I've never understood this mentality either. The armchair marketing genius' in this forum always conclude that you can't have processor speeds conflicting between consumer and prosumer models and that makes little to no sense.
The "armchair marketing geniuses" are the people trying to sell the machines in the first place.
Quote:
If a switcher really doesn't know the difference (and they probably won't notice the difference) then why not let them think they are getting one over on Apple by buying a cheap 1gig iBook? They can tell their friends that they got a great deal and that there is no reason to go for the PowerBook and Apple sells alot of iBooks. That's the way it should be.
Um, why would Apple be at all interested in people saying that there's "no reason to go for a PowerBook?" Especially when it's their most profitable line?
Also, you're basically saying Apple should deceive their customers and sell the really good hardware to some sort of intendenti. Frankly, the less of that they do, the better.
Quote:
The average consumer just doesn't see the product line grids that we see. They look at products side-by-side and get the most that they can afford at the time. Why make the choice of an iBook harder for them?
Why make the choice of a PowerBook harder for them?
The bottom line is that Apple loses nothing by making it absolutely clear in the customer's eyes that you get more when you pay more. The people looking for a compact, powerful laptop should walk out the door with the compact, powerful laptop (the PowerBook 12"). The customer gets what they asked for, and Apple makes a bit more money. Until computer shoppers adopt a more sophisticated way of comparing machines, this is the best way.
Fact is, an 800 mhz iBook will already outperform 12inch G4 Powerbook at just about anything, 'cause the Powerbook has jack for cache. The iBook's cheaper, runs cooler, performs better, has longer battery life, and a bigger screen, for much less.
A 1Ghz iBook would offer some serious competition to the 1Ghz Powerbook...but we'll see what happens. The iBook is definitely the best machine Apple has to offer right now.
Fact is, an 800 mhz iBook will already outperform 12inch G4 Powerbook at just about anything, 'cause the Powerbook has jack for cache. The iBook's cheaper, runs cooler, performs better, has longer battery life, and a bigger screen, for much less.
Fact is, an 800 mhz iBook will already outperform 12inch G4 Powerbook at just about anything, 'cause the Powerbook has jack for cache.
Wow, have you actually used a PB12 and iBook ???
I have.
Fact is, you couldn't be more wrong. First of all, the PB867 is between 2X and 3X faster in any altivec related task. The simple fact is that even in most games the PB12 performs better than the iBook. The fact is that in Timed tests the PB12 manages to stay within 5-10% of the 15"PB867 even though it has no L3 vs 1MB in the 15" model. Check around the net. Look for timed tests not benchmarks which do not reveal the true performance picture.
Ignore Bullshiat sites like barefeats and see what the timed tests done by MacWorld reveal.
If you do anything remotely serious with your computer, ie photoshop, or like to use iMovie and iPhoto a lot, , or need to have VPC for some reason, get a G4 based machine. If you just surf and and write emails, save your money and get the iBook, which is also nice.
If you don't believe me, load a bunch of pics into a camera and run them into iPhoto on the iBook, now scroll and watch the stutter, repeat the same proceedure on the PB12, marvelously smooth by comparison.
AS for DVD issues, they have never materialized on my machine, DVD's play back smooth as silk. I'm thinking this might have been a problem for some earlier units, mine was one of the first into Canada, but quite late by US standards, it works perfectly.
I would not buy a G3 based machine as my only mac if I had any intentions of making extensive use of iApps, the shop, and/or VPC.
Also, the PB never gets HOT under battery power or under normal use. It costs more, but it is clearly superior in build and performance.
yah, i keep wishing apple would give me an excuse to buy a mac desktop as cool as this little book, but they don't. Headless fast consumer mac, come on Apple, do it, and I will soon defend two models mac models.
In truth, I like the iBook too, and if I didn't get a really good deal on the pb12, need VPC, and/or only wanted to surf/owned another mac, i would have gone for an ibook.
Let's hope with this revision of the iBook line comes a fix for it's infamous memory-bandwidth problem.
Do you think that just maybe, just maybe, the memory bandwidth "problem" might have something to do with the much slower hard drive in an iBook? G3 towers didn't ship with 4200 RPM hard drives. Also, "Bouncemarks" are a notoriously poor measure of performance.
For those asking Apple to use 1 GHz G3s...have you seen anybody with a 1 GHz G3 anywhere? Even if they do exist, they'll probably command a huge premium over the 900 MHz part.
Flat-tube CRT monitors have two horizontal lines on them - one about 1/3 from the top, and one about 1/3 from the bottom. You sure that's not what you're seeing?
Also... if those specs are real then they are EXTREMELY disappointing and I'd be pissed at Apple for slacking off so much. At the very least they should give the low end a 30 GB hard drive, a DVD-ROM drive, and a 32 MB graphics card. I have a friend who wants to get an iBook as soon as they're updated (he's coming to Macs from a PC for the fifth time... weirdo) and he doesn't want to repeat what happened last time - he bought a 700 MHz/Combo iBook about two weeks before the 800 MHz ones came out. Luckily he bought a refurb so he ended up paying only $1250 for it instead of the full $1500. If Apple just bumps the processor speed by 100 MHz and does nothing else, he'll be disappointed and he may not buy one.
I also think Apple really needs to start including 256 MB of RAM as standard equipment on all their computers now that their computers are OS X-only. Someone who's just starting out with a Mac will use their 128 MB machine, see how incredibly slow it is, and assume that Macs are just slow crap computers when in fact it's just because Apple was stingy with their RAM. I'm 100% sure that Apple will make more money from the increased user satisfaction than they'll lose by adding more RAM at the same price. Besides, the low end has been stuck at 128 MB for about two years now, it's time for an increase. 256 MB on all consumer machines, 512 MB on all pro machines.
EDIT: I see that putting a 30 GB hard drive, a DVD-ROM and a 32 MB graphics card on the low end iBook would probably make everyone buy that instead of the higher end one... but they need to do it anyway. Meanwhile, give the high end iBooks a 40 GB hard drive, Combo drive, and the same 32 MB graphics card... but maybe also include an AirPort card. Or make 'em bluetooth/Airport Extreme compatible. I don't know HOW Apple's going to get these standards in place if they're so afraid of allowing people to use them.
A DVDROM in the low-end iBook is a must. Not many people need only a CDROM.
Maybe if they had a $799 iBook with a 20GB HDD, CDROM, 128MB RAM, and 700Mhz proc it would go over a bit better, but only at that price. Then the $999 iBook could have an 800Mhz proc, Combo drive, 256MB RAM, 30GB HDD, and Radeon 7500/16MB.
For those asking Apple to use 1 GHz G3s...have you seen anybody with a 1 GHz G3 anywhere? Even if they do exist, they'll probably command a huge premium over the 900 MHz part.
Have you seen any 800mhz G3s outside of an iBook? Even if they do exist, they probably command a huge premium!
If true, this gives us some indication about when we can expect the 7457: Six months from now, at the very earliest.
The iBook probably won't get, say, the 12" PowerBook's motherboard until the '57 can be dropped into it. It sure as heck isn't getting a 7445 or a 970!
I disagree with your deduction -- the iBook isn't likely to go G4 when the 7457 comes available (whenever that might be), instead the PowerBooks will use it to get faster G4s. I don't think we'll see the iBook change processors until IBM delivers an new core w/ SoC features or the PowerBooks go to the 970. 2004 at the earliest either way -- probably mid-2004 would be my guess.
Is it just me, or does a 100MHz speed bump with no other changes sound pathetic? They should wait and do a major update when new PowerBooks come out. 1GHz G3s and 32MB video cards across the board. Larger HDs. Airport Extreme. Bluetooth.
I have been playing around with a 12" Powerbook the last few days, a customer brought it back because she hated it and bought a 15" Powerbook instead. She does alot of Adobe stuff and found the performance of Adobe apps in X unacceptable.
It is cool looking, but I don't think it is enough better than the ibook to justify it. There is absolutly no excuse for the GeForce 420, that thing is just awful. Games like RTCW are just unplayable. I took the RTCW off the demo machines just because it made them look pathetic. But it runs just great on the 15" Powerbook.
And I find the DVD's semi-watchable , but my 700mhz (original radeon) iBook is so much better. ATI wrote the book on DVD acceleration, nvidia has been stalled since the TNT2.
It is hot, but unless you want the G4 and your okay with Mac OS X I wouldn't recommend it.
Plus, about 1 in 5 of them seems to be very badly warped
Timed tests don't lie. Barefeats is easily the worst mac reviewer on the net, they've inadvertently admitted to manufacturing test results on more than one occasion. Macworld by comparison gives a very good picture of relative performance between macs because rather than run benchmarks they time a set of representative tasks and report their findings in terms of seconds to completion.
If you can work with a Ti867, you can work with the PB12, they are pretty close in overall performance (within about 10%) but the Ghz Ti and 17"Al are quiet a bit faster.
I must just be lucky I guess, straight, cool, great DVD playback, I dunno.
I've used a 14" Radeon7500 iBook and it doesn't outperform the PB12 in any games, and certainly not in any Adobe or iApp tasks, where it doesn't even compete.
And again, the brouhaha about the 420Go seems unfounded to me, looking at framerates for most games, the 32MB 420 and the 32MB 7500/9000 in the 800/867 Ti return comparable frame rates. The directX performance on the PC side is not representative of the OpenGL performance on the mac side where the difference between ATI and nVidia laptop product is far less.
What should happen is a minor bump along the lines described in this thread coupled with a slight price drop. 50-100 dollars less per model and a DVD-ROM on the low end.
Is it just me, or does a 100MHz speed bump with no other changes sound pathetic? They should wait and do a major update when new PowerBooks come out. 1GHz G3s and 32MB video cards across the board. Larger HDs. Airport Extreme. Bluetooth.
I believe Apple has been waiting patiently for the last several years now to get everything just right.
I just hope the act soon before market share approaches zero...
I believe Apple has been waiting patiently for the last several years now to get everything just right.
I just hope the act soon before market share approaches zero...
Unfortunately they been forced to wait, but rather I think they've been wainting painfully?at least I have for the past couple years. The time is coming when they won't have to wait, and I sure hope they don't. This meaning that i hope they stop giving lame 100 mhz updates and give us substantial evolutions in quick succession like the rest of the industry once they are rid of Moto.
I disagree with your deduction -- the iBook isn't likely to go G4 when the 7457 comes available (whenever that might be), instead the PowerBooks will use it to get faster G4s. I don't think we'll see the iBook change processors until IBM delivers an new core w/ SoC features or the PowerBooks go to the 970. 2004 at the earliest either way -- probably mid-2004 would be my guess.
Hmmm. I certainly won't discount the possibility, but the reason I think the iBook will jump sooner is Steve: He's argued time and again that kids learn and communicate visually now more than ever, and that educational tools should accomodate that. What are Apple's educational tools? How well do they run Apple's consumer multimedia apps? Apple has already showed off kids making movies in camps and workshops, but they had to sit in computer labs staring at iMacs to do it. This can be improved, and the primary target for any improvement is the iBook. The obvious improvement is the G4, since that opens up the possibilities of the SuperDrive, and of the sort of encoding and effects processing that AltiVec enables.
So if there's a delay, it will be because Apple has their hands tied as far as portable CPUs go. And that could happen. It's certainly happened before. So I'm a little hesitant to agree that my first post was a deduction, since that implies a lot more rigor than can be applied to the question. I'm happier with speculation, and I'm willing to be optimistic about this line of speculation.
Comments
Originally posted by MacGregor
I've never understood this mentality either. The armchair marketing genius' in this forum always conclude that you can't have processor speeds conflicting between consumer and prosumer models and that makes little to no sense.
The "armchair marketing geniuses" are the people trying to sell the machines in the first place.
If a switcher really doesn't know the difference (and they probably won't notice the difference) then why not let them think they are getting one over on Apple by buying a cheap 1gig iBook? They can tell their friends that they got a great deal and that there is no reason to go for the PowerBook and Apple sells alot of iBooks. That's the way it should be.
Um, why would Apple be at all interested in people saying that there's "no reason to go for a PowerBook?" Especially when it's their most profitable line?
Also, you're basically saying Apple should deceive their customers and sell the really good hardware to some sort of intendenti. Frankly, the less of that they do, the better.
The average consumer just doesn't see the product line grids that we see. They look at products side-by-side and get the most that they can afford at the time. Why make the choice of an iBook harder for them?
Why make the choice of a PowerBook harder for them?
The bottom line is that Apple loses nothing by making it absolutely clear in the customer's eyes that you get more when you pay more. The people looking for a compact, powerful laptop should walk out the door with the compact, powerful laptop (the PowerBook 12"). The customer gets what they asked for, and Apple makes a bit more money. Until computer shoppers adopt a more sophisticated way of comparing machines, this is the best way.
A 1Ghz iBook would offer some serious competition to the 1Ghz Powerbook...but we'll see what happens. The iBook is definitely the best machine Apple has to offer right now.
Fact is, an 800 mhz iBook will already outperform 12inch G4 Powerbook at just about anything, 'cause the Powerbook has jack for cache. The iBook's cheaper, runs cooler, performs better, has longer battery life, and a bigger screen, for much less.
That's not a fact. You're believing a myth.
http://www.macworld.com/2003/04/revi...inchpowerbook/
Originally posted by Gizzmonic
Fact is, an 800 mhz iBook will already outperform 12inch G4 Powerbook at just about anything, 'cause the Powerbook has jack for cache.
Wow, have you actually used a PB12 and iBook ???
I have.
Fact is, you couldn't be more wrong. First of all, the PB867 is between 2X and 3X faster in any altivec related task. The simple fact is that even in most games the PB12 performs better than the iBook. The fact is that in Timed tests the PB12 manages to stay within 5-10% of the 15"PB867 even though it has no L3 vs 1MB in the 15" model. Check around the net. Look for timed tests not benchmarks which do not reveal the true performance picture.
Ignore Bullshiat sites like barefeats and see what the timed tests done by MacWorld reveal.
If you do anything remotely serious with your computer, ie photoshop, or like to use iMovie and iPhoto a lot, , or need to have VPC for some reason, get a G4 based machine. If you just surf and and write emails, save your money and get the iBook, which is also nice.
If you don't believe me, load a bunch of pics into a camera and run them into iPhoto on the iBook, now scroll and watch the stutter, repeat the same proceedure on the PB12, marvelously smooth by comparison.
AS for DVD issues, they have never materialized on my machine, DVD's play back smooth as silk. I'm thinking this might have been a problem for some earlier units, mine was one of the first into Canada, but quite late by US standards, it works perfectly.
I would not buy a G3 based machine as my only mac if I had any intentions of making extensive use of iApps, the shop, and/or VPC.
Also, the PB never gets HOT under battery power or under normal use. It costs more, but it is clearly superior in build and performance.
g
In truth, I like the iBook too, and if I didn't get a really good deal on the pb12, need VPC, and/or only wanted to surf/owned another mac, i would have gone for an ibook.
Originally posted by willywalloo
Let's hope with this revision of the iBook line comes a fix for it's infamous memory-bandwidth problem.
Do you think that just maybe, just maybe, the memory bandwidth "problem" might have something to do with the much slower hard drive in an iBook? G3 towers didn't ship with 4200 RPM hard drives. Also, "Bouncemarks" are a notoriously poor measure of performance.
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno
Flat-tube CRT monitors have two horizontal lines on them - one about 1/3 from the top, and one about 1/3 from the bottom. You sure that's not what you're seeing?
Also... if those specs are real then they are EXTREMELY disappointing and I'd be pissed at Apple for slacking off so much. At the very least they should give the low end a 30 GB hard drive, a DVD-ROM drive, and a 32 MB graphics card. I have a friend who wants to get an iBook as soon as they're updated (he's coming to Macs from a PC for the fifth time... weirdo) and he doesn't want to repeat what happened last time - he bought a 700 MHz/Combo iBook about two weeks before the 800 MHz ones came out. Luckily he bought a refurb so he ended up paying only $1250 for it instead of the full $1500. If Apple just bumps the processor speed by 100 MHz and does nothing else, he'll be disappointed and he may not buy one.
I also think Apple really needs to start including 256 MB of RAM as standard equipment on all their computers now that their computers are OS X-only. Someone who's just starting out with a Mac will use their 128 MB machine, see how incredibly slow it is, and assume that Macs are just slow crap computers when in fact it's just because Apple was stingy with their RAM. I'm 100% sure that Apple will make more money from the increased user satisfaction than they'll lose by adding more RAM at the same price. Besides, the low end has been stuck at 128 MB for about two years now, it's time for an increase. 256 MB on all consumer machines, 512 MB on all pro machines.
EDIT: I see that putting a 30 GB hard drive, a DVD-ROM and a 32 MB graphics card on the low end iBook would probably make everyone buy that instead of the higher end one... but they need to do it anyway. Meanwhile, give the high end iBooks a 40 GB hard drive, Combo drive, and the same 32 MB graphics card... but maybe also include an AirPort card. Or make 'em bluetooth/Airport Extreme compatible. I don't know HOW Apple's going to get these standards in place if they're so afraid of allowing people to use them.
A DVDROM in the low-end iBook is a must. Not many people need only a CDROM.
Maybe if they had a $799 iBook with a 20GB HDD, CDROM, 128MB RAM, and 700Mhz proc it would go over a bit better, but only at that price. Then the $999 iBook could have an 800Mhz proc, Combo drive, 256MB RAM, 30GB HDD, and Radeon 7500/16MB.
Originally posted by Eugene
For those asking Apple to use 1 GHz G3s...have you seen anybody with a 1 GHz G3 anywhere? Even if they do exist, they'll probably command a huge premium over the 900 MHz part.
Have you seen any 800mhz G3s outside of an iBook? Even if they do exist, they probably command a huge premium!
Originally posted by Amorph
If true, this gives us some indication about when we can expect the 7457: Six months from now, at the very earliest.
The iBook probably won't get, say, the 12" PowerBook's motherboard until the '57 can be dropped into it. It sure as heck isn't getting a 7445 or a 970!
I disagree with your deduction -- the iBook isn't likely to go G4 when the 7457 comes available (whenever that might be), instead the PowerBooks will use it to get faster G4s. I don't think we'll see the iBook change processors until IBM delivers an new core w/ SoC features or the PowerBooks go to the 970. 2004 at the earliest either way -- probably mid-2004 would be my guess.
It is cool looking, but I don't think it is enough better than the ibook to justify it. There is absolutly no excuse for the GeForce 420, that thing is just awful. Games like RTCW are just unplayable. I took the RTCW off the demo machines just because it made them look pathetic. But it runs just great on the 15" Powerbook.
And I find the DVD's semi-watchable , but my 700mhz (original radeon) iBook is so much better. ATI wrote the book on DVD acceleration, nvidia has been stalled since the TNT2.
It is hot, but unless you want the G4 and your okay with Mac OS X I wouldn't recommend it.
Plus, about 1 in 5 of them seems to be very badly warped
Originally posted by Matsu
Ignore Bullshiat sites like barefeats and see what the timed tests done by MacWorld reveal.
Oh, really? I thought I was ignoring the bullshit by passing over the MacWorld reviews. Guess I was wrong.
If you can work with a Ti867, you can work with the PB12, they are pretty close in overall performance (within about 10%) but the Ghz Ti and 17"Al are quiet a bit faster.
I must just be lucky I guess, straight, cool, great DVD playback, I dunno.
I've used a 14" Radeon7500 iBook and it doesn't outperform the PB12 in any games, and certainly not in any Adobe or iApp tasks, where it doesn't even compete.
And again, the brouhaha about the 420Go seems unfounded to me, looking at framerates for most games, the 32MB 420 and the 32MB 7500/9000 in the 800/867 Ti return comparable frame rates. The directX performance on the PC side is not representative of the OpenGL performance on the mac side where the difference between ATI and nVidia laptop product is far less.
What should happen is a minor bump along the lines described in this thread coupled with a slight price drop. 50-100 dollars less per model and a DVD-ROM on the low end.
Originally posted by Kecksy
[B]Is it just me, or does a 100MHz speed bump with no other changes sound pathetic?
It's not just you.
Originally posted by Kecksy
Is it just me, or does a 100MHz speed bump with no other changes sound pathetic? They should wait and do a major update when new PowerBooks come out. 1GHz G3s and 32MB video cards across the board. Larger HDs. Airport Extreme. Bluetooth.
I believe Apple has been waiting patiently for the last several years now to get everything just right.
I just hope the act soon before market share approaches zero...
I believe Apple has been waiting patiently for the last several years now to get everything just right.
I just hope the act soon before market share approaches zero...
Unfortunately they been forced to wait, but rather I think they've been wainting painfully?at least I have for the past couple years. The time is coming when they won't have to wait, and I sure hope they don't. This meaning that i hope they stop giving lame 100 mhz updates and give us substantial evolutions in quick succession like the rest of the industry once they are rid of Moto.
Originally posted by Programmer
I disagree with your deduction -- the iBook isn't likely to go G4 when the 7457 comes available (whenever that might be), instead the PowerBooks will use it to get faster G4s. I don't think we'll see the iBook change processors until IBM delivers an new core w/ SoC features or the PowerBooks go to the 970. 2004 at the earliest either way -- probably mid-2004 would be my guess.
Hmmm. I certainly won't discount the possibility, but the reason I think the iBook will jump sooner is Steve: He's argued time and again that kids learn and communicate visually now more than ever, and that educational tools should accomodate that. What are Apple's educational tools? How well do they run Apple's consumer multimedia apps? Apple has already showed off kids making movies in camps and workshops, but they had to sit in computer labs staring at iMacs to do it. This can be improved, and the primary target for any improvement is the iBook. The obvious improvement is the G4, since that opens up the possibilities of the SuperDrive, and of the sort of encoding and effects processing that AltiVec enables.
So if there's a delay, it will be because Apple has their hands tied as far as portable CPUs go. And that could happen. It's certainly happened before. So I'm a little hesitant to agree that my first post was a deduction, since that implies a lot more rigor than can be applied to the question.