iOS 15 adoption rate appears to be lagging behind past updates

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 44
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,771member
    crowley said:
    elijahg said:
    I had nothing but issues with iOS 15 since launch and when people asked I told them to wait. I’ve never told people to wait until iOS 15. This version has been the buggiest I can recall in years. People realized this, along with it being optional is probably why. 
    No. Anecdotes mean nothing.
    Nor do your posts. Doesn't matter what it is you'll attack anyone who has a remotely balanced opinion and claim Apple is always the saint.
    No he’s right, there is no data that says 1) iOS 15 is buggy, or 2) that normals aren’t upgrading because of it. Present your data if you have it. Anecdotes are meaningless. I’ve had zero issues, on a household of devices…so does my anecdote defeat your anecdote?

    Anyway you sound butthurt and hyper sensitive to Apple product fans on an…Apple site. Show us where on the doll Apple hurt you. 
    This is a message board, a place for conversation, not a place where every opinion and anecdote needs to be backed up by hard data.  No need to be so aggressive at someone sharing their view.

    I've found iOS 15 to be pretty much fine, but I have little doubt that others experiences may have varied.
    He can't discuss like an adult. It's actually quite sad that someone can feel so personally attacked and offended when someone makes the slightest criticism of a $3tn company who couldn't give two shits about him.
    grandact73
  • Reply 22 of 44
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,771member
    elijahg said:
    I had nothing but issues with iOS 15 since launch and when people asked I told them to wait. I’ve never told people to wait until iOS 15. This version has been the buggiest I can recall in years. People realized this, along with it being optional is probably why. 
    No. Anecdotes mean nothing.
    Nor do your posts. Doesn't matter what it is you'll attack anyone who has a remotely balanced opinion and claim Apple is always the saint.
    No he’s right, there is no data that says 1) iOS 15 is buggy, or 2) that normals aren’t upgrading because of it. Present your data if you have it. Anecdotes are meaningless. I’ve had zero issues, on a household of devices…so does my anecdote defeat your anecdote?

    Anyway you sound butthurt and hyper sensitive to Apple product fans on an…Apple site. Show us where on the doll Apple hurt you. 
    Says the apparently grown adult that screeches like a child in a playground who lost at tag whenever someone makes the slightest suggestion that there may be a problem with their particular device/installation/version of Apple's software. You've apparently not once, ever experienced an issue with an Apple product. So either you're incredibly lucky, or you're so obsessed that you're willing to lie through your teeth against a claim by someone that you have zero way of disproving.
    grandact73
  • Reply 23 of 44
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,771member
    Hey, always-wrong-elijahg, learn some fucking logic (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com).
    Please do point out where abouts I have made a logical fallacy. Seems you need to read up on exactly what it means, because it doesn't mean what you think it does. All you're ever able to do is attack others with no reasoning as to why they might be wrong.
  • Reply 24 of 44
    elijahg said:
    crowley said:
    “ It's likely that the reduced adoption rates are because of a change in Apple's update stance. The company is no longer forcing users to install the latest operating system version to gain important security updates.”

    99.9% off the reason.

    “Apple's set of iOS 15 features -- including the controversial-but-delayed CSAM detection system -- may also be playing a part.”

    0.1% of the reason.
    Agree.  Why would a feature that most people don't know or care about and that was pulled be paying a part?
    Because people don't trust that Apple isn't doing it anyway due to the entirely out-of-the-blue way they announced it? That said I was on Big Sur until about a week ago. There was nothing compelling enough for me to spend days fixing things after they break as Apple deprecates random core bits of the OS.
    You’re talking about 6 people. 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 25 of 44
    elijahg said:
    crowley said:
    “ It's likely that the reduced adoption rates are because of a change in Apple's update stance. The company is no longer forcing users to install the latest operating system version to gain important security updates.”

    99.9% off the reason.

    “Apple's set of iOS 15 features -- including the controversial-but-delayed CSAM detection system -- may also be playing a part.”

    0.1% of the reason.
    Agree.  Why would a feature that most people don't know or care about and that was pulled be paying a part?
    Because people don't trust that Apple isn't doing it anyway due to the entirely out-of-the-blue way they announced it? That said I was on Big Sur until about a week ago. There was nothing compelling enough for me to spend days fixing things after they break as Apple deprecates random core bits of the OS.
    Why on earth would I be worried about CSAM fingerprint scanning for child rape images in iCloud Photos, even if they turned it on tomorrow? There is no reason to worry about this, since Apple already does it server-side on their iCloud servers, as do Google, Microsoft, Dropbox, etc.

    If I had child rape photos and didn’t want them to report them to police, I’d disable iCloud Photos. 

    I’m much more interested in the E2E encryption I’ll get when this eventually rolls out. That offers me value. Worrying about child rape porn? Not a concern.

    It may “technically” be E2E, as long as you disregard the the watchdog that is not yours at your front door.  Even then, it will not be true E2E… remove the thresholds and ability to report to someone else outside of the senders intended parties, then it will be true E2E.
  • Reply 26 of 44
    “ It's likely that the reduced adoption rates are because of a change in Apple's update stance. The company is no longer forcing users to install the latest operating system version to gain important security updates.”

    99.9% off the reason.

    “Apple's set of iOS 15 features -- including the controversial-but-delayed CSAM detection system -- may also be playing a part.”

    0.1% of the reason.
    As much as I am against on device CSAM detection and reporting, I’m inclined to think this is accurate.  I for one am not updating to iOS 15 for the very reason Apple has not officially stated they are canceling the “feature”.  But I also believe I am in the minority.  The general population is either ignorant, forgotten about it, or don’t care.  If I remember correctly, if auto updates were not turned on (desktops and laptops) by default, most of those computers were on stagnated versions.  No forced updates, users are not going to actively go update their software as it’s not typically part of their routine and is a hinderance to their workflow (playing games, updating spreadsheets, checking email, etc).  They don’t want to wait several minutes to get that gratification of getting something done or being entertained.  By the time they are done, its still the last thing on their minds, even if it’s there.
  • Reply 27 of 44
    I recently went to IOS 15.2.1 when I switched from an iPhone 8 to an SE Mk 2. One app had a problem in that one part of it wasn't updating as it should. I re-installed it and it is fine. This isn't a mainstream app btw. It controls my home battery system.

    One possible reason for people not updating is that for an awful lot of us there is nothing in it that is an absolute must-have.
    IOS is maturing and it is getting to the point where for me at least, it is stable enough and provided all the functionality I need.

  • Reply 28 of 44
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,281member
    Well, Apple may have decided it's not a good look if owners are not updating to iOS15. So what to do? Simple, Apple just backtracks and no longer will let us update security without updating the OS. 

    And that's just what they've now done. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 29 of 44
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,914member
    crowley said:
    elijahg said:
    I had nothing but issues with iOS 15 since launch and when people asked I told them to wait. I’ve never told people to wait until iOS 15. This version has been the buggiest I can recall in years. People realized this, along with it being optional is probably why. 
    No. Anecdotes mean nothing.
    Nor do your posts. Doesn't matter what it is you'll attack anyone who has a remotely balanced opinion and claim Apple is always the saint.
    No he’s right, there is no data that says 1) iOS 15 is buggy, or 2) that normals aren’t upgrading because of it. Present your data if you have it. Anecdotes are meaningless. I’ve had zero issues, on a household of devices…so does my anecdote defeat your anecdote?

    Anyway you sound butthurt and hyper sensitive to Apple product fans on an…Apple site. Show us where on the doll Apple hurt you. 
    This is a message board, a place for conversation, not a place where every opinion and anecdote needs to be backed up by hard data.  No need to be so aggressive at someone sharing their view.

    I've found iOS 15 to be pretty much fine, but I have little doubt that others experiences may have varied.
    Agressive? Lol. That guy goes after anyone who he feels "defends" Apple, on...an Apple site. Nevermind that discussing the value proposition provided by a company and its products isn't "defending" it. So yeah, he does sound hyper-sensitive and butthurt. 

    As for the citations -- if you make the claim that people aren't doing X because of Y, be prepared to defend the claim, and cite your data. Otherwise you're just making stuff up and pretending. Sure if that's what you want to do, go for it...but don't be surprised when people point that out.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 30 of 44
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,914member
    ITGUYINSD said:
    elijahg said:
    I had nothing but issues with iOS 15 since launch and when people asked I told them to wait. I’ve never told people to wait until iOS 15. This version has been the buggiest I can recall in years. People realized this, along with it being optional is probably why. 
    No. Anecdotes mean nothing.
    Nor do your posts. Doesn't matter what it is you'll attack anyone who has a remotely balanced opinion and claim Apple is always the saint.
    No he’s right, there is no data that says 1) iOS 15 is buggy, or 2) that normals aren’t upgrading because of it. Present your data if you have it. Anecdotes are meaningless. I’ve had zero issues, on a household of devices…so does my anecdote defeat your anecdote?

    Anyway you sound butthurt and hyper sensitive to Apple product fans on an…Apple site. Show us where on the doll Apple hurt you. 
    For data, how about Apple Support Community posts, or forum posts here or any Apple/Mac/iPhone forum?  

    The fact that you say you've had zero issues with a "household of devices" means either you don't use them, or it's a lie.  Even on a good day with a good OS, one or more of your devices will have an issue.  Nothing is perfect, so to say you've had zero issues can't not true.  My iPhone, Apple Watch, 5 Apple TV's, AirPod Pro's, a MacBook Pro M1 and a Mac Mini M1 -- none of them are "zero issues".  iPhone is riddled with issues along with issues on AW.
    No, simply stating "There are posts on forums!" isn't providing a citation or data that iOS 15 is 1) buggier than most, and 2) the reason updates are slowing. You get why, right?

    As for your claim on my household -- nope. I have multiple Macs, iPads, iPhones, Watches, HomePods, and Apple TVs in our household. Zero issues w/ iOS 15. Note that this is different than saying "I never have software problems", which I did not claim. You get the difference, right?

    Sorry you're having so much trouble.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 31 of 44
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,914member
    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:
    crowley said:
    “ It's likely that the reduced adoption rates are because of a change in Apple's update stance. The company is no longer forcing users to install the latest operating system version to gain important security updates.”

    99.9% off the reason.

    “Apple's set of iOS 15 features -- including the controversial-but-delayed CSAM detection system -- may also be playing a part.”

    0.1% of the reason.
    Agree.  Why would a feature that most people don't know or care about and that was pulled be paying a part?
    Because people don't trust that Apple isn't doing it anyway due to the entirely out-of-the-blue way they announced it? That said I was on Big Sur until about a week ago. There was nothing compelling enough for me to spend days fixing things after they break as Apple deprecates random core bits of the OS.
    Why on earth would I be worried about CSAM fingerprint scanning for child rape images in iCloud Photos, even if they turned it on tomorrow? There is no reason to worry about this, since Apple already does it server-side on their iCloud servers, as do Google, Microsoft, Dropbox, etc.

    If I had child rape photos and didn’t want them to report them to police, I’d disable iCloud Photos. 

    I’m much more interested in the E2E encryption I’ll get when this eventually rolls out. That offers me value. Worrying about child rape porn? Not a concern.
    As usual, you've missed the point. For a start people with that kind of abhorrent material (surely) wouldn't be using iCloud Photos anyway. But more to the point is the mere existence of such software makes it one hell of a lot easier for oppressive or otherwise governments & regimes to tell Apple to search for images of Winnie the Pooh for example. And if the code can already scan images in Photos, it can simply be pointed to a different directory and scan there instead, i.e. the root of the phone - so it'd scan everything. It's a lot harder for a government to surreptitiously force a company to create a whole system from scratch than it is to make them add a couple of extra hashes into an already existing system.

    What is the point in E2E encryption if it can be bypassed on the device by the manufacturer at the will of a government?
    Sorry, you've missed the point -- Apple already uses CSAM scanning, today, on its servers. And it would be much *easier* for your boogeymen of oppressive governments to force them to modify the scanning on a smaller set of servers than to re-deploy the hacked database *to all iPhones*. Or hand over anything else that this boogeyman wants Apple to hand over. There is no stopping them, by your own scenario. It's far more difficult to get Apple to build a new version of iOS and push it to the world, than it is to force them to let you ride shotgun on their servers.

    As for the rest of your claim, no, if the implementation isn't coded like that, it can't simply switch to that. Without re-deploying a new version of iOS. And again, much more involved than doing the scanning at the server-level.

    As for E2E -- sorry but your ignorance on this topic is showing. The point of deploying CSAM scanning *on the device* is exactly what enables E2E. Because the scan takes place on the encrypted device itself, and not on the server. Apple's audit reviews can't see the actual contents of the device, just a smaller version of the CSAM database match for the child rape photos the user is trying to sync (upload) to the iCloud Photos server, after a certain threshold of matches has been met. 

    Currently, by having the CSAM scanning done at the server-level (as Google and Microsoft also do), the images cannot be encrypted, or else they could not be scanned at all -- you can't scan what can't be decrypted, and E2E can't be decrypted by Apple on the server. That's why E2E is such a good thing for users. And that's why Apple is offering this on-device CSAM scanner as a law enforcement tool, since it 1) enables customers to have E2E, and 2) provides a way to catch child rape photos.

    You'll need to read more about this.

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/12/15/apple-child-safety-csam

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/08/09/apple-csam-faq
    williamlondon
  • Reply 32 of 44
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,914member
    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:
    I had nothing but issues with iOS 15 since launch and when people asked I told them to wait. I’ve never told people to wait until iOS 15. This version has been the buggiest I can recall in years. People realized this, along with it being optional is probably why. 
    No. Anecdotes mean nothing.
    Nor do your posts. Doesn't matter what it is you'll attack anyone who has a remotely balanced opinion and claim Apple is always the saint.
    No he’s right, there is no data that says 1) iOS 15 is buggy, or 2) that normals aren’t upgrading because of it. Present your data if you have it. Anecdotes are meaningless. I’ve had zero issues, on a household of devices…so does my anecdote defeat your anecdote?

    Anyway you sound butthurt and hyper sensitive to Apple product fans on an…Apple site. Show us where on the doll Apple hurt you. 
    Says the apparently grown adult that screeches like a child in a playground who lost at tag whenever someone makes the slightest suggestion that there may be a problem with their particular device/installation/version of Apple's software. You've apparently not once, ever experienced an issue with an Apple product. So either you're incredibly lucky, or you're so obsessed that you're willing to lie through your teeth against a claim by someone that you have zero way of disproving.
    Nah, you're just making up straw man arguments because you're intellectually dishonest. I've had plenty of issues w/ my tools, Apple included. I have 12,000 posts here, if you don't think there are plenty talking about issues then what can I say...you're ignorant.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 33 of 44
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,914member
    elijahg said:
    Hey, always-wrong-elijahg, learn some fucking logic (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com).
    Please do point out where abouts I have made a logical fallacy. Seems you need to read up on exactly what it means, because it doesn't mean what you think it does. All you're ever able to do is attack others with no reasoning as to why they might be wrong.
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

    Strawman - claiming I said I never have problems with my tools. Nope, never said that. (I said I haven't had any iOS 15-specific issues)

    Slippery Slope - claiming if Apple deploys child rape CSAM scanning on a new version of iOS, govt's will force them to modify it do XY and Z.

    There ya go, son.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 34 of 44
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,914member
    elijahg said:
    crowley said:
    “ It's likely that the reduced adoption rates are because of a change in Apple's update stance. The company is no longer forcing users to install the latest operating system version to gain important security updates.”

    99.9% off the reason.

    “Apple's set of iOS 15 features -- including the controversial-but-delayed CSAM detection system -- may also be playing a part.”

    0.1% of the reason.
    Agree.  Why would a feature that most people don't know or care about and that was pulled be paying a part?
    Because people don't trust that Apple isn't doing it anyway due to the entirely out-of-the-blue way they announced it? That said I was on Big Sur until about a week ago. There was nothing compelling enough for me to spend days fixing things after they break as Apple deprecates random core bits of the OS.
    Why on earth would I be worried about CSAM fingerprint scanning for child rape images in iCloud Photos, even if they turned it on tomorrow? There is no reason to worry about this, since Apple already does it server-side on their iCloud servers, as do Google, Microsoft, Dropbox, etc.

    If I had child rape photos and didn’t want them to report them to police, I’d disable iCloud Photos. 

    I’m much more interested in the E2E encryption I’ll get when this eventually rolls out. That offers me value. Worrying about child rape porn? Not a concern.

    It may “technically” be E2E, as long as you disregard the the watchdog that is not yours at your front door.  Even then, it will not be true E2E… remove the thresholds and ability to report to someone else outside of the senders intended parties, then it will be true E2E.
    Incorrect. Sorry but you're speaking from ignorance here. Deploying 100% E2E is exactly why Apple designed on-device child rape CSAM scanning. It scans on the device because once it gets synced to iCloud, they can't scan it there because...encrypted. 

    The only person who is unhappy in this scenario is somebody with child rape photos on their device. The greater good is clearly on the side of all the customers in the world who will enjoy E2E privacy on all their data, vs the child rape collectors unhappy that they will still get in trouble. Oh well.

    Currently CSAM child rape photo scanning takes place on the servers of Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc. If some nefarious govt wants to make them look for Winnie the Pooh images, they can do that easier server-side, and could force them to do it today. Nothing about on-device makes it any easier, and arguably more difficult.
    edited January 2022 williamlondon
  • Reply 35 of 44
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    crowley said:
    elijahg said:
    I had nothing but issues with iOS 15 since launch and when people asked I told them to wait. I’ve never told people to wait until iOS 15. This version has been the buggiest I can recall in years. People realized this, along with it being optional is probably why. 
    No. Anecdotes mean nothing.
    Nor do your posts. Doesn't matter what it is you'll attack anyone who has a remotely balanced opinion and claim Apple is always the saint.
    No he’s right, there is no data that says 1) iOS 15 is buggy, or 2) that normals aren’t upgrading because of it. Present your data if you have it. Anecdotes are meaningless. I’ve had zero issues, on a household of devices…so does my anecdote defeat your anecdote?

    Anyway you sound butthurt and hyper sensitive to Apple product fans on an…Apple site. Show us where on the doll Apple hurt you. 
    This is a message board, a place for conversation, not a place where every opinion and anecdote needs to be backed up by hard data.  No need to be so aggressive at someone sharing their view.

    I've found iOS 15 to be pretty much fine, but I have little doubt that others experiences may have varied.
    Agressive? Lol. That guy goes after anyone who he feels "defends" Apple, on...an Apple site. Nevermind that discussing the value proposition provided by a company and its products isn't "defending" it. So yeah, he does sound hyper-sensitive and butthurt. 

    As for the citations -- if you make the claim that people aren't doing X because of Y, be prepared to defend the claim, and cite your data. Otherwise you're just making stuff up and pretending. Sure if that's what you want to do, go for it...but don't be surprised when people point that out.
    You're suggesting that crazyexcalibur is making up their experience with iOS 15?  That's what I mean by aggressive, completely uncalled for accusations of dishonesty, alongside Williamlondon's terse dismissal of their experience.

    They're entitled to their opinion, and you're entitled to say that you don't think there's broader evidence to support their experience being common, but saying that they're making stuff up and pretending is aggressive and rude.
    ctt_zhmuthuk_vanalingamgatorguy
  • Reply 36 of 44
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,914member
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    elijahg said:
    I had nothing but issues with iOS 15 since launch and when people asked I told them to wait. I’ve never told people to wait until iOS 15. This version has been the buggiest I can recall in years. People realized this, along with it being optional is probably why. 
    No. Anecdotes mean nothing.
    Nor do your posts. Doesn't matter what it is you'll attack anyone who has a remotely balanced opinion and claim Apple is always the saint.
    No he’s right, there is no data that says 1) iOS 15 is buggy, or 2) that normals aren’t upgrading because of it. Present your data if you have it. Anecdotes are meaningless. I’ve had zero issues, on a household of devices…so does my anecdote defeat your anecdote?

    Anyway you sound butthurt and hyper sensitive to Apple product fans on an…Apple site. Show us where on the doll Apple hurt you. 
    This is a message board, a place for conversation, not a place where every opinion and anecdote needs to be backed up by hard data.  No need to be so aggressive at someone sharing their view.

    I've found iOS 15 to be pretty much fine, but I have little doubt that others experiences may have varied.
    Agressive? Lol. That guy goes after anyone who he feels "defends" Apple, on...an Apple site. Nevermind that discussing the value proposition provided by a company and its products isn't "defending" it. So yeah, he does sound hyper-sensitive and butthurt. 

    As for the citations -- if you make the claim that people aren't doing X because of Y, be prepared to defend the claim, and cite your data. Otherwise you're just making stuff up and pretending. Sure if that's what you want to do, go for it...but don't be surprised when people point that out.
    You're suggesting that crazyexcalibur is making up their experience with iOS 15?  That's what I mean by aggressive, completely uncalled for accusations of dishonesty, alongside Williamlondon's terse dismissal of their experience.

    They're entitled to their opinion, and you're entitled to say that you don't think there's broader evidence to support their experience being common, but saying that they're making stuff up and pretending is aggressive and rude.
    Nope, never claimed that -- another straw man argument (Boy some you can't get enough of those!). You're getting confused or having trouble following along. So a refresher... crazyexcalibur claimed 1) iOS 15 is buggier than other versions. 2) That's why people aren't updating. Right here in post #6:

    This version has been the buggiest I can recall in years. People realized this, along with it being optional is probably why. 

    ...then came discussion challenging these two claims, asking for citations, pointing out that personal anecdotes don't make claims true, etc. I haven't seen anyone claim he didn't experience issues. Certainly not me. 

    Later, in post #29, I said to you -- if you want a free-form place where people make claims without evidence, then you want a place where people just pretend whatever claim they make is true just because they said it. If that's what you want, go for it...but don't be surprised when people point out the claims are unsubstantiated. 

    I'm still waiting to see this non-anecdotal evidence that 1) iOS 15 is buggier than other versions. 2) That's why people aren't updating. I'm beginning to think I won't see it tho.

    Anyway, there's only so much time in the day for silliness. I'm at my limit for this thread...Have a great weekend!
    edited January 2022 williamlondon
  • Reply 37 of 44
    iPadOS 15.1 (and its successor 15.2) are an abomination in every way possible.

    The issues are too numerous to list...
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 38 of 44
    Critical thinking and logic really need to be embraced by some here, but then they might lose their troll status and stop being such fucking morons.
  • Reply 39 of 44
    elijahg said:
    crowley said:
    “ It's likely that the reduced adoption rates are because of a change in Apple's update stance. The company is no longer forcing users to install the latest operating system version to gain important security updates.”

    99.9% off the reason.

    “Apple's set of iOS 15 features -- including the controversial-but-delayed CSAM detection system -- may also be playing a part.”

    0.1% of the reason.
    Agree.  Why would a feature that most people don't know or care about and that was pulled be paying a part?
    Because people don't trust that Apple isn't doing it anyway due to the entirely out-of-the-blue way they announced it? That said I was on Big Sur until about a week ago. There was nothing compelling enough for me to spend days fixing things after they break as Apple deprecates random core bits of the OS.
    Why on earth would I be worried about CSAM fingerprint scanning for child rape images in iCloud Photos, even if they turned it on tomorrow? There is no reason to worry about this, since Apple already does it server-side on their iCloud servers, as do Google, Microsoft, Dropbox, etc.

    If I had child rape photos and didn’t want them to report them to police, I’d disable iCloud Photos. 

    I’m much more interested in the E2E encryption I’ll get when this eventually rolls out. That offers me value. Worrying about child rape porn? Not a concern.

    It may “technically” be E2E, as long as you disregard the the watchdog that is not yours at your front door.  Even then, it will not be true E2E… remove the thresholds and ability to report to someone else outside of the senders intended parties, then it will be true E2E.
    Incorrect. Sorry but you're speaking from ignorance here. Deploying 100% E2E is exactly why Apple designed on-device child rape CSAM scanning. It scans on the device because once it gets synced to iCloud, they can't scan it there because...encrypted. 

    The only person who is unhappy in this scenario is somebody with child rape photos on their device. The greater good is clearly on the side of all the customers in the world who will enjoy E2E privacy on all their data, vs the child rape collectors unhappy that they will still get in trouble. Oh well.

    Currently CSAM child rape photo scanning takes place on the servers of Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc. If some nefarious govt wants to make them look for Winnie the Pooh images, they can do that easier server-side, and could force them to do it today. Nothing about on-device makes it any easier, and arguably more difficult.
    What good is E2E if someone is watching everything going in and reporting to their boss?
    williamlondonelijahg
  • Reply 40 of 44
    Incorrect. Sorry but you're speaking from ignorance here. Deploying 100% E2E is exactly why Apple designed on-device child rape CSAM scanning.
    Do you work for Apple? Do you know an insider at Apple that has stated so? Has Apple officially released this detail somewhere?  You’re making an assumption here, and it’s no better than what pundits do that I see bashed all the time here.  Apple may, or may not, be implementing a sort of encryption that would be “wish it were real E2E” (think of the basic security questions banks ask, which is a type of “wish it were 2 factor auth”, it’s not the real thing, dumpster divers can find that info, and at best it’s just secondary passwords “something you know”… real 2F is something you know, and something you have, 3F is something you know, something you have, and something you are.). The whole point of this is, real E2E is when I, in secret, encrypt a message, that no one else knows it’s contents, and it stays encrypted until it reaches the target audience, who has the capability to decrypt it (at which point you have to trust they will not share that info, or someone or something is not watching).  But the point is behind E2E is that only you, the sender are privy to the contents, and sometime later, the target audience is also privy.

    point is, even if some criminal were using it (probably not unless they are dumb, because of server side CSAM), they can encrypt their stash using something like TrueCrypt (and even use the plausible deniability mode that double encrypts it) and store it in a general file sharing/storage service like Dropbox or Google drive.  Or heck, even just keep it local and just sync it to their own devices.  They’ll find ways to see and propagate it.

    im not saying apple shouldn’t do CSAM… they should, but keep it on the server side.  It’s encrypted in transit (https) and is probably encrypted at rest, so only a few who have the keys may have access to it at Apple.  How does that change if the move to on device scanning and reporting? 

    As I’ve said before:
    Apple has used a threshold algorithm to enable review of the contents… remove that, and you will have true e2e encryption; otherwise it’s just “wish it were e2e”. It’s close, but no cigar.

    Once a threshold is met what happens then? Do we trust Apple to handle the data correctly? Do we trust the authorities will handle the data correctly?  Do we trust individuals at these places not to share it or leak it?  Do we trust that the thresholds won’t change? Do we trust that other types of images won’t be deemed “illicit” in the future? Do we trust a similar threshold algorithm won’t be applied to text in imessages, looking for messages of terrorism or “hate” speech?  Do we trust that it will only be done for photos uploaded to iCloud?

    I see no difference:

     - Someone having limited access outside the intended audience to the data with on device scanning and reporting…

    - Someone having limited access outside the intended audience to the data with server side scanning and reporting…

    The only difference here is where it’s done, and on device has more serious privacy problems than the server side.


    I treat anything I sent to iCloud photos as public knowledge, aka anything I want to keep private stays on my devices.  On device scanning and reporting encroaches on that privacy (even given the current software “limitations” of thresholds and only done when sent to iCloud)… so, given that, I would much rather the CSAM reporting stay server side.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    ctt_zhwilliamlondonmuthuk_vanalingamelijahg
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