It is amazing how we just keep repeating the insanity. We know that mask mandates and lockdowns don’t work. This is unequivocal. That is not to say masks don’t work at all, but the way we’re wearing them clearly will not be effective. We aren’t talking about wearing an N 95 or better mask when entering a high risk environment like a medical facility or a nursing home. We’re talking about wearing a piece of cloth or paper across your face while you shop for your new AirPods. It’s not going to do anything.
Sure they do. It's asshole republicans who can't seem to follow simple rules that keep exacerbating this problem.
I now see plenty of businesses saying that if you're vaccinated you don't have to wear a mask, but for unvaccinated people to wear them. Are unvaccinated people going to wear masks? Not the ones that I know.
Yep, the so-called ‘honor system’ is a joke. Someone who refuses to get vaccinated is also not going to pay attention to the honor system by wearing a mask. They see it as an excuse not to wear a mask and don't give a shit if they spread the virus. Time for vaccination passports and severe consequences if caught using a forged one.
But on the other hand, the government is so incompetent it would be a complete mess. I got a letter from my county health department saying they had no record of me getting my second Pfizer shot. I got both shots at the same county vaccination center and have my county vaccination card with both stickers showing the dates and time of both shots. See what I mean?
And it's the unvaccinated who are contracting severe cases, not the vaccinated. If the unvaccinated want to take their chances, let them.
I'm a democrat, and at this stage of vaccination in the U.S., I'm all for Darwin to have his day. The only negative is that the U.S. medical system is getting pretty tired of dealing with these hospitalizations of the unvaccinated. Myself, I'm concerned about the continuing pool of mutations that the world has yet to experience.
Are you virtue signaling that you're a democrat? Then you go on to insinuate that you don't care about people dying just because they don't agree with you? Now it makes sense how 10s of millions of people died under communism.
Democrats have nothing to do with communism. The American democratic party would barely be considered centrist in Europe. Socialism is not communism. You don’t even know how ludicrous you sound, do you? Stop propagating Cold War anti-soviet propaganda. It wasn’t sensible in the Cold War. It’s even less sensible now.
It is amazing how we just keep repeating the insanity. We know that mask mandates and lockdowns don’t work. This is unequivocal. That is not to say masks don’t work at all, but the way we’re wearing them clearly will not be effective. We aren’t talking about wearing an N 95 or better mask when entering a high risk environment like a medical facility or a nursing home. We’re talking about wearing a piece of cloth or paper across your face while you shop for your new AirPods. It’s not going to do anything.
Sure they do. It's asshole republicans who can't seem to follow simple rules that keep exacerbating this problem.
I now see plenty of businesses saying that if you're vaccinated you don't have to wear a mask, but for unvaccinated people to wear them. Are unvaccinated people going to wear masks? Not the ones that I know.
Yep, the so-called ‘honor system’ is a joke. Someone who refuses to get vaccinated is also not going to pay attention to the honor system by wearing a mask. They see it as an excuse not to wear a mask and don't give a shit if they spread the virus. Time for vaccination passports and severe consequences if caught using a forged one.
But on the other hand, the government is so incompetent it would be a complete mess. I got a letter from my county health department saying they had no record of me getting my second Pfizer shot. I got both shots at the same county vaccination center and have my county vaccination card with both stickers showing the dates and time of both shots. See what I mean?
And it's the unvaccinated who are contracting severe cases, not the vaccinated. If the unvaccinated want to take their chances, let them.
No!
No, because they make the world a much more dangerous place for people with weakened immune systems and they provide breeding ground for more, potentially worse, mutations. The longer this virus gets to hang around, the more chance of a mutation that slips right past our vaccines.
It is amazing how we just keep repeating the insanity. We know that mask mandates and lockdowns don’t work. This is unequivocal. That is not to say masks don’t work at all, but the way we’re wearing them clearly will not be effective. We aren’t talking about wearing an N 95 or better mask when entering a high risk environment like a medical facility or a nursing home. We’re talking about wearing a piece of cloth or paper across your face while you shop for your new AirPods. It’s not going to do anything.
Sure they do. It's asshole republicans who can't seem to follow simple rules that keep exacerbating this problem.
I now see plenty of businesses saying that if you're vaccinated you don't have to wear a mask, but for unvaccinated people to wear them. Are unvaccinated people going to wear masks? Not the ones that I know.
Xed has it right. There is volumes of scientific data that clearly show masks do nothing to prevent the spreading or catching a virus. Of course many will never see that sort of evidence with the news media and social media blocking access to such information. "Sure they do" is an asinine statement from someone truly uninformed. Masks are being used as a control device - not for any medical reason.
Control of WHAT? Control of who? For what purpose??
FFS, this kind of rhetoric makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist.
Also: By all means, show us your “volumes of scientific data”.
It is amazing how we just keep repeating the insanity. We know that mask mandates and lockdowns don’t work. This is unequivocal. That is not to say masks don’t work at all, but the way we’re wearing them clearly will not be effective. We aren’t talking about wearing an N 95 or better mask when entering a high risk environment like a medical facility or a nursing home. We’re talking about wearing a piece of cloth or paper across your face while you shop for your new AirPods. It’s not going to do anything.
Sure they do. It's asshole republicans who can't seem to follow simple rules that keep exacerbating this problem.
I now see plenty of businesses saying that if you're vaccinated you don't have to wear a mask, but for unvaccinated people to wear them. Are unvaccinated people going to wear masks? Not the ones that I know.
Yep, the so-called ‘honor system’ is a joke. Someone who refuses to get vaccinated is also not going to pay attention to the honor system by wearing a mask. They see it as an excuse not to wear a mask and don't give a shit if they spread the virus. Time for vaccination passports and severe consequences if caught using a forged one.
But on the other hand, the government is so incompetent it would be a complete mess. I got a letter from my county health department saying they had no record of me getting my second Pfizer shot. I got both shots at the same county vaccination center and have my county vaccination card with both stickers showing the dates and time of both shots. See what I mean?
And it's the unvaccinated who are contracting severe cases, not the vaccinated. If the unvaccinated want to take their chances, let them.
Actually, in England, vaccinated people make up %40 of covid hospitalizations.
Which is expected when using a weak mRNA vaccine that only covers one aspect of a virus (spike protein), rather than traditional vaccines that use the entire virus particle to elicit a full immune response; it's very strange that mRNA vaccines are being pushed, while natural immunity is being ignored. Is this because natural immunity is so much worse? (Of course not); is this due to desire to control, to push for vaccine passports, etc? (Seems like it).
Apparently some people getting the virus don’t develop immunity.
Your “just asking questions” end conjecture sounds like conspiracy theory nonsense. The people against vaccination, rejecting covid as legitimate, rejecting masks, etc., are primarily on the end of the political spectrum most associated with authoritarianism, which is also the most opposed to immigration.
“Control” for the sake of control makes no sense when applied to the political spectrum from which people have been advising vaccination (also keeping in mind that the Democratic Party of the USA would only barely register as centrist outside the USA; the USA doesn’t have an extreme left political movement with any power or influence).
It is amazing how we just keep repeating the insanity. We know that mask mandates and lockdowns don’t work. This is unequivocal. That is not to say masks don’t work at all, but the way we’re wearing them clearly will not be effective. We aren’t talking about wearing an N 95 or better mask when entering a high risk environment like a medical facility or a nursing home. We’re talking about wearing a piece of cloth or paper across your face while you shop for your new AirPods. It’s not going to do anything.
If it’s not going to do anything then it’s not going to do any harm. And there are other opinions that say they have a significant effect.
Given the situation that were in, I’ll take a chance of some effect over a certainty of no effect.
No thanks. I’m done wearing a mask unless absolutely required. I’m fully vaxxed and I’m done with a useless piece of cloth. Anyone who wants a vaccine can get one. If they choose to risk it, it’s on them.
The problem is the vaccine isn’t perfect and individuals’ immune responses vary. Your risk of severe illness, hospitalization and death is dramatically lower but you can still get infected and spread the virus even if you are vaccinated.
It is amazing how we just keep repeating the insanity. We know that mask mandates and lockdowns don’t work. This is unequivocal. That is not to say masks don’t work at all, but the way we’re wearing them clearly will not be effective. We aren’t talking about wearing an N 95 or better mask when entering a high risk environment like a medical facility or a nursing home. We’re talking about wearing a piece of cloth or paper across your face while you shop for your new AirPods. It’s not going to do anything.
Sure they do. It's asshole republicans who can't seem to follow simple rules that keep exacerbating this problem.
I now see plenty of businesses saying that if you're vaccinated you don't have to wear a mask, but for unvaccinated people to wear them. Are unvaccinated people going to wear masks? Not the ones that I know.
Yep, the so-called ‘honor system’ is a joke. Someone who refuses to get vaccinated is also not going to pay attention to the honor system by wearing a mask. They see it as an excuse not to wear a mask and don't give a shit if they spread the virus. Time for vaccination passports and severe consequences if caught using a forged one.
But on the other hand, the government is so incompetent it would be a complete mess. I got a letter from my county health department saying they had no record of me getting my second Pfizer shot. I got both shots at the same county vaccination center and have my county vaccination card with both stickers showing the dates and time of both shots. See what I mean?
And it's the unvaccinated who are contracting severe cases, not the vaccinated. If the unvaccinated want to take their chances, let them.
I'm a democrat, and at this stage of vaccination in the U.S., I'm all for Darwin to have his day. The only negative is that the U.S. medical system is getting pretty tired of dealing with these hospitalizations of the unvaccinated. Myself, I'm concerned about the continuing pool of mutations that the world has yet to experience.
This is a terrible attitude. It shows complete disregard of people with weakened immune systems (like my girlfriend who has cancer). You acknowledge the threat of mutation breeding; why? Because you feel that might effect you?
Throwing our hands up in the air and saying “let people do stupid shit” is just as irresponsible an attitude as the people who can’t be bothered to contribute to the public good because they don’t like inconvenience.
Fair enough, as if I wasn't specific enough about the cohort of unvaccinated that are an issue.
Dr. Brytney Cobia said Monday that all but one of her COVID patients in Alabama did not receive the vaccine. The vaccinated patient, she said, just needed a little oxygen and is expected to fully recover. Some of the others are dying.
“I’m admitting young healthy people to the hospital with very serious COVID infections,” wrote Cobia, a hospitalist at Grandview Medical Center in Birmingham, in an emotional Facebook post Sunday. “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.”
It is amazing how we just keep repeating the insanity. We know that mask mandates and lockdowns don’t work. This is unequivocal. That is not to say masks don’t work at all, but the way we’re wearing them clearly will not be effective. We aren’t talking about wearing an N 95 or better mask when entering a high risk environment like a medical facility or a nursing home. We’re talking about wearing a piece of cloth or paper across your face while you shop for your new AirPods. It’s not going to do anything.
Sure they do. It's asshole republicans who can't seem to follow simple rules that keep exacerbating this problem.
I now see plenty of businesses saying that if you're vaccinated you don't have to wear a mask, but for unvaccinated people to wear them. Are unvaccinated people going to wear masks? Not the ones that I know.
Yep, the so-called ‘honor system’ is a joke. Someone who refuses to get vaccinated is also not going to pay attention to the honor system by wearing a mask. They see it as an excuse not to wear a mask and don't give a shit if they spread the virus. Time for vaccination passports and severe consequences if caught using a forged one.
But on the other hand, the government is so incompetent it would be a complete mess. I got a letter from my county health department saying they had no record of me getting my second Pfizer shot. I got both shots at the same county vaccination center and have my county vaccination card with both stickers showing the dates and time of both shots. See what I mean?
And it's the unvaccinated who are contracting severe cases, not the vaccinated. If the unvaccinated want to take their chances, let them.
Actually, in England, vaccinated people make up %40 of covid hospitalizations.
Which is expected when using a weak mRNA vaccine that only covers one aspect of a virus (spike protein), rather than traditional vaccines that use the entire virus particle to elicit a full immune response; it's very strange that mRNA vaccines are being pushed, while natural immunity is being ignored. Is this because natural immunity is so much worse? (Of course not); is this due to desire to control, to push for vaccine passports, etc? (Seems like it).
Apparently some people getting the virus don’t develop immunity.
Your “just asking questions” end conjecture sounds like conspiracy theory nonsense. The people against vaccination, rejecting covid as legitimate, rejecting masks, etc., are primarily on the end of the political spectrum most associated with authoritarianism, which is also the most opposed to immigration.
“Control” for the sake of control makes no sense when applied to the political spectrum from which people have been advising vaccination (also keeping in mind that the Democratic Party of the USA would only barely register as centrist outside the USA; the USA doesn’t have an extreme left political movement with any power or influence).
That link had an obvious error; it has been corrected.
Earlier, Sir Patrick Vallance told a news briefing that figure was for double-jabbed people. But he later corrected himself on Twitter, saying the original statistic was false.
He posted: "Correcting a statistic I gave at the press conference today, 19 July.
"About 60% of hospitalisations from COVID are not from double-vaccinated people, rather 60% of hospitalisations from COVID are currently from unvaccinated people."
It is amazing how we just keep repeating the insanity. We know that mask mandates and lockdowns don’t work. This is unequivocal. That is not to say masks don’t work at all, but the way we’re wearing them clearly will not be effective. We aren’t talking about wearing an N 95 or better mask when entering a high risk environment like a medical facility or a nursing home. We’re talking about wearing a piece of cloth or paper across your face while you shop for your new AirPods. It’s not going to do anything.
Sure they do. It's asshole republicans who can't seem to follow simple rules that keep exacerbating this problem.
I now see plenty of businesses saying that if you're vaccinated you don't have to wear a mask, but for unvaccinated people to wear them. Are unvaccinated people going to wear masks? Not the ones that I know.
Yep, the so-called ‘honor system’ is a joke. Someone who refuses to get vaccinated is also not going to pay attention to the honor system by wearing a mask. They see it as an excuse not to wear a mask and don't give a shit if they spread the virus. Time for vaccination passports and severe consequences if caught using a forged one.
But on the other hand, the government is so incompetent it would be a complete mess. I got a letter from my county health department saying they had no record of me getting my second Pfizer shot. I got both shots at the same county vaccination center and have my county vaccination card with both stickers showing the dates and time of both shots. See what I mean?
So you love tyranny. Got it.
Get a grip, it's a bit of cotton over your mouth for a tiny part of your day, in the interest of public health, for only as long as an epidemic lasts. Your watermark for tyranny is basically the same as being required to pick up your trash.
EDIT: Sorry, got confused here and though we were still talking about masks. I still think the invocation of tyranny is dumb, but maybe a bit less dumb than when I first responded.
It’s not less dumb. Calling efforts to ensure social welfare “tyranny” is ludicrous. Declaring that ANY coercion at all is “ALWAYS BAD” is a failure to comprehend both the human species and civilization. The libertarian ethos is a nice hypothesis, but it’s not how animals work. We are animals. A total lack of coercion cannot work in the reality.
The effort should be in ensuring that the coercion is reasonable, and that its goal and practical outcomes are for societal welfare. Masking, vaccination, and control of the movement of a deadly pathogen aren’t unreasonable efforts. They’re also not “tyranny”.
Driver’s licenses, pilot’s licenses, most safety regulation... is not an effort toward “tyranny”. As a person who DESPISES backup-beepers (a truly shitty regulatory mistake that is a public nuisance without addressing the intended problem), none of this is an effort at tyranny.
Do these “but my freedom” people have anything to say about the TSA’s security theater or the Patriot Act? Everything about these which was argued as “it’s just a temporary thing” has become permanent. I don’t see libertarians and republicans organizing opposition to them or calling them “tyranny”.
How about the extreme power disparity between civilians and police, especially with their “qualified immunity”, and their tendency to escalate conflict, especially if the subject isn’t white?
State-sponsored religion? The suppression of bodily autonomy for those not making up the ruling group? Establishment of cult-like replacement media centers while calling reporters “the enemy of the state”?
I’m descending into whataboutism, so I’ll stop here.
It is amazing how we just keep repeating the insanity. We know that mask mandates and lockdowns don’t work. This is unequivocal. That is not to say masks don’t work at all, but the way we’re wearing them clearly will not be effective. We aren’t talking about wearing an N 95 or better mask when entering a high risk environment like a medical facility or a nursing home. We’re talking about wearing a piece of cloth or paper across your face while you shop for your new AirPods. It’s not going to do anything.
Sure they do. It's asshole republicans who can't seem to follow simple rules that keep exacerbating this problem.
I now see plenty of businesses saying that if you're vaccinated you don't have to wear a mask, but for unvaccinated people to wear them. Are unvaccinated people going to wear masks? Not the ones that I know.
Yep, the so-called ‘honor system’ is a joke. Someone who refuses to get vaccinated is also not going to pay attention to the honor system by wearing a mask. They see it as an excuse not to wear a mask and don't give a shit if they spread the virus. Time for vaccination passports and severe consequences if caught using a forged one.
But on the other hand, the government is so incompetent it would be a complete mess. I got a letter from my county health department saying they had no record of me getting my second Pfizer shot. I got both shots at the same county vaccination center and have my county vaccination card with both stickers showing the dates and time of both shots. See what I mean?
And it's the unvaccinated who are contracting severe cases, not the vaccinated. If the unvaccinated want to take their chances, let them.
I'm a democrat, and at this stage of vaccination in the U.S., I'm all for Darwin to have his day. The only negative is that the U.S. medical system is getting pretty tired of dealing with these hospitalizations of the unvaccinated. Myself, I'm concerned about the continuing pool of mutations that the world has yet to experience.
This is a terrible attitude. It shows complete disregard of people with weakened immune systems (like my girlfriend who has cancer). You acknowledge the threat of mutation breeding; why? Because you feel that might effect you?
Throwing our hands up in the air and saying “let people do stupid shit” is just as irresponsible an attitude as the people who can’t be bothered to contribute to the public good because they don’t like inconvenience.
Fair enough, as if I wasn't specific enough about the cohort of unvaccinated that are an issue.
Dr. Brytney Cobia said Monday that all but one of her COVID patients in Alabama did not receive the vaccine. The vaccinated patient, she said, just needed a little oxygen and is expected to fully recover. Some of the others are dying.
“I’m admitting young healthy people to the hospital with very serious COVID infections,” wrote Cobia, a hospitalist at Grandview Medical Center in Birmingham, in an emotional Facebook post Sunday. “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.”
It is amazing how we just keep repeating the insanity. We know that mask mandates and lockdowns don’t work. This is unequivocal. That is not to say masks don’t work at all, but the way we’re wearing them clearly will not be effective. We aren’t talking about wearing an N 95 or better mask when entering a high risk environment like a medical facility or a nursing home. We’re talking about wearing a piece of cloth or paper across your face while you shop for your new AirPods. It’s not going to do anything.
The NFL has probably the best research indicating that masks do help, and better masks help more. So if you're spending significant time with someone in a room, especially small or unventilated, then wearing a mask will help.
However... Looking at the trend line where mask mandates are added or removed, it's pretty hard to see the mandates making any difference. The lines all trend approximately in the direction they were already heading — either level, down, or up.
I think this is because in public places where the mask mandates have an effect, people rarely spend extended time next to the same person in small, poorly ventilated rooms. For example, going to the grocery store, you're not likely to spend 10-15 minutes next to the same person, especially in a small room. I think most of the covid spread is through gatherings with family and/or friends where no one is showing symptoms, but someone is infected. That's when you're in prolonged contact in smaller spaces.
It is amazing how we just keep repeating the insanity. We know that mask mandates and lockdowns don’t work. This is unequivocal. That is not to say masks don’t work at all, but the way we’re wearing them clearly will not be effective. We aren’t talking about wearing an N 95 or better mask when entering a high risk environment like a medical facility or a nursing home. We’re talking about wearing a piece of cloth or paper across your face while you shop for your new AirPods. It’s not going to do anything.
Sure they do. It's asshole republicans who can't seem to follow simple rules that keep exacerbating this problem.
I now see plenty of businesses saying that if you're vaccinated you don't have to wear a mask, but for unvaccinated people to wear them. Are unvaccinated people going to wear masks? Not the ones that I know.
Yep, the so-called ‘honor system’ is a joke. Someone who refuses to get vaccinated is also not going to pay attention to the honor system by wearing a mask. They see it as an excuse not to wear a mask and don't give a shit if they spread the virus. Time for vaccination passports and severe consequences if caught using a forged one.
But on the other hand, the government is so incompetent it would be a complete mess. I got a letter from my county health department saying they had no record of me getting my second Pfizer shot. I got both shots at the same county vaccination center and have my county vaccination card with both stickers showing the dates and time of both shots. See what I mean?
And it's the unvaccinated who are contracting severe cases, not the vaccinated. If the unvaccinated want to take their chances, let them.
It is amazing how we just keep repeating the insanity. We know that mask mandates and lockdowns don’t work. This is unequivocal. That is not to say masks don’t work at all, but the way we’re wearing them clearly will not be effective. We aren’t talking about wearing an N 95 or better mask when entering a high risk environment like a medical facility or a nursing home. We’re talking about wearing a piece of cloth or paper across your face while you shop for your new AirPods. It’s not going to do anything.
Sure they do. It's asshole republicans who can't seem to follow simple rules that keep exacerbating this problem.
I now see plenty of businesses saying that if you're vaccinated you don't have to wear a mask, but for unvaccinated people to wear them. Are unvaccinated people going to wear masks? Not the ones that I know.
Yep, the so-called ‘honor system’ is a joke. Someone who refuses to get vaccinated is also not going to pay attention to the honor system by wearing a mask. They see it as an excuse not to wear a mask and don't give a shit if they spread the virus. Time for vaccination passports and severe consequences if caught using a forged one.
But on the other hand, the government is so incompetent it would be a complete mess. I got a letter from my county health department saying they had no record of me getting my second Pfizer shot. I got both shots at the same county vaccination center and have my county vaccination card with both stickers showing the dates and time of both shots. See what I mean?
And it's the unvaccinated who are contracting severe cases, not the vaccinated. If the unvaccinated want to take their chances, let them.
It was almost certainly a combination of social distancing and mask wearing that drove that low number of flu deaths this flu season. Americans are only now understanding the benefits of wearing masks during flu season, something that has been standard procedure in Asia.
Except that isn't data or studies, but speculation... maybe a hypothesis.
Here is an actual study (there are a few more, but they are unfortunately all in medical settings, not general public. They all have similar results.): https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577.full
"Results The rates of all infection outcomes were highest in the cloth mask arm, with the rate of ILI statistically significantly higher in the cloth mask arm (relative risk (RR)=13.00, 95% CI 1.69 to 100.07) compared with the medical mask arm. Cloth masks also had significantly higher rates of ILI compared with the control arm. An analysis by mask use showed ILI (RR=6.64, 95% CI 1.45 to 28.65) and laboratory-confirmed virus (RR=1.72, 95% CI 1.01 to 2.94) were significantly higher in the cloth masks group compared with the medical masks group. Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%.
Conclusions This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated."
Here was the pre-2020 WHO guidance (from a PDF called "Non-pharmaceutical public health measures for mitigating the risk and impact of epidemic and pandemic influenza guidance" which they've pulled down... I think I have a copy if you'd like).
p26 "OVERALL RESULT OF EVIDENCE ON FACE MASKS Ten RCTs were included in the meta-analysis, and there was no evidence that face masks are effective in reducing transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza. "
- "Reusable cloth face masks are not recommended."
crowley said: If it’s not going to do anything then it’s not going to do any harm. And there are other opinions that say they have a significant effect.
No, not really. In some people, it can do a lot of harm. In the rest of us, it ups our chances of respiratory disease. Of course, that's just medical. There could be other issues like psychological ones going on, especially in kids, or developmental ones.
tmay said: I'm a democrat, and at this stage of vaccination in the U.S., I'm all for Darwin to have his day. The only negative is that the U.S. medical system is getting pretty tired of dealing with these hospitalizations of the unvaccinated. Myself, I'm concerned about the continuing pool of mutations that the world has yet to experience.
Can you name a respiratory virus that has been stopped via vaccination? (I'll be waiting...)
As for mutations, respiratory viruses generally become more contagious and less deadly as they mutate.... UNLESS they are pushed by a driver like mass vaccination. If you're worried about more deadly mutants, then we're doing exactly the wrong thing.
BTW, the hospitals are in trouble due to staffing problems, not lack of space to treat the sick.
tylersdad said: I wear glasses. When I wear a mask, my glasses fog up. There are masks which minimize fogging, but they do so at the expense of airflow.
So my choice, if I'm wearing a mask is, be able to see or be able to breath.
It's not just some minor inconvenience. I used to work in a wafer fab. I had to wear a mask 8+ hours a day. When I was able to leave the fab for an office job, I was very happy.
Yep, and that stuff fogging up your glasses would contain those dastardly little Covid-19 viruses, sneaky little devils. I guess the argument is that there are *less* of them with the mask, and then if you're distanced, not staying still for long, and not in too enclosed of a space, it *might* (at least on paper) reduce transmission. One wonders, though, if Fauci told people to stick a florescent pink cue tip up one nostril because it would cut down transmission, if they'd just blindly do that, too.
Yeah, unfortunately I have a bit too much mask wearing experience as well. While I don't have a medical condition which makes it especially dangerous to me, I can absolutely feel the effect, especially when having to do physical labor. (I got a kick out of the YouTube girl with the O2 meter sitting in a chair and taking measurements after a couple min with and w/o, and saying, see no difference. LOL)
crowley said: What about those who are unable to have the vaccine for medical reasons? Does your proud self regard and dismissal of other people's circumstances and lives extend to them too?
Now they are really in trouble, as there are all kind of Vaxxed people roaming around who could spread Covid to them, and they'd be less likely to even know they are in danger. Hopefully they and I won't have to try and bury all the dead when the next virus hits (cf. ADE).
tylersdad said: It would be interesting to know what percentage of that 40% are fully vaccinated (either with both doses of Pfizer/Moderna or one does of J&J).
Not sure about the UK, but I think Israel is in the high 80s, and the majority hospitalized are vaccinated.
Xed said: 1) It is clear. Masks and distancing work, which is why surgeons wear masks.
2) Assuming you mean "why" do I care, I care because the risk is to society as a whole, not just to people like you. You and your ilk are the reason this was an issue. You and your ilk are the reason we had to endure the lockdowns and drop in commerce for so long. You and your ilk are the reason there is a resurgence. You and your ilk through your spread of lies and spread of viruses have caused the death and destruction of countless lives.
re: 1 - no, it's not clear, which is why studies were done. I'd say, tradition, outside a few cases where fluids, etc. are flying.
re: 2 - Well, that's the narrative, for sure. You restated it well. It just runs counter to the science and history of respiratory viruses and pandemics. it IS quite effective for dividing people up and putting them against each other, though.
Xed said: I posted a comprehensive article that shows the efficacy of mRNA vaccines in comparison to the less effective alternatives. Clearly that was too much for you to understand.
That wasn't very comprehensive at all. I'd look for a few more sources, and up-to-date info. Those numbers have been dropping, especially in regard to the variants. BTW, those are relative risk reduction, not absolute.
Xed said: They wear them to help prevent the spread of germs, which is why you should wear a mask during a pandemic instead of calling it a fake virus at the top of your lungs.
Do you know what aerosol means in regard to virus transmission?
Xed said: Telling certain people that the US vaccine supply may go to another, less (um) white country will surely encourage some to get it. LOL
Numerous studies have shown the effectiveness of masks. There are many demonstrations on YouTube showing how masks of all types dramatically impede ...
Just so people are aware, there are 3 main types of studies. There are double-blind and placebo controlled studies, that if done correctly, likely show something to be the case or not to be. There are theoretical / model type studies, which try to make some point which *might* be possible to apply to a situation. There are observational studies (w/o controls) which attempt to create a hypothesis which can be tested.
The first type, in regard to masks, show little to no effect, along with some negative effects. The second type is what is being talked about above, but that doesn't necessarily translate to the real world. the third type is the pro-mask data we have so far since Covid, but correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation.
tmay said: Reason enough that the rest of the world should not rely primarily on China for personal protective gear, but have multiple supply chains. Countries have also learned that they must have some internal production capability for these, as well as supply caches, all for the next pandemic.
Alex_V said: * China contained the disease pretty well. So their demand for PPE was limited.
* You’re right: it was foolhardy to export PPE to China when everyone could see (from Feb/Mar 2020) that this disease was on its way.
They continued the news and information about it pretty well, but there is some evidence they were dealing with it long before the rest of the world even knew about it. Canada also shipped off a bunch of our PPE to China. I don't know if it was just a matter of open-market dealing, or responding to their call, or what.
dysamoria said: I see people coughing and sneezing plenty enough. Then there are the plague joggers huffing away on trails an sidewalks (I do not huff like these guys when I jog, so I don’t know WTH that’s about). There’re also people who don’t have “inside voices”; talking like they’re at a crowded concert, blowing enough air at you that you can feel it. These people also tend to stand too closely.
One random strong exhale can blast you with infectious particles. That’s why people are supposed to cover these potential events by wearing masks on their faces. It’s not a magical barrier; it’s just one step of “filtration”; one more step against potential exposure. There are supposed to be many steps but people can’t be bothered to engage with almost any consideration for others.
Fair point, since masks can impact droplet transmission, they could help some for those kind of situations. The main problem (overall) is that Covid-19 also spreads via aerosol. So, maybe it gives protection in some situations, but also a lot of false comfort.
dysamoria said: Democrats have nothing to do with communism. The American democratic party would barely be considered centrist in Europe. Socialism is not communism. You don’t even know how ludicrous you sound, do you? Stop propagating Cold War anti-soviet propaganda. It wasn’t sensible in the Cold War. It’s even less sensible now.
I would have agreed with you up until more recently. Many in the Democrat party (and a sizable percent of the public) seem to be embracing many of the attributes of communism, and some are even outright embracing it. <sarcasm> But, don't worry, it's Communism 2.0 with all the bugs fixed. </sarcasm>
No, because they make the world a much more dangerous place for people with weakened immune systems and they provide breeding ground for more, potentially worse, mutations. The longer this virus gets to hang around, the more chance of a mutation that slips right past our vaccines.
It's actually the opposite. Naturally, the virus will mutate to lesser deadly variants. For example, the late 1800s Spanish Flu is now our common cold. If we push it with ineffective vaccinations, we're more likely to create deadly variants. Which, is exactly what we're doing.
And, it will absolutely slip past our vaccines. The fallacy is in thinking we can control/stop it by acting a bit different or through big-pharma marketing run amok.
dysamoria said: Do these “but my freedom” people have anything to say about the TSA’s security theater or the Patriot Act? Everything about these which was argued as “it’s just a temporary thing” has become permanent. I don’t see libertarians and republicans organizing opposition to them or calling them “tyranny”.
Yes, and we're noticing the same trend going on with Covid-19 reaction here... Two weeks to flatten the curve -> 1.5 years and counting. Vaccine passport conspiracy theory -> vaccine passport reality Bodily autonomy -> take the jab if you want to work or eat science -> only the science we authorize
The 'but my freedom' people are furious about the forever state of the Patriot Act.
dws-2 said: However... Looking at the trend line where mask mandates are added or removed, it's pretty hard to see the mandates making any difference. The lines all trend approximately in the direction they were already heading — either level, down, or up.
I think this is because in public places where the mask mandates have an effect, people rarely spend extended time next to the same person in small, poorly ventilated rooms. For example, going to the grocery store, you're not likely to spend 10-15 minutes next to the same person, especially in a small room. I think most of the covid spread is through gatherings with family and/or friends where no one is showing symptoms, but someone is infected. That's when you're in prolonged contact in smaller spaces.
Yeah, as I said earlier, if one cherry-picks, one can find a few examples that tell the story they want to tell. But, on the whole, it's pretty hard to find that our policies have impacted Covid-19. (Which is probably why the pandemic reaction materials prior to 2020 didn't recommend masks, lock-downs, etc.)
But, i think you're right in regard to the spread. Aerosol spread. If you're not in too enclosed of a space, for too long, next to an infected person, it won't matter much if you/they have a mask or not. If you're in close spaces for longer periods, again, it won't matter much if you/they had a mask or not, you'll get it. Unfortunately tons of 'essential workers' (far too many for quite unessential things) work in close-quarters, for long periods of time.
Comments
Democrats have nothing to do with communism. The American democratic party would barely be considered centrist in Europe. Socialism is not communism. You don’t even know how ludicrous you sound, do you? Stop propagating Cold War anti-soviet propaganda. It wasn’t sensible in the Cold War. It’s even less sensible now.
No!
No, because they make the world a much more dangerous place for people with weakened immune systems and they provide breeding ground for more, potentially worse, mutations. The longer this virus gets to hang around, the more chance of a mutation that slips right past our vaccines.
Control of WHAT? Control of who? For what purpose??
FFS, this kind of rhetoric makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist.
Also: By all means, show us your “volumes of scientific data”.
Your “just asking questions” end conjecture sounds like conspiracy theory nonsense. The people against vaccination, rejecting covid as legitimate, rejecting masks, etc., are primarily on the end of the political spectrum most associated with authoritarianism, which is also the most opposed to immigration.
“Control” for the sake of control makes no sense when applied to the political spectrum from which people have been advising vaccination (also keeping in mind that the Democratic Party of the USA would only barely register as centrist outside the USA; the USA doesn’t have an extreme left political movement with any power or influence).
https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/im-sorry-but-its-too-late-alabama-doctor-on-treating-unvaccinated-dying-covid-patients.html
I empathize with you and your girlfriend.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/60percent-of-people-being-admitted-to-hospital-with-covid-have-been-double-jabbed-vallance/ar-AAMkbJS
It’s not less dumb. Calling efforts to ensure social welfare “tyranny” is ludicrous. Declaring that ANY coercion at all is “ALWAYS BAD” is a failure to comprehend both the human species and civilization. The libertarian ethos is a nice hypothesis, but it’s not how animals work. We are animals. A total lack of coercion cannot work in the reality.
The effort should be in ensuring that the coercion is reasonable, and that its goal and practical outcomes are for societal welfare. Masking, vaccination, and control of the movement of a deadly pathogen aren’t unreasonable efforts. They’re also not “tyranny”.
Driver’s licenses, pilot’s licenses, most safety regulation... is not an effort toward “tyranny”. As a person who DESPISES backup-beepers (a truly shitty regulatory mistake that is a public nuisance without addressing the intended problem), none of this is an effort at tyranny.
Do these “but my freedom” people have anything to say about the TSA’s security theater or the Patriot Act? Everything about these which was argued as “it’s just a temporary thing” has become permanent. I don’t see libertarians and republicans organizing opposition to them or calling them “tyranny”.
How about the extreme power disparity between civilians and police, especially with their “qualified immunity”, and their tendency to escalate conflict, especially if the subject isn’t white?
State-sponsored religion? The suppression of bodily autonomy for those not making up the ruling group? Establishment of cult-like replacement media centers while calling reporters “the enemy of the state”?
I’m descending into whataboutism, so I’ll stop here.
However... Looking at the trend line where mask mandates are added or removed, it's pretty hard to see the mandates making any difference. The lines all trend approximately in the direction they were already heading — either level, down, or up.
I think this is because in public places where the mask mandates have an effect, people rarely spend extended time next to the same person in small, poorly ventilated rooms. For example, going to the grocery store, you're not likely to spend 10-15 minutes next to the same person, especially in a small room. I think most of the covid spread is through gatherings with family and/or friends where no one is showing symptoms, but someone is infected. That's when you're in prolonged contact in smaller spaces.
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/coronavirus/151-dead-563-hospitalized-in-illinois-breakthrough-covid-cases/2556408/
Here is an actual study (there are a few more, but they are unfortunately all in medical settings, not general public. They all have similar results.):
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577.full
"Results The rates of all infection outcomes were highest in the cloth mask arm, with the rate of ILI statistically significantly higher in the cloth mask arm (relative risk (RR)=13.00, 95% CI 1.69 to 100.07) compared with the medical mask arm. Cloth masks also had significantly higher rates of ILI compared with the control arm. An analysis by mask use showed ILI (RR=6.64, 95% CI 1.45 to 28.65) and laboratory-confirmed virus (RR=1.72, 95% CI 1.01 to 2.94) were significantly higher in the cloth masks group compared with the medical masks group. Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%.
Conclusions This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated."
Here was the pre-2020 WHO guidance (from a PDF called "Non-pharmaceutical public health measures for mitigating the risk and impact of epidemic and pandemic influenza guidance" which they've pulled down... I think I have a copy if you'd like).
p26 "OVERALL RESULT OF EVIDENCE ON FACE MASKS Ten RCTs were included in the meta-analysis, and there was no evidence that face masks are effective in reducing transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza. "
- "Reusable cloth face masks are not recommended."
No, not really. In some people, it can do a lot of harm. In the rest of us, it ups our chances of respiratory disease. Of course, that's just medical. There could be other issues like psychological ones going on, especially in kids, or developmental ones.
Can you name a respiratory virus that has been stopped via vaccination? (I'll be waiting...)
As for mutations, respiratory viruses generally become more contagious and less deadly as they mutate.... UNLESS they are pushed by a driver like mass vaccination. If you're worried about more deadly mutants, then we're doing exactly the wrong thing.
BTW, the hospitals are in trouble due to staffing problems, not lack of space to treat the sick.
Yeah, unfortunately I have a bit too much mask wearing experience as well. While I don't have a medical condition which makes it especially dangerous to me, I can absolutely feel the effect, especially when having to do physical labor. (I got a kick out of the YouTube girl with the O2 meter sitting in a chair and taking measurements after a couple min with and w/o, and saying, see no difference. LOL)
Now they are really in trouble, as there are all kind of Vaxxed people roaming around who could spread Covid to them, and they'd be less likely to even know they are in danger. Hopefully they and I won't have to try and bury all the dead when the next virus hits (cf. ADE).
Not sure about the UK, but I think Israel is in the high 80s, and the majority hospitalized are vaccinated.
re: 1 - no, it's not clear, which is why studies were done. I'd say, tradition, outside a few cases where fluids, etc. are flying.
re: 2 - Well, that's the narrative, for sure. You restated it well. It just runs counter to the science and history of respiratory viruses and pandemics. it IS quite effective for dividing people up and putting them against each other, though.
Do you know what aerosol means in regard to virus transmission?
I think all those people already got it.
Just so people are aware, there are 3 main types of studies.
There are double-blind and placebo controlled studies, that if done correctly, likely show something to be the case or not to be.
There are theoretical / model type studies, which try to make some point which *might* be possible to apply to a situation.
There are observational studies (w/o controls) which attempt to create a hypothesis which can be tested.
The first type, in regard to masks, show little to no effect, along with some negative effects.
The second type is what is being talked about above, but that doesn't necessarily translate to the real world.
the third type is the pro-mask data we have so far since Covid, but correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation.
This podcast covers the Congressional testimony concerning the failure to prepare in terms of PPE. It was a quite bi-partisan effort, surprise, surprise.
https://congressionaldish.com/cd215-covid-19-testimony/
They continued the news and information about it pretty well, but there is some evidence they were dealing with it long before the rest of the world even knew about it.
Canada also shipped off a bunch of our PPE to China. I don't know if it was just a matter of open-market dealing, or responding to their call, or what.
Fair point, since masks can impact droplet transmission, they could help some for those kind of situations. The main problem (overall) is that Covid-19 also spreads via aerosol. So, maybe it gives protection in some situations, but also a lot of false comfort.
It's actually the opposite. Naturally, the virus will mutate to lesser deadly variants. For example, the late 1800s Spanish Flu is now our common cold. If we push it with ineffective vaccinations, we're more likely to create deadly variants. Which, is exactly what we're doing.
And, it will absolutely slip past our vaccines. The fallacy is in thinking we can control/stop it by acting a bit different or through big-pharma marketing run amok.
Yes, and we're noticing the same trend going on with Covid-19 reaction here...
Two weeks to flatten the curve -> 1.5 years and counting.
Vaccine passport conspiracy theory -> vaccine passport reality
Bodily autonomy -> take the jab if you want to work or eat
science -> only the science we authorize
The 'but my freedom' people are furious about the forever state of the Patriot Act.
Yeah, as I said earlier, if one cherry-picks, one can find a few examples that tell the story they want to tell. But, on the whole, it's pretty hard to find that our policies have impacted Covid-19. (Which is probably why the pandemic reaction materials prior to 2020 didn't recommend masks, lock-downs, etc.)
But, i think you're right in regard to the spread. Aerosol spread. If you're not in too enclosed of a space, for too long, next to an infected person, it won't matter much if you/they have a mask or not. If you're in close spaces for longer periods, again, it won't matter much if you/they had a mask or not, you'll get it. Unfortunately tons of 'essential workers' (far too many for quite unessential things) work in close-quarters, for long periods of time.
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0057100