Microsoft's new app store pledge preserves its walled garden on Xbox

Posted:
in General Discussion edited February 2022
Microsoft has announced a series of 11 pledges to do with App Store and fair dealing with developers, but won't apply 4 major ones to its Xbox store.




As governments around the world put pressure on Apple and Google over regulating their platforms, Microsoft has announced what it calls "a principled approach to app stores." Specifically done to adapt "ahead of regulation," Microsoft says its 11 principles address its "growing role and responsibility" in the market since its acquisition of Activision Blizzard.

"[Too] much friction exists today between creators and gamers," says Microsoft in a blog post, "app store policies and practices on mobile devices restrict what and how creators can offer games and what and how gamers can play them."

"Our large investment to acquire Activision Blizzard further strengthens our resolve to remove this friction on behalf of creators and gamers alike," it continues. "We want to enable world-class content to reach every gamer more easily across every platform."

"Put simply, the world needs open app markets, and this requires open app stores," says Microsoft. "The principles we're announcing today reflect our commitment to this goal."

Open App Store Principles

What Microsoft calls its Open App Store Principles, are 11 pledges that fall into four categories:

  • Quality, Safety, Security & Privacy

  • Accountability

  • Fairness and Transparancy

  • Developer Choice

The pledges in these categories include ones such as enabling all developers to access the store, and protecting consumers with security and privacy tools. Microsoft says it will "hold our own apps to the same standards we hold competing apps," and by implication, avoid the anti-steering criticisms that Apple has faced.

Of the 11 pledges, Microsoft says only its first 7 will apply to the Xbox store. That means Xbox won't benefit from any of the Developer Choice category.

The pledges in this category all revolve around payment systems, which is key to the major criticisms of Apple and Google.

"[Some] may ask why today's principles do not apply immediately and wholesale to the current Xbox console store," says Microsoft in its blog. "It's important to recognize that emerging legislation is being written to address app stores on those platforms that matter most to creators and consumers: PCs, mobile phones and other general purpose computing devices."

"Emerging legislation is not being written for specialized computing devices, like gaming consoles, for good reasons," it continues. "Gaming consoles, specifically, are sold to gamers at a loss to establish a robust and viable ecosystem for game developers."

Microsoft concludes by saying that "we recognize that we will need to adapt our business model even for the store on the Xbox console," and that it will be "closing the gap... over time."

Read on AppleInsider
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 43
    So don’t sell at a loss, and produce enough of them? (Instead of artificial shortages that are obvious ploys to boost desirability.)

    The “robust and viable ecosystem for game developers" argument is such horseshit if you look at where indie developers are actually making money (or rather not making money…) Does anyone buy the idea that MS is soooooo into gaming that it loses billions of $$ on a passion project? (Or that that would be legal, given it’s duty to shareholders.) 

    I’d argue that MS and others like it intentionally create the economic circumstances that make working for AAA studios the only sad “viable” option for most developers. The only people that are benefiting here are investors.  
    aderutterforegoneconclusionStrangeDaysviclauyycwatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 43
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    So much stupidity I don’t know where to start. Translations: “Mobile phones should be stopped!! We failed at making iKnockoffs so damn them all!!” “App stores should be open except ours!!” “We sell our hardware at a loss so punish everyone who makes a profit!!”
    foregoneconclusionStrangeDayslolliverviclauyycjahbladenarwhalwatto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 43
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    Corporations are like politicians, if their lips are moving they are lying. Like politicians, they promise the moon but deliver something else completely. Virtue signaling by corporations is the most laughable tactic of all. As always and forever with corporations and politicians... follow the money, baby.
    muthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondonviclauyycjahblade
  • Reply 4 of 43
    Microsoft keeps claiming that they sell Xbox at a "loss", but refused to provide any actual numbers to verify the claim during the original Epic trial. The truth is probably closer to "consoles are sold at a loss initially". Sony has already stated that specific models of the PS5 became profitable within the first year of launch. There's no real reason that the Series X couldn't do the same. 

    As for their Open App Store principles, it's obvious that it's mainly about getting access to Apple's hardware and not much else. It's not a coincidence that companies like Epic/Microsoft that were so heavily oriented around PC/consoles are suddenly concerned about gaming on mobile at the same time that mobile gaming now generates more revenue than PC/console gaming combined.
    edited February 2022 StrangeDaysJapheyBeatslolliverviclauyycjahbladefreeassociate2watto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 43
    So don’t sell at a loss, and produce enough of them? (Instead of artificial shortages that are obvious ploys to boost desirability.)

    The “robust and viable ecosystem for game developers" argument is such horseshit if you look at where indie developers are actually making money (or rather not making money…) Does anyone buy the idea that MS is soooooo into gaming that it loses billions of $$ on a passion project? (Or that that would be legal, given it’s duty to shareholders.) 

    I’d argue that MS and others like it intentionally create the economic circumstances that make working for AAA studios the only sad “viable” option for most developers. The only people that are benefiting here are investors.  
    If consoles weren't sold at a loss, they would cost 50% more and far fewer people would buy them. You folks don't understand: not very many people buy consoles. About 50 million XBox One consoles were sold over 7 years. That is probably about the number of Google Pixel phones that sold in that timeframe. And no, these shortages aren't artificial. First off, these shortages did not exist with the PS4, XBox One, PS3, XBox 360 etc. These shortages are due to TSMC being the only foundry capable of making an integrated SOC for these devices that don't overheat. This is the same TSMC that also can't fill all of Apple's orders, forcing Apple to prioritize iPhones over iPads, remember?
    AMD's Zen 4 chips were supposed to launch in November 2021. At this rate AMD will consider themselves lucky if they launch in October 2022, and they have even had to shift some orders to Samsung, just as Intel - who will use TSMC's fabs for some orders in 2023 - considered doing and Nvidia did last year for Ampere GPUs.

    The console business model is totally different from the mobile device one. Samsung alone sells more smartphones in 1 year than the entire console industry - Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and the minor players - sells in an entire generation. Yes, the Nintendo Switch sells at a profit. But do you know why? The Nintendo Switch is actually the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet from 2015 running the Nintendo 3DS operating system (based on FreeBSD) along with some Android components and Nvidia software. The Nvidia Shield K1 tablet was $200 when it originally launched! 

    I can see you bashing Microsoft - decades of hate I guess - but you realize that by doing this you are also trashing Sony, whose console costs the same, whose shortages are even worse, and who has nothing to do with these app store battles with Epic Games and regulators. The PlayStation is their last big money hardware product left. The iPod and iPhone killed off the Walkman, boom boxes and the other consumer audio products that were massive for them in the 80s and 90s. Streaming - and streaming boxes - killed off their VHS, DVD and Blu-ray line. They so badly botched their attempts to make Android devices that they don't even bother to distribute more than a few units outside Japan (iPhone 70% market share) anymore. Their TV line is being battered by South Korean and Chinese competition. They are also only "one among many" when it comes to selling headphones (where they get crushed by AirPods) and speakers (getting devalued by smart products from Amazon, Sonos, Google and Apple). And they ditched their PC line ages ago because they could no longer compete with HP, Dell, Lenovo and Apple (Toshiba made the same decision). 

    If you have some business plan or strategy where Sony could make $200 per unit on the PS5 and still sell enough to make money selling $70 copies of the Spider-Man game go ahead and share it. My guess is that you don't, and you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants. You are probably ROOTING for the console makers to fail so Apple could take their place. Just as pretty much everyone on this site was rooting for Nintento to fail 5 years ago so Apple could buy them and make Mario, Link, Pokemon etc. exclusives on Apple TV (so that people would actually start buying them), iPads and iPhones.
    muthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondon
  • Reply 6 of 43
    So don’t sell at a loss, and produce enough of them? (Instead of artificial shortages that are obvious ploys to boost desirability.)

    The “robust and viable ecosystem for game developers" argument is such horseshit if you look at where indie developers are actually making money (or rather not making money…) Does anyone buy the idea that MS is soooooo into gaming that it loses billions of $$ on a passion project? (Or that that would be legal, given it’s duty to shareholders.) 

    I’d argue that MS and others like it intentionally create the economic circumstances that make working for AAA studios the only sad “viable” option for most developers. The only people that are benefiting here are investors.  
    If consoles weren't sold at a loss, they would cost 50% more and far fewer people would buy them. You folks don't understand: not very many people buy consoles. About 50 million XBox One consoles were sold over 7 years. That is probably about the number of Google Pixel phones that sold in that timeframe. And no, these shortages aren't artificial. First off, these shortages did not exist with the PS4, XBox One, PS3, XBox 360 etc. These shortages are due to TSMC being the only foundry capable of making an integrated SOC for these devices that don't overheat. This is the same TSMC that also can't fill all of Apple's orders, forcing Apple to prioritize iPhones over iPads, remember?
    AMD's Zen 4 chips were supposed to launch in November 2021. At this rate AMD will consider themselves lucky if they launch in October 2022, and they have even had to shift some orders to Samsung, just as Intel - who will use TSMC's fabs for some orders in 2023 - considered doing and Nvidia did last year for Ampere GPUs.

    The console business model is totally different from the mobile device one. Samsung alone sells more smartphones in 1 year than the entire console industry - Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and the minor players - sells in an entire generation. Yes, the Nintendo Switch sells at a profit. But do you know why? The Nintendo Switch is actually the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet from 2015 running the Nintendo 3DS operating system (based on FreeBSD) along with some Android components and Nvidia software. The Nvidia Shield K1 tablet was $200 when it originally launched! 

    I can see you bashing Microsoft - decades of hate I guess - but you realize that by doing this you are also trashing Sony, whose console costs the same, whose shortages are even worse, and who has nothing to do with these app store battles with Epic Games and regulators. The PlayStation is their last big money hardware product left. The iPod and iPhone killed off the Walkman, boom boxes and the other consumer audio products that were massive for them in the 80s and 90s. Streaming - and streaming boxes - killed off their VHS, DVD and Blu-ray line. They so badly botched their attempts to make Android devices that they don't even bother to distribute more than a few units outside Japan (iPhone 70% market share) anymore. Their TV line is being battered by South Korean and Chinese competition. They are also only "one among many" when it comes to selling headphones (where they get crushed by AirPods) and speakers (getting devalued by smart products from Amazon, Sonos, Google and Apple). And they ditched their PC line ages ago because they could no longer compete with HP, Dell, Lenovo and Apple (Toshiba made the same decision). 

    If you have some business plan or strategy where Sony could make $200 per unit on the PS5 and still sell enough to make money selling $70 copies of the Spider-Man game go ahead and share it. My guess is that you don't, and you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants. You are probably ROOTING for the console makers to fail so Apple could take their place. Just as pretty much everyone on this site was rooting for Nintento to fail 5 years ago so Apple could buy them and make Mario, Link, Pokemon etc. exclusives on Apple TV (so that people would actually start buying them), iPads and iPhones.
    You say that the console business is different from the mobile business.

    So.. Why do we have to listen to Microsoft then??? Microsoft clearly tried to launch smartphones with their own Window OS, which failed. Their fault. Not Apple´s fault. 

    Microsoft is giving a lot of BS this time because Microsoft is jealous that AAPL and GOOGL are so successful with their smartphones and smoothly running OS, which Microsoft wished to have. 


    9secondkox2Beatslollivervelasariusjahbladebestkeptsecretwatto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 43
    highframerate said: If consoles weren't sold at a loss, they would cost 50% more and far fewer people would buy them. 
    https://www.techspot.com/news/90672-sony-standard-ps5-has-become-profitable-but-digital.html

    https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/325504-sony-finally-turns-a-profit-on-499-ps5

    Sony's MORE expensive $499 PS5 model became profitable in less than one year. 
    tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 43
    Microsoft choosing to sell their crap console at a loss in no way makes them able to run a closed market. It’s a problem for their managers selling shit below cost, yes? The best option, don’t sell it below cost. And allow for the market to blossom with alternative stores and payment systems.

    highframerate said:
    So don’t sell at a loss, and produce enough of them? (Instead of artificial shortages that are obvious ploys to boost desirability.)

    The “robust and viable ecosystem for game developers" argument is such horseshit if you look at where indie developers are actually making money (or rather not making money…) Does anyone buy the idea that MS is soooooo into gaming that it loses billions of $$ on a passion project? (Or that that would be legal, given it’s duty to shareholders.) 

    I’d argue that MS and others like it intentionally create the economic circumstances that make working for AAA studios the only sad “viable” option for most developers. The only people that are benefiting here are investors.  
    If consoles weren't sold at a loss, they would cost 50% more and far fewer people would buy them. You folks don't understand: not very many people buy consoles. About 50 million XBox One consoles were sold over 7 years. That is probably about the number of Google Pixel phones that sold in that timeframe. And no, these shortages aren't artificial. First off, these shortages did not exist with the PS4, XBox One, PS3, XBox 360 etc. These shortages are due to TSMC being the only foundry capable of making an integrated SOC for these devices that don't overheat. This is the same TSMC that also can't fill all of Apple's orders, forcing Apple to prioritize iPhones over iPads, remember?
    AMD's Zen 4 chips were supposed to launch in November 2021. At this rate AMD will consider themselves lucky if they launch in October 2022, and they have even had to shift some orders to Samsung, just as Intel - who will use TSMC's fabs for some orders in 2023 - considered doing and Nvidia did last year for Ampere GPUs.

    The console business model is totally different from the mobile device one. Samsung alone sells more smartphones in 1 year than the entire console industry - Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and the minor players - sells in an entire generation. Yes, the Nintendo Switch sells at a profit. But do you know why? The Nintendo Switch is actually the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet from 2015 running the Nintendo 3DS operating system (based on FreeBSD) along with some Android components and Nvidia software. The Nvidia Shield K1 tablet was $200 when it originally launched! 

    I can see you bashing Microsoft - decades of hate I guess - but you realize that by doing this you are also trashing Sony, whose console costs the same, whose shortages are even worse, and who has nothing to do with these app store battles with Epic Games and regulators. The PlayStation is their last big money hardware product left. The iPod and iPhone killed off the Walkman, boom boxes and the other consumer audio products that were massive for them in the 80s and 90s. Streaming - and streaming boxes - killed off their VHS, DVD and Blu-ray line. They so badly botched their attempts to make Android devices that they don't even bother to distribute more than a few units outside Japan (iPhone 70% market share) anymore. Their TV line is being battered by South Korean and Chinese competition. They are also only "one among many" when it comes to selling headphones (where they get crushed by AirPods) and speakers (getting devalued by smart products from Amazon, Sonos, Google and Apple). And they ditched their PC line ages ago because they could no longer compete with HP, Dell, Lenovo and Apple (Toshiba made the same decision). 

    If you have some business plan or strategy where Sony could make $200 per unit on the PS5 and still sell enough to make money selling $70 copies of the Spider-Man game go ahead and share it. My guess is that you don't, and you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants. You are probably ROOTING for the console makers to fail so Apple could take their place. Just as pretty much everyone on this site was rooting for Nintento to fail 5 years ago so Apple could buy them and make Mario, Link, Pokemon etc. exclusives on Apple TV (so that people would actually start buying them), iPads and iPhones.

    williamlondonviclauyycwatto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 43
    So one of the biggest bullies in the world is now acting like they’re consumer and developer allies. 

    It’s all smoke to keep the investigations off of them and focused on Apple. 

    The irony is that it’s because of them, that Steve Jobs created the “walled garden”. If he hadn’t, would the iPhone been as popular or would it have ended up like the Mac in the early 90s?
    tmayBeatsjahbladegenovellewatto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 43
    So don’t sell at a loss, and produce enough of them? (Instead of artificial shortages that are obvious ploys to boost desirability.)

    The “robust and viable ecosystem for game developers" argument is such horseshit if you look at where indie developers are actually making money (or rather not making money…) Does anyone buy the idea that MS is soooooo into gaming that it loses billions of $$ on a passion project? (Or that that would be legal, given it’s duty to shareholders.) 

    I’d argue that MS and others like it intentionally create the economic circumstances that make working for AAA studios the only sad “viable” option for most developers. The only people that are benefiting here are investors.  
    If consoles weren't sold at a loss, they would cost 50% more and far fewer people would buy them. You folks don't understand: not very many people buy consoles. About 50 million XBox One consoles were sold over 7 years. That is probably about the number of Google Pixel phones that sold in that timeframe. And no, these shortages aren't artificial. First off, these shortages did not exist with the PS4, XBox One, PS3, XBox 360 etc. These shortages are due to TSMC being the only foundry capable of making an integrated SOC for these devices that don't overheat. This is the same TSMC that also can't fill all of Apple's orders, forcing Apple to prioritize iPhones over iPads, remember?
    AMD's Zen 4 chips were supposed to launch in November 2021. At this rate AMD will consider themselves lucky if they launch in October 2022, and they have even had to shift some orders to Samsung, just as Intel - who will use TSMC's fabs for some orders in 2023 - considered doing and Nvidia did last year for Ampere GPUs.

    The console business model is totally different from the mobile device one. Samsung alone sells more smartphones in 1 year than the entire console industry - Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and the minor players - sells in an entire generation. Yes, the Nintendo Switch sells at a profit. But do you know why? The Nintendo Switch is actually the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet from 2015 running the Nintendo 3DS operating system (based on FreeBSD) along with some Android components and Nvidia software. The Nvidia Shield K1 tablet was $200 when it originally launched! 

    I can see you bashing Microsoft - decades of hate I guess - but you realize that by doing this you are also trashing Sony, whose console costs the same, whose shortages are even worse, and who has nothing to do with these app store battles with Epic Games and regulators. The PlayStation is their last big money hardware product left. The iPod and iPhone killed off the Walkman, boom boxes and the other consumer audio products that were massive for them in the 80s and 90s. Streaming - and streaming boxes - killed off their VHS, DVD and Blu-ray line. They so badly botched their attempts to make Android devices that they don't even bother to distribute more than a few units outside Japan (iPhone 70% market share) anymore. Their TV line is being battered by South Korean and Chinese competition. They are also only "one among many" when it comes to selling headphones (where they get crushed by AirPods) and speakers (getting devalued by smart products from Amazon, Sonos, Google and Apple). And they ditched their PC line ages ago because they could no longer compete with HP, Dell, Lenovo and Apple (Toshiba made the same decision). 

    If you have some business plan or strategy where Sony could make $200 per unit on the PS5 and still sell enough to make money selling $70 copies of the Spider-Man game go ahead and share it. My guess is that you don't, and you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants. You are probably ROOTING for the console makers to fail so Apple could take their place. Just as pretty much everyone on this site was rooting for Nintento to fail 5 years ago so Apple could buy them and make Mario, Link, Pokemon etc. exclusives on Apple TV (so that people would actually start buying them), iPads and iPhones.
    You assumptions are bogus - why should Sony make $200 per console? That’s huge profit. Many/most CE devices make much smaller profit margins. 

    All your rambling boils down to is saying they’ve failed to make a profitable product so deserve an exception to open app store rules. That simply doesn’t make any sense. 
    mike1tmaywilliamlondonBeatsfreeassociate2viclauyycbestkeptsecretnarwhalwatto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 43
    So… Microsoft copies Apples principles and then subtlety jabs at them? LOL

    Then trying to make their purchase of activision seem like a benefit for gamers? 

    This is just Microsoft trying to copy a successful formula from Apple and spin it with double talk from their butts. Again. 

    Apple has done everything to make a fair, secure, and open App Store that people actually like and choose over competitors. That’s a good thing not a bad one. 

    With tactics like this, Microsoft is showing they are not for users/gamers. They are for themselves. And when they think they see blood in the water, they don’t miss an opportunity to pounce. The only problem is that, historically, their feeding frenzy leads to them biting themselves and missing the target, leading to product snd service shutdowns and losses due to consumers not being as gullible as they think. 

    Looks like more of the same in store for the near future. 

    Too bad apple didn’t buy bungie and let Sony scoop them up. All bungie games are amazing and their IPs are successful for the long term. I can’t remember the last time I played an activision blizzard game. The stupid looking designs of Warcraft are annoying, call of duty feels like gaming with training wheels still on, and everything else is just old. Played Destiny 2 yesterday and looking forward to the expansion this month. 

    Activision is decent I guess. Blizzard was decent at one time. But bungie is Epic. Vision, talent, craftsmanship, and care. That’s why they’ll be successful moving into the future. Activision is a big bag of hurt right now. 

    As far as app stores, Apple has had it right since the beginning. No need to change what is fair, secure, works very well, snd is above board morally and legally. It’s not right for lawmakers to change the goalposts whenever a competitor (or partner/competitor) wants to push things. Just because an accusation is leveled doesn’t make it true. 
    edited February 2022 Beatsviclauyycwatto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 43
    So don’t sell at a loss, and produce enough of them? (Instead of artificial shortages that are obvious ploys to boost desirability.)

    The “robust and viable ecosystem for game developers" argument is such horseshit if you look at where indie developers are actually making money (or rather not making money…) Does anyone buy the idea that MS is soooooo into gaming that it loses billions of $$ on a passion project? (Or that that would be legal, given it’s duty to shareholders.) 

    I’d argue that MS and others like it intentionally create the economic circumstances that make working for AAA studios the only sad “viable” option for most developers. The only people that are benefiting here are investors.  
    If consoles weren't sold at a loss, they would cost 50% more and far fewer people would buy them. You folks don't understand: not very many people buy consoles. About 50 million XBox One consoles were sold over 7 years. That is probably about the number of Google Pixel phones that sold in that timeframe. And no, these shortages aren't artificial. First off, these shortages did not exist with the PS4, XBox One, PS3, XBox 360 etc. These shortages are due to TSMC being the only foundry capable of making an integrated SOC for these devices that don't overheat. This is the same TSMC that also can't fill all of Apple's orders, forcing Apple to prioritize iPhones over iPads, remember?
    AMD's Zen 4 chips were supposed to launch in November 2021. At this rate AMD will consider themselves lucky if they launch in October 2022, and they have even had to shift some orders to Samsung, just as Intel - who will use TSMC's fabs for some orders in 2023 - considered doing and Nvidia did last year for Ampere GPUs.

    The console business model is totally different from the mobile device one. Samsung alone sells more smartphones in 1 year than the entire console industry - Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and the minor players - sells in an entire generation. Yes, the Nintendo Switch sells at a profit. But do you know why? The Nintendo Switch is actually the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet from 2015 running the Nintendo 3DS operating system (based on FreeBSD) along with some Android components and Nvidia software. The Nvidia Shield K1 tablet was $200 when it originally launched! 

    I can see you bashing Microsoft - decades of hate I guess - but you realize that by doing this you are also trashing Sony, whose console costs the same, whose shortages are even worse, and who has nothing to do with these app store battles with Epic Games and regulators. The PlayStation is their last big money hardware product left. The iPod and iPhone killed off the Walkman, boom boxes and the other consumer audio products that were massive for them in the 80s and 90s. Streaming - and streaming boxes - killed off their VHS, DVD and Blu-ray line. They so badly botched their attempts to make Android devices that they don't even bother to distribute more than a few units outside Japan (iPhone 70% market share) anymore. Their TV line is being battered by South Korean and Chinese competition. They are also only "one among many" when it comes to selling headphones (where they get crushed by AirPods) and speakers (getting devalued by smart products from Amazon, Sonos, Google and Apple). And they ditched their PC line ages ago because they could no longer compete with HP, Dell, Lenovo and Apple (Toshiba made the same decision). 

    If you have some business plan or strategy where Sony could make $200 per unit on the PS5 and still sell enough to make money selling $70 copies of the Spider-Man game go ahead and share it. My guess is that you don't, and you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants. You are probably ROOTING for the console makers to fail so Apple could take their place. Just as pretty much everyone on this site was rooting for Nintento to fail 5 years ago so Apple could buy them and make Mario, Link, Pokemon etc. exclusives on Apple TV (so that people would actually start buying them), iPads and iPhones.
    You say that the console business is different from the mobile business.

    So.. Why do we have to listen to Microsoft then??? Microsoft clearly tried to launch smartphones with their own Window OS, which failed. Their fault. Not Apple´s fault. 

    Microsoft is giving a lot of BS this time because Microsoft is jealous that AAPL and GOOGL are so successful with their smartphones and smoothly running OS, which Microsoft wished to have. 


    Not only did MS wait too long, missing the boat on mobile, they failed even with Apples example in front of them, just like with Zune. 

    And so they decided to BUY NOKIA. And they KILLED NOKIA. It basically died. So sad. 

    And that’s what they are doing now. They try, they struggle, so they buy. And we know what happens next. 

    Xbox is their saving Grace. But they pump a ton of money into Xbox. And the 70 BILLION acquisition is a very desperate move. There are a lot of nervous folks at Microsoft over that one. It HAS TO succeed. If not, there will be big trouble. 

    Microsoft still has no real mobile platform no matter how much they try. 

    And that’s why you hear the thick, bitter jealousy wafting out from Redmond now. 
    narwhalwatto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 43
    jimh2jimh2 Posts: 590member
    Let’s be clear about one thing…anyone selling a product at a loss is making that decision on their own. No one forces companies to take losses. Profit and Loss have nothing to do with App Store operations. Anyone should be able to see through this phony baloney nonsense. 
    Beatsfreeassociate2viclauyycwatto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 43
    You say that the console business is different from the mobile business.

    So.. Why do we have to listen to Microsoft then??? Microsoft clearly tried to launch smartphones with their own Window OS, which failed. Their fault. Not Apple´s fault. 

    Microsoft is giving a lot of BS this time because Microsoft is jealous that AAPL and GOOGL are so successful with their smartphones and smoothly running OS, which Microsoft wished to have. 


    You don't have to listen to Microsoft. Why did Apple Insider choose to post this article? Ask the editors. Microsoft has long written off not having a mobile ecosystem. They doubled down on cloud, surpassed Google in market valuation and haven't looked back. They are #2 to Apple and the gap between them and #3 and #4 - Google and Amazon - are huge. Microsoft only joined the Epic Games lawsuit because Epic asked them too. Otherwise, they have little interest in or anything to do with Apple. Google - thanks to search, ads, cloud, Chrome and ChromeOS - is a bigger threat to Microsoft than Apple is, which is why Google pulled their Android Office 365 apps off ChromeOS but hasn't done the same for the iPadOS apps. And which is why Microsoft used Chromium to build a competing browser to Chrome - Edge - and not whatever Safari uses to build a competing one to Safari. Microsoft hasn't tried to compete with Apple TV+, Apple Music or anything really that Apple does, but they did turn Office into a Google Suite competitor, positioned OneDrive as a Google Drive competitor, has released the Surface SE to compete with Chromebooks in education, you name it. 

    Microsoft launched their missive to get regulators to approve their purchase of Activision Blizzard. Regulators are concerned that the studios that Microsoft has bought, XBox and their huge presence in PC gaming and xCloud could allow them to dominate the market. This is Microsoft getting out ahead of the regulators by addressing their most logical line of excuses to prevent the merger in advance. Had Nvidia done the same, they might actually own ARM Holdings by now. If you wait until the regulators voice their objections and THEN try to answer them you have already lost because the regulators have already made up their minds at that point. In the time that it would take the regulators to come up with a new line of attack - if they even want to - Microsoft will have likely closed the deal. 

    Microsoft only mentioned that consoles have a different business model than everything else in order to justify not opening it up at this time. Still has nothing to do with Apple because unless the Apple TV explodes in market share, like increases it 20 fold, Apple is not in the console market. They are in the general computing market selling devices - macOS, iPadOS, iOS - that have the ability to play games. Like the iPod Touch ... primarily a music player but its ability to play games is a byproduct. 
    williamlondonBeatsfreeassociate2viclauyyc
  • Reply 15 of 43
    The hypocrisy is astounding.

    Also the lot of you don't get to define what a console is based on your personal preference for where the iPhone should lay. 
    It has always been a closed platform of approved apps only, just because you can perform duties which resemble that of a general purpose computer doesn't change that fact.
    edited February 2022 Beatswatto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 43
    The hypocrisy is astounding.

    Also the lot of you don't get to define what a console is based on your personal preference for where the iPhone should lay. 
    It has always been a closed platform of approved apps only, just because you can perform duties which resemble that of a general purpose computer doesn't change that fact.
    Actually it’s an open platform. Developers can put their apps on the App Store. They just can’t be malware or other such trash. Vetting is a good thing. Doesn’t mean “closed.” Means “safe, secure, good.”

    an iPhone is far more specialized and personal than s console, which does most of what an iPhone does, only the iPhone is far more personal snd private, meaning it should have far greater safeguards. 

    You don’t get to define where the iPhone lies based on your preferences. The iPhone is a 3 tiered product as it has been since it’s inception: 1. A phone. 2. An internet communicator. 3. A multimedia entertainment device. 

    The Xbox is all of that - Skype etc. makes it a phone. Web browsing makes it an internet communicator. And the multimedia music snd video apps are everywhere. 

    The difference is that you keep all of your personal finance, contacts, etc. in your iPhone. 

    If Xbox deserves to have its App Store more refined, then the iPhone doubly so. 

    Apple has the Mac App Store but you can still download apps from anywhere. But the mobile ecosystem by nature requires greater safeguards. It is far more important here than on a PlayStation or Nintendo or Xbox. 

    In other words, Microsoft is copying Apple by leaving its Windows App Store like apples Mac App Store and more carefully guarding Xbox like Apple does iPhone. 

    Microsoft is the hypocrite here, doing the same thing, but pointing fingers at the one who showed them how. 

    Shameful. 

    Microsoft thinks that by joining a small but vocal chorus of nonsense, that they won’t come for them next. But they will. That’s the thing about wild pack animals. After ganging up on their prey, They turn and attack each other. They always do.
    edited February 2022 Beatsviclauyycwatto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 43
    So don’t sell at a loss, and produce enough of them? (Instead of artificial shortages that are obvious ploys to boost desirability.)

    The “robust and viable ecosystem for game developers" argument is such horseshit if you look at where indie developers are actually making money (or rather not making money…) Does anyone buy the idea that MS is soooooo into gaming that it loses billions of $$ on a passion project? (Or that that would be legal, given it’s duty to shareholders.) 

    I’d argue that MS and others like it intentionally create the economic circumstances that make working for AAA studios the only sad “viable” option for most developers. The only people that are benefiting here are investors.  
    If consoles weren't sold at a loss, they would cost 50% more and far fewer people would buy them. You folks don't understand: not very many people buy consoles. About 50 million XBox One consoles were sold over 7 years. That is probably about the number of Google Pixel phones that sold in that timeframe. And no, these shortages aren't artificial. First off, these shortages did not exist with the PS4, XBox One, PS3, XBox 360 etc. These shortages are due to TSMC being the only foundry capable of making an integrated SOC for these devices that don't overheat. This is the same TSMC that also can't fill all of Apple's orders, forcing Apple to prioritize iPhones over iPads, remember?
    AMD's Zen 4 chips were supposed to launch in November 2021. At this rate AMD will consider themselves lucky if they launch in October 2022, and they have even had to shift some orders to Samsung, just as Intel - who will use TSMC's fabs for some orders in 2023 - considered doing and Nvidia did last year for Ampere GPUs.

    The console business model is totally different from the mobile device one. Samsung alone sells more smartphones in 1 year than the entire console industry - Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and the minor players - sells in an entire generation. Yes, the Nintendo Switch sells at a profit. But do you know why? The Nintendo Switch is actually the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet from 2015 running the Nintendo 3DS operating system (based on FreeBSD) along with some Android components and Nvidia software. The Nvidia Shield K1 tablet was $200 when it originally launched! 

    I can see you bashing Microsoft - decades of hate I guess - but you realize that by doing this you are also trashing Sony, whose console costs the same, whose shortages are even worse, and who has nothing to do with these app store battles with Epic Games and regulators. The PlayStation is their last big money hardware product left. The iPod and iPhone killed off the Walkman, boom boxes and the other consumer audio products that were massive for them in the 80s and 90s. Streaming - and streaming boxes - killed off their VHS, DVD and Blu-ray line. They so badly botched their attempts to make Android devices that they don't even bother to distribute more than a few units outside Japan (iPhone 70% market share) anymore. Their TV line is being battered by South Korean and Chinese competition. They are also only "one among many" when it comes to selling headphones (where they get crushed by AirPods) and speakers (getting devalued by smart products from Amazon, Sonos, Google and Apple). And they ditched their PC line ages ago because they could no longer compete with HP, Dell, Lenovo and Apple (Toshiba made the same decision). 

    If you have some business plan or strategy where Sony could make $200 per unit on the PS5 and still sell enough to make money selling $70 copies of the Spider-Man game go ahead and share it. My guess is that you don't, and you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants. You are probably ROOTING for the console makers to fail so Apple could take their place. Just as pretty much everyone on this site was rooting for Nintento to fail 5 years ago so Apple could buy them and make Mario, Link, Pokemon etc. exclusives on Apple TV (so that people would actually start buying them), iPads and iPhones.
    You say that the console business is different from the mobile business.

    So.. Why do we have to listen to Microsoft then??? Microsoft clearly tried to launch smartphones with their own Window OS, which failed. Their fault. Not Apple´s fault. 

    Microsoft is giving a lot of BS this time because Microsoft is jealous that AAPL and GOOGL are so successful with their smartphones and smoothly running OS, which Microsoft wished to have. 


    Not only did MS wait too long, missing the boat on mobile, they failed even with Apples example in front of them, just like with Zune. 

    And so they decided to BUY NOKIA. And they KILLED NOKIA. It basically died. So sad. 

    And that’s what they are doing now. They try, they struggle, so they buy. And we know what happens next. 

    Xbox is their saving Grace. But they pump a ton of money into Xbox. And the 70 BILLION acquisition is a very desperate move. There are a lot of nervous folks at Microsoft over that one. It HAS TO succeed. If not, there will be big trouble. 

    Microsoft still has no real mobile platform no matter how much they try. 

    And that’s why you hear the thick, bitter jealousy wafting out from Redmond now. 
    Microsoft is the #2 company on the planet in valuation (that isn't a state-owned petroleum concern), is raking in record profits and they are desperate? Nervous? Struggling? Please, read a tech magazine for once. You have no idea what you are talking about. 
    williamlondoncanukstorm
  • Reply 18 of 43
    Perhaps Apple should sell its iOS products at a loss so it can claim they are specialty computer items? This is what it will come down to in the legislation. Why can the game stores on the Xbox, Playstation and Switch consoles be limited to the company that makes them? Because they are sold at a loss. Why must the iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch and Mac app stores be open? Because Apple sells them at a massive profit. You the customer own them and you the customer have the right to do whatever you want to with them.
  • Reply 19 of 43
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,389member
    So don’t sell at a loss, and produce enough of them? (Instead of artificial shortages that are obvious ploys to boost desirability.)

    The “robust and viable ecosystem for game developers" argument is such horseshit if you look at where indie developers are actually making money (or rather not making money…) Does anyone buy the idea that MS is soooooo into gaming that it loses billions of $$ on a passion project? (Or that that would be legal, given it’s duty to shareholders.) 

    I’d argue that MS and others like it intentionally create the economic circumstances that make working for AAA studios the only sad “viable” option for most developers. The only people that are benefiting here are investors.  
    If consoles weren't sold at a loss, they would cost 50% more and far fewer people would buy them. You folks don't understand: not very many people buy consoles. About 50 million XBox One consoles were sold over 7 years. That is probably about the number of Google Pixel phones that sold in that timeframe. And no, these shortages aren't artificial. First off, these shortages did not exist with the PS4, XBox One, PS3, XBox 360 etc. These shortages are due to TSMC being the only foundry capable of making an integrated SOC for these devices that don't overheat. This is the same TSMC that also can't fill all of Apple's orders, forcing Apple to prioritize iPhones over iPads, remember?
    AMD's Zen 4 chips were supposed to launch in November 2021. At this rate AMD will consider themselves lucky if they launch in October 2022, and they have even had to shift some orders to Samsung, just as Intel - who will use TSMC's fabs for some orders in 2023 - considered doing and Nvidia did last year for Ampere GPUs.

    The console business model is totally different from the mobile device one. Samsung alone sells more smartphones in 1 year than the entire console industry - Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and the minor players - sells in an entire generation. Yes, the Nintendo Switch sells at a profit. But do you know why? The Nintendo Switch is actually the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet from 2015 running the Nintendo 3DS operating system (based on FreeBSD) along with some Android components and Nvidia software. The Nvidia Shield K1 tablet was $200 when it originally launched! 

    I can see you bashing Microsoft - decades of hate I guess - but you realize that by doing this you are also trashing Sony, whose console costs the same, whose shortages are even worse, and who has nothing to do with these app store battles with Epic Games and regulators. The PlayStation is their last big money hardware product left. The iPod and iPhone killed off the Walkman, boom boxes and the other consumer audio products that were massive for them in the 80s and 90s. Streaming - and streaming boxes - killed off their VHS, DVD and Blu-ray line. They so badly botched their attempts to make Android devices that they don't even bother to distribute more than a few units outside Japan (iPhone 70% market share) anymore. Their TV line is being battered by South Korean and Chinese competition. They are also only "one among many" when it comes to selling headphones (where they get crushed by AirPods) and speakers (getting devalued by smart products from Amazon, Sonos, Google and Apple). And they ditched their PC line ages ago because they could no longer compete with HP, Dell, Lenovo and Apple (Toshiba made the same decision). 

    If you have some business plan or strategy where Sony could make $200 per unit on the PS5 and still sell enough to make money selling $70 copies of the Spider-Man game go ahead and share it. My guess is that you don't, and you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants. You are probably ROOTING for the console makers to fail so Apple could take their place. Just as pretty much everyone on this site was rooting for Nintento to fail 5 years ago so Apple could buy them and make Mario, Link, Pokemon etc. exclusives on Apple TV (so that people would actually start buying them), iPads and iPhones.
    You say that the console business is different from the mobile business.

    So.. Why do we have to listen to Microsoft then??? Microsoft clearly tried to launch smartphones with their own Window OS, which failed. Their fault. Not Apple´s fault. 

    Microsoft is giving a lot of BS this time because Microsoft is jealous that AAPL and GOOGL are so successful with their smartphones and smoothly running OS, which Microsoft wished to have. 


    If MS is jealous of Apple and Google smartphone business, then I suppose Apple and Google are jealous of MS successful cloud business and their enterprise / business ecosystem, right?
    canukstorm
  • Reply 20 of 43
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,389member
    So don’t sell at a loss, and produce enough of them? (Instead of artificial shortages that are obvious ploys to boost desirability.)

    The “robust and viable ecosystem for game developers" argument is such horseshit if you look at where indie developers are actually making money (or rather not making money…) Does anyone buy the idea that MS is soooooo into gaming that it loses billions of $$ on a passion project? (Or that that would be legal, given it’s duty to shareholders.) 

    I’d argue that MS and others like it intentionally create the economic circumstances that make working for AAA studios the only sad “viable” option for most developers. The only people that are benefiting here are investors.  
    If consoles weren't sold at a loss, they would cost 50% more and far fewer people would buy them. You folks don't understand: not very many people buy consoles. About 50 million XBox One consoles were sold over 7 years. That is probably about the number of Google Pixel phones that sold in that timeframe. And no, these shortages aren't artificial. First off, these shortages did not exist with the PS4, XBox One, PS3, XBox 360 etc. These shortages are due to TSMC being the only foundry capable of making an integrated SOC for these devices that don't overheat. This is the same TSMC that also can't fill all of Apple's orders, forcing Apple to prioritize iPhones over iPads, remember?
    AMD's Zen 4 chips were supposed to launch in November 2021. At this rate AMD will consider themselves lucky if they launch in October 2022, and they have even had to shift some orders to Samsung, just as Intel - who will use TSMC's fabs for some orders in 2023 - considered doing and Nvidia did last year for Ampere GPUs.

    The console business model is totally different from the mobile device one. Samsung alone sells more smartphones in 1 year than the entire console industry - Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and the minor players - sells in an entire generation. Yes, the Nintendo Switch sells at a profit. But do you know why? The Nintendo Switch is actually the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet from 2015 running the Nintendo 3DS operating system (based on FreeBSD) along with some Android components and Nvidia software. The Nvidia Shield K1 tablet was $200 when it originally launched! 

    I can see you bashing Microsoft - decades of hate I guess - but you realize that by doing this you are also trashing Sony, whose console costs the same, whose shortages are even worse, and who has nothing to do with these app store battles with Epic Games and regulators. The PlayStation is their last big money hardware product left. The iPod and iPhone killed off the Walkman, boom boxes and the other consumer audio products that were massive for them in the 80s and 90s. Streaming - and streaming boxes - killed off their VHS, DVD and Blu-ray line. They so badly botched their attempts to make Android devices that they don't even bother to distribute more than a few units outside Japan (iPhone 70% market share) anymore. Their TV line is being battered by South Korean and Chinese competition. They are also only "one among many" when it comes to selling headphones (where they get crushed by AirPods) and speakers (getting devalued by smart products from Amazon, Sonos, Google and Apple). And they ditched their PC line ages ago because they could no longer compete with HP, Dell, Lenovo and Apple (Toshiba made the same decision). 

    If you have some business plan or strategy where Sony could make $200 per unit on the PS5 and still sell enough to make money selling $70 copies of the Spider-Man game go ahead and share it. My guess is that you don't, and you don't care what happens to Sony or the console market so long as Apple gets to keep doing whatever Apple wants. You are probably ROOTING for the console makers to fail so Apple could take their place. Just as pretty much everyone on this site was rooting for Nintento to fail 5 years ago so Apple could buy them and make Mario, Link, Pokemon etc. exclusives on Apple TV (so that people would actually start buying them), iPads and iPhones.
    You say that the console business is different from the mobile business.

    So.. Why do we have to listen to Microsoft then??? Microsoft clearly tried to launch smartphones with their own Window OS, which failed. Their fault. Not Apple´s fault. 

    Microsoft is giving a lot of BS this time because Microsoft is jealous that AAPL and GOOGL are so successful with their smartphones and smoothly running OS, which Microsoft wished to have. 


    Not only did MS wait too long, missing the boat on mobile, they failed even with Apples example in front of them, just like with Zune. 

    And so they decided to BUY NOKIA. And they KILLED NOKIA. It basically died. So sad. 

    And that’s what they are doing now. They try, they struggle, so they buy. And we know what happens next. 
    If we considered what happened LinkedIn, Mojang and Zenimax, I suppose the acquisition of Activision / Blizzard will be very successful.
    Xbox is their saving Grace. But they pump a ton of money into Xbox. And the 70 BILLION acquisition is a very desperate move. There are a lot of nervous folks at Microsoft over that one. It HAS TO succeed. If not, there will be big trouble. 


    I don't see it as a desperate move.  Instead it's shows a strong commitment to gaming and to expand GamePass library.  I don't see how is that a bad thing.
    Microsoft still has no real mobile platform no matter how much they try. 

    And that’s why you hear the thick, bitter jealousy wafting out from Redmond now. 
    I find impressive how successful MS is without a mobile platform.  I don't see why they should have to be jealous of Apple.  If that's the case, I suppose Apple is jealous of MS business / enterprise business, right?
    Beatsmuthuk_vanalingamcanukstorm
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