iPhone must use USB-C by 2024, says EU law

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 84
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,742member
    spheric said:
    Madbum said:
    spheric said:
    Madbum said:
    EU=Modern day communists in suits
    Anything I don't like = communism. 

    It's amazing how McCarthyism can still raise its perverse stink, seven decades and more than two generations later. 
    Do you see USA telling BMW to make cars like GM?

    Maybe you like communism?
    That's probably the dumbest thing I'm going to read all day, I think. 

    Do you mean like US regulators have been telling German manufacturers to build cars for many decades?  :D

    European version: 



    US version, with required double headlights and the ugly bumper-car bumpers completely ruining the gorgeous lines and the lightness of the design: 


    Fuckin' Commies, those Americans. 

    That's a poor example to compare to the EU forcing Apple to use the USB-C port on their devices, for the perceived benefit of reducing E-waste from chargers.

    First of all, the US did not force Mercedes to design "ugly" bumpers. The regulation was that the auto had to survive a 5MPH crash test with no damages. The auto manufacturers could have use any design that worked. They were not forced to use the same standard bumper design.

    Second, the 5MPH bumper served a real function. It had the real effect of reducing the cost auto repair for the consumers. There is no real reduction in E-Waste by forcing manufacturers to use a USB-C charging port on their devices. No USB-C charger comes with permanently attached cable. Why in the name of Hell do headphones, mice, keyboards and speakers need to use a USB-C port for charging? They have no need for fast data transfer. For these, a USB micro port for charging will serve exactly the same function as a USB-C port, when used with a USB-C charger. With no added E-waste from chargers.

    And for the year of the Mercedes shown, Mercedes could have used single rectangular headlights (on each side). Granted maybe at the time, they might had to be the standard seal beam ones. But in 1984, the US did start allowing composite headlights with replaceable bulbs.

    Here's a 1980 Ford Pinto with single rectangular seal beam headlights. And of course an "ugly" 5MPH bumper. It seems Mercedes copied the Pinto 5MPH bumper but not the single (on each side) rectangular headlight. Which they could have done in the mid eighties. So in the mid eighties, Mercedes had the choice of using on each side, a single round headlight, two round headlights, two rectangular headlights, a singe rectangular headlight and maybe headlights with replaceable bulbs. That a far cry from the US forcing Mercedes to use two round headlights in its design.  

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/284722705224

    Here's the 1984 Lincoln with the European composite headlights with replaceable bulb.
    .
    https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/a-brighter-idea

     more detail about the history of headlights in the US  - https://www.carid.com/articles/brief-history-of-sealed-beam-headlights-in-us.html

    I'm willing to bet that if the EU was first to mandated autos survive a 5MPH crash test back in the 70's, you would claim how the EU was way ahead of its time by saving consumers money on the cost of auto repair. Even if it resulted in "ugly" bumpers. 

    But I do agree that the Euro Mercedes were much more "sleeker" looking than the US models of the same year. 

      
    edited October 2022 chadbagFileMakerFellersphericwatto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 84
    thttht Posts: 4,729member
    I think Apple was going to switch to USB4/TB4 for iPhones over the next couple of years, and they've cancelled the portless iPhone design. There was something holding them back from improving Lightning, which is basically unchanged for 10 years now. It could have been a decision to go portless or to go USB Type C, whatever the eventual phone features and usage warranted.

    The latest rumors have Apple going USB Type C and rumors of the portless iPhone from 2 to 3 years have gone away. So, if the 2023 iPhone has USB Type C, with whatever USB3/4, TB3/4 protocols, they probably made the decision in 2020 or perhaps 1H 2021. The camera team probably won out, as getting 10, 100 GB videos off an iPhone isn't pleasant with Lightning, and videos and photos are only getting bigger, not smaller.

    By "improving Lightning", I mean increasing the data transfer rates to 5, 10, 20 gbit/s and perhaps power to 40 to 50 W. That they didn't and basically held it unchanged, not even a USB3 gen 3 whatever data rate of 10 gbit/s, I think, really implies they were going to move away from it.

    I think the idea of keeping it due to licensing fees for MFI accessories is incorrect. There's going to be a MFI accessory program even it was USBC. There's enough cable confusion with USBC such that MFI will be a big branding advantage, and there is marketing power with it in of itself. It's just going to continue apace, not matter the port.
    FileMakerFellermuthuk_vanalingamdewme
  • Reply 43 of 84
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,742member
    bala1234 said:
    macgui said:
    I don't mind USB-C for anything other than iPads or iPhones. Newer iPads already use USB-C, but I'd like to see Apple keep it off the iPhone for as long as possible. I'm good with Lightning.

    It wouldn't and couldn't happen, but I'd like to see Apple say FU to the EU — "USB-C?? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' USB-C!" Not gonna happen though. The EU is too big of a market, so if Apple can't get around them, say "hi" to in on the phone.

    Why? not trying to start a flame war here but, you have iPads and presumably already have usb-c chargers and cables. You are really so eager to carry one more cable?. I get the point about distaste for bureaucracies dictating terms to private companies. But why would you be opposed to it personally?
    No, macgui did not say he/she had a newer iPad with USB-C. He/she wants to keep USB-C off of iPads and iPhones, even though the some newer iPads already comes with USB-C. If anything, he/she already have all the lightning chargers and cables needed and if Apple were forced to use USB-C on newer devices, then he/she would need to carry two cables because of new device purchases. There are a lot more people with older lightening iPads and iPhones that will purchase a new iPhone or iPad, than there are people with a newer USB-C iPad that will purchase a new iPhone or iPad. 

    So for the vast majority, they already have the needed lightening chargers and cables and would need to carry two cables (and/or chargers) if they were to buy any newer Apple devices with USB-C ports. Now, as you stated, why would they want to carry one more cable. And of course the other side wanting to force Apple to change to USB-C ports would say ..... it's only an extra cable, what's the big deal? But I'm glad that you realize that it's really only the cable and not the whole charger, that is in question when concerning E-waste. So what's the big deal with forcing to forcing Apple yo use an USB-C port on their devices?  
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 84
    I won’t upgrade to an iPhone with USB-C. I have 10+ lightning cables and this will result in furthering man made climate change by forcing millions of people like me to go buy all new cables and charging blocks since most of mine are the old usb square blocks and old ipad blocks as well. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 84
    Now how did I know this article was going to have the most comments of all the ones published today?

    A mere 12 years after two (!) European standards bodies agreed that Micro-USB was the way to go for smartphones (and using an adapter was sufficient to meet the standard), we have this new piece of legislation that is finalised 8 years after the USB-C standard was formally ratified.

    I'm really not sure how "future-proof" is an applicable phrase. I'm not curious enough to read the legislation, though.
    edited October 2022 sphericwatto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 84
    spheric said:
    thrang said:
    What if someone invents a better connector next year? Or: who would be motivated to think of something better?

    It is deeply inappropriate for governments to get this granularly invasive in industrial product design. Moronic is the better way to describe it.


    While I fundamentally believe that the government should absolutely get involved when things go south, I share your concern about what happens three years from now when a better connector shows up. 

    It does give me pause that last year alone, chargers obsoleted by new phones apparently accounted for ELEVEN TONS of garbage in the EU. 
    Given the most recent estimate for the population of the EU is 512,596,403 that equates to 0.000000021459378 tons per person. Depending on whether you meant TONS (2000 pounds) or TONNES (1000kg, ~2200 pounds) then it's either 0.0000429187561 pounds per person or 0.00002145937805 kilograms (~0.02 grams) per person. For a year.

    For comparison, the total waste per person in the EU from 2020 is 4.8 tonnes, of which ~39% (roughly 1.9 tonnes) was recycled.

    I'm not saying 11 tonnes of any waste is not worth examining, I'm not saying that e-waste should be ignored - but 0.02g vs 2700kg should be borne in mind while calculating the relative importance of different types of waste. 
    thtwatto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 84
    What happens if China or California decides to mandate some other standard? 

    How about governments regulate important things and not trivial things like this?

    If the EU really want to reduce e-waste they could mandate that companies can only release new models of phones every three years. That would make as much sense as this and reduce a lot more waste.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 84
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,716member
    Apple shouldn’t need to be dragged kicking and screaming to implementing USB-C on iPhones. They just can’t seem to get past Lightning because of the revenue it brings in, regardless of how inferior it is.
    I actually find lightning to be superior to USB C - the plug seats more securely, is actually a bit smaller and the female port is not coaxial so it’s easier to clear debris. The power and data capabilities are more than enough for the intended purposes.

    Having said that I’m torn on this law. There are many advantages to standardizing everything to USB C. I still find devices for sale that use mini and micro USB connectors. Seriously? Talk about a pain in the butt! Even Apple has fragmented its ecosystem, splitting it between USB C and lightning. And didn’t Phil Schiller say “USB C is the future” something like 7 years ago?
    muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobrarandominternetperson
  • Reply 49 of 84
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,716member
    Madbum said:
    spheric said:
    Madbum said:
    EU=Modern day communists in suits
    Anything I don't like = communism. 

    It's amazing how McCarthyism can still raise its perverse stink, seven decades and more than two generations later. 
    Do you see USA telling BMW to make cars like GM?

    Maybe you like communism?
    Actually, yes. Take a look at all the federal regulations that manufacturers must comply with to sell cars in the U.S. 
  • Reply 50 of 84
    cg27cg27 Posts: 188member
    The naysayers here are missing the point, especially with car comparisons.

    Imagine if only certain gas station pumps were compatible with certain cars.  That would be anti-competitive and inconvenient, and potentially dangerous.

    Sure, in this early evolving state of EVs certain companies like Tesla have a proprietary connector and charging network, but over time with major government initiatives chargers will become plentiful and standardized.  This is a good thing.  So long as the plan has been proven out and vetted by techies not just bureaucrats.

    What’s needed for electronics is a hardware connection standard that remains frozen but can be upgraded for speed and/or power.  Seems like USB-C fits the bill.  Unless it’s not mechanically robust and reliable for the long haul, then the e-waste savings argument falls flat.
  • Reply 51 of 84
    dlt said:
    The EU needs to remember they would be speaking German today if it wasn’t for the United States and quit dictating how our iPhones should. I have a lot of money invested in charging stands that are lightening. Apple should pull iPhones out of EU and let the people there scream. May be then the EU would get off their high horse.
    Many of USA’s technical advances of today are based on the scientific development by German scientists and mathematicians.  Add in the many scientists from other countries. 

    BTW there were countries other than the USA fighting as the Allies in WW II. The Americans turned up late and not for noble reasons. Get your head out of the Hollywood fairy tales.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 52 of 84
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    cg27 said:
    The naysayers here are missing the point, especially with car comparisons.

    Imagine if only certain gas station pumps were compatible with certain cars.  That would be anti-competitive and inconvenient, and potentially dangerous.
    We manage to cope with diesel easily enough.  I think it’s time to ditch the car comparisons outright. iPhones are not cars. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 53 of 84
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 3,219member
    Does the new EU law apply only to sold device or does it also apply to leased devices? Maybe Apple could simply lease all new iPhones in the EU to skirt the law.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 54 of 84
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,348member
    For those of you who are rejoicing over Apple being forced to do something it doesn’t want to do what will be your response when the EU or some other government mandates something YOU don’t like and don’t want? What if the EU decides to ‘harmonize’ operating systems by mandating Android as the official mobile operating system of its territory. All mobile devices operating in the EU must run Android ‘for the good of the people’. Wouldn’t that be a benefit to citizens? They could buy whichever brand of phone they want and not have to buy or re-download apps. They wouldn’t have to learn how to use a different operating system. They would all get updates at the same time for the same bugs and security patches. One big homogenous family!

    Then there’s right-to-repair on the horizon. Anyone who thinks there won’t be government input on how a device is designed and manufactured is whistling past the graveyard. The activists have been clamoring for years for standardization of screws, sealing compounds and methods, component replacement (which would definitely include design changes), and user replaceable batteries. 

    Once the camel’s nose is under the tent you know what happens after that.
    edited October 2022 watto_cobrarandominternetperson
  • Reply 55 of 84
    dewmedewme Posts: 4,658member
    Technically speaking this isn’t even worth fighting about anymore. The only question is whether Apple puts thunderbolt behind the USB-C port. 
    sphericwatto_cobra
  • Reply 56 of 84
    lkrupp said:
    For those of you who are rejoicing over Apple being forced to do something it doesn’t want to do what will be your response when the EU or some other government mandates something YOU don’t like and don’t want? What if the EU decides to ‘harmonize’ operating systems by mandating Android as the official mobile operating system of its territory. All mobile devices operating in the EU must run Android ‘for the good of the people’. Wouldn’t that be a benefit to citizens? They could buy whichever brand of phone they want and not have to buy or re-download apps. They wouldn’t have to learn how to use a different operating system. They would all get updates at the same time for the same bugs and security patches. One big homogenous family!

    Then there’s right-to-repair on the horizon. Anyone who thinks there won’t be government input on how a device is designed and manufactured is whistling past the graveyard. The activists have been clamoring for years for standardization of screws, sealing compounds and methods, component replacement (which would definitely include design changes), and user replaceable batteries. 

    Once the camel’s nose is under the tent you know what happens after that.
    Your first line was good. Then it went downhill from there. Let EU demand whatever they want to demand. It will be Apple who will respond to the demands as they deem appropriate. If they choose the path of compliance like they have done in China (effectively handing over the chinese user data to chinese government, all the while shouting at the highest decibel levels possible from the top of every mountain in the world that Privacy is a birthright of humankind in not only planet earth, but entire universe), what is your problem? You understand Apple can "choose" not do business in EU if the demands from EU are unreasonable, right?
    crowleyspheric
  • Reply 57 of 84
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    lkrupp said:
    For those of you who are rejoicing over Apple being forced to do something it doesn’t want to do what will be your response when the EU or some other government mandates something YOU don’t like and don’t want? What if the EU decides to ‘harmonize’ operating systems by mandating Android as the official mobile operating system of its territory. All mobile devices operating in the EU must run Android ‘for the good of the people’. Wouldn’t that be a benefit to citizens? They could buy whichever brand of phone they want and not have to buy or re-download apps. They wouldn’t have to learn how to use a different operating system. They would all get updates at the same time for the same bugs and security patches. One big homogenous family!

    Then there’s right-to-repair on the horizon. Anyone who thinks there won’t be government input on how a device is designed and manufactured is whistling past the graveyard. The activists have been clamoring for years for standardization of screws, sealing compounds and methods, component replacement (which would definitely include design changes), and user replaceable batteries. 

    Once the camel’s nose is under the tent you know what happens after that.
    For all you rejoicing over the government mandating seatbelts, just imagine how you’ll feel when the government demands that all cars have six wheels.

    It’s coming, you better believe it. 
    muthuk_vanalingambala1234
  • Reply 58 of 84
    JP234JP234 Posts: 815member
    Next question is what flavor of USB-C will Apple implement in the iPhone 15 some of us are waiting to buy? Hope it’s Thunderbolt 4 but I’m not holding my breath. Still using a 4 year old 512GB XS Max until the iPhone 15 has a fast USB-C port on it. So I’ll be taking a 5 year leap next September.
    Please elucidate your perceived benefit from a bandwidth greater than 10gb/sec on a phone?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 59 of 84
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,522member
    There are a lot of wildly inaccurate affirmations in some comments. 

    It's worth reading both the impact assessments and the final text to see what's going on here.

    This legislation is a just small piece of a much larger pie which, in general terms, serves to improve environmental protections, consumer protections, improve interoperability and reduce fragmentation (in the case of charging).

    It shouldn't be taken on its own but in the context of the broader goals. 

    Firstly, and patently clear to anyone that bothered to read the impact assessments, there is no perfect solution to current problems. The impact assessments break everything down into a matrix and highlight the pros and cons of different combinations of actions. 

    Secondly, innovation and future proofing. In the field of innovation in battery technology, Apple has no claim to that. It left users on 5W chargers (which it absolutely knew most would never be used) for a decade. It left users on a largely unchanged Lightning connection for ten years too. It was late to wireless charging and slow with speeds. Innovation and battery technology aren't two words that you will associate with Apple. 

    As for future proofing, this is a snippet from the final EU text:

    "USB Type-C is a technology that is already common to many categories or classes of 
    radio equipment as it provides high-quality charging and data transfer. The USB Type C charging receptacle, when combined with the USB Power Delivery charging 
    communication protocol, is capable of providing up to 100 Watts of power and 
    therefore leaves ample room for further development of fast charging solutions, while also allowing the market to cater for low-end devices that do not need fast charging. 
    Mobile phones and similar radio equipment that support fast charging can incorporate 
    the USB Power Delivery features as described in standard EN IEC 62680-1-2.2021
    ‘Universal serial bus interfaces for data and power – Part 1-2: Common components - 
    USB Power Delivery specification’. USB specifications are the subject of continuous 
    development. In that regard, the USB Implementers Forum developed an updated 
    version of the USB Power Delivery specification, which enables powers of up to 240 Watts to be supported. Adaptations have also been made to the USB Type-C 
    specification, which will extend the requirements for connectors and cables to 
    accommodate powers of up to 240 Watts. This will allow radio equipment requiring 
    such levels of power to be considered for potential inclusion in the list of radio 
    equipment covered by this Directive."

    It's worth remembering that innovation per se can fly in the face of what the EU is trying to tackle: fragmentation. 

    Innovation is one of the reasons that led to fragmentation. Standardising charging technology doesn't erect a wall to innovation. It simply standardises things and helps with another key objective of the EU: interoperability. 

    Thirdly. Timing. No, the EU wasn't 'slow' to deal with this. It spent literally years trying to get industry players to offer solutions that met its objectives without resorting to legislation. This is noted in the very first paragraphs of the text. The problem was that not enough progress was being made so the EU drew up this legislation to move things along. 

    That said, no legislation is perfect out of the gate and it will be revised and updated. It will take time for compliant products to reach consumers. Apple (and the public at large) were involved in the consultation process. All the major industry players put their opinions on the table but there are some inescapable realities here. Apple is the gatekeeper to its lightning port and takes a fee from every connector that docks in it. It's a revenue stream. It does not give a hoot about innovation in charging technology. 

    Lastly, USB-C port fragility. Having used it for years (along with countless millions of others) I have not seen anyone run into problems through normal usage. 

    My Honor 10 had a very heavy book fall onto the charging connector while charging and stopped charging reliably (the physical connection was seemingly fine). It cost me 29€ to change the port and they threw in a new battery for free. All official hardware and installed by authorised technicians. 

    Those other EU directives that are coming down the pipe include areas like repairabilty so it's reasonable to assume that changing ports will not be an issue if the case arises.
    edited October 2022 muthuk_vanalingamMplsPdecoderringspheric
  • Reply 60 of 84
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,522member
    lkrupp said:
    For those of you who are rejoicing over Apple being forced to do something it doesn’t want to do what will be your response when the EU or some other government mandates something YOU don’t like and don’t want? What if the EU decides to ‘harmonize’ operating systems by mandating Android as the official mobile operating system of its territory. All mobile devices operating in the EU must run Android ‘for the good of the people’. Wouldn’t that be a benefit to citizens? They could buy whichever brand of phone they want and not have to buy or re-download apps. They wouldn’t have to learn how to use a different operating system. They would all get updates at the same time for the same bugs and security patches. One big homogenous family!

    Then there’s right-to-repair on the horizon. Anyone who thinks there won’t be government input on how a device is designed and manufactured is whistling past the graveyard. The activists have been clamoring for years for standardization of screws, sealing compounds and methods, component replacement (which would definitely include design changes), and user replaceable batteries. 

    Once the camel’s nose is under the tent you know what happens after that.
    Operating systems aren't a problem. The EU will never mandate a system that requires using just one.

    Interoperability, gatekeeping, lock-in, data privacy and a whole bunch of other things are potential problems and will be tackled duly.

    That is actually happening as we speak. There is a lot coming down the pipe.

    And yes, it does include repairabilty so government input will be there and if that hardware is software dependent that will be covered.

    Current proposals call for users to be able to roll back updates for functionality that wasn't present at the time of purchase. They also include a requirement for the user to know at purchase time how much software support will be provided at a minimum and that minimum may even be set by government. 

    Fasten your seatbelt because much of what is coming is very likely to bleed over to you and eventually it may be you who is rejoicing as these measures are designed with consumers and the environment in mind. 
    muthuk_vanalingamMplsPdecoderringspheric
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