TSMC starts construction of 5nm chip plant in Arizona

Posted:
in General Discussion edited June 2
Apple partner Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. on Tuesday said construction of a new $12 billion chip plant has begun in Phoenix, Ariz., with the facility expected to produce wafers built on the company's 5-nanometer process.

Chip Wafer


TSMC CEO C.C. Wei announced the development during the company's annual symposium, which was held online for the second year in a row due to the ongoing coronavirus pandemic, reports Reuters.

Plans to build out the $12 billion chip foundry were confirmed last year, and TSMC in March arranged bond sale to partially fund the operation.

Wei on Tuesday said the project is moving forward on schedule and the fab should begin churning out 5nm wafers in 2024. A portion of that output volume could be dedicated to silicon based on new TSMC technology that is certified by automakers for use in areas like artificial intelligence.

Reports in May suggested TSMC is internally discussing the addition of five more fabs in Arizona, though it is unclear what customers those facilities will serve.

Looking ahead, TSMC is on track to start volume production of 3nm chips at its "Fab 18" plant in Tainan, Taiwan, in the second half of 2022, Reuters reports. Word of the company's 3nm plans first surfaced in June 2020, with later reports claiming Apple gobbled up output capacity for A- and M-series chips bound for iPhone, iPad and Mac.

Compared to current 5nm chips, the move to 3nm will increase performance between 10% and 15% while at the same time boosting energy savings from between 20% to 25%, TSMC said last year.

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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 25
    ciacia Posts: 144member
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    KTRforegoneconclusion
  • Reply 2 of 25
    entropysentropys Posts: 3,102member
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    I am sure intel would like to have this problem.

    Anyway, there is this old saying: horses for courses.
    It means a steeple chaser is no good for the Melbourne Cup.
    or for millennial kiddies a modern version might be: EV for the inner cities, 4WD diesel for work. The vehicles have different insides.

    s TSMC will use 5nm processors for different applications/products compared with 3nm.

    and maybe drought is relative to what climate you are used to.
    edited June 1 baconstang
  • Reply 3 of 25
    danoxdanox Posts: 599member
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Drought? There is no water in Arizona when compared to Taiwan…Water is really in short supply in Arizona.
  • Reply 4 of 25
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 2,510member
    Nearly every country on earth is scheduled for a water shortage this year:

    https://www.isciences.com/blog/2021/05/15/isciences-worldwide-water-watch-list-month-2021-tprkn

  • Reply 5 of 25
    zimmiezimmie Posts: 552member
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Chandler, Arizona has Intel fabs 12 (22 nm, 14 nm), 22 (22 nm, 14 nm), 32 (22 nm, 14 nm), and 42 (10 nm today with 7 nm coming online in 2022). Only Hillsboro, Oregon beats it in number of semiconductor manufacturing facilities within the US. If you're looking to build manufacturing presence in the US, you have to build where the skilled workers are, and offer them significantly better pay and/or working conditions.
    cornchiptht
  • Reply 6 of 25
    verne araseverne arase Posts: 271member
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Let's be real ... the real threat to TSMC isn't water - it's Communist China and a potential for mainland China to invade Taiwan.

    Having a fab in the US is the greatest source of security for domestic chip supply.

    As for the fab - you make what you can make. 3nm is still in the labs and production is somewhere off in the future - what they can make now is 5nm. If everything doesn't go sideways, they can build a 3nm fab when they know how to mass produce a 3nm product.
    williamlondontmay
  • Reply 7 of 25
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,262member
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Let's be real ... the real threat to TSMC isn't water - it's Communist China and a potential for mainland China to invade Taiwan.

    ...
    Uncle Joe is too smart  to provoke another civil war we can't win.

    edited June 2
  • Reply 8 of 25
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,417member
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Let's be real ... the real threat to TSMC isn't water - it's Communist China and a potential for mainland China to invade Taiwan.

    ...
    Uncle Joe is too smart  to provoke another civil war we can't win.

    You seem unaware;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Joe

    I'm thinking, haven't heard anyone use "Uncle Joe" in relation to President Joe Biden; excepting you, but of course, "Uncle Joe" Stalin was a thing back before I was born.

    As for Taiwan, I do hope that the U.S. and our allies stand by Democracy in Taiwan, even at the cost of U.S. lives. Taiwan doesn't belong to the People's Republic of China, no matter what China states. After what happened to Hong Kong, and Tibet, Taiwan deserves to survive as a vibrant democracy.
    edited June 2 robabaronn
  • Reply 9 of 25
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,262member
    tmay said:
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Let's be real ... the real threat to TSMC isn't water - it's Communist China and a potential for mainland China to invade Taiwan.

    ...
    Uncle Joe is too smart  to provoke another civil war we can't win.

    You seem unaware;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Joe

    I'm thinking, haven't heard anyone use "Uncle Joe" in relation to President Joe Biden; excepting you, but of course, "Uncle Joe" Stalin was a thing back before I was born.

    As for Taiwan, I do hope that the U.S. and our allies stand by Democracy in Taiwan, even at the cost of U.S. lives. Taiwan doesn't belong to the People's Republic of China, no matter what China states. After what happened to Hong Kong, and Tibet, Taiwan deserves to survive as a vibrant democracy.

    Taiwan is no more separate from China than Texas is from the U.S.   Both appear to want to be, but neither is.

    Yeh, Trump incited insurrection in Hong Kong and Taiwan just as he did here -- but in all cases sanity prevailed.
    edited June 2
  • Reply 10 of 25
    robabarobaba Posts: 159member
    Arizona is relatively tectonically stable, a big big thing when your making tinny tinny parts.
  • Reply 11 of 25
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 2,510member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Let's be real ... the real threat to TSMC isn't water - it's Communist China and a potential for mainland China to invade Taiwan.

    ...
    Uncle Joe is too smart  to provoke another civil war we can't win.

    You seem unaware;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Joe

    I'm thinking, haven't heard anyone use "Uncle Joe" in relation to President Joe Biden; excepting you, but of course, "Uncle Joe" Stalin was a thing back before I was born.

    As for Taiwan, I do hope that the U.S. and our allies stand by Democracy in Taiwan, even at the cost of U.S. lives. Taiwan doesn't belong to the People's Republic of China, no matter what China states. After what happened to Hong Kong, and Tibet, Taiwan deserves to survive as a vibrant democracy.


    Taiwan is no more separate from China than Texas is from the U.S.   Both appear to want to be, but neither is.
    Texas pays taxes to the US government. Taiwan does not pay taxes to China. That's just the first of a dozen major differences which you refuse to recognize because of your extremist views supporting the communist dictatorship of China. You're just proving my point with this post of yours. I imagine you consider the US flag to be racist, like so many Dems do at this time. Yet you'd probably sing the Chinese national anthem. Here are the lyrics for you to practice on right now:
    Arise, ye who refuse to be slaves!
    With our flesh and blood, let us build a new Great Wall!
    As China faces her greatest peril,
    From each one the urgent call to action comes forth.
    Arise! Arise! Arise! Millions of but one heart
    Braving the enemies' fire!
    March on! Braving the enemies' fire! March on! March on! March, march on!


  • Reply 12 of 25
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,417member
    tmay said:
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Let's be real ... the real threat to TSMC isn't water - it's Communist China and a potential for mainland China to invade Taiwan.

    ...
    Uncle Joe is too smart  to provoke another civil war we can't win.

    You seem unaware;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Joe

    I'm thinking, haven't heard anyone use "Uncle Joe" in relation to President Joe Biden; excepting you, but of course, "Uncle Joe" Stalin was a thing back before I was born.

    As for Taiwan, I do hope that the U.S. and our allies stand by Democracy in Taiwan, even at the cost of U.S. lives. Taiwan doesn't belong to the People's Republic of China, no matter what China states. After what happened to Hong Kong, and Tibet, Taiwan deserves to survive as a vibrant democracy.

    Taiwan is no more separate from China than Texas is from the U.S.   Both appear to want to be, but neither is.

    Yeh, Trump incited insurrection in Hong Kong and Taiwan just as he did here -- but in all cases sanity prevailed.
    Actually, Taiwan is an island with no land borders with the People's Republic of China, and you would be lying that Trump incited the "insurrection" in Hong Kong. 

    August 2, 2019

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-trump/trump-says-its-up-to-china-to-deal-with-hong-kong-riots-idUSKCN1US0OR

    HONG KONG (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump has described protests in Hong Kong as “riots” that China will have to deal with itself, signaling a hands-off approach to the biggest political crisis gripping the former British colony in decades.

    "Millions have taken to the streets in the past three months to protest against an extradition bill that would have allowed people to be sent to mainland China for trial in courts controlled by the Communist Party."


    The protests are the most serious political crisis in Hong Kong since it returned to China 22 years ago. They also pose the greatest popular challenge to Chinese leader Xi Jinping since he came to power in 2012 and come as Xi already grapples with a Sino-U.S. trade war and tensions in the South China Sea.

    Some activists have waved the U.S. flag during the demonstrations, while Beijing has accused U.S. officials of being behind the violent chaos and warned against interference.

    Trump was asked by reporters before leaving for a campaign event in Ohio on Thursday whether he was concerned by media reports that China might intervene in Hong Kong and said the city had experienced “riots for a long period of time”.

    “Hong Kong is a part of China, they’ll have to deal with that themselves,” he said.

    Trump’s labeling of the demonstrations as riots is certain to rile activists in the Asian financial center who have called on the city’s government to drop the use of the word to describe the protests.

    It was the Extradition Bill that was behind the protests, and it wasn't until about three months later that President Donald Trump actually reversed himself on Hong Kong;


    November 28, 2019

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50581862

    An explanation of why Hong Kong reacted;

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49317695

    For the record, neither President Joe Biden, nor Congress, appear to be interested in reversing the policies that President Donald Trump initially placed on the PRC.  

  • Reply 13 of 25
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,417member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Let's be real ... the real threat to TSMC isn't water - it's Communist China and a potential for mainland China to invade Taiwan.

    ...
    Uncle Joe is too smart  to provoke another civil war we can't win.

    You seem unaware;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Joe

    I'm thinking, haven't heard anyone use "Uncle Joe" in relation to President Joe Biden; excepting you, but of course, "Uncle Joe" Stalin was a thing back before I was born.

    As for Taiwan, I do hope that the U.S. and our allies stand by Democracy in Taiwan, even at the cost of U.S. lives. Taiwan doesn't belong to the People's Republic of China, no matter what China states. After what happened to Hong Kong, and Tibet, Taiwan deserves to survive as a vibrant democracy.


    Taiwan is no more separate from China than Texas is from the U.S.   Both appear to want to be, but neither is.
    Texas pays taxes to the US government. Taiwan does not pay taxes to China. That's just the first of a dozen major differences which you refuse to recognize because of your extremist views supporting the communist dictatorship of China. You're just proving my point with this post of yours. I imagine you consider the US flag to be racist, like so many Dems do at this time. Yet you'd probably sing the Chinese national anthem. Here are the lyrics for you to practice on right now:
    Arise, ye who refuse to be slaves!
    With our flesh and blood, let us build a new Great Wall!
    As China faces her greatest peril,
    From each one the urgent call to action comes forth.
    Arise! Arise! Arise! Millions of but one heart
    Braving the enemies' fire!
    March on! Braving the enemies' fire! March on! March on! March, march on!



    I accidentally posted without responding to GeorgeBMac, but I assure you, I am 100% behind Taiwan surviving as a democracy, and independent of the PRC/Mainland China.
    edited June 3
  • Reply 14 of 25
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Let's be real ... the real threat to TSMC isn't water - it's Communist China and a potential for mainland China to invade Taiwan.

    ...
    Uncle Joe is too smart  to provoke another civil war we can't win.

    You seem unaware;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Joe

    I'm thinking, haven't heard anyone use "Uncle Joe" in relation to President Joe Biden; excepting you, but of course, "Uncle Joe" Stalin was a thing back before I was born.

    As for Taiwan, I do hope that the U.S. and our allies stand by Democracy in Taiwan, even at the cost of U.S. lives. Taiwan doesn't belong to the People's Republic of China, no matter what China states. After what happened to Hong Kong, and Tibet, Taiwan deserves to survive as a vibrant democracy.

    Taiwan is no more separate from China than Texas is from the U.S.   Both appear to want to be, but neither is.

    Yeh, Trump incited insurrection in Hong Kong and Taiwan just as he did here -- but in all cases sanity prevailed.
    Actually, Taiwan is an island with no land borders with the People's Republic of China, and you would be lying that Trump incited the "insurrection" in Hong Kong. 

    August 2, 2019

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-trump/trump-says-its-up-to-china-to-deal-with-hong-kong-riots-idUSKCN1US0OR

    HONG KONG (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump has described protests in Hong Kong as “riots” that China will have to deal with itself, signaling a hands-off approach to the biggest political crisis gripping the former British colony in decades.

    "Millions have taken to the streets in the past three months to protest against an extradition bill that would have allowed people to be sent to mainland China for trial in courts controlled by the Communist Party."


    The protests are the most serious political crisis in Hong Kong since it returned to China 22 years ago. They also pose the greatest popular challenge to Chinese leader Xi Jinping since he came to power in 2012 and come as Xi already grapples with a Sino-U.S. trade war and tensions in the South China Sea.

    Some activists have waved the U.S. flag during the demonstrations, while Beijing has accused U.S. officials of being behind the violent chaos and warned against interference.

    Trump was asked by reporters before leaving for a campaign event in Ohio on Thursday whether he was concerned by media reports that China might intervene in Hong Kong and said the city had experienced “riots for a long period of time”.

    “Hong Kong is a part of China, they’ll have to deal with that themselves,” he said.

    Trump’s labeling of the demonstrations as riots is certain to rile activists in the Asian financial center who have called on the city’s government to drop the use of the word to describe the protests.

    It was the Extradition Bill that was behind the protests, and it wasn't until about three months later that President Donald Trump actually reversed himself on Hong Kong;


    November 28, 2019

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50581862

    An explanation of why Hong Kong reacted;

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49317695

    For the record, neither President Joe Biden, nor Congress, appear to be interested in reversing the policies that President Donald Trump initially placed on the PRC.  


    Defending Trump, his insurrectionists, and smear campaign against China...   Got it.
    To be fair, Democrats incited Hong Kong riots. Trump is not that fanciful about democracy. Pelosi called Hong Kong protests a beautiful sight of democracy. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 15 of 25
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,417member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Let's be real ... the real threat to TSMC isn't water - it's Communist China and a potential for mainland China to invade Taiwan.

    ...
    Uncle Joe is too smart  to provoke another civil war we can't win.

    You seem unaware;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Joe

    I'm thinking, haven't heard anyone use "Uncle Joe" in relation to President Joe Biden; excepting you, but of course, "Uncle Joe" Stalin was a thing back before I was born.

    As for Taiwan, I do hope that the U.S. and our allies stand by Democracy in Taiwan, even at the cost of U.S. lives. Taiwan doesn't belong to the People's Republic of China, no matter what China states. After what happened to Hong Kong, and Tibet, Taiwan deserves to survive as a vibrant democracy.

    Taiwan is no more separate from China than Texas is from the U.S.   Both appear to want to be, but neither is.

    Yeh, Trump incited insurrection in Hong Kong and Taiwan just as he did here -- but in all cases sanity prevailed.
    Actually, Taiwan is an island with no land borders with the People's Republic of China, and you would be lying that Trump incited the "insurrection" in Hong Kong. 

    August 2, 2019

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-trump/trump-says-its-up-to-china-to-deal-with-hong-kong-riots-idUSKCN1US0OR

    HONG KONG (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump has described protests in Hong Kong as “riots” that China will have to deal with itself, signaling a hands-off approach to the biggest political crisis gripping the former British colony in decades.

    "Millions have taken to the streets in the past three months to protest against an extradition bill that would have allowed people to be sent to mainland China for trial in courts controlled by the Communist Party."


    The protests are the most serious political crisis in Hong Kong since it returned to China 22 years ago. They also pose the greatest popular challenge to Chinese leader Xi Jinping since he came to power in 2012 and come as Xi already grapples with a Sino-U.S. trade war and tensions in the South China Sea.

    Some activists have waved the U.S. flag during the demonstrations, while Beijing has accused U.S. officials of being behind the violent chaos and warned against interference.

    Trump was asked by reporters before leaving for a campaign event in Ohio on Thursday whether he was concerned by media reports that China might intervene in Hong Kong and said the city had experienced “riots for a long period of time”.

    “Hong Kong is a part of China, they’ll have to deal with that themselves,” he said.

    Trump’s labeling of the demonstrations as riots is certain to rile activists in the Asian financial center who have called on the city’s government to drop the use of the word to describe the protests.

    It was the Extradition Bill that was behind the protests, and it wasn't until about three months later that President Donald Trump actually reversed himself on Hong Kong;


    November 28, 2019

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50581862

    An explanation of why Hong Kong reacted;

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49317695

    For the record, neither President Joe Biden, nor Congress, appear to be interested in reversing the policies that President Donald Trump initially placed on the PRC.  


    Defending Trump, his insurrectionists, and smear campaign against China...   Got it.
    To be fair, Democrats incited Hong Kong riots. Trump is not that fanciful about democracy. Pelosi called Hong Kong protests a beautiful sight of democracy. 
    To be fair, the protestors were self actualized, but did appreciate support that came from democracies around the world, including the U.S.

    In the end, the PRC crushed Hong Kong's democracy, reneging on its agreement with the UK, and GeorgeBMac is happy about that.
  • Reply 16 of 25
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 2,510member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Let's be real ... the real threat to TSMC isn't water - it's Communist China and a potential for mainland China to invade Taiwan.

    ...
    Uncle Joe is too smart  to provoke another civil war we can't win.

    You seem unaware;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Joe

    I'm thinking, haven't heard anyone use "Uncle Joe" in relation to President Joe Biden; excepting you, but of course, "Uncle Joe" Stalin was a thing back before I was born.

    As for Taiwan, I do hope that the U.S. and our allies stand by Democracy in Taiwan, even at the cost of U.S. lives. Taiwan doesn't belong to the People's Republic of China, no matter what China states. After what happened to Hong Kong, and Tibet, Taiwan deserves to survive as a vibrant democracy.


    Taiwan is no more separate from China than Texas is from the U.S.   Both appear to want to be, but neither is.
    Texas pays taxes to the US government. Taiwan does not pay taxes to China. That's just the first of a dozen major differences which you refuse to recognize because of your extremist views supporting the communist dictatorship of China. You're just proving my point with this post of yours. I imagine you consider the US flag to be racist, like so many Dems do at this time. Yet you'd probably sing the Chinese national anthem. Here are the lyrics for you to practice on right now:
    Arise, ye who refuse to be slaves!
    With our flesh and blood, let us build a new Great Wall!
    As China faces her greatest peril,
    From each one the urgent call to action comes forth.
    Arise! Arise! Arise! Millions of but one heart
    Braving the enemies' fire!
    March on! Braving the enemies' fire! March on! March on! March, march on!



    I accidentally posted without responding to GeorgeBMac, but I assure you, I am 100% behind Taiwan surviving as a democracy, and independent of the PRC/Mainland China.
    No apology is required. To be honest, I treat most people like I've never met them before (since my memory isn't good enough to remember who said what.)
  • Reply 17 of 25
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,262member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Let's be real ... the real threat to TSMC isn't water - it's Communist China and a potential for mainland China to invade Taiwan.

    ...
    Uncle Joe is too smart  to provoke another civil war we can't win.

    You seem unaware;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Joe

    I'm thinking, haven't heard anyone use "Uncle Joe" in relation to President Joe Biden; excepting you, but of course, "Uncle Joe" Stalin was a thing back before I was born.

    As for Taiwan, I do hope that the U.S. and our allies stand by Democracy in Taiwan, even at the cost of U.S. lives. Taiwan doesn't belong to the People's Republic of China, no matter what China states. After what happened to Hong Kong, and Tibet, Taiwan deserves to survive as a vibrant democracy.

    Taiwan is no more separate from China than Texas is from the U.S.   Both appear to want to be, but neither is.

    Yeh, Trump incited insurrection in Hong Kong and Taiwan just as he did here -- but in all cases sanity prevailed.
    Actually, Taiwan is an island with no land borders with the People's Republic of China, and you would be lying that Trump incited the "insurrection" in Hong Kong. 

    August 2, 2019

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-trump/trump-says-its-up-to-china-to-deal-with-hong-kong-riots-idUSKCN1US0OR

    HONG KONG (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump has described protests in Hong Kong as “riots” that China will have to deal with itself, signaling a hands-off approach to the biggest political crisis gripping the former British colony in decades.

    "Millions have taken to the streets in the past three months to protest against an extradition bill that would have allowed people to be sent to mainland China for trial in courts controlled by the Communist Party."


    The protests are the most serious political crisis in Hong Kong since it returned to China 22 years ago. They also pose the greatest popular challenge to Chinese leader Xi Jinping since he came to power in 2012 and come as Xi already grapples with a Sino-U.S. trade war and tensions in the South China Sea.

    Some activists have waved the U.S. flag during the demonstrations, while Beijing has accused U.S. officials of being behind the violent chaos and warned against interference.

    Trump was asked by reporters before leaving for a campaign event in Ohio on Thursday whether he was concerned by media reports that China might intervene in Hong Kong and said the city had experienced “riots for a long period of time”.

    “Hong Kong is a part of China, they’ll have to deal with that themselves,” he said.

    Trump’s labeling of the demonstrations as riots is certain to rile activists in the Asian financial center who have called on the city’s government to drop the use of the word to describe the protests.

    It was the Extradition Bill that was behind the protests, and it wasn't until about three months later that President Donald Trump actually reversed himself on Hong Kong;


    November 28, 2019

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50581862

    An explanation of why Hong Kong reacted;

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49317695

    For the record, neither President Joe Biden, nor Congress, appear to be interested in reversing the policies that President Donald Trump initially placed on the PRC.  


    Defending Trump, his insurrectionists, and smear campaign against China...   Got it.
    To be fair, Democrats incited Hong Kong riots. Trump is not that fanciful about democracy. Pelosi called Hong Kong protests a beautiful sight of democracy. 

    True!   Or, while they may not have incited them, they have other similar rebellions - which triggered Russian retaliation -- which ultimately got us trumped.   And, in the end, as you pointed out, they certainly cheered this one on.

    The weird part is:   everybody on both sides of the aisle recognize that China is quickly overtaking the U.S. as the world's leading economy and the leading influence in the world.   But what they don't realize is that these silly attacks only serve to weaken us and strengthen China's resolve to never be colonized or pushed around by the west again.

    A great example is central America:  we need their help and cooperation to stem the rising tide of immigrants entering this country.   But, in their time of need, they had to turn to China for help with vaccines while we refused them.   Waving the flag and cheering democracy isn't going to get us very far on the world's stage.

    edited June 4
  • Reply 18 of 25
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,417member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Let's be real ... the real threat to TSMC isn't water - it's Communist China and a potential for mainland China to invade Taiwan.

    ...
    Uncle Joe is too smart  to provoke another civil war we can't win.

    You seem unaware;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Joe

    I'm thinking, haven't heard anyone use "Uncle Joe" in relation to President Joe Biden; excepting you, but of course, "Uncle Joe" Stalin was a thing back before I was born.

    As for Taiwan, I do hope that the U.S. and our allies stand by Democracy in Taiwan, even at the cost of U.S. lives. Taiwan doesn't belong to the People's Republic of China, no matter what China states. After what happened to Hong Kong, and Tibet, Taiwan deserves to survive as a vibrant democracy.

    Taiwan is no more separate from China than Texas is from the U.S.   Both appear to want to be, but neither is.

    Yeh, Trump incited insurrection in Hong Kong and Taiwan just as he did here -- but in all cases sanity prevailed.
    Actually, Taiwan is an island with no land borders with the People's Republic of China, and you would be lying that Trump incited the "insurrection" in Hong Kong. 

    August 2, 2019

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-trump/trump-says-its-up-to-china-to-deal-with-hong-kong-riots-idUSKCN1US0OR

    HONG KONG (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump has described protests in Hong Kong as “riots” that China will have to deal with itself, signaling a hands-off approach to the biggest political crisis gripping the former British colony in decades.

    "Millions have taken to the streets in the past three months to protest against an extradition bill that would have allowed people to be sent to mainland China for trial in courts controlled by the Communist Party."


    The protests are the most serious political crisis in Hong Kong since it returned to China 22 years ago. They also pose the greatest popular challenge to Chinese leader Xi Jinping since he came to power in 2012 and come as Xi already grapples with a Sino-U.S. trade war and tensions in the South China Sea.

    Some activists have waved the U.S. flag during the demonstrations, while Beijing has accused U.S. officials of being behind the violent chaos and warned against interference.

    Trump was asked by reporters before leaving for a campaign event in Ohio on Thursday whether he was concerned by media reports that China might intervene in Hong Kong and said the city had experienced “riots for a long period of time”.

    “Hong Kong is a part of China, they’ll have to deal with that themselves,” he said.

    Trump’s labeling of the demonstrations as riots is certain to rile activists in the Asian financial center who have called on the city’s government to drop the use of the word to describe the protests.

    It was the Extradition Bill that was behind the protests, and it wasn't until about three months later that President Donald Trump actually reversed himself on Hong Kong;


    November 28, 2019

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50581862

    An explanation of why Hong Kong reacted;

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49317695

    For the record, neither President Joe Biden, nor Congress, appear to be interested in reversing the policies that President Donald Trump initially placed on the PRC.  


    Defending Trump, his insurrectionists, and smear campaign against China...   Got it.
    To be fair, Democrats incited Hong Kong riots. Trump is not that fanciful about democracy. Pelosi called Hong Kong protests a beautiful sight of democracy. 

    True!   Or, while they may not have incited them, they have other similar rebellions - which triggered Russian retaliation -- which ultimately got us trumped.   And, in the end, as you pointed out, they certainly cheered this one on.

    The weird part is:   everybody on both sides of the aisle recognize that China is quickly overtaking the U.S. as the world's leading economy and the leading influence in the world.   But what they don't realize is that these silly attacks only serve to weaken us and strengthen China's resolve to never be colonized or pushed around by the west again.

    A great example is central America:  we need their help and cooperation to stem the rising tide of immigrants entering this country.   But, in their time of need, they had to turn to China for help with vaccines while we refused them.   Waving the flag and cheering democracy isn't going to get us very far on the world's stage.

    China isn't going to overtake the U.S. until the end of the decade, at best, and China is also facing a serious aging problem, which is why they allowed, as of yesterday, up to three children per family. Still, the fact is that China's standard of living will almost certainly never approach that of the U.S., and China will never get rich, before they get old, as Japan has.

    As for influence, try as China might, they are not getting positive results from their Wolf Warrior Diplomacy, and Western nations have begun to turn away from China. If anything, China's influence operations, along with initiatives of the current U.S. Administration, appears to be coalescing around growing alliances to contain China. 

    As for immigration, that is precisely why the U.S. has not yet had an aging problem of its own, even as the U.S. birth replacement rate has slowed. The U.S. still allows immigration. 

    You need to read more; start here;

    https://clas.berkeley.edu/research/immigration-economic-benefits-immigration

    As for the Democrats "inciting" Hong Kong protests, that's just false. Both parties, and people from around the world supported Hong Kong.
    edited June 4 ronnrobaba
  • Reply 19 of 25
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Let's be real ... the real threat to TSMC isn't water - it's Communist China and a potential for mainland China to invade Taiwan.

    ...
    Uncle Joe is too smart  to provoke another civil war we can't win.

    You seem unaware;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Joe

    I'm thinking, haven't heard anyone use "Uncle Joe" in relation to President Joe Biden; excepting you, but of course, "Uncle Joe" Stalin was a thing back before I was born.

    As for Taiwan, I do hope that the U.S. and our allies stand by Democracy in Taiwan, even at the cost of U.S. lives. Taiwan doesn't belong to the People's Republic of China, no matter what China states. After what happened to Hong Kong, and Tibet, Taiwan deserves to survive as a vibrant democracy.

    Taiwan is no more separate from China than Texas is from the U.S.   Both appear to want to be, but neither is.

    Yeh, Trump incited insurrection in Hong Kong and Taiwan just as he did here -- but in all cases sanity prevailed.
    Actually, Taiwan is an island with no land borders with the People's Republic of China, and you would be lying that Trump incited the "insurrection" in Hong Kong. 

    August 2, 2019

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-trump/trump-says-its-up-to-china-to-deal-with-hong-kong-riots-idUSKCN1US0OR

    HONG KONG (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump has described protests in Hong Kong as “riots” that China will have to deal with itself, signaling a hands-off approach to the biggest political crisis gripping the former British colony in decades.

    "Millions have taken to the streets in the past three months to protest against an extradition bill that would have allowed people to be sent to mainland China for trial in courts controlled by the Communist Party."


    The protests are the most serious political crisis in Hong Kong since it returned to China 22 years ago. They also pose the greatest popular challenge to Chinese leader Xi Jinping since he came to power in 2012 and come as Xi already grapples with a Sino-U.S. trade war and tensions in the South China Sea.

    Some activists have waved the U.S. flag during the demonstrations, while Beijing has accused U.S. officials of being behind the violent chaos and warned against interference.

    Trump was asked by reporters before leaving for a campaign event in Ohio on Thursday whether he was concerned by media reports that China might intervene in Hong Kong and said the city had experienced “riots for a long period of time”.

    “Hong Kong is a part of China, they’ll have to deal with that themselves,” he said.

    Trump’s labeling of the demonstrations as riots is certain to rile activists in the Asian financial center who have called on the city’s government to drop the use of the word to describe the protests.

    It was the Extradition Bill that was behind the protests, and it wasn't until about three months later that President Donald Trump actually reversed himself on Hong Kong;


    November 28, 2019

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50581862

    An explanation of why Hong Kong reacted;

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49317695

    For the record, neither President Joe Biden, nor Congress, appear to be interested in reversing the policies that President Donald Trump initially placed on the PRC.  


    Defending Trump, his insurrectionists, and smear campaign against China...   Got it.
    To be fair, Democrats incited Hong Kong riots. Trump is not that fanciful about democracy. Pelosi called Hong Kong protests a beautiful sight of democracy. 

    True!   Or, while they may not have incited them, they have other similar rebellions - which triggered Russian retaliation -- which ultimately got us trumped.   And, in the end, as you pointed out, they certainly cheered this one on.

    The weird part is:   everybody on both sides of the aisle recognize that China is quickly overtaking the U.S. as the world's leading economy and the leading influence in the world.   But what they don't realize is that these silly attacks only serve to weaken us and strengthen China's resolve to never be colonized or pushed around by the west again.

    A great example is central America:  we need their help and cooperation to stem the rising tide of immigrants entering this country.   But, in their time of need, they had to turn to China for help with vaccines while we refused them.   Waving the flag and cheering democracy isn't going to get us very far on the world's stage.

    I left out one important fact. The US embassy in Hong Kong is very supportive to the protesters. 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 20 of 25
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,262member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    cia said:
    OK two things....

    One:  Isn't TSMC having issues making chips in Taiwan because of the drought that's been happening there?  If water can be such an issue, why are they building this plant in Arizona, the driest state in the US?

    Two:  By the time this plant goes online, 5nm is going to be old news.  Why aren't they aiming for 3nm or better?
    Let's be real ... the real threat to TSMC isn't water - it's Communist China and a potential for mainland China to invade Taiwan.

    ...
    Uncle Joe is too smart  to provoke another civil war we can't win.

    You seem unaware;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Joe

    I'm thinking, haven't heard anyone use "Uncle Joe" in relation to President Joe Biden; excepting you, but of course, "Uncle Joe" Stalin was a thing back before I was born.

    As for Taiwan, I do hope that the U.S. and our allies stand by Democracy in Taiwan, even at the cost of U.S. lives. Taiwan doesn't belong to the People's Republic of China, no matter what China states. After what happened to Hong Kong, and Tibet, Taiwan deserves to survive as a vibrant democracy.

    Taiwan is no more separate from China than Texas is from the U.S.   Both appear to want to be, but neither is.

    Yeh, Trump incited insurrection in Hong Kong and Taiwan just as he did here -- but in all cases sanity prevailed.
    Actually, Taiwan is an island with no land borders with the People's Republic of China, and you would be lying that Trump incited the "insurrection" in Hong Kong. 

    August 2, 2019

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-trump/trump-says-its-up-to-china-to-deal-with-hong-kong-riots-idUSKCN1US0OR

    HONG KONG (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump has described protests in Hong Kong as “riots” that China will have to deal with itself, signaling a hands-off approach to the biggest political crisis gripping the former British colony in decades.

    "Millions have taken to the streets in the past three months to protest against an extradition bill that would have allowed people to be sent to mainland China for trial in courts controlled by the Communist Party."


    The protests are the most serious political crisis in Hong Kong since it returned to China 22 years ago. They also pose the greatest popular challenge to Chinese leader Xi Jinping since he came to power in 2012 and come as Xi already grapples with a Sino-U.S. trade war and tensions in the South China Sea.

    Some activists have waved the U.S. flag during the demonstrations, while Beijing has accused U.S. officials of being behind the violent chaos and warned against interference.

    Trump was asked by reporters before leaving for a campaign event in Ohio on Thursday whether he was concerned by media reports that China might intervene in Hong Kong and said the city had experienced “riots for a long period of time”.

    “Hong Kong is a part of China, they’ll have to deal with that themselves,” he said.

    Trump’s labeling of the demonstrations as riots is certain to rile activists in the Asian financial center who have called on the city’s government to drop the use of the word to describe the protests.

    It was the Extradition Bill that was behind the protests, and it wasn't until about three months later that President Donald Trump actually reversed himself on Hong Kong;


    November 28, 2019

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50581862

    An explanation of why Hong Kong reacted;

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49317695

    For the record, neither President Joe Biden, nor Congress, appear to be interested in reversing the policies that President Donald Trump initially placed on the PRC.  


    Defending Trump, his insurrectionists, and smear campaign against China...   Got it.
    To be fair, Democrats incited Hong Kong riots. Trump is not that fanciful about democracy. Pelosi called Hong Kong protests a beautiful sight of democracy. 

    True!   Or, while they may not have incited them, they have other similar rebellions - which triggered Russian retaliation -- which ultimately got us trumped.   And, in the end, as you pointed out, they certainly cheered this one on.

    The weird part is:   everybody on both sides of the aisle recognize that China is quickly overtaking the U.S. as the world's leading economy and the leading influence in the world.   But what they don't realize is that these silly attacks only serve to weaken us and strengthen China's resolve to never be colonized or pushed around by the west again.

    A great example is central America:  we need their help and cooperation to stem the rising tide of immigrants entering this country.   But, in their time of need, they had to turn to China for help with vaccines while we refused them.   Waving the flag and cheering democracy isn't going to get us very far on the world's stage.

    China isn't going to overtake the U.S. until the end of the decade, at best, and China is also facing a serious aging problem, which is why they allowed, as of yesterday, up to three children per family. Still, the fact is that China's standard of living will almost certainly never approach that of the U.S., and China will never get rich, before they get old, as Japan has.

    As for influence, try as China might, they are not getting positive results from their Wolf Warrior Diplomacy, and Western nations have begun to turn away from China. If anything, China's influence operations, along with initiatives of the current U.S. Administration, appears to be coalescing around growing alliances to contain China. 

    As for immigration, that is precisely why the U.S. has not yet had an aging problem of its own, even as the U.S. birth replacement rate has slowed. The U.S. still allows immigration. 

    You need to read more; start here;

    https://clas.berkeley.edu/research/immigration-economic-benefits-immigration

    As for the Democrats "inciting" Hong Kong protests, that's just false. Both parties, and people from around the world supported Hong Kong.

    That pretty well sums up the rhetoric from the China haters club of America.   It has just enough truth in it to sound credible for those looking for reasons to justify their hate.
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