Unfair use of force in Iraq?

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  • Reply 101 of 186
    noahjnoahj Posts: 4,502member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by New

    I'm saying it would be best if they were givien the chance to liberate themselves. And for that to happen certain conditions need to be present.



    And now we are back to my posts. New, stop sidestepping the issue. When do you think those conditions are going to magically appear? When Saddam dies of old age? After his sons get done having their turn at the helm? Maybe after their sons? When? Maybe after they run out of VX to gas the population into submission with?
  • Reply 102 of 186
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NoahJ

    And now we are back to my posts. New, stop sidestepping the issue. When do you think those conditions are going to magically appear? When Saddam dies of old age? After his sons get done having their turn at the helm? Maybe after their sons? When? Maybe after they run out of VX to gas the population into submission with?



    Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day.

    Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime.
  • Reply 103 of 186
    haraldharald Posts: 2,152member
    Bomb the shit out of him and he'll hate you for ever.

    So will his friends who watch babies with their heads blown off on TV.



    However much you would like for this not to be the case, it is.
  • Reply 104 of 186
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day.

    Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime.




    he who screws girl in strawberry patch, gets ass in jam.
  • Reply 105 of 186
    noahjnoahj Posts: 4,502member
    He who speaks in riddles have no answer for question.
  • Reply 106 of 186
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NoahJ

    He who speaks in riddles have no answer for question.



    Luckily for me my previous post already refutes this one....
  • Reply 107 of 186
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    I would really like for an anti-war person to answer drewprops.



    But then again, I'm asking for substance from the anti-war movement. You can't get blood from a rock!
  • Reply 108 of 186
    noahjnoahj Posts: 4,502member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    Luckily for me my previous post already refutes this one....



    Unluckily for you you do not back up that claim with more than a passing phrase. How are you going to apply that to the current real world situation sir?
  • Reply 109 of 186
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    I would really like for an anti-war person to answer drewprops.



    He didn't ask a question. He states that the only way to help the Iraqi people help themselves is to 'kill Saddam'. Of course that means we're not helping them help themselves, we're doing the deed for them and thus renders the whole discussion he was pretending to have a farce.



    The sanctions were always poorly implemented, but not a bad idea. Once aid crossed the Iraqi border it was Saddam's domain. If the U.N. were to (like humanitarian groups do in lots of places) set up the distribution channels for their aid instead of allowing Saddam to siphon off what he wants and distribute the rest to whomever he chooses, we would open the lines of communication and erode the propaganda machine he's used to control the country for ever.



    That's a perfect step one. And no, it wouldn't take years.
  • Reply 110 of 186
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    He didn't ask a question.



    He didn't?



    And those "certain conditions" that New is too timid to provide are what?



    What are those "certain conditions"?



    Those aren't questions?



    Quote:

    He states that the only way to help the Iraqi people help themselves is to 'kill Saddam'. Of course that means we're not helping them help themselves, we're doing the deed for them and thus renders the whole discussion he was pretending to have a farce.



    How would you propose we help the people overthrow Saddam.



    Quote:

    The sanctions were always poorly implemented, but not a bad idea. Once aid crossed the Iraqi border it was Saddam's domain. If the U.N. were to (like humanitarian groups do in lots of places) set up the distribution channels for their aid instead of allowing Saddam to siphon off what he wants and distribute the rest to whomever he chooses, we would open the lines of communication and erode the propaganda machine he's used to control the country for ever.



    And if Saddam decides he wants to clamp down on the distribution channels that would weaken his power? Which he would most likely do since he is a brutal dictator.



    How would the UN secure these distribution channels and prevent Saddam from doing what he wants with the aid?



    Please answer these questions.



    Quote:

    That's a perfect step one. And no, it wouldn't take years.



    Let's say your step 1 works 100% perfectly, what would that do?



    There comes a point where Saddam has to be deposed, do you think he would just wake up one day and think, "Well it seems they aren't too happy." and just step down? Have you forgotten that this is the guy who slaughters his own people?
  • Reply 111 of 186
    drewpropsdrewprops Posts: 2,321member
    Hey now, you kids don't let this thread fall off the bottom without helping me here....I really honestly would like to hear an answer to my question.



    And let's not be snippy.

    Really, I want answers not rhymes or pat little sayings.





    My question, (it's a good one) lest we forget it, is:

    What are those "certain conditions"?




    This question was posed to New, who said:

    "I'm saying it would be best if they were givien the chance to liberate themselves. And for that to happen certain conditions need to be present."




    If it makes you feel any better (don't know why it should) I wake up every morning to the news of the war on my television...and my first few minutes awake are spent with a twisted knot in my stomach. I despise our armed forces being over there. But even with that dread I realize that this is the correct enforcement of a United Nations policy; a policy that other nations are too fearful to enforce.



    I would love to know another solution that enables the Iraqi people to rise beyond the torturous gang that rules the country. It seems to me that the "solution" posed by the dissenting U.N. nations is to "wait it out".....and what, wait for it to "go away"? Hellooooo Mister Hitler!



    No, that can't be it. Your "certain conditions" argument must be more than that!

    There has to be a more holistic solution that these nations (and/or you) have in mind. One that addresses the human rights abuses and a decade of parlor games with the United Nations. One that results in a safe country where supplies can be distributed to the people who really need them and not some warlord.



    I'm very bothered by the fact that the UN is not behind this action.

    Among my greatest hopes is that one of the side-effects of this war is a reformation of the United Nations, one where it is not a powerless creche of tired politicians who have been put out to pasture by their governments. If a giant Star Goat were about to devour our planet the United Nations would be loaded onto the B-Ark and sent off as the first wave (DNA fans alone will understand that reference).



    So people, help me see a different way.



    I'm about as anti-war as they come.

    But I'm even even more anti-lawbreaker.





    Answer this question before you ask me anything else.



    ~~PLEASE~~
  • Reply 112 of 186
    randycat99randycat99 Posts: 1,919member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by drewprops If a giant Star Goat were about to devour our planet the United Nations would be loaded onto the B-Ark and sent off as the first wave (DNA fans alone will understand that reference).







    Hoping not to complicate the manner more, can we consider an analogous domestic situation that may make the situation more mentally accessible? If not, disregard- just trying to help.



    What if we consider living in a neighborhood that is utterly run, dominated, and controlled by the local street gang? They enforce a regime of intimidation, extortion, drug sale, and prostitution. How do we overthrow the gang? Speaking up is typically met with brutal consequences. Rallying support from neighbors is extremely difficult because they already know and see the consequences of such motions. The police habitually avoid the area or responding to distress calls because, literally, it is not a part of town to get caught in. What do you do?
  • Reply 113 of 186
    drewpropsdrewprops Posts: 2,321member
    Randy, just hang off for a few....I really need to hear some replies.
  • Reply 114 of 186
    randycat99randycat99 Posts: 1,919member
    Fair enough.
  • Reply 115 of 186
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    You'll never get an answer. There are no alternatives from them, only FUD.



    To get alternatives you have to think, hell you might even have to compromise. And those things require maturity.
  • Reply 116 of 186
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat



    Those aren't questions?




    A rhetorical question is no question at all. Try www.dictionary.com for a definition of a rhetorical question. I haven't checked it myself, but it's probably a good place to start.
  • Reply 117 of 186
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Rhetorical question?



    "What are those certain conditions?" is rhetorical?



    You need an education. Quick.
  • Reply 118 of 186
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat



    How would you propose we help the people overthrow Saddam.




    Saddam could control the lives of the people by controlling the food, water and communications. Give them food, water and an outside source of information and you would see a drastic change inside the country.
  • Reply 119 of 186
    jimmacjimmac Posts: 11,898member
    Did it ever dawn on you guys that this isn't the only evil tyrant out there that's doing these kind of things? Why pick this one? And what makes us world policemen anyway? I thought that was the UN's job?



    We might be the most powerful country but we're just one country of many. Trying to decide the fate of a country ( by force ) good or bad seems to undermine the fair and democratic themes we stand for and would want for those other countries.



    And once again.......why now?
  • Reply 120 of 186
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,742member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by jimmac

    Did it ever dawn on you guys that this isn't the only evil tyrant out there that's doing these kind of things? Why pick this one?



    Little things, like losing a war, signing a conditional ceasefire and breaking it, binding resolutions that were constantly breached and never really enforced.........................



    Quote:

    Originally posted by jimmac



    And what makes us world policemen anyway? I thought that was the UN's job?





    Well, i wouldn't say you are acting as the world's policeman. But, since the UN managed to bungle everything involving Iraq and essentially abdicated it responsibility, someone has to take action.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by jimmac



    Trying to decide the fate of a country ( by force ) good or bad seems to undermine the fair and democratic themes we stand for and would want for those other countries.





    Well, had the UN actually been able to get it's act together and enforce it's own binding resolutions, force would probably have been deemed necessary at some time. Point being, force is used, even by the UN and democratic nations to determine the fate of nations.
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