Apple increases reliance on Chinese suppliers

Posted:
in General Discussion edited June 2
Nearly one-third of the companies that Apple has added to its list of suppliers in the past three years are from mainland China, bucking talk of Apple reducing its reliance on the country.

Credit: Foxconn
Credit: Foxconn


Among the 52 new companies that Apple added to its supply chain since 2017, 15 are located in mainland China, the South China Morning Post reported Tuesday. Several of those companies are based in Shenzhen, while others are from Jiangsu.

Apple also added seven companies from the U.S. and seven companies from Taiwan to its supplier list between 2017 and 2020.

The prevalence of Chinese-based firms on the list underscores Apple's reliance on China, and the country's overall importance to the global technology supply chain during the coronavirus pandemic.

Foxconn, for example, began offering cash incentives in recent months to attract new workers amid the busy production season. In India, by contrast, Foxconn has had to cut production output by about 50% because of the COVID-19 situation there.

The number of Chinese suppliers added to Apple's shortlist also defies trade tensions between U.S. and China during the Trump administration and talks of economic decoupling amid increasing scrutiny of Chinese suppliers.

According to the South China Morning Post, the 200 companies on Apple's 2020 supplier list make up about 98% of the company's direct spend for materials, manufacturing, and assembly. About 80% of those suppliers have at least one facility in China.

Apple's reliance on China has come under scrutiny in recent years. Tech investor Peter Thiel back in April, for example, called Apple's relationship with China a "real problem." A group of U.S. lawmakers also urged Apple to exit China in May.

Apple has been accused of making a number of efforts to appease Beijing, including storing Chinese user data on locally owned servers and removing apps that run afoul of local regulations.

Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China, specifically about allegations of companies using coerced labor. In May, a report indicated that at least seven Apple suppliers participated in labor programs suspected of oppressing minorities in China.

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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 35
    genovellegenovelle Posts: 1,262member
    The problem is that China helps our devices remain affordable. In part by keeping the development cost in line, but also by doubling Apple’s sales volume and revenue. More sales allows for lower costs overall. No one outside of China has the experience to make high tech devices at the scale required because they have the skilled labor and supply chain to support it. 
    StrangeDaysjony0
  • Reply 2 of 35
    It doesn’t make sense to rely too much on China. It would be better to diversify and make deals in other Asian countries like India and Vietnam
  • Reply 3 of 35
    coolfactorcoolfactor Posts: 1,833member

    This is not unreasonable...
    Apple has been accused of making a number of efforts to appease Beijing, including storing Chinese user data on locally owned servers

    As a Canadian, I, too, would prefer that my data be on Canadian servers, not in the US. As a web app developer, I always choose Canadian hosting first. There is nothing wrong with keeping data within the borders of your own country. This should not be frowned upon.

    bloggerblogapplguyjony0
  • Reply 4 of 35
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,007member
    coolfactor said:
    This is not unreasonable...
    Apple has been accused of making a number of efforts to appease Beijing, including storing Chinese user data on locally owned servers

    As a Canadian, I, too, would prefer that my data be on Canadian servers, not in the US. As a web app developer, I always choose Canadian hosting first. There is nothing wrong with keeping data within the borders of your own country. This should not be frowned upon.
    In principal I agree.  But if I were a knowledgeable Chinese citizen I would prefer that iCloud servers on Chinese soil were owned and operated by Apple.  While Apple needs to comply with Chinese law, they would at least have visibility of the volume and type of Chinese law enforcement requests for information and Apple would be able to challenge any unusual requests in court.  With local third parties in possession of that data, the Chinese government will have a largely free hand to access any information they want anytime they want regardless of the law.  The rule of law is still weak on the Chinese mainland.
    edited June 1 StrangeDays
  • Reply 5 of 35
    mike54mike54 Posts: 465member
    There is nothing wrong with that. China is an amazing country with has manufactured Apple products is quality and in quantity. Have nothing against China at all despite what the US media and gov conveys.
  • Reply 6 of 35
    23 new companies are outside greater China and US since 2017.  Where are they located? A study of them may shed some light on whether shifting supply chain out of China is feasible. 
  • Reply 7 of 35
    "Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"

    Here we go again.
    The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc.
    First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.

    At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again. 

    (In various resolutions practically all the countries  condemning China are Western  except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.

    At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan,  etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang . 

    Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc,  the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy.  )

    Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.


    jony0
  • Reply 8 of 35
    They did do so, but you can see the COVID19 impact, a lot of Indian and Vietnam branch factories had been shut down in recent month...
  • Reply 9 of 35
    danoxdanox Posts: 599member
    It doesn’t make sense to rely too much on China. It would be better to diversify and make deals in other Asian countries like India and Vietnam
    India is a basket case will never measure up to China, in the end Apple needs to do something in the US and Europe. Relying totally on slave wages needs to end.
  • Reply 11 of 35
    ajmasajmas Posts: 579member
    It doesn’t make sense to rely too much on China. It would be better to diversify and make deals in other Asian countries like India and Vietnam
    It would be, but in order to do that you would first need the availability of equivalent manufacturing elsewhere. China doesn't just have a lot of manufacturing capability, but also the eco system of parts supply that goes with it.

    Consider that what China has is the equivalent of Silicon Vally, but for manufacturing. Replicating that elsewhere is more than just opening up a factory, since a factory also involves maintenance and the easy access of affordable parts for doing so. Consider that China has shopping malls where you can just walk in and buy parts to repair a production line for a fraction of the price it would cost in the US. Read up on Guangzhou and you'll see that simply opening a single factory elsewhere won't be enough to move manufacturing away from China.
  • Reply 12 of 35
    DaRevDaRev Posts: 26member
    The problem was opening despotic Chinese regime into America and world affairs.  China now controls manufacturing as most west civilizations have moved past the Industrial Age into the outsourcing can’t do for ourselves stage.

    genovelle said:
    The problem is that China helps our devices remain affordable. In part by keeping the development cost in line, but also by doubling Apple’s sales volume and revenue. More sales allows for lower costs overall. No one outside of China has the experience to make high tech devices at the scale required because they have the skilled labor and supply chain to support it. 

  • Reply 13 of 35
    williamhwilliamh Posts: 802member
    ajmas said:
    It doesn’t make sense to rely too much on China. It would be better to diversify and make deals in other Asian countries like India and Vietnam
    It would be, but in order to do that you would first need the availability of equivalent manufacturing elsewhere. China doesn't just have a lot of manufacturing capability, but also the eco system of parts supply that goes with it.

    Consider that what China has is the equivalent of Silicon Vally, but for manufacturing. Replicating that elsewhere is more than just opening up a factory, since a factory also involves maintenance and the easy access of affordable parts for doing so. Consider that China has shopping malls where you can just walk in and buy parts to repair a production line for a fraction of the price it would cost in the US. Read up on Guangzhou and you'll see that simply opening a single factory elsewhere won't be enough to move manufacturing away from China. 
    Ajmas, you make a good point about the current status quo in the other countries but I disagree that you "first need the availability of equivalent manufacturing elsewhere."  China didn't build all the infrastructure first and then Apple and the rest came to use it.  It was the other way around where companies did what they could with the available infrastructure and the rest built up to support it and expand it, and companies like Apple also helped build it.  That surely takes time, but it would be worthwhile to reduce risk to Apple (and the US and others)  to expand capabilities elsewhere.  

    I'm not going to discuss my views of the Chinese government, they don't matter. The risk is having too many eggs in one basket,  You never know what will happen. It would be risky to depend too much on any place - California or wherever.
    edited June 2 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 14 of 35
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 11,561member

    This is not unreasonable...
    Apple has been accused of making a number of efforts to appease Beijing, including storing Chinese user data on locally owned servers
    As a Canadian, I, too, would prefer that my data be on Canadian servers, not in the US. As a web app developer, I always choose Canadian hosting first. There is nothing wrong with keeping data within the borders of your own country. This should not be frowned upon.
    LOL. Yeah local hosting sounds great...except when that local data is the property of a brutal authoritarian regime that has no qualms of imprisoning you, harvesting your organs, murdering you, or waging genocide against your people.

    Sounds peachy.
  • Reply 15 of 35
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 11,561member
    davewrite said:
    "Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"

    Here we go again.
    The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc.
    First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.

    At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again. 

    (In various resolutions practically all the countries  condemning China are Western  except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.

    At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan,  etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang . 

    Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc,  the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy.  )

    Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.


    Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-rights-un/u-n-says-it-has-credible-reports-that-china-holds-million-uighurs-in-secret-camps-idUSKBN1KV1SU

    And numerous others. Genocide finding:

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/09/asia/china-uyghurs-xinjiang-genocide-report-intl-hnk/index.html

    Organ harvesting:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646 

    https://www.businessinsider.com/china-harvesting-organs-of-uighur-muslims-china-tribunal-tells-un-2019-9 

    Camps

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50511063 

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/features/uighurs/ 

    ...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
    edited June 2 tmay
  • Reply 16 of 35
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,895member
    davewrite said:
    "Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"

    Here we go again.
    The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc.
    First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.

    At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again. 

    (In various resolutions practically all the countries  condemning China are Western  except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.

    At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan,  etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang . 

    Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc,  the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy.  )

    Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.


    Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-rights-un/u-n-says-it-has-credible-reports-that-china-holds-million-uighurs-in-secret-camps-idUSKBN1KV1SU

    And numerous others. Genocide finding:

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/09/asia/china-uyghurs-xinjiang-genocide-report-intl-hnk/index.html

    Organ harvesting:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646 

    https://www.businessinsider.com/china-harvesting-organs-of-uighur-muslims-china-tribunal-tells-un-2019-9 

    Camps

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50511063 

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/features/uighurs/ 

    ...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
    Common sense needs to be applied here.

    First link. What conclusion did the UN reach? 

    That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.

    I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.

    If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.

    The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.

    I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from. 
    edited June 2 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 17 of 35
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,418member
    avon b7 said:
    davewrite said:
    "Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"

    Here we go again.
    The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc.
    First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.

    At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again. 

    (In various resolutions practically all the countries  condemning China are Western  except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.

    At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan,  etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang . 

    Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc,  the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy.  )

    Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.


    Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-rights-un/u-n-says-it-has-credible-reports-that-china-holds-million-uighurs-in-secret-camps-idUSKBN1KV1SU

    And numerous others. Genocide finding:

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/09/asia/china-uyghurs-xinjiang-genocide-report-intl-hnk/index.html

    Organ harvesting:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646 

    https://www.businessinsider.com/china-harvesting-organs-of-uighur-muslims-china-tribunal-tells-un-2019-9 

    Camps

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50511063 

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/features/uighurs/ 

    ...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
    Common sense needs to be applied here.

    First link. What conclusion did the UN reach? 

    That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.

    I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.

    If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.

    The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.

    I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. 

  • Reply 18 of 35
    danoxdanox Posts: 599member
    Japan, Korea, and Germany seem to be able to still make things at home that are vital to their country the UK, and America first move by the over paid CEO’s is to sellout. Stop making excuses Apple 400 billion dollars profit still spends like 550 billion dollars profit.
  • Reply 19 of 35
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,418member
    avon b7 said:
    davewrite said:
    "Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"

    Here we go again.
    The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc.
    First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.

    At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again. 

    (In various resolutions practically all the countries  condemning China are Western  except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.

    At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan,  etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang . 

    Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc,  the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy.  )

    Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.


    Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-rights-un/u-n-says-it-has-credible-reports-that-china-holds-million-uighurs-in-secret-camps-idUSKBN1KV1SU

    And numerous others. Genocide finding:

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/09/asia/china-uyghurs-xinjiang-genocide-report-intl-hnk/index.html

    Organ harvesting:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646 

    https://www.businessinsider.com/china-harvesting-organs-of-uighur-muslims-china-tribunal-tells-un-2019-9 

    Camps

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50511063 

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/features/uighurs/ 

    ...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
    Common sense needs to be applied here.

    First link. What conclusion did the UN reach? 

    That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.

    I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.

    If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.

    The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.

    I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from. 
    Common sense?

    Looks like the EU disagrees with you;

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/20/business/europe-china-sanctions.html

    "The European Parliament halted progress Thursday on a landmark commercial agreement with China, citing the “totalitarian threat” from Beijing because of its record on human rights and its sanctions against Europeans who have been critical of the Chinese government.

    By an overwhelming majority, members of Parliament passed a resolution refusing to ratify the so-called Comprehensive Agreement on Investment until China lifts sanctions on prominent European critics of Beijing. The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong.

    “The human rights situation in China is at its worst since the Tiananmen Square massacre,” the resolution said, accusing China of detaining more than one million people, mostly Muslim Uyghursin Xinjiang province, a charge the Chinese government has denied.

    The sanctions against members of the European Parliament who have been critical of Beijing, as well as several scholars and research organizations, “constitute an attack against the European Union and its Parliament as a whole, the heart of European democracy and values, as well as an attack against freedom of research,” the resolution said."

    You seem unable to admit that China is violating human rights, committing genocide (see UN human rights charter that the PRC is a signatory on), nor that China is a "totalitarian threat". 

    https://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Documents/UDHR_Translations/eng.pdf

    I haven't been able to figure out why the PRC has you in its back pocket, yet here you are, arguing against an ever increasing mountain of evidence.


    edited June 3
  • Reply 20 of 35
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    davewrite said:
    "Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"

    Here we go again.
    The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc.
    First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.

    At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again. 

    (In various resolutions practically all the countries  condemning China are Western  except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.

    At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan,  etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang . 

    Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc,  the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy.  )

    Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.


    Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-rights-un/u-n-says-it-has-credible-reports-that-china-holds-million-uighurs-in-secret-camps-idUSKBN1KV1SU

    And numerous others. Genocide finding:

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/09/asia/china-uyghurs-xinjiang-genocide-report-intl-hnk/index.html

    Organ harvesting:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646 

    https://www.businessinsider.com/china-harvesting-organs-of-uighur-muslims-china-tribunal-tells-un-2019-9 

    Camps

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50511063 

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/features/uighurs/ 

    ...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
    Common sense needs to be applied here.

    First link. What conclusion did the UN reach? 

    That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.

    I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.

    If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.

    The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.

    I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from. 

    You seem unable to admit that China is violating human rights, committing genocide (see UN human rights charter that the PRC is a signatory on), nor that China is a "totalitarian threat". 

    I haven't been able to figure out why the PRC has you in its back pocket, yet here you are, arguing against an ever increasing mountain of evidence.

    You must be confusing GeorgeBMac with Avon B7 on this topic. I just quoted the relevant portion of your post - the above sentences apply to GeorgeBMac's stance on this topic, definitely not Avon B7's. Avon has ALWAYS acknowledged that China has committed "Human Rights violations". He never denied them. But being a neutral, he asked few more VALID questions, of course against your country (USA). You have mostly skirted answering those questions, because they are uncomfortable ones to answer from US standpoint. You can go back and read those posts from Avon if you want to understand Avon's stance on this topic.

    Edit: Arm's new chip architecture will power future devices, possibly including Apple's - General Discussion Discussions on AppleInsider Forums Posts 50 and 56.
    edited June 3
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