions. I encourage all you anti-war people to read this acount below to be sure you know the kind of regime you are so adamantly defending.
I'll allow you draw your own conclusions as to the types of things they may do to the American prisoners if this is what they do to their own people...
While we all hope that those captured US (and now British) soldiers come home alive and well, poor terrified bastards, does anyone remember those prisoners in Guantanamo Bay? Well, two of them have been beaten to death. They're being deprived sleep and denied pain killers. I saw them on TV with bags on their heads.
Yeah and I guess its ok to say what is in effect as "**** it Saddam's regime can do whatever he wants with US soldiers, I don't care it war"... please.
Thats insulting to me and the people out there risking their lives. You came off as an very un-compassionate insensitive individual, yet you take offense at me taking a little corny jab at you? Thats funny, it really is.
First of all when did I ever say the stuff in Guantamo Bay is 'OK'? That isn't the point here, but I'll humor you.
As far as I know, the people in Camp X-Ray are NOT prisoners of war and there not held to the same rules of conduct as cited by Geneva Convention. Anything we may have been accused of doing there (I admittedly haven't done much research on it), will assuredly be a FAR CRY from the atrocities committed in past by Saddam's regime. What a joke. Even if there is some legimate prisoner abuse there (EDIT: by this I mean "a legitimately proven case of abuse of prisoners"), in what way exactly does this justify any mis-treatment of our US POWs by Iraq?
That is the crux of what all the anti-war(anti-america) people seem to be saying here....
"blah blah but look what America did over here blah blah"
... gotta love the selective bleeding heart mentality, one again deflecting the point.
Yeah and I guess its ok to say what is in effect as "**** it Saddam's regime can do whatever he wants with US soldiers, I don't care it war"... please.
Thats insulting to me and the people out there risking their lives. You came off as an very un-compassionate insensitive individual, yet you take offense at me taking a little corny jab at you? Thats funny, it really is.
No, I'm not offended by corny jabs that have no merit.
But, I find it amusing how some here are now crying about not playing by the rules. It was okay to parade Iraqi POW's but not Americans. You can't have it both ways.
I suspect many pro-war supporters thought that this was going to be a cakewalk..especially after the first few days. Well, seeing American soldiers beaten and killed is horrifying and sickening. But it does bring the reality of war home.
As I've said, it's war so suck it up and accept that your enemy has no regard for POW's or any frickin' geneva convention.
As far as I know, the people in Camp X-Ray are NOT prisoners of war and there not held to the same rules of conduct as cited by Geneva Convention.
1) Yes, but their mistreatment denies you the right to be outraged. You don't have the moral high ground any more.
2) Simply declaring that they aren't POWs doesn't legitimate beating the shit out of them.
And does anyone know exactly why they aren't POWs, by the way?
Quote:
Originally posted by dviant
Even if there is some legimate prisoner abuse there, in what way exactly does this justify any mis-treatment of our US POWs by Iraq?
1) What is 'legitimate prisoner abuse' exactly?
2) It in no way justifies the disgusting behaviour of the Iraqi army. It's just that you can hardly object on moral grounds if your own army's behaving the same way.
I dont think demanding that our POW's not be tortured or killed is out of line. It's a demand that should made to keep pressure on Iraq to stay within the Geneva convention. I don't think most people have any disillusions as to what happens in war (at least I don't), but prisoners should still be treated as fairly as possible.
The footage shown of Iraqi POW's is far different than the up close personal interviews of US POW's and dead shown on Al-Jazeera.
Better point out that's there's no doubt that the US treats its POWs in Iraq better than the Iraqis. I'd like to debate this with Donald Rumsfeld but I doubt he uses a Mac. And he's probably too busy for this anyway.
Hassam, who says I agreed with any kind of abuse at Camp X-Ray? You also took my "legimate abuse" wrong. I meant it as "if US was proven to have legimately abused prisoners", not "whatever is going on there is legitmate". Know what I mean?
So yes I can and do still object on moral grounds...
it's out of line to invade a country and expect your soldiers to be treated well. I don't give a flying pig about Saddam, but I sure understand why his men would put a bullet in the head of a US soldier.
I encourage all you anti-war people to read this acount below to be sure you know the kind of regime you are so adamantly defending.
I don't understand why so many in the pro-war camp find themselves compelled to equate opposition to the war with support for Saddam Hussein. I do not know very many people who support the war, but I do not know one single person that supports or would attempt to defend Hussein. Is it so difficult to comprehend that an individual might find the actions taken by the Bush administration difficult to justify - while still recognizing Hussein as a Bad Man?
Quote:
Even if there is some legimate prisoner abuse there, in what way exactly does this justify any mis-treatment of our US POWs by Iraq?
The abuse of prisoners of war (whether or not the detaining power recognizes them as such - and it should be noted that there is a clause in the articles of the Geneva Convention that provides the detainees in Guantanamo Bay with POW status, despite what the Bush administration has decided to claim) is never justifiable. Equally, there is no such thing as 'legitimate prisoner abuse'.
Comments
Originally posted by satchmo
My point is that you can't expect civility and respect in an environment where the objective is to eliminate the enemy. And if you blink, you just might be the eliminated.
Yes and no.
Saddam do not give a shit of the geneva convention. I think he won't kill or torture these soldiers to show a good image of him-self around the world. But i fear for these prisonners in the last time of the war. If Saddam see he is finnish, he will certainly seek revange and order to kill them. There is so many charges against Saddam, (100 000 deaths among his own citizens for example) that one more charge won't bother him( i think that he will comit suicide however, like Hitler).
In an another side, the people in charges of the prisonners of war, have a chance to survive of this war. For their future it will be better for them, that they take good care of these prisonners. The threat of Bush was for them and not for Saddam.
So in short : at war, people who will die whatever don't give a shit about the geneva convention, but people who want to live and who know they are going to loose the war have great interest to follow this convention.
Where we get these "execution style" remarks is from reporters first hand comments after seeing the videos. From what I understand it was described as 5 dead US soliders, 5 head shots. Sure... coincidence my ass.
Half these comments I see are simply anti-U.S. under the guise of anti-war, and bare little rational thought. Then there's Satchmomo. I don't know what to say about him. Probably tortures small animals for fun or something.
And to Crustibooga and his lack of logic regarding WOMD (in particular chem weapons)... dude get a clue. First of all I don't think it would be in Iraq's interest to use them at all, due to the fact that our troops are much better prepared than their own troops. Secondly, as someone pointed out, theres better places and times tactically to use them that have not presented themselves yet. Thirdly, if Iraq uses them they prove us right.
However I don't rule it out as a last ditch effort, but hope it doesn't happen as civilians and their own troops will suffer the worst of it.
Originally posted by dviant
From what I understand it was described as 5 dead US soliders, 5 head shots. Sure... coincidence my ass.
well, there was never 5 head-shots shown. But how would you know, since your media censors these pictures?
Still doesn't stop you from drawing conclusions, does it?
Originally posted by dviant
Half these comments I see are simply anti-U.S. under the guise of anti-war, and bare little rational thought. Then there's Satchmomo. I don't know what to say about him. Probably tortures small animals for fun or something.
Most here can carry on a debate without resorting to insults.
But its not like I have an unfounded conclusion. So please don't act like I'm coming out of nowhere with this. If I can find some online accounts of American POW's during the first Iraq war I'll surely post them (I can't remember the names of the ex-pow's i saw on tv the other night but I'll keep looking)..
In the meantime here's an article on Iraqi torture and executions. I encourage all you anti-war people to read this acount below to be sure you know the kind of regime you are so adamantly defending.
Rape, murder are Saddam's trademark
I'll allow you draw your own conclusions as to the types of things they may do to the American prisoners if this is what they do to their own people...
How is this different? In what way is this 'OK'?
Yeah and I guess its ok to say what is in effect as "**** it Saddam's regime can do whatever he wants with US soldiers, I don't care it war"... please.
Thats insulting to me and the people out there risking their lives. You came off as an very un-compassionate insensitive individual, yet you take offense at me taking a little corny jab at you? Thats funny, it really is.
First of all when did I ever say the stuff in Guantamo Bay is 'OK'? That isn't the point here, but I'll humor you.
As far as I know, the people in Camp X-Ray are NOT prisoners of war and there not held to the same rules of conduct as cited by Geneva Convention. Anything we may have been accused of doing there (I admittedly haven't done much research on it), will assuredly be a FAR CRY from the atrocities committed in past by Saddam's regime. What a joke. Even if there is some legimate prisoner abuse there (EDIT: by this I mean "a legitimately proven case of abuse of prisoners"), in what way exactly does this justify any mis-treatment of our US POWs by Iraq?
That is the crux of what all the anti-war(anti-america) people seem to be saying here....
"blah blah but look what America did over here blah blah"
... gotta love the selective bleeding heart mentality, one again deflecting the point.
Originally posted by dviant
Sensitivmo-
Yeah and I guess its ok to say what is in effect as "**** it Saddam's regime can do whatever he wants with US soldiers, I don't care it war"... please.
Thats insulting to me and the people out there risking their lives. You came off as an very un-compassionate insensitive individual, yet you take offense at me taking a little corny jab at you? Thats funny, it really is.
No, I'm not offended by corny jabs that have no merit.
But, I find it amusing how some here are now crying about not playing by the rules. It was okay to parade Iraqi POW's but not Americans. You can't have it both ways.
I suspect many pro-war supporters thought that this was going to be a cakewalk..especially after the first few days. Well, seeing American soldiers beaten and killed is horrifying and sickening. But it does bring the reality of war home.
As I've said, it's war so suck it up and accept that your enemy has no regard for POW's or any frickin' geneva convention.
Originally posted by dviant
Hassan-
As far as I know, the people in Camp X-Ray are NOT prisoners of war and there not held to the same rules of conduct as cited by Geneva Convention.
1) Yes, but their mistreatment denies you the right to be outraged. You don't have the moral high ground any more.
2) Simply declaring that they aren't POWs doesn't legitimate beating the shit out of them.
And does anyone know exactly why they aren't POWs, by the way?
Originally posted by dviant
Even if there is some legimate prisoner abuse there, in what way exactly does this justify any mis-treatment of our US POWs by Iraq?
1) What is 'legitimate prisoner abuse' exactly?
2) It in no way justifies the disgusting behaviour of the Iraqi army. It's just that you can hardly object on moral grounds if your own army's behaving the same way.
I dont think demanding that our POW's not be tortured or killed is out of line. It's a demand that should made to keep pressure on Iraq to stay within the Geneva convention. I don't think most people have any disillusions as to what happens in war (at least I don't), but prisoners should still be treated as fairly as possible.
The footage shown of Iraqi POW's is far different than the up close personal interviews of US POW's and dead shown on Al-Jazeera.
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
2) Simply declaring that they aren't POWs doesn't legitimate beating the shit out of them.
How about just beating them to death like we already have?
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
And does anyone know exactly why they aren't POWs, by the way?
Because as long as they're not POWs we can beat them to death without having to worry about that silly Geneva Convention.
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
1) What is 'legitimate prisoner abuse' exactly?
As far as I can tell if the U.S. tortures and beats someone to death, that's OK. But if a U.S. solder is put on camera that means we should nuke Iraq.
So yes I can and do still object on moral grounds...
Just found out why the Guantanamo Bay prisoners aren't POWs.
Apparently they're 'Unlawful Combatants', which is a status that doesn't exist in international law.
Apparently they should either be tried or released, but since it's an off-shore base, American law doesn't apply there.
Hey ho. Who's going to argue with the US of A?
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Hey ho. Who's going to argue with the US of A?
They should be treated as POWs.
Oops! I forgot to feign blind allegiance to everything the government does. I guess I can't support the war then!
Here is a most relevant article:
http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/200303240034099.php
I encourage all you anti-war people to read this acount below to be sure you know the kind of regime you are so adamantly defending.
I don't understand why so many in the pro-war camp find themselves compelled to equate opposition to the war with support for Saddam Hussein. I do not know very many people who support the war, but I do not know one single person that supports or would attempt to defend Hussein. Is it so difficult to comprehend that an individual might find the actions taken by the Bush administration difficult to justify - while still recognizing Hussein as a Bad Man?
Even if there is some legimate prisoner abuse there, in what way exactly does this justify any mis-treatment of our US POWs by Iraq?
The abuse of prisoners of war (whether or not the detaining power recognizes them as such - and it should be noted that there is a clause in the articles of the Geneva Convention that provides the detainees in Guantanamo Bay with POW status, despite what the Bush administration has decided to claim) is never justifiable. Equally, there is no such thing as 'legitimate prisoner abuse'.