The quoted speeds do make some sort of sense, taking rounding into account.
If Apple have a memory controller than can cope with a 450 MHz maximum bus speed (900MHz effective due to DDR transmission), and the PPC970 can run it's bus at an integer fraction of the core clock, then we get chips at 1/3, 1/4, and 1/5 giving clock speeds of 1.35GHz, 1.8GHz, and 2.25GHz, which might be rounded to give the 1.4, 1.8, 2.3 mentioned by MacBidouille. Any other speeds would require a slower bus, reducing bandwidth, maybe Apple didn't want to do that.
michael
Could that be why a 1.6ghz was never mentioned but meerly assumed? It was always 1.ghz-1.8ghz and assumed that was 'thru' and not 'and'. So the 2.3ghz seems to be posible, very interesting assertion.
Programmer, that sounds GREAT to me, actually. One Industry standrad graphics card SLOT (whatever that may be when they finally get around to making this box), one ZIFF mounted CPU (or daughter-card, so long as it can be changed), one optical bay and 1 or 2 HDD bays (internal) with plenty of DIMM's (2-4) and you can color this critic pleased to lay down e-iMac money. Though, I would argue that only the very fastest G4 with a bit of L3 cache will do, or depending on how long Apple takes to finally see the light, a low end 970.
But yeah, something that shadows the performance of a high-end iMac while offering much better flexibility, is just about the perfect answer to a multitude of market demands.
Matsu Prices? Amorph, come on now. I've always said that I'm perfectly happy to pay a "little" more for macs of similar performance, and a little more again for macs of far greater performance.
Yeah, I know, but I felt like tweaking you anyway.
The face of computing is about to change radically, though. All the pieces are falling into place, and I think Apple will push the new connection standards the way it pushed USB — firmly and absolutely, but making sure that the PC world is at least providing the new capabilities as a common option so that they don't end up with another NuBus.
We should see what these new technologies are, and how they work together, and what they imply. A PCI slot in a new model might suddenly become legacy, and it might not. It's also important to keep in mind that a well-executed AIO like the iMac has a lot of advantages as a consumer machine that a modular machine would be hard pressed to match, and (crucially) those advantages speak to Steve's sensibilities.
Has anyone entertained the thought of a limited expansion (no PCI slots) cube like box with an optional PCI-whatever breakout box connectred via a highspeed interconnect? I think RapidIO is supposed to support external high speed connections provided the distance is not too long (2-3 feet high-speed fiber).
Has anyone entertained the thought of a limited expansion (no PCI slots) cube like box with an optional PCI-whatever breakout box connectred via a highspeed interconnect? I think RapidIO is supposed to support external high speed connections provided the distance is not too long (2-3 feet high-speed fiber).
Has anyone entertained the thought of a limited expansion (no PCI slots) cube like box with an optional PCI-whatever breakout box connectred via a highspeed interconnect? I think RapidIO is supposed to support external high speed connections provided the distance is not too long (2-3 feet high-speed fiber).
I've been banging that drum for a while now.
I was unable to find it in their non-searchable archives, but Think Secret posted a brief note that "Thing 2," the codename that TS had associated with a rackmount server project at Apple way back in 2001, actually referred to a companion box for the Cube (codenamed "Thing"). There was apparently a variant Cube with a high-speed connector to Thing 2, which provided the Cube with additional expansion options.
This just fueled my line of thought, needless to say.
Truth be told, An industry standard graphics card slot, a removable CPU and open DIMMs are all I really need internally. Firewire is almost there, for a scenario like Amorph describes. 800 has nearly the bandwidth of 32/33 PCI, and most PC mobo's really only have that much. 1600 and 3200, provided a couple of independent channels, could handle just about anything including the huge demands of uncompressed 4:4:4 HD from something like a Thompson Viper (currently handled by HD-SDI outputs.)
If anything, Apple ought to push firewire to adopt faster speeds NOW and then get the whole pro "FILM" market behind one unified connector as quickly as possible.
Imagine dumping a few hundred gigabytes worth of video to a racked Xserve plus Xserve raid (all in the field) and then controlling the whole thing right there on location from the comfort of a Powerbook! High end video (film), oh yes.
Has anyone entertained the thought of a limited expansion (no PCI slots) cube like box with an optional PCI-whatever breakout box connectred via a highspeed interconnect? I think RapidIO is supposed to support external high speed connections provided the distance is not too long (2-3 feet high-speed fiber).
So I suppose nobody saw what I post in another thread
It remember me of this quote from Mr NSX on Ars : Think outside the box.
If anything, Apple ought to push firewire to adopt faster speeds NOW and then get the whole pro "FILM" market behind one unified connector as quickly as possible.
I wonder what would help is this regard?
It's kinda like the old - "how do I get a hew computer platform accepted?" - thingy, all over again, since you've got to get people to use the thing, but they wont unless there's software/hardware to back it up, and the hardware/software manufacturer's won't supply anything until somebody's actually using it.
I guess it's a classic case of Keyensian pump priming ... it's even got a bit of a macroeconomic angle come to think about it ... hmmmmmmmm
Anyway, how does one get FW accepted as the cradle to home theatre delievery system it should be?
The quoted speeds do make some sort of sense, taking rounding into account.
If Apple have a memory controller than can cope with a 450 MHz maximum bus speed (900MHz effective due to DDR transmission), and the PPC970 can run it's bus at an integer fraction of the core clock, then we get chips at 1/3, 1/4, and 1/5 giving clock speeds of 1.35GHz, 1.8GHz, and 2.25GHz, which might be rounded to give the 1.4, 1.8, 2.3 mentioned by MacBidouille. Any other speeds would require a slower bus, reducing bandwidth, maybe Apple didn't want to do that.
michael
Some of the other quoted speeds fit half-integer values, as well:
450 MHz x 3.5 = 1575 (1.6 GHz)
450 MHz x 4.5 = 2025 (2.0 GHz)
450 MHz x 5.5 = 2475 (2.5 GHz)
I don't know what the 970 gurus are saying about half-integer steps, but these fit, anyway.
Yes, but what if Apple can't get the companion chip above the 900MHz rate?
Then they have to work harder?
Seriously though, the chip really only has to run at 450 MHz and be able to feed the double pumped bus. Getting parts to run at ~500 MHz these days doesn't seem to be too tall of an order and despite how people like to slag them, Apple's ASIC team seems to know what they are doing. If they are having issues with getting the whole chip to run fast enough they can always resort to splitting it into parts and connecting them with HyperTransport (the consortium for which they are part of). IBM is going to have a companion chip to use with the 970 and I'm sure they'd license the IP to Apple if necessary to ensure them as a customer for their new processor.
Some of the other quoted speeds fit half-integer values, as well:
450 MHz x 3.5 = 1575 (1.6 GHz)
450 MHz x 4.5 = 2025 (2.0 GHz)
450 MHz x 5.5 = 2475 (2.5 GHz)
I don't know what the 970 gurus are saying about half-integer steps, but these fit, anyway.
Very interesting. May be this will be Apple's new spped line. Personally, I would like to see two configs of the PM that would be in the 2 Ghz range. Single 2.0 and dual 2.5 or dual 2 and dual 2.5. That would be really nice.
Very interesting. May be this will be Apple's new spped line. Personally, I would like to see two configs of the PM that would be in the 2 Ghz range. Single 2.0 and dual 2.5 or dual 2 and dual 2.5. That would be really nice.
What we're saying is that the 970 may not have a clock multiplier... the bus runs at 1/4 the chip speed, double pumped. Period. Don't bother trying to figure out clock multipliers.
What we're saying is that the 970 may not have a clock multiplier... the bus runs at 1/4 the chip speed, double pumped. Period. Don't bother trying to figure out clock multipliers.
Programer, do you know what apps would take advantage of a 64 bit system? I asked this in another thread and no one answered. Would it be apps like Photoshop, FCP, Maya, Shake?
What we're saying is that the 970 may not have a clock multiplier... the bus runs at 1/4 the chip speed, double pumped.
Programmer, here's my straight-in-the-face question. If the 970 does not have a clock multiplier, do you think the 2.3 or 2.25GHz figures technically possible in regard with the bus frequency? If so, do you believe they're possible at Apple? I am just asking about your opinion. No sarcasm meant.
A guy at MacBidioulle yesterday said that optimizing for 64 bits can colossally improve the performance of OS X in the areas of disc accesses, OpenGL, and Quartz. "In the fields quoted above, 64 bits can really make a difference quasi as significant as AltiVec."
A guy at MacBidioulle yesterday said that optimizing for 64 bits can colossally improve the performance of OS X in the areas of disc accesses, OpenGL, and Quartz. "In the fields quoted above, 64 bits can really make a difference quasi as significant as AltiVec."
To be honest, I don't see how 64-bitness can affect disk access speed. And what does Quartz have to do with 64 bit CPU architecture if it uses 32 bits for displaying and storing pixels?
What we're saying is that the 970 may not have a clock multiplier... the bus runs at 1/4 the chip speed, double pumped. Period. Don't bother trying to figure out clock multipliers.
The bus runs at an integer fractions of the chip speed and is not fixed to 1/4 and is not fixed to 450 MHz. Exclamation mark.
Chip frequecies are "1.4 to 1.8 GHz" with no steps mentioned inbetween.
The 970 is targeted to reach 1.8 GHz at 1.3 V. Maybe the higher speeds are at higher voltage? Like you can't find the higher voltage types of the 7455 in the papers of Moto exept the engineering test results.
do you know what apps would take advantage of a 64 bit system?
There are basically two advantages to 64-bit systems:[list=1][*]The ability to use more than 4GB of memory in a computer[*]The ability to use more than 4GB of memory in an application[/list=1]The first advantage is the most important for now. Quite a few high-end video dudes, 3D animators and even photoshoppers need all the memory that they can get. The second advantage is mostly seen by software that manipulates lots and lots of data. Medium/big databases, scientific software and video-editing come to mind.
Comments
Originally posted by mmicist
The quoted speeds do make some sort of sense, taking rounding into account.
If Apple have a memory controller than can cope with a 450 MHz maximum bus speed (900MHz effective due to DDR transmission), and the PPC970 can run it's bus at an integer fraction of the core clock, then we get chips at 1/3, 1/4, and 1/5 giving clock speeds of 1.35GHz, 1.8GHz, and 2.25GHz, which might be rounded to give the 1.4, 1.8, 2.3 mentioned by MacBidouille. Any other speeds would require a slower bus, reducing bandwidth, maybe Apple didn't want to do that.
michael
Could that be why a 1.6ghz was never mentioned but meerly assumed? It was always 1.ghz-1.8ghz and assumed that was 'thru' and not 'and'. So the 2.3ghz seems to be posible, very interesting assertion.
But yeah, something that shadows the performance of a high-end iMac while offering much better flexibility, is just about the perfect answer to a multitude of market demands.
Come on Apple, my PB is getting lonely.
Originally posted by Matsu
Matsu Prices? Amorph, come on now. I've always said that I'm perfectly happy to pay a "little" more for macs of similar performance, and a little more again for macs of far greater performance.
Yeah, I know, but I felt like tweaking you anyway.
The face of computing is about to change radically, though. All the pieces are falling into place, and I think Apple will push the new connection standards the way it pushed USB — firmly and absolutely, but making sure that the PC world is at least providing the new capabilities as a common option so that they don't end up with another NuBus.
We should see what these new technologies are, and how they work together, and what they imply. A PCI slot in a new model might suddenly become legacy, and it might not. It's also important to keep in mind that a well-executed AIO like the iMac has a lot of advantages as a consumer machine that a modular machine would be hard pressed to match, and (crucially) those advantages speak to Steve's sensibilities.
Originally posted by Outsider
Has anyone entertained the thought of a limited expansion (no PCI slots) cube like box with an optional PCI-whatever breakout box connectred via a highspeed interconnect? I think RapidIO is supposed to support external high speed connections provided the distance is not too long (2-3 feet high-speed fiber).
Think PCI-Express
Originally posted by Outsider
Has anyone entertained the thought of a limited expansion (no PCI slots) cube like box with an optional PCI-whatever breakout box connectred via a highspeed interconnect? I think RapidIO is supposed to support external high speed connections provided the distance is not too long (2-3 feet high-speed fiber).
I've been banging that drum for a while now.
I was unable to find it in their non-searchable archives, but Think Secret posted a brief note that "Thing 2," the codename that TS had associated with a rackmount server project at Apple way back in 2001, actually referred to a companion box for the Cube (codenamed "Thing"). There was apparently a variant Cube with a high-speed connector to Thing 2, which provided the Cube with additional expansion options.
This just fueled my line of thought, needless to say.
If anything, Apple ought to push firewire to adopt faster speeds NOW and then get the whole pro "FILM" market behind one unified connector as quickly as possible.
Imagine dumping a few hundred gigabytes worth of video to a racked Xserve plus Xserve raid (all in the field) and then controlling the whole thing right there on location from the comfort of a Powerbook! High end video (film), oh yes.
Originally posted by Outsider
Has anyone entertained the thought of a limited expansion (no PCI slots) cube like box with an optional PCI-whatever breakout box connectred via a highspeed interconnect? I think RapidIO is supposed to support external high speed connections provided the distance is not too long (2-3 feet high-speed fiber).
So I suppose nobody saw what I post in another thread
It remember me of this quote from Mr NSX on Ars : Think outside the box.
See this Link and this PDF
Originally posted by Matsu
If anything, Apple ought to push firewire to adopt faster speeds NOW and then get the whole pro "FILM" market behind one unified connector as quickly as possible.
I wonder what would help is this regard?
It's kinda like the old - "how do I get a hew computer platform accepted?" - thingy, all over again, since you've got to get people to use the thing, but they wont unless there's software/hardware to back it up, and the hardware/software manufacturer's won't supply anything until somebody's actually using it.
I guess it's a classic case of Keyensian pump priming ... it's even got a bit of a macroeconomic angle come to think about it ... hmmmmmmmm
Anyway, how does one get FW accepted as the cradle to home theatre delievery system it should be?
Originally posted by mmicist
The quoted speeds do make some sort of sense, taking rounding into account.
If Apple have a memory controller than can cope with a 450 MHz maximum bus speed (900MHz effective due to DDR transmission), and the PPC970 can run it's bus at an integer fraction of the core clock, then we get chips at 1/3, 1/4, and 1/5 giving clock speeds of 1.35GHz, 1.8GHz, and 2.25GHz, which might be rounded to give the 1.4, 1.8, 2.3 mentioned by MacBidouille. Any other speeds would require a slower bus, reducing bandwidth, maybe Apple didn't want to do that.
michael
Some of the other quoted speeds fit half-integer values, as well:
450 MHz x 3.5 = 1575 (1.6 GHz)
450 MHz x 4.5 = 2025 (2.0 GHz)
450 MHz x 5.5 = 2475 (2.5 GHz)
I don't know what the 970 gurus are saying about half-integer steps, but these fit, anyway.
Originally posted by mmicist
Yes, but what if Apple can't get the companion chip above the 900MHz rate?
Then they have to work harder?
Seriously though, the chip really only has to run at 450 MHz and be able to feed the double pumped bus. Getting parts to run at ~500 MHz these days doesn't seem to be too tall of an order and despite how people like to slag them, Apple's ASIC team seems to know what they are doing. If they are having issues with getting the whole chip to run fast enough they can always resort to splitting it into parts and connecting them with HyperTransport (the consortium for which they are part of). IBM is going to have a companion chip to use with the 970 and I'm sure they'd license the IP to Apple if necessary to ensure them as a customer for their new processor.
Originally posted by TJM
Some of the other quoted speeds fit half-integer values, as well:
450 MHz x 3.5 = 1575 (1.6 GHz)
450 MHz x 4.5 = 2025 (2.0 GHz)
450 MHz x 5.5 = 2475 (2.5 GHz)
I don't know what the 970 gurus are saying about half-integer steps, but these fit, anyway.
Very interesting. May be this will be Apple's new spped line. Personally, I would like to see two configs of the PM that would be in the 2 Ghz range. Single 2.0 and dual 2.5 or dual 2 and dual 2.5. That would be really nice.
Originally posted by Mac OS X Addict
Very interesting. May be this will be Apple's new spped line. Personally, I would like to see two configs of the PM that would be in the 2 Ghz range. Single 2.0 and dual 2.5 or dual 2 and dual 2.5. That would be really nice.
What we're saying is that the 970 may not have a clock multiplier... the bus runs at 1/4 the chip speed, double pumped. Period. Don't bother trying to figure out clock multipliers.
Originally posted by Programmer
What we're saying is that the 970 may not have a clock multiplier... the bus runs at 1/4 the chip speed, double pumped. Period. Don't bother trying to figure out clock multipliers.
Programer, do you know what apps would take advantage of a 64 bit system? I asked this in another thread and no one answered. Would it be apps like Photoshop, FCP, Maya, Shake?
Originally posted by Programmer
What we're saying is that the 970 may not have a clock multiplier... the bus runs at 1/4 the chip speed, double pumped.
Programmer, here's my straight-in-the-face question. If the 970 does not have a clock multiplier, do you think the 2.3 or 2.25GHz figures technically possible in regard with the bus frequency? If so, do you believe they're possible at Apple? I am just asking about your opinion. No sarcasm meant.
Originally posted by Mac OS X Addict
Programer, do you know what apps would take advantage of a 64 bit system?
I am not Programmer
1) Video Software
2) Encoder / Decoder
3) 3D apps
4) Scientific software (Astronomy, Geology, Biotechnology, etc)
5) Military software
6) Enterprise solutions
Originally posted by Jupiter
A guy at MacBidioulle yesterday said that optimizing for 64 bits can colossally improve the performance of OS X in the areas of disc accesses, OpenGL, and Quartz. "In the fields quoted above, 64 bits can really make a difference quasi as significant as AltiVec."
To be honest, I don't see how 64-bitness can affect disk access speed. And what does Quartz have to do with 64 bit CPU architecture if it uses 32 bits for displaying and storing pixels?
Originally posted by Programmer
What we're saying is that the 970 may not have a clock multiplier... the bus runs at 1/4 the chip speed, double pumped. Period. Don't bother trying to figure out clock multipliers.
The bus runs at an integer fractions of the chip speed and is not fixed to 1/4 and is not fixed to 450 MHz. Exclamation mark.
Chip frequecies are "1.4 to 1.8 GHz" with no steps mentioned inbetween.
The 970 is targeted to reach 1.8 GHz at 1.3 V. Maybe the higher speeds are at higher voltage? Like you can't find the higher voltage types of the 7455 in the papers of Moto exept the engineering test results.
Originally posted by Mac OS X Addict
do you know what apps would take advantage of a 64 bit system?
There are basically two advantages to 64-bit systems:[list=1][*]The ability to use more than 4GB of memory in a computer[*]The ability to use more than 4GB of memory in an application[/list=1]The first advantage is the most important for now. Quite a few high-end video dudes, 3D animators and even photoshoppers need all the memory that they can get. The second advantage is mostly seen by software that manipulates lots and lots of data. Medium/big databases, scientific software and video-editing come to mind.