Apple expected to invest in Arm ahead of possible September IPO

Posted:
in AAPL Investors

The SoftBank-owned Arm is expected to receive considerable investment from Apple and other chip companies as part of its IPO, a report claims, with the introduction to the market now thought to occur in mid-September.




SoftBank has been eyeing an IPO for chip design unit Arm for quite some time, but it now seems that the initial public offering will be happening in the fall. As part of that IPO, Apple and other major chip firms may want a piece of the action.

According to sources of Nikkei, SoftBank plans to float Arm on Nasdaq in September, with expectations that the deal could be worth more than $60 billion. SoftBank will make the IPO official with an application to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission later in August, followed by gaining approval from Nasdaq itself.

Currently, SoftBank Group controls approximately 75% of Arm shares, with the remaining 25% held by the SoftBank Vision Fund, with the latter intending to sell 10% to 15% of its shares on the market.

As part of the IPO, Arm is apparently hoping major chip producers will become medium to long-term shareholders, owning a few percent of the stock. This list is said to include Apple, Samsung Electronics, Nvidia, and Intel.

While purchasing the shares could be viewed as a prudent investment, the chip-maker holdings should help stabilize the stock price at the time of its listing. Owning some shares could also give the companies a little more say over how Arm's management controls the company and its circuit designs.

Read on AppleInsider

«1

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 32

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 ߘꩦlt;/p>

    Was it not S Jobs who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    edited August 2023 watto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 32
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,667member
    It makes sense to participate as ARM still has legs  :) but RISC-V is picking up steam and finding evermore market opportunities. 
  • Reply 3 of 32
    NYC362NYC362 Posts: 79member
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 😊)

    Was it not S Job who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    I can't find anything online about Steve Jobs/Apple having owned ARM in the past.  ARM stands for Advanced RISC Machine.  
    lorca2770watto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 32
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,667member
    NYC362 said:
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 😊)

    Was it not S Job who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    I can't find anything online about Steve Jobs/Apple having owned ARM in the past.  ARM stands for Advanced RISC Machine.  
    Apple owned shares in ARM. Prior to that it was involved in Acorn Computer. 

    It sold off a chunk of its ARM shares around 20 years ago. 
    muthuk_vanalingamFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 5 of 32
    williamhwilliamh Posts: 1,033member
    avon b7 said:
    NYC362 said:
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 😊)

    Was it not S Job who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    I can't find anything online about Steve Jobs/Apple having owned ARM in the past.  ARM stands for Advanced RISC Machine.  
    Apple owned shares in ARM. Prior to that it was involved in Acorn Computer. 

    It sold off a chunk of its ARM shares around 20 years ago. 
    NYC362 is correct and it was a large part of ARM.  Apple didn't sell because of any problem with ARM (they used the chips since the Newton, if not earlier) but rather because the company needed the cash.
    StrangeDaysFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 32
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    williamh said:
    avon b7 said:
    NYC362 said:
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 😊)

    Was it not S Job who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    I can't find anything online about Steve Jobs/Apple having owned ARM in the past.  ARM stands for Advanced RISC Machine.  
    Apple owned shares in ARM. Prior to that it was involved in Acorn Computer. 

    It sold off a chunk of its ARM shares around 20 years ago. 
    NYC362 is correct and it was a large part of ARM.  Apple didn't sell because of any problem with ARM (they used the chips since the Newton, if not earlier) but rather because the company needed the cash.
    "Apple was a major investor in ARM when it was called Advanced RISC Machines Ltd. Apple paid $3 million to own 43% of the company"
    FileMakerFeller
  • Reply 7 of 32
    thamtham Posts: 3member
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 ߘꩦlt;/p>

    Was it not S Jobs who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    Easy mistake.  The answer is no.  You are getting AIM mixed up with ARM.   AIM (Apple-IBM-Motorola) partnered to design the PowerPC chip.  

    ARM is/was a British company.  In fact, it started as a contest on show on BBC (or was it iTV) in the late 70s on how to make a low powered computer chip.

    Personally, I think Apple will eventually end up switching to RISC-V chip.  In fact, if they're not already developing a chip...they are...for sure.  10 years, they will come out with their own design.
    JapheyFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 32
    "Apple and other major chip firms may want a piece of the action."


    StrangeDaysFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 32
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,849member
    williamh said:
    avon b7 said:
    NYC362 said:
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 ߘꩦlt;/p>

    Was it not S Job who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    I can't find anything online about Steve Jobs/Apple having owned ARM in the past.  ARM stands for Advanced RISC Machine.  
    Apple owned shares in ARM. Prior to that it was involved in Acorn Computer. 

    It sold off a chunk of its ARM shares around 20 years ago. 
    NYC362 is correct and it was a large part of ARM.  Apple didn't sell because of any problem with ARM (they used the chips since the Newton, if not earlier) but rather because the company needed the cash.

    But they probably did not sell any of the patents, that they created when they owned part of the ARM triplets. I don’t think the processor that Apple used in the Newton was an off the shelf chip.

    In short, I don’t think Apple sold off the intellectual property (patents) that led to the creation of that chip that was used in the Newton or the Newton itself, that was something they had to come up with from the ground up and I don’t think it left Cupertino.

    None of Apples, A series, M series, or R1 chip designs are going to be folded back into Arm, Google, Amazon, Microsoft, or Samsung won’t see any benefit to anything Apple has done, and that includes the Newton and that chip that was designed for it originally. Using Arm’s tech allows you to fork your own chip (SOC), if you desire to do so assuming you actually have the capability in house to do so, most of the companies buy the base level designs, and do not have that capability beyond making minor changes.

    Side note, Qualcomm is the closest to Apple by virtue of their acquisition of NUVIA (and the three engineers who used to work for Apple), and they haven’t released their chip yet with the new boys in control from the ground up, they are still working on it?

    https://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/john_sculley_the_full_transcript_part2/
    edited August 2023 FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 32
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,328member
    tham said:
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 ߘꩦlt;/p>

    Was it not S Jobs who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    Easy mistake.  The answer is no.  You are getting AIM mixed up with ARM.   AIM (Apple-IBM-Motorola) partnered to design the PowerPC chip.  

    ARM is/was a British company.  In fact, it started as a contest on show on BBC (or was it iTV) in the late 70s on how to make a low powered computer chip.

    Personally, I think Apple will eventually end up switching to RISC-V chip.  In fact, if they're not already developing a chip...they are...for sure.  10 years, they will come out with their own design.
    I don't see Apple doing more than dabbling in RISC-V, at least as long as they have a Fab in TSMC that is building its leading edge on ARM architecture, supported by the design tools that currently favor ARM, and ARM architecture that steadily evolves.

    There is a movement to RISC-V, but it is primarily IoT, which sets a low bar of entry, and various arcane compute systems that aren't mainstream. Mostly though, it is popular with academics, or regions that are not allowed leading edge ARM licenses or design tools. There isn't any performance or technical advantage to RISC-V, and open source is irrelevant to players such as AMD, Nvidia, Qualcomm, and of course, Apple.
    edited August 2023 williamlondonFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 32
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,667member
    tmay said:
    tham said:
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 ߘꩦlt;/p>

    Was it not S Jobs who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    Easy mistake.  The answer is no.  You are getting AIM mixed up with ARM.   AIM (Apple-IBM-Motorola) partnered to design the PowerPC chip.  

    ARM is/was a British company.  In fact, it started as a contest on show on BBC (or was it iTV) in the late 70s on how to make a low powered computer chip.

    Personally, I think Apple will eventually end up switching to RISC-V chip.  In fact, if they're not already developing a chip...they are...for sure.  10 years, they will come out with their own design.
    I don't see Apple doing more than dabbling in RISC-V, at least as long as they have a Fab in TSMC that is building its leading edge on ARM architecture, supported by the design tools that currently favor ARM, and ARM architecture that steadily evolves.

    There is a movement to RISC-V, but it is primarily IoT, which sets a low bar of entry, and various arcane compute systems that aren't mainstream. Mostly though, it is popular with academics, or regions that are not allowed leading edge ARM licenses or design tools. There isn't any performance or technical advantage to RISC-V, and open source is irrelevant to players such as AMD, Nvidia, Qualcomm, and of course, Apple.
    I think you are underestimating how fast things are moving on the RISC-V front and the direction. 

    https://wccftech.com/jim-keller-tenstorrent-wants-to-compete-with-nvidia-ai-gpus-using-risc-v-based-ai-cpus/


  • Reply 12 of 32
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 2,673member
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 ߘꩦlt;/p>

    Was it not S Jobs who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.


    Originally ARM stood for the Acorn RISC Machine. In the late 80's when Apple started the development of the Newton, they needed an extremely low power, but powerful CPU design. They partnered with Acorn Computers and VLSI Logic to form ARM Holdings, Ltd. The CPU produced from this partnership became known as Advanced RISC Machine. And it was this design that went on to become the basis of the modern design used today.

    Steve Jobs sold off Apple's share in ARM Holdings after he axed the Newton project, along with many other products and projects to get Apple back on track and focus on their core competencies. (Although it was rumored that, out of spite, Steve Jobs basically tore down everything John Scully built.)

    I believe what you're talking about with Microsoft, is their infamous use of spreading F.U.D. throughout the industry to keep clients from buying a competitors product. They would promise that they were working on something similar to a competitors product and it would be released "soon". Hell, even Windows 95 was advertised as "More Mac Like". Most of MS's competition basically floundered or went out of business from these business "practices". They were also infamous for their "Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish" practices to co-op competing standards and technologies.
    muthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondonFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 32
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 2,673member
    tham said:
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 ߘꩦlt;/p>

    Was it not S Jobs who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    Easy mistake.  The answer is no.  You are getting AIM mixed up with ARM.   AIM (Apple-IBM-Motorola) partnered to design the PowerPC chip.  

    ARM is/was a British company.  In fact, it started as a contest on show on BBC (or was it iTV) in the late 70s on how to make a low powered computer chip.

    Personally, I think Apple will eventually end up switching to RISC-V chip.  In fact, if they're not already developing a chip...they are...for sure.  10 years, they will come out with their own design.

    Yes, AIM was a partnership to create a next generation CPU for Macs - It was a design based off of IBM's POWER architecture.

    But ARM as it is known today is not Acorn Computers. It is Arm Holdings which is a company formed by Acorn, Apple and VLSI Technologies in the late 80's. It's designed was based off of Acorn's ARM and was originally designed for the Apple Newton.

    In both cases, while the original IP was not Apple, they played a huge part in the direction the design for both went as they were going to be the major customer for both ARM and PowerPC.
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 32
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,328member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    tham said:
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 ߘꩦlt;/p>

    Was it not S Jobs who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    Easy mistake.  The answer is no.  You are getting AIM mixed up with ARM.   AIM (Apple-IBM-Motorola) partnered to design the PowerPC chip.  

    ARM is/was a British company.  In fact, it started as a contest on show on BBC (or was it iTV) in the late 70s on how to make a low powered computer chip.

    Personally, I think Apple will eventually end up switching to RISC-V chip.  In fact, if they're not already developing a chip...they are...for sure.  10 years, they will come out with their own design.
    I don't see Apple doing more than dabbling in RISC-V, at least as long as they have a Fab in TSMC that is building its leading edge on ARM architecture, supported by the design tools that currently favor ARM, and ARM architecture that steadily evolves.

    There is a movement to RISC-V, but it is primarily IoT, which sets a low bar of entry, and various arcane compute systems that aren't mainstream. Mostly though, it is popular with academics, or regions that are not allowed leading edge ARM licenses or design tools. There isn't any performance or technical advantage to RISC-V, and open source is irrelevant to players such as AMD, Nvidia, Qualcomm, and of course, Apple.
    I think you are underestimating how fast things are moving on the RISC-V front and the direction. 

    https://wccftech.com/jim-keller-tenstorrent-wants-to-compete-with-nvidia-ai-gpus-using-risc-v-based-ai-cpus/


    "various arcane compute systems that aren't mainstream"

    If Jim Keller can create an AI CPU architecture with RISC-V, and take that mainstream, then kudos to him. So then the question becomes, would Nvidia be able develop a competitor AI CPU with ARM architecture, or would they too go down the RISC-V path.

    Remember, Nvidia is a $1.1 T company, so virtually infinite resources at their disposal, and the ARM ecosystem is very mature and robust compared to RISC-V.


    williamlondon
  • Reply 15 of 32
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,667member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    tham said:
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 ߘꩦlt;/p>

    Was it not S Jobs who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    Easy mistake.  The answer is no.  You are getting AIM mixed up with ARM.   AIM (Apple-IBM-Motorola) partnered to design the PowerPC chip.  

    ARM is/was a British company.  In fact, it started as a contest on show on BBC (or was it iTV) in the late 70s on how to make a low powered computer chip.

    Personally, I think Apple will eventually end up switching to RISC-V chip.  In fact, if they're not already developing a chip...they are...for sure.  10 years, they will come out with their own design.
    I don't see Apple doing more than dabbling in RISC-V, at least as long as they have a Fab in TSMC that is building its leading edge on ARM architecture, supported by the design tools that currently favor ARM, and ARM architecture that steadily evolves.

    There is a movement to RISC-V, but it is primarily IoT, which sets a low bar of entry, and various arcane compute systems that aren't mainstream. Mostly though, it is popular with academics, or regions that are not allowed leading edge ARM licenses or design tools. There isn't any performance or technical advantage to RISC-V, and open source is irrelevant to players such as AMD, Nvidia, Qualcomm, and of course, Apple.
    I think you are underestimating how fast things are moving on the RISC-V front and the direction. 

    https://wccftech.com/jim-keller-tenstorrent-wants-to-compete-with-nvidia-ai-gpus-using-risc-v-based-ai-cpus/


    "various arcane compute systems that aren't mainstream"

    If Jim Keller can create an AI CPU architecture with RISC-V, and take that mainstream, then kudos to him. So then the question becomes, would Nvidia be able develop a competitor AI CPU with ARM architecture, or would they too go down the RISC-V path.

    Remember, Nvidia is a $1.1 T company, so virtually infinite resources at their disposal, and the ARM ecosystem is very mature and robust compared to RISC-V.


    Everyone is making breakthroughs in efficiencies of one sort or another. 

    https://www.pcmag.com/news/nvidia-claims-breakthrough-in-chip-production-speed

    It will come down to many factors and cost is obviously one of them, be it direct or indirect. 

    It's not a case of this or that either. Systems can be mixed:

    https://semiengineering.com/risc-v-open-platform-for-next-gen-automotive-ecus-eth-zurich-huawei/

    Things have changed a lot for RISC-V in the last five years. It is still being used for IoT, microcontrollers etc but more and more designs and ideas are coming to market and I wouldn't bet anything against another big leap five years from now. 

    Here’s another AI design from a couple of years ago:

    https://spectrum.ieee.org/risc-v-ai

    The HPC goals of the EU are tied in with RISC-V too. 

    https://www.european-processor-initiative.eu/accelerator/
    edited August 2023 FileMakerFeller
  • Reply 16 of 32
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,328member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    tham said:
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 ߘꩦlt;/p>

    Was it not S Jobs who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    Easy mistake.  The answer is no.  You are getting AIM mixed up with ARM.   AIM (Apple-IBM-Motorola) partnered to design the PowerPC chip.  

    ARM is/was a British company.  In fact, it started as a contest on show on BBC (or was it iTV) in the late 70s on how to make a low powered computer chip.

    Personally, I think Apple will eventually end up switching to RISC-V chip.  In fact, if they're not already developing a chip...they are...for sure.  10 years, they will come out with their own design.
    I don't see Apple doing more than dabbling in RISC-V, at least as long as they have a Fab in TSMC that is building its leading edge on ARM architecture, supported by the design tools that currently favor ARM, and ARM architecture that steadily evolves.

    There is a movement to RISC-V, but it is primarily IoT, which sets a low bar of entry, and various arcane compute systems that aren't mainstream. Mostly though, it is popular with academics, or regions that are not allowed leading edge ARM licenses or design tools. There isn't any performance or technical advantage to RISC-V, and open source is irrelevant to players such as AMD, Nvidia, Qualcomm, and of course, Apple.
    I think you are underestimating how fast things are moving on the RISC-V front and the direction. 

    https://wccftech.com/jim-keller-tenstorrent-wants-to-compete-with-nvidia-ai-gpus-using-risc-v-based-ai-cpus/


    "various arcane compute systems that aren't mainstream"

    If Jim Keller can create an AI CPU architecture with RISC-V, and take that mainstream, then kudos to him. So then the question becomes, would Nvidia be able develop a competitor AI CPU with ARM architecture, or would they too go down the RISC-V path.

    Remember, Nvidia is a $1.1 T company, so virtually infinite resources at their disposal, and the ARM ecosystem is very mature and robust compared to RISC-V.


    Everyone is making breakthroughs in efficiencies of one sort or another. 

    https://www.pcmag.com/news/nvidia-claims-breakthrough-in-chip-production-speed

    It will come down to many factors and cost is obviously one of them, be it direct or indirect. 

    It's not a case of this or that either. Systems can be mixed:

    https://semiengineering.com/risc-v-open-platform-for-next-gen-automotive-ecus-eth-zurich-huawei/

    Things have changed a lot for RISC-V in the last five years. It is still being used for IoT, microcontrollers etc but more and more designs and ideas are coming to market and I wouldn't bet anything against another big leap five years from now. 

    Here’s another AI design from a couple of years ago:

    https://spectrum.ieee.org/risc-v-ai

    The HPC goals of the EU are tied in with RISC-V too. 

    https://www.european-processor-initiative.eu/accelerator/
    I'm fine with you hawking RISC-V, but realistically, ARM isn't going to be displaced very rapidly, if at all, in the marketplace when companies that are perfectly fine with ARM are generating the bulk of revenue for TSMC. Both Intel and Samsung would have that opportunity as well with RISC-V, should they decide to compete in the consumer market, but I'm not seeing that either.

    Of course, Jim Keller might change that equation, but even then, there doesn't seem to be any technical reason that ARM with ongoing evolution, can't compete, so best watch Nvidia on that front.
    williamlondonFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 32
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,667member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    tham said:
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 ߘꩦlt;/p>

    Was it not S Jobs who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    Easy mistake.  The answer is no.  You are getting AIM mixed up with ARM.   AIM (Apple-IBM-Motorola) partnered to design the PowerPC chip.  

    ARM is/was a British company.  In fact, it started as a contest on show on BBC (or was it iTV) in the late 70s on how to make a low powered computer chip.

    Personally, I think Apple will eventually end up switching to RISC-V chip.  In fact, if they're not already developing a chip...they are...for sure.  10 years, they will come out with their own design.
    I don't see Apple doing more than dabbling in RISC-V, at least as long as they have a Fab in TSMC that is building its leading edge on ARM architecture, supported by the design tools that currently favor ARM, and ARM architecture that steadily evolves.

    There is a movement to RISC-V, but it is primarily IoT, which sets a low bar of entry, and various arcane compute systems that aren't mainstream. Mostly though, it is popular with academics, or regions that are not allowed leading edge ARM licenses or design tools. There isn't any performance or technical advantage to RISC-V, and open source is irrelevant to players such as AMD, Nvidia, Qualcomm, and of course, Apple.
    I think you are underestimating how fast things are moving on the RISC-V front and the direction. 

    https://wccftech.com/jim-keller-tenstorrent-wants-to-compete-with-nvidia-ai-gpus-using-risc-v-based-ai-cpus/


    "various arcane compute systems that aren't mainstream"

    If Jim Keller can create an AI CPU architecture with RISC-V, and take that mainstream, then kudos to him. So then the question becomes, would Nvidia be able develop a competitor AI CPU with ARM architecture, or would they too go down the RISC-V path.

    Remember, Nvidia is a $1.1 T company, so virtually infinite resources at their disposal, and the ARM ecosystem is very mature and robust compared to RISC-V.


    Everyone is making breakthroughs in efficiencies of one sort or another. 

    https://www.pcmag.com/news/nvidia-claims-breakthrough-in-chip-production-speed

    It will come down to many factors and cost is obviously one of them, be it direct or indirect. 

    It's not a case of this or that either. Systems can be mixed:

    https://semiengineering.com/risc-v-open-platform-for-next-gen-automotive-ecus-eth-zurich-huawei/

    Things have changed a lot for RISC-V in the last five years. It is still being used for IoT, microcontrollers etc but more and more designs and ideas are coming to market and I wouldn't bet anything against another big leap five years from now. 

    Here’s another AI design from a couple of years ago:

    https://spectrum.ieee.org/risc-v-ai

    The HPC goals of the EU are tied in with RISC-V too. 

    https://www.european-processor-initiative.eu/accelerator/
    I'm fine with you hawking RISC-V, but realistically, ARM isn't going to be displaced very rapidly, if at all, in the marketplace when companies that are perfectly fine with ARM are generating the bulk of revenue for TSMC. Both Intel and Samsung would have that opportunity as well with RISC-V, should they decide to compete in the consumer market, but I'm not seeing that either.

    Of course, Jim Keller might change that equation, but even then, there doesn't seem to be any technical reason that ARM with ongoing evolution, can't compete, so best watch Nvidia on that front.
    Well, I wasn't hawking on about anything. Simply pointing out a different reality to the one you painted. I didn't even go into your claim that open source is irrelevant to the players you mentioned.

    Cough, Darwin, cough!

    Nor the impact of weaponisation of IP by the US government. 

    RISC-V is growing at an unprecedented rate. 

    https://linuxfoundation.eu/newsroom/rise-project-launches-to-accelerate-development-of-risc-v

    Look at the names making up the consortium. 

    edited August 2023
  • Reply 18 of 32
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,860member
    mjtomlin said:

    I believe what you're talking about with Microsoft, is their infamous use of spreading F.U.D. throughout the industry to keep clients from buying a competitors product. 
    Hey, credit where credit is due: IBM invented FUD.
    williamlondonFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 19 of 32
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    danox said:
    williamh said:
    avon b7 said:
    NYC362 said:
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 ߘꩦlt;/p>

    Was it not S Job who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    I can't find anything online about Steve Jobs/Apple having owned ARM in the past.  ARM stands for Advanced RISC Machine.  
    Apple owned shares in ARM. Prior to that it was involved in Acorn Computer. 

    It sold off a chunk of its ARM shares around 20 years ago. 
    NYC362 is correct and it was a large part of ARM.  Apple didn't sell because of any problem with ARM (they used the chips since the Newton, if not earlier) but rather because the company needed the cash.

    But they probably did not sell any of the patents, that they created when they owned part of the ARM triplets. I don’t think the processor that Apple used in the Newton was an off the shelf chip.

    In short, I don’t think Apple sold off the intellectual property (patents) that led to the creation of that chip that was used in the Newton or the Newton itself...
    What's the lifespan of patent protection? :) 
  • Reply 20 of 32
    gatorguy said:
    danox said:
    williamh said:
    avon b7 said:
    NYC362 said:
    lorca2770 said:

    Please, correct me.
    I have been following Apple since 1984 (Mac 128 ߘꩦlt;/p>

    Was it not S Job who at some point, during the tough times, sold ARM (since it was Apple’s company)? I think I understood it was Apple Reduced Memory. It was one of those developments that were undermined by Microsoft with the permanent: “stop the presses we are coming with something better”. So many Apple developments were drowned by, at the time, all powerful MS.
    Please advise.

    I can't find anything online about Steve Jobs/Apple having owned ARM in the past.  ARM stands for Advanced RISC Machine.  
    Apple owned shares in ARM. Prior to that it was involved in Acorn Computer. 

    It sold off a chunk of its ARM shares around 20 years ago. 
    NYC362 is correct and it was a large part of ARM.  Apple didn't sell because of any problem with ARM (they used the chips since the Newton, if not earlier) but rather because the company needed the cash.

    But they probably did not sell any of the patents, that they created when they owned part of the ARM triplets. I don’t think the processor that Apple used in the Newton was an off the shelf chip.

    In short, I don’t think Apple sold off the intellectual property (patents) that led to the creation of that chip that was used in the Newton or the Newton itself...
    What's the lifespan of patent protection? :) 
    Longer than the lifespan of the Newton. :wink:
    watto_cobra
Sign In or Register to comment.