Apple details user privacy, security features built into its CSAM scanning system

124»

Comments

  • Reply 61 of 69
    Ok. So basically, Apple has decided to do an illegal search and seizure of our photos, have their system analyze them for what a government sponsored non-profit determines might be criminal (which of course can't ever be hacked or manipulated, as that's never happened to any company or database /s), then a non-police officer human will look at your photos and make a legal determination over them before taking you to the police. This is completely unconstitutional, as laid out in the fourth amendment:

    4th Amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    Where's the warrant that gives anyone the right to look at your personal photos, be it on your phone, on your server storage, or your personal home? This also such a clear violation of the precept of innocent before proven guilty, as everyone is suspected guilty, and therefore, searched. Apple is not law enforcement, nor have they been empowered by law enforcement, nor do they have a legal warrant issued by a judge to search your property.

    Apple has really opened the door here for so many violations it's not even funny. And this is the company that would not help unlock the phone of a terrorist, but will now scan every single, innocent person's phone, you know "for the children". That excuse has always covered up so many sins. 

    You know, since Apple has decided to look at our photos, and one of their employees may end up looking at your personal photos should their magical system of identification accidentally flag one of your photos, how about we all get a view at the personal photos of Tim Cook and all other Apple employees. It's only fair isn't it?

    Just pondering...
    There’s nothing illegal about it. Apple is a private entity that you have given access to your records. They can voluntarily give any and all of your information to law enforcement. Even regardless if you have a “contract” with them not to because that contract would be void. The 4th Amendment only protects you if the government is attempting to get information and the entity that has it resists. They can voluntarily give whatever information they have to law enforcement at any time.
  • Reply 62 of 69
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,300member
    Rayz2016 said:
    John Kheit thinks the press has given Apple an easy ride with this. Not sure I agree. The press has reported what they’re seeing. 

    https://www.macobserver.com/columns-opinions/devils-advocate/apple-broke-privacy-promises-hearts/

    Wow, surprisingly blunt. 
  • Reply 63 of 69
    steven n.steven n. Posts: 1,225member
    F_Kent_D said:
    I 100% agree with everyone’s concern and disapproval of this feature. However, I have nothing to hide as far as child pornography or anything of the sort. I have 3 daughters and would rather them not receive any pornographic texts or communication from anyone and this is to help keep that from happening. Todays kids are chatting and messaging no telling who on the online games and I’ve found that one of my daughters was suckered into doing things that shouldn’t have been done as a 10 year old. She’s been warned but I’m unable to warn the other party. I’m not 100% happy about all of this scanning but at the same time I have young girls that if there’s a way to protect them I will accept the protection against sex trafficking and other improper activities via messaging. 
    And the CSIM feature will do what you want. CSAM is very very different and, while being well intentioned, has the real potential to be abused by governments all over the world. 
    numenorean
  • Reply 64 of 69
    steven n.steven n. Posts: 1,225member
    Ok. So basically, Apple has decided to do an illegal search and seizure of our photos, have their system analyze them for what a government sponsored non-profit determines might be criminal (which of course can't ever be hacked or manipulated, as that's never happened to any company or database /s), then a non-police officer human will look at your photos and make a legal determination over them before taking you to the police. This is completely unconstitutional, as laid out in the fourth amendment:

    4th Amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    Where's the warrant that gives anyone the right to look at your personal photos, be it on your phone, on your server storage, or your personal home? This also such a clear violation of the precept of innocent before proven guilty, as everyone is suspected guilty, and therefore, searched. Apple is not law enforcement, nor have they been empowered by law enforcement, nor do they have a legal warrant issued by a judge to search your property.

    Apple has really opened the door here for so many violations it's not even funny. And this is the company that would not help unlock the phone of a terrorist, but will now scan every single, innocent person's phone, you know "for the children". That excuse has always covered up so many sins. 

    You know, since Apple has decided to look at our photos, and one of their employees may end up looking at your personal photos should their magical system of identification accidentally flag one of your photos, how about we all get a view at the personal photos of Tim Cook and all other Apple employees. It's only fair isn't it?

    Just pondering...
    There’s nothing illegal about it. Apple is a private entity that you have given access to your records. They can voluntarily give any and all of your information to law enforcement. Even regardless if you have a “contract” with them not to because that contract would be void. The 4th Amendment only protects you if the government is attempting to get information and the entity that has it resists. They can voluntarily give whatever information they have to law enforcement at any time.
    Depends if the government is the one requiring the private company to act as agents on their behalf. If this is being mandated by the government or even knowingly sanctioned by the government, the following would be very much in question:

    ”Courts routinely look to two critical factors in making a determination as to whether an individual was acting as a government agent: (1) whether the government knew of and acquiesced in the intrusive conduct, and (2) whether the private actor’s purpose was to assist law enforcement rather than to further his own ends.”

    in this case, both would be true and the Fourth Amendment would come into play. 
    xyzzy-xxxdarkvadernumenorean
  • Reply 65 of 69
    steven n. said:
    Ok. So basically, Apple has decided to do an illegal search and seizure of our photos, have their system analyze them for what a government sponsored non-profit determines might be criminal (which of course can't ever be hacked or manipulated, as that's never happened to any company or database /s), then a non-police officer human will look at your photos and make a legal determination over them before taking you to the police. This is completely unconstitutional, as laid out in the fourth amendment:

    4th Amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    Where's the warrant that gives anyone the right to look at your personal photos, be it on your phone, on your server storage, or your personal home? This also such a clear violation of the precept of innocent before proven guilty, as everyone is suspected guilty, and therefore, searched. Apple is not law enforcement, nor have they been empowered by law enforcement, nor do they have a legal warrant issued by a judge to search your property.

    Apple has really opened the door here for so many violations it's not even funny. And this is the company that would not help unlock the phone of a terrorist, but will now scan every single, innocent person's phone, you know "for the children". That excuse has always covered up so many sins. 

    You know, since Apple has decided to look at our photos, and one of their employees may end up looking at your personal photos should their magical system of identification accidentally flag one of your photos, how about we all get a view at the personal photos of Tim Cook and all other Apple employees. It's only fair isn't it?

    Just pondering...
    There’s nothing illegal about it. Apple is a private entity that you have given access to your records. They can voluntarily give any and all of your information to law enforcement. Even regardless if you have a “contract” with them not to because that contract would be void. The 4th Amendment only protects you if the government is attempting to get information and the entity that has it resists. They can voluntarily give whatever information they have to law enforcement at any time.
    Depends if the government is the one requiring the private company to act as agents on their behalf. If this is being mandated by the government or even knowingly sanctioned by the government, the following would be very much in question:

    ”Courts routinely look to two critical factors in making a determination as to whether an individual was acting as a government agent: (1) whether the government knew of and acquiesced in the intrusive conduct, and (2) whether the private actor’s purpose was to assist law enforcement rather than to further his own ends.”

    in this case, both would be true and the Fourth Amendment would come into play. 
    Nothing stops Apple or any other company or person from voluntarily giving the government a person’s records. All they need to do is say they are doing their civic duty by cooperating with law enforcement. There is no court that will penalize them for that. If a person who is being prosecuted based on evidence that was given to law enforcement wants to claim it is inadmissible in a criminal case they are welcome to make there argument to the court. However it doesn’t change the fact that the evidence was already lawfully given to law enforcement.
  • Reply 66 of 69
    bluefire1bluefire1 Posts: 1,187member
    longfang said:
    mobird said:
    They don't get it!!! We DO NOT WANT THIS. I don't give a rat's ass on their "white paper".
    Who is “we”?
    The vast majority of people who value Apple devices and assumed the company’s  goal of protecting the privacy rights of customers was sacrosanct are being betrayed.
    Consider this thread a microcosm of sentiment.
    edited August 15 mobirdnumenorean
  • Reply 67 of 69
    Ok. So basically, Apple has decided to do an illegal search and seizure of our photos, have their system analyze them for what a government sponsored non-profit determines might be criminal (which of course can't ever be hacked or manipulated, as that's never happened to any company or database /s), then a non-police officer human will look at your photos and make a legal determination over them before taking you to the police. This is completely unconstitutional, as laid out in the fourth amendment:

    4th Amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    Where's the warrant that gives anyone the right to look at your personal photos, be it on your phone, on your server storage, or your personal home? This also such a clear violation of the precept of innocent before proven guilty, as everyone is suspected guilty, and therefore, searched. Apple is not law enforcement, nor have they been empowered by law enforcement, nor do they have a legal warrant issued by a judge to search your property.

    Apple has really opened the door here for so many violations it's not even funny. And this is the company that would not help unlock the phone of a terrorist, but will now scan every single, innocent person's phone, you know "for the children". That excuse has always covered up so many sins. 

    You know, since Apple has decided to look at our photos, and one of their employees may end up looking at your personal photos should their magical system of identification accidentally flag one of your photos, how about we all get a view at the personal photos of Tim Cook and all other Apple employees. It's only fair isn't it?

    Just pondering...
    There’s nothing illegal about it. Apple is a private entity that you have given access to your records. They can voluntarily give any and all of your information to law enforcement. Even regardless if you have a “contract” with them not to because that contract would be void. The 4th Amendment only protects you if the government is attempting to get information and the entity that has it resists. They can voluntarily give whatever information they have to law enforcement at any time.
    They are not getting a request from law enforcement, nor warrant, nor anything. Obviously, the iCloud agreement allows them to do anything, and if not, they'll modify that agreement (I don't use cloud services for personal photos to reduce the possibility of hackers getting photos of my family members, especially minors, that could then be used in nefarious ways), and that of iOS to make sure they have your "permission" (as if you had a choice if you want to continue using an updated and therefore more secure iPhone). That doesn't mean it's not a violation. You see, the 4th amendment isn't just about government intruding. It clearly states "the right of the people", which means that as a citizen of the U.S., ruled by this constitution, I have the right against an unreasonable search and seizure by anyone without probable cause. It's one of the basic rights of a citizen to not have their private property searched for no reason. That is why it's a violation of the 4th, without even going into how this will be abused and the CSAM database hacked and everything in-between which endangers an absurd amount of innocent people. But yes, they can give law enforcement information when there's a warrant or if they witness a crime, and there's probable cause. Here they're actively looking for "crimes" and becoming private law enforcement themselves.

    Their current definition certainly sounds legitimate, and it's something most people can get on board with (protecting children), and that makes it all the more dangerous. Once installed, and a new "crime" deemed "worthy", we'll see how safe that'll be. "Under his eye".

    Just pondering...
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 68 of 69
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 5,836member
    Rayz2016 said:
    chadbag said:
    The problem is the hubris of Apple and Tim Cook and his EVP and other staff.   They are so convinced that all their "social" wokeness and initiatives are 100% correct and a mission from god (not God).  They are not listening.  They don't care.  They think they are right and just need to convince you of that.
    Yes, the hubris of Apple...and every other company that was already doing this. Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Dropbox, Snapchat, ... Oh look: "To date, over 1,400 companies are registered to make reports to NCMEC’s CyberTipline and, in addition to making reports, these companies also receive notices from NCMEC about suspected CSAM on their servers."

    https://www.missingkids.org/theissues/csam#bythenumbers
    Google, Facebook, Snapchat and Microsoft aren’t running spyware  on your phone. This is the difference that detractors of this move bring up every time, and supporters of this move are desperate to ignore. 

    Oh, and Apple already scans their servers for CSAM images, so why move it the phone? 

    And this is what this is all about, in my opinion: the spyware. Apple needs you to accept the argument that with spyware running on your phone, your privacy is safe. Wrapping it in the noble cause of child protection was a good move; they hoped that if anyone criticised them then their supporters would use cries of “think of the children!” to silence them. 

    So why are they doing it?

    So when they introduce a client-side logger to record the apps you run and the sites you visit, they can tell you your privacy is safe even though this representation of your activity is sold on to advertisers. And you will, of course, support them and agree: “No, look; it’s not an invasion of privacy! They’re only sending this bit of data. The photo of you is blurred and they’ve used AI to scrub out your face!” You will agree because you were fooled the first time round, but rather than admit it, you’ll carry on desperately ignoring the obvious fact that this is spyware Apple is running on your phone. You’ll ignore the fact that apple is trying to redefine what privacy is so they can sell yours. 

    Over the years, we’ve been throwing around the phrase, “With Google, you’re the product.”  Google monetises your data. 

    With Apple, it’s different: access to you is the product. They’ve spent years and billions of dollars cultivating a user base of affluent people who actually buy stuff … and if you want access to that user base, Apple thinks you should pay them. 

    I'm not buying your conspiracy theory. Why would they need to introduce a "client-side logger to record the apps you run and the sites you visit"? They already know what apps you run. We already log our browser activity in Safari History & Bookmarks, but that's encrypted end to end. Apple didn't have to make it that way, if they wanted to exfiltrate that data for whatever reason they could've already. No need for this feature to be present or any new "logger" type tool you're making up in your head. The idea that this is all a scam by one of the richest companies in the world is doing this all to sell our data to advertisers after telling us for years they had no intention of doing so seems specious at best. I find it bizarre that you're stating this speculative hyperbole as facts.
  • Reply 69 of 69
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 5,836member
    mfryd said:
    When it comes to a back door for searching private photo libraries, Apple is trying to create their own system of checks and balances for this new "back door".  The problem is that once the back door exists, they can no longer refuse a government order on the grounds that the request is not possible.  If Apple receives a court order to add additional items to the blacklist, they cannot legally refuse.   Thus any government can order Apple to scan private photo libraries for forbidden images.   Imagine if a Muslim country ordered Apple to add hashes of images of Mohamed to the blacklist.  If Apple has a presence in that country, they are bound to follow the laws in that country.

    Apple is wrong if they think they can create a backdoor that only Apple controls, and that they can prevent governments from tapping in to this backdoor.

    Apple doesn't control the blacklist, so such an order would be meaningless. Other companies use the same hash database, so any order to the org that maintains it would affect all companies that use it. Apple already has a mechanism for scanning all of your data — it's called Spotlight. What's to prevent a government from demanding access to the Spotlight database? Or the ML models that already scan your Photos Library for cats and dogs and people etc? What's to prevent a government from demanding they add items to that model?
Sign In or Register to comment.