TSMC is continuing to complain about 'unacceptable' US chip plant terms

AppleInsider

Apple's processor manufacturer TSMC is asking the US for $15 billion in aid to help it build plants in the country, but is arguing against the Biden Administration's conditions.

TSMC investing $40 billion in Arizona fabs

Taiwan's TSMC is nearing the opening of its Arizona plant, and the US wants it to build more, but there were already political and financial pressures. As the US does not recognize Taiwan as a separate nation, it has no tax agreement with the country -- so TSMC pays tax twice.

According to the Wall Street Journal, TSMC has now said that it is concerned about rules that the US requires it to follow regarding profit sharing and operational information.

"Some of the conditions are unacceptable," TSMC chair Mark Liu told attendees at an industry meeting, "and we aim to mitigate any negative impact from these and will continue discussions with the US government."

Liu also said that the current terms could dissuade chip makers from working with the US. In response, the Biden Administration has said that its rules are intended to protect American taxpayers and see that their money is used as stated.

It further says that, without specifying details, the US Commerce Department would only expect profit sharing if those profits greatly exceed projections. The Wall Street Journal further reports that the US says it would protect TSMC's confidential information.

In December 2022, TSMC announced that it was tripling its investment in Arizona to $40 billion, and would be opening a second plant there.

Between these two Arizona plants, unspecified sources told the Wall Street Journal that TSMC expects to get tax credits of between $7 billion and $8 billion, under the Chips Act. The sources say the company is also considering asking for a similar $6 billion to $7 billion in grants from the Commerce Department.

Previously, TSMC has questioned the US attempts to bolster local chip manufacturing, even saying the plans are "doomed to fail," although without fully specifying why. TSMC is said to believe that its dominance in the semiconductor market is a "silicon shield" that protects it as tensions continue between the US and China.

Those same political tensions reportedly caused investor Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathway firm to sell almost all of its stock in TSMC.

Aside from politics, and adding to its litany of complaints about working in the US, TSMC engineers claim that Americans don't work hard enough.

Read on AppleInsider

daalseth

Geez, what a bunch of whiners. They knew what things looked like going in. Maybe they thought if they stamped their foot and cried enough that the government would fold like the State of Wisconsin did. Dudes, you sighed a contract, hold up your end or pay the penalty. You don’t want to be double taxed? Talk to the government of Taiwan. 

As far as their bi*ching about how Americans don’t work hard enough. We may not work as hard as you’d like but you see your employees as replaceable, disposable pieces that can be used up and thrown away. In the west we put a higher value on the welfare of our fellow citizens. Once again you knew this going in, so shut up or GTFO. 

aestival

DAalseth said:

Geez, what a bunch of whiners. They knew what things looked like going in. Maybe they thought if they stamped their foot and cried enough that the government would fold like the State of Wisconsin did. Dudes, you sighed a contract, hold up your end or pay the penalty. You don’t want to be double taxed? Talk to the government of Taiwan. 

As far as their bi*ching about how Americans don’t work hard enough. We may not work as hard as you’d like but you see your employees as replaceable, disposable pieces that can be used up and thrown away. In the west we put a higher value on the welfare of our fellow citizens. Once again you knew this going in, so shut up or GTFO. 

Taiwan is not recognized as a country because of Chinese pressure, the same Chinese pressure that has Taiwan under imminent threat of invasion. But by all means go off on some cultural supremacist rant if you feel the need to share your complete lack of empathy for the people of Taiwan.

avon b7

Just yesterday, there were reports claiming that TSMC had massively cut orders for EUV machines from ASML.

There is a possibility that could imply less new plants (as opposed to expansion of existing plants or hardware renewal). 

9secondkox2

The obvious solution is to fix the oversight so Taiwan has a fair tax situation. 

daalseth

aestival said:

DAalseth said:

Geez, what a bunch of whiners. They knew what things looked like going in. Maybe they thought if they stamped their foot and cried enough that the government would fold like the State of Wisconsin did. Dudes, you sighed a contract, hold up your end or pay the penalty. You don’t want to be double taxed? Talk to the government of Taiwan. 

As far as their bi*ching about how Americans don’t work hard enough. We may not work as hard as you’d like but you see your employees as replaceable, disposable pieces that can be used up and thrown away. In the west we put a higher value on the welfare of our fellow citizens. Once again you knew this going in, so shut up or GTFO. 

Taiwan is not recognized as a country because of Chinese pressure, the same Chinese pressure that has Taiwan under imminent threat of invasion. But by all means go off on some cultural supremacist rant if you feel the need to share your complete lack of empathy for the people of Taiwan.

I have a huge amount of empathy for the people of Taiwan. They are in a very bad position with few options. Xi is only making things harder for them so I care deeply about the PEOPLE of Taiwan.
I however have no sympathy for the whining jerks that run TSMC. They have tried to pull this s*** everywhere they have built plants. Sign a contract, then complain about the terms in order to get concessions after the fact. They may make great chips, but the management is horrible.

mac_dog

DAalseth said:

Geez, what a bunch of whiners. They knew what things looked like going in. Maybe they thought if they stamped their foot and cried enough that the government would fold like the State of Wisconsin did. Dudes, you sighed a contract, hold up your end or pay the penalty. You don’t want to be double taxed? Talk to the government of Taiwan. 

As far as their bi*ching about how Americans don’t work hard enough. We may not work as hard as you’d like but you see your employees as replaceable, disposable pieces that can be used up and thrown away. In the west we put a higher value on the welfare of our fellow citizens. Once again you knew this going in, so shut up or GTFO. 

Doesn’t seem unreasonable. You’ll probably complain about apple & the democrats when the deal falls through, whining about production & jobs. I like how you think we put a higher value on our welfare here in the states when no one has more contempt for the American worker than the American businessman. And, they’re not even here, so GTFO doesn’t apply. You’re so stuck in your anger, you don’t know wtf you’re talking about. Stop YOUR whining and let it play out the way it will. You have no control over it. 

madbum

I am independent voter and voted for Biden last
time . But I have to say, Democrats and Biden people are not very good at making deals and being pro business .

the Foxconn deal is falling through in Wisconsin with same issues under Democrat Governor .


These people have to understand, to lure a world leading company like Taiwan Semi, you have to give incentives. 

THEY DON’T HAVE TO CHOSE USA! Europe and India wants them too! So does Japan!

edited April 2023

madbum

DAalseth said:

aestival said:

DAalseth said:

Geez, what a bunch of whiners. They knew what things looked like going in. Maybe they thought if they stamped their foot and cried enough that the government would fold like the State of Wisconsin did. Dudes, you sighed a contract, hold up your end or pay the penalty. You don’t want to be double taxed? Talk to the government of Taiwan. 

As far as their bi*ching about how Americans don’t work hard enough. We may not work as hard as you’d like but you see your employees as replaceable, disposable pieces that can be used up and thrown away. In the west we put a higher value on the welfare of our fellow citizens. Once again you knew this going in, so shut up or GTFO. 

Taiwan is not recognized as a country because of Chinese pressure, the same Chinese pressure that has Taiwan under imminent threat of invasion. But by all means go off on some cultural supremacist rant if you feel the need to share your complete lack of empathy for the people of Taiwan.

I have a huge amount of empathy for the people of Taiwan. They are in a very bad position with few options. Xi is only making things harder for them so I care deeply about the PEOPLE of Taiwan.
I however have no sympathy for the whining jerks that run TSMC. They have tried to pull this s*** everywhere they have built plants. Sign a contract, then complain about the terms in order to get concessions after the fact. They may make great chips, but the management is horrible.

You need to read the fine print. It’s Biden that is changing the terms that TSMC agreed to under Trump and not other way around. Same issue with Foxconn in Wisconsin. TSMC are not the ones changing the terms 

mikethemartian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpE_xMRiCLE

madbum

mikethemartian said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpE_xMRiCLE

That is exactly what happened. TSMC is not at fault here. I work with Taiwanese people and they are trust worthy and will abide by any deal they sign. They are not the issue here, sleepy joe is 

waveparticle

DAalseth said:

aestival said:

DAalseth said:

Geez, what a bunch of whiners. They knew what things looked like going in. Maybe they thought if they stamped their foot and cried enough that the government would fold like the State of Wisconsin did. Dudes, you sighed a contract, hold up your end or pay the penalty. You don’t want to be double taxed? Talk to the government of Taiwan. 

As far as their bi*ching about how Americans don’t work hard enough. We may not work as hard as you’d like but you see your employees as replaceable, disposable pieces that can be used up and thrown away. In the west we put a higher value on the welfare of our fellow citizens. Once again you knew this going in, so shut up or GTFO. 

Taiwan is not recognized as a country because of Chinese pressure, the same Chinese pressure that has Taiwan under imminent threat of invasion. But by all means go off on some cultural supremacist rant if you feel the need to share your complete lack of empathy for the people of Taiwan.

I have a huge amount of empathy for the people of Taiwan. They are in a very bad position with few options. Xi is only making things harder for them so I care deeply about the PEOPLE of Taiwan.
I however have no sympathy for the whining jerks that run TSMC. They have tried to pull this s*** everywhere they have built plants. Sign a contract, then complain about the terms in order to get concessions after the fact. They may make great chips, but the management is horrible.

Taiwan has trade barriers agains mainland China. So Xi is making things harder for Taiwan to make money from mainland China? LOL

waveparticle

avon b7 said:

Just yesterday, there were reports claiming that TSMC had massively cut orders for EUV machines from ASML.

There is a possibility that could imply less new plants (as opposed to expansion of existing plants or hardware renewal). 

There is news that TSMC is cutting back on chip plant expansion in Taiwan. 

ronn

They're receiving at least $6-7B and hope to get upto $15B. Get with the program or leave those billions on the table. It's not unreasonable to have TSMC adhere to the rules given their history in Wisconsin.

The Commerce Department said it needs to make sure companies are using their taxpayer grants as promised and says it will take the money back if they fail to comply with award terms.

They understand the rules. They just don't like following the rules. 

larryjw

Since Reagan, the super greedy c-suite have been outsourcing product creation to other countries. The last I heard, the US cannot produce clothes, silverware, chips, hospital fluid bags, most critical care cart drugs, many vaccines. The whole c-suite logic was to transform US companies into shell corporations solely for the c-suite suits to pocket all the money earned. They buy yachts, mansions and politicians. 

The US has lost 2 generations of productive workers while blaming China and other "eastern" countries of "taking our jobs". 

No, China and the other countries of doing the work Americans can no longer do. We no longer even have older workers who can mentor younger workers. And it's the US's fault -- no one else is to blame. The government didn't control the Corporations and let them rape the taxpayers for the c-suite sole benefit, leaving the US with little in the way of productive capacity. We've got a lot people getting rich off of money manipulation, but few doing anything useful. 

There's no quick fix for this collapse. The US doesn't have the infrastructure to rebuild.

waveparticle

larryjw said:

Since Reagan, the super greedy c-suite have been outsourcing product creation to other countries. The last I heard, the US cannot produce clothes, silverware, chips, hospital fluid bags, most critical care cart drugs, many vaccines. The whole c-suite logic was to transform US companies into shell corporations solely for the c-suite suits to pocket all the money earned. They buy yachts, mansions and politicians. 

The US has lost 2 generations of productive workers while blaming China and other "eastern" countries of "taking our jobs". 

No, China and the other countries of doing the work Americans can no longer do. We no longer even have older workers who can mentor younger workers. And it's the US's fault -- no one else is to blame. The government didn't control the Corporations and let them rape the taxpayers for the c-suite sole benefit, leaving the US with little in the way of productive capacity. We've got a lot people getting rich off of money manipulation, but few doing anything useful. 

There's no quick fix for this collapse. The US doesn't have the infrastructure to rebuild.

This is one side of the story. The US government is siding with the workers. The cost of labor is increasing. It is making corporations difficult to make profit. 

ajohn

ronn said:

They're receiving at least $6-7B and hope to get upto $15B. Get with the program or leave those billions on the table. It's not unreasonable to have TSMC adhere to the rules given their history in Wisconsin.

The Commerce Department said it needs to make sure companies are using their taxpayer grants as promised and says it will take the money back if they fail to comply with award terms.

They understand the rules. They just don't like following the rules. 

@ronn Might help to get your facts straight. You’re confusing TSMC with Foxconn in Wisconsin, but nice try…

entropys

9secondkox2 said:

The obvious solution is to fix the oversight so Taiwan has a fair tax situation. 

The most obvious is to recognise Taiwan as an independent, democratic nation. That would help with the tax issue too.

it is embarrassing how badly the west has treated Taiwan, all not to offend China.

tmay

avon b7 said:
Just yesterday, there were reports claiming that TSMC had massively cut orders for EUV machines from ASML.
There is a possibility that could imply less new plants (as opposed to expansion of existing plants or hardware renewal). 

While true (and those orders are likely delayed vs canceled) it is also about China, and other authoritarian governments, being restricted from purchase of advanced semiconductors manufactured in the West. That there is an ongoing slowdown in the global economy is exacerbating the slowdown in semiconductors.

https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/archives/2022/09/08/2003784929

In addition, the US government has instructed Nvidia and AMD not to supply their high-end graphics processing units to China, a move which also hurt demand, the report said.

Of note, the West will continue bans on DUV and EUV machines, other various semiconductor manufacturing technologies, operating consumables, and software, and semiconductors themselves, with a goal to restrict China's access to advanced technology that are dual use, civilian and military. 

That is prudent policy by the West.

edited April 2023

ronn

ajohn said:

ronn said:

They're receiving at least $6-7B and hope to get upto $15B. Get with the program or leave those billions on the table. It's not unreasonable to have TSMC adhere to the rules given their history in Wisconsin.

The Commerce Department said it needs to make sure companies are using their taxpayer grants as promised and says it will take the money back if they fail to comply with award terms.

They understand the rules. They just don't like following the rules. 

@ronn Might help to get your facts straight. You’re confusing TSMC with Foxconn in Wisconsin, but nice try…

Zoinks!! You're absolutely right. I mixed up the two... again. Still stand by TSMC complying with the terms of the agreement they willingly entered with the US. They're getting a ton of money and they simply have to open up the books since Uncle Sam is opening up the wallet.

waveparticle

entropys said:

9secondkox2 said:

The obvious solution is to fix the oversight so Taiwan has a fair tax situation. 

The most obvious is to recognise Taiwan as an independent, democratic nation. That would help with the tax issue too.

it is embarrassing how badly the west has treated Taiwan, all not to offend China.

This is not true. Taiwan has been treated very well by US. Taiwan has access to US technology, trade for decades. The only other nation that was treated better is South Korea.