Apple shareholder group urges a no vote on CEO Tim Cook's $99M pay package

124»

Comments

  • Reply 61 of 67
    Xed said:
    All things Apple seem to have become incredibly more complex, not the least is dealing with the now annual macOS releases since 2011.
    The loss of 32 bit app support (Windows does) has been a particular concern (cost/workflow/training) for this life time customer...

    Is the mac still 'a computer for the rest of us…?'
    You're upset that Apple got rid of 32-bit processors and eventually stopped supporting 32-bit architecture? Are you also upset that they did the same for 16-bit and moved to a Unix-like OS?
    To be fair other than expanded memory access and possibly speed I don't understand further benefits of 64 bit, but when apps I license & use no longer work, it matters...

    I'd like to have the option to upgrade on merit or need. Kind of like onboard RAM and storage that means throwing out the baby with the bath water. Is that why $99M is available to a single human...?

    When I search under about this mac I get over 400 hits on 32 bit apps, and more major considerations include losing things like an Adobe Master Collection, which isn't even available for upgrade with a persistent license option, effectively forcing a choice of subscription or abandonment.  

    Even for Acrobat Pro (still available persistent) Adobe wants $450 USD (no upgrade beyond 2 years) while my current version keeps happily doing what is needed with no complaints. At what point are customers being held to ransom...? It certainly feels that way at times, although I assume it serves the developers well, including $99M compensation for a single human... Is that better...?

    I still have a G4 powerbook that runs (for now) including 'Classic' and an entire life's work on the mac... iWeb is another app that I really like, and think is some of the best 'no manual required' intuitive software to ever come from the Steve Jobs era...  32 bit, of course...
    The solution is staring you right in the face — keep living in the past and keep using old software and an old Mac until you die. Let the rest of us move on with technology. Cook's compensation is irrelevant to any of your concerns.
    Well with respect I might suggest we must agree to disagree... I ask if the whole point of orphaning perfectly fuctional software, in cases easier and better designed than 'upgrades' is to feather pockets of vested interests, especially once a gold rush of transition has occurred...

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish
    The point is to improve on technology. The premise that it's not an improvement false, despite the fact that you're perfectly happy to cling to old tech. I guarantee that you cannot build a functional modern, responsive website in iWeb. Adobe Creative Suite was a decade ago! Do you have any idea how outdated most of that software is? Just because you find functionality in ancient software doesn't mean the rest of the world should be held back in the dark ages with you. Nobody is stopping you from simply using an old Mac to run old Mac software. Do it. Smarter people have already found modern equivalent tools which are far cheaper, faster, and better than decade-old Creative Suite software and iWeb.
    Again with respect please define improve...

    I spent many hours looking at alternatives for web authoring... I would be happy to embrace any options that might be "modern equivalent tools which are far cheaper, faster, and better than decade-old Creative Suite software and iWeb"...

    Please keep in mind that data harvesting or otherwise questionable 'free' options suggest evaluation in a full disclosure context...
    Improve: faster / better / more powerful / more efficient / etc (REALLY?)

    Alternatives to Adobe CS: Affinity suite, Procreate, etc as is well documented just about everywhere including these forums.

    iWeb:  WordPress prebuilt themes with various third party WYSIWYG page builders, and other popular online solutions such as Wix, Squarespace, etc have all undercut the software side of things, and have for years. Adobe probably discontinued Muse, which would've been the modern equivalent of an iWeb type tool years ago, for this reason. Also largely why I got out of this area of work as a general rule as these solutions also undercut bespoke web designer/coders such as myself. I use Panic software's Nova personally, but that's not a WYSIWYG/drag and drop builder, it's for coders. There are various native local apps out there for what you want but no idea if any of them are good or not as I've never used them.

    Needs and the tools to address them change with time. Maybe yours don't, but you're in the extreme minority here.

    Dunno what you're talking about with regard to data harvesting, but as I have suggested in the past, you are probably better served going off grid and living in a Faraday cage with your Snow Leopard Mac and 32 bit apps and zero iCloud and live the life you want to live. 
    Well before iWeb there was PageMill which was a real help after coding by hand and using PS2 to try and optimize images, so I am open to upgrades. GoLive had a content editor that might have been a compromise solution however once venturing into CSS it became a burden and required lots of manual references. And then Adobe killed it.  I looked at Wordpress, and Wix, and Sandvox, and on it goes, with thanks for the suggestions... Dreamweaver too was on the list.  I guess as you say the definition of good comes in to play, and for a simple elegant image optimized html website that can be content edited and updated using drag and drop to a private server ftp partition in a few minutes I have not yet found an alternative that works as well, even with the features that have been lost over time... All Apple had to do was support 32 bit apps - I don't know how that would compromise macOS, and I might guess it has something to do with metal, or driving software upgrades for developers to attract them to the platform, yet a few I've asked indicated they were worn out...  Nuff said...
    It's not that you haven't found an alternative that works well — you have — the platforms listed above are far more capable than iWeb ever was. You're just unwilling to learn something different.

    There are myriad reasons why supporting legacy software is problematic in the long term. In the short term, Apple has done a great job of doing just that though — 32bit apps were deprecated for years before macOS no longer supported them, and it's been a few years since that happened. Rosetta and Rosetta 2. Fat binaries. Etc. Do you still hear of people complaining about not being able to run their PowerPC software? Their 68K software? It's time to move on, OR, like I said, stick with your old hardware/software that runs the crusty old software that you like. Nobody is stopping you.
    edited February 2022
  • Reply 62 of 67
    AppleZulu said:
    Xed said:
    All things Apple seem to have become incredibly more complex, not the least is dealing with the now annual macOS releases since 2011.
    The loss of 32 bit app support (Windows does) has been a particular concern (cost/workflow/training) for this life time customer...

    Is the mac still 'a computer for the rest of us…?'
    You're upset that Apple got rid of 32-bit processors and eventually stopped supporting 32-bit architecture? Are you also upset that they did the same for 16-bit and moved to a Unix-like OS?
    To be fair other than expanded memory access and possibly speed I don't understand further benefits of 64 bit, but when apps I license & use no longer work, it matters...

    I'd like to have the option to upgrade on merit or need. Kind of like onboard RAM and storage that means throwing out the baby with the bath water. Is that why $99M is available to a single human...?

    When I search under about this mac I get over 400 hits on 32 bit apps, and more major considerations include losing things like an Adobe Master Collection, which isn't even available for upgrade with a persistent license option, effectively forcing a choice of subscription or abandonment.  

    Even for Acrobat Pro (still available persistent) Adobe wants $450 USD (no upgrade beyond 2 years) while my current version keeps happily doing what is needed with no complaints. At what point are customers being held to ransom...? It certainly feels that way at times, although I assume it serves the developers well, including $99M compensation for a single human... Is that better...?

    I still have a G4 powerbook that runs (for now) including 'Classic' and an entire life's work on the mac... iWeb is another app that I really like, and think is some of the best 'no manual required' intuitive software to ever come from the Steve Jobs era...  32 bit, of course...
    The solution is staring you right in the face — keep living in the past and keep using old software and an old Mac until you die. Let the rest of us move on with technology. Cook's compensation is irrelevant to any of your concerns.
    Well with respect I might suggest we must agree to disagree... I ask if the whole point of orphaning perfectly fuctional software, in cases easier and better designed than 'upgrades' is to feather pockets of vested interests, especially once a gold rush of transition has occurred...

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish
    The point is to improve on technology. The premise that it's not an improvement false, despite the fact that you're perfectly happy to cling to old tech. I guarantee that you cannot build a functional modern, responsive website in iWeb. Adobe Creative Suite was a decade ago! Do you have any idea how outdated most of that software is? Just because you find functionality in ancient software doesn't mean the rest of the world should be held back in the dark ages with you. Nobody is stopping you from simply using an old Mac to run old Mac software. Do it. Smarter people have already found modern equivalent tools which are far cheaper, faster, and better than decade-old Creative Suite software and iWeb.
    Again with respect please define improve...

    I spent many hours looking at alternatives for web authoring... I would be happy to embrace any options that might be "modern equivalent tools which are far cheaper, faster, and better than decade-old Creative Suite software and iWeb"...

    Please keep in mind that data harvesting or otherwise questionable 'free' options suggest evaluation in a full disclosure context...
    Improve: faster / better / more powerful / more efficient / etc (REALLY?)

    Alternatives to Adobe CS: Affinity suite, Procreate, etc as is well documented just about everywhere including these forums.

    iWeb:  WordPress prebuilt themes with various third party WYSIWYG page builders, and other popular online solutions such as Wix, Squarespace, etc have all undercut the software side of things, and have for years. Adobe probably discontinued Muse, which would've been the modern equivalent of an iWeb type tool years ago, for this reason. Also largely why I got out of this area of work as a general rule as these solutions also undercut bespoke web designer/coders such as myself. I use Panic software's Nova personally, but that's not a WYSIWYG/drag and drop builder, it's for coders. There are various native local apps out there for what you want but no idea if any of them are good or not as I've never used them.

    Needs and the tools to address them change with time. Maybe yours don't, but you're in the extreme minority here.

    Dunno what you're talking about with regard to data harvesting, but as I have suggested in the past, you are probably better served going off grid and living in a Faraday cage with your Snow Leopard Mac and 32 bit apps and zero iCloud and live the life you want to live. 
    Well before iWeb there was PageMill which was a real help after coding by hand and using PS2 to try and optimize images, so I am open to upgrades. GoLive had a content editor that might have been a compromise solution however once venturing into CSS it became a burden and required lots of manual references. And then Adobe killed it.  I looked at Wordpress, and Wix, and Sandvox, and on it goes, with thanks for the suggestions... Dreamweaver too was on the list.  I guess as you say the definition of good comes in to play, and for a simple elegant image optimized html website that can be content edited and updated using drag and drop to a private server ftp partition in a few minutes I have not yet found an alternative that works as well, even with the features that have been lost over time... All Apple had to do was support 32 bit apps - I don't know how that would compromise macOS, and I might guess it has something to do with metal, or driving software upgrades for developers to attract them to the platform, yet a few I've asked indicated they were worn out...  Nuff said...
    I've kept some legacy computer hardware to operate legacy peripheral hardware that I still like to use. There is no way I would connect that stuff to the current internet, though. Nope, nope, nope. I don't expect that legacy hardware to serve day-to-day purposes, and I don't get angry that new computer hardware doesn't support every legacy device and program I might have.

    Apple's OS works exceptionally well, specifically because they limit variables for what it must support. Simply stopping innovation of new, better versions of computing hardware and software isn't an option. As innovation creates new versions and models, there is, at some point, diminishing returns in supporting a trailing edge of legacy versions and models. An OS that adds 64-bit operation, while continuing in perpetuity to support 32 (why not 16?) bit programs just becomes bloatware. The shift to Apple's own in-house silicon likely also drove that change. As always, your lament that they don't continue to fully support your old gear is countered by the equally predictable and presbyopic complaints each year that the annual announcements of new models and operating systems aren't earth-shattering enough. 
    ... perhaps an alternative might be updating iWeb and other Apple apps, although that or legacy 32 bit support might cut in to the $99M under consideration... 
    As I already stated, the market for software like iWeb is pretty much miniscule. Nearly every single person has moved to CMS like WordPress and online services like Wix/Squarespace, misc other hosts' proprietary platforms. Go look in the App Store though, there are some standalone apps, but I bet the user base for those has been dropping off rapidly in most cases. There's no reason Apple would bother. 

    Nor are they going to keep 32bit garbage in the OS because some dinosaurs refuse to move on. 
  • Reply 63 of 67
    AppleZulu said:
    Xed said:
    All things Apple seem to have become incredibly more complex, not the least is dealing with the now annual macOS releases since 2011.
    The loss of 32 bit app support (Windows does) has been a particular concern (cost/workflow/training) for this life time customer...

    Is the mac still 'a computer for the rest of us…?'
    You're upset that Apple got rid of 32-bit processors and eventually stopped supporting 32-bit architecture? Are you also upset that they did the same for 16-bit and moved to a Unix-like OS?
    To be fair other than expanded memory access and possibly speed I don't understand further benefits of 64 bit, but when apps I license & use no longer work, it matters...

    I'd like to have the option to upgrade on merit or need. Kind of like onboard RAM and storage that means throwing out the baby with the bath water. Is that why $99M is available to a single human...?

    When I search under about this mac I get over 400 hits on 32 bit apps, and more major considerations include losing things like an Adobe Master Collection, which isn't even available for upgrade with a persistent license option, effectively forcing a choice of subscription or abandonment.  

    Even for Acrobat Pro (still available persistent) Adobe wants $450 USD (no upgrade beyond 2 years) while my current version keeps happily doing what is needed with no complaints. At what point are customers being held to ransom...? It certainly feels that way at times, although I assume it serves the developers well, including $99M compensation for a single human... Is that better...?

    I still have a G4 powerbook that runs (for now) including 'Classic' and an entire life's work on the mac... iWeb is another app that I really like, and think is some of the best 'no manual required' intuitive software to ever come from the Steve Jobs era...  32 bit, of course...
    The solution is staring you right in the face — keep living in the past and keep using old software and an old Mac until you die. Let the rest of us move on with technology. Cook's compensation is irrelevant to any of your concerns.
    Well with respect I might suggest we must agree to disagree... I ask if the whole point of orphaning perfectly fuctional software, in cases easier and better designed than 'upgrades' is to feather pockets of vested interests, especially once a gold rush of transition has occurred...

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish
    The point is to improve on technology. The premise that it's not an improvement false, despite the fact that you're perfectly happy to cling to old tech. I guarantee that you cannot build a functional modern, responsive website in iWeb. Adobe Creative Suite was a decade ago! Do you have any idea how outdated most of that software is? Just because you find functionality in ancient software doesn't mean the rest of the world should be held back in the dark ages with you. Nobody is stopping you from simply using an old Mac to run old Mac software. Do it. Smarter people have already found modern equivalent tools which are far cheaper, faster, and better than decade-old Creative Suite software and iWeb.
    Again with respect please define improve...

    I spent many hours looking at alternatives for web authoring... I would be happy to embrace any options that might be "modern equivalent tools which are far cheaper, faster, and better than decade-old Creative Suite software and iWeb"...

    Please keep in mind that data harvesting or otherwise questionable 'free' options suggest evaluation in a full disclosure context...
    Improve: faster / better / more powerful / more efficient / etc (REALLY?)

    Alternatives to Adobe CS: Affinity suite, Procreate, etc as is well documented just about everywhere including these forums.

    iWeb:  WordPress prebuilt themes with various third party WYSIWYG page builders, and other popular online solutions such as Wix, Squarespace, etc have all undercut the software side of things, and have for years. Adobe probably discontinued Muse, which would've been the modern equivalent of an iWeb type tool years ago, for this reason. Also largely why I got out of this area of work as a general rule as these solutions also undercut bespoke web designer/coders such as myself. I use Panic software's Nova personally, but that's not a WYSIWYG/drag and drop builder, it's for coders. There are various native local apps out there for what you want but no idea if any of them are good or not as I've never used them.

    Needs and the tools to address them change with time. Maybe yours don't, but you're in the extreme minority here.

    Dunno what you're talking about with regard to data harvesting, but as I have suggested in the past, you are probably better served going off grid and living in a Faraday cage with your Snow Leopard Mac and 32 bit apps and zero iCloud and live the life you want to live. 
    Well before iWeb there was PageMill which was a real help after coding by hand and using PS2 to try and optimize images, so I am open to upgrades. GoLive had a content editor that might have been a compromise solution however once venturing into CSS it became a burden and required lots of manual references. And then Adobe killed it.  I looked at Wordpress, and Wix, and Sandvox, and on it goes, with thanks for the suggestions... Dreamweaver too was on the list.  I guess as you say the definition of good comes in to play, and for a simple elegant image optimized html website that can be content edited and updated using drag and drop to a private server ftp partition in a few minutes I have not yet found an alternative that works as well, even with the features that have been lost over time... All Apple had to do was support 32 bit apps - I don't know how that would compromise macOS, and I might guess it has something to do with metal, or driving software upgrades for developers to attract them to the platform, yet a few I've asked indicated they were worn out...  Nuff said...
    I've kept some legacy computer hardware to operate legacy peripheral hardware that I still like to use. There is no way I would connect that stuff to the current internet, though. Nope, nope, nope. I don't expect that legacy hardware to serve day-to-day purposes, and I don't get angry that new computer hardware doesn't support every legacy device and program I might have.

    Apple's OS works exceptionally well, specifically because they limit variables for what it must support. Simply stopping innovation of new, better versions of computing hardware and software isn't an option. As innovation creates new versions and models, there is, at some point, diminishing returns in supporting a trailing edge of legacy versions and models. An OS that adds 64-bit operation, while continuing in perpetuity to support 32 (why not 16?) bit programs just becomes bloatware. The shift to Apple's own in-house silicon likely also drove that change. As always, your lament that they don't continue to fully support your old gear is countered by the equally predictable and presbyopic complaints each year that the annual announcements of new models and operating systems aren't earth-shattering enough. 
    ... perhaps an alternative might be updating iWeb and other Apple apps, although that or legacy 32 bit support might cut in to the $99M under consideration... 
    Even though it's a bonafide classic, Ford does not stock spare parts for a '65 Mustang, and they definitely haven't provided owners of that car with "updates," even though using unleaded fuel without aftermarket additives will burn out the valves. That car is great. It's an aesthetic classic. Compared to modern versions, however, it handles poorly, is seriously underpowered, and is an unmitigated death trap in an accident. It's great a collector might want to keep driving his '65 Mustang, but that doesn't mean Ford has some sort of responsibility to provide ongoing support decades after the last one rolled off the assembly line.
    Xedfastasleep
  • Reply 64 of 67
    Opinions seem to vary on the merits of a forced march to 64 bit:  
    www.howtogeek.com/194119/why-are-most-programs-still-32-bit-on-a-64-bit-version-of-windows/
    docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/winprog64/running-32-bit-applications

    I understand from a lost Apple reference that Metal was part of the justification, yet I have a 12 year old mac with GPU & NVMe upgrades arguably running as fast or faster than the base 2019 pro including Metal. It is also faster than the top 2013 mac pro that was marketed as an upgrade and is still supported.

    Is it a question of technology or profit?  github.com/dosdude1/macos-catalina-patcher

    Is another casualty of all this 'progress' the obsolescence of perfectly good (in my case high end output) peripherals due mainly to drivers vs physical wear. This can measure in the thousands of dollars in replacement costs as well. One can of course blame the 'lazy' suppliers, however they did not abandon what already worked.  Apple claims to be concerned about sustainability yet since 2011 do the accelerated macOS revisions fly in the face of that ? For profit ? Customer data harvesting for AI perhaps ?  

    In terms of sustainability would it be reasonable to expect support to be extended rather than reduced to make better use of hardware that can be repaired and or cradle to grave life cycle extended beyond the current 5 year 'policy'...?

    One caveat might be energy efficiency which seems greatly improved with ARM, and yet we have server 'farm' expansion in suit and embodied energies in existing hardware... Cradle to grave footprint including embodied, operating and human energies might not be as clear cut as a result...

    And all this leading back to profitability, and what seems the question of merit in an arguably abstract level of compensation beyond need or even benefit for any individual, along with perhaps larger concerns cited elsewhere: appleinsider.com/articles/22/02/27/largest-sovereign-wealth-fund-plans-to-vote-against-tim-cooks-99m-pay

    Sigh...
    edited February 2022
  • Reply 65 of 67
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,218member
    Apple claims to be concerned about sustainability yet since 2011 do the accelerated macOS revisions fly in the face of that ? For profit ? Customer data harvesting for AI perhaps ?  

    In terms of sustainability would it be reasonable to expect support to be extended rather than reduced to make better use of hardware that can be repaired and or cradle to grave life cycle extended beyond the current 5 year 'policy'...?
    Your posts are a bizarre mix of barely-veiled "Steve would've never let this happen" and unchecked paranoia.

    macOS generally supports 7-8 year old hardware which is more than adequate. Nobody is forcing you to throw anything away after 5 years, so don't pretend like there's a "policy".

    Cook's compensation *in stock* is irrelevant to all of this nonsense you keep posting.
    Xed
  • Reply 66 of 67
    XedXed Posts: 1,601member
    Apple claims to be concerned about sustainability yet since 2011 do the accelerated macOS revisions fly in the face of that ? For profit ? Customer data harvesting for AI perhaps ?  

    In terms of sustainability would it be reasonable to expect support to be extended rather than reduced to make better use of hardware that can be repaired and or cradle to grave life cycle extended beyond the current 5 year 'policy'...?
    Your posts are a bizarre mix of barely-veiled "Steve would've never let this happen" and unchecked paranoia.

    macOS generally supports 7-8 year old hardware which is more than adequate. Nobody is forcing you to throw anything away after 5 years, so don't pretend like there's a "policy".

    Cook's compensation *in stock* is irrelevant to all of this nonsense you keep posting.
    I love that "for profit" model where Apple no longer charges $129 every two years for the macOS update. We get fewer features and less of a dramatic change every year, but it's free to users and much less of a learning curve with each advance.
Sign In or Register to comment.