Europe asks if Digital Markets Act should apply to iMessage

AppleInsider

EU officials are asking rivals of the tech giants whether Apple's iMessage should be subjected to the rules of the Digital Markets Act, to help determine the next course of action for the regulators.

European flags

The European Union's Digital Markets Act (DMA) is a set of rules specifically targeting the tech giants, including Apple, Amazon, Google, and others. The rules aim to level the playing field for other companies, but officials are still trying to determine what they should do with the new powers.

According to Reuters questionnaires were sent out by the European Commission, asking for rivals and users to rate how important Apple's iMessage and three services of Microsoft's are compared to competitors. They were also asked if there were specific reasons that business users relied on the various services, and how many users used them.

The European Commission started a probe into iMessage, as well as Microsoft's Bing, Edge, and Microsoft Advertising in September, to determine whether they need to be operated within the rules of the DMA.

After arguing iMessage wasn't big enough to count as a gatekeeper service in the EU, Apple managed to get its messaging app removed from compliance with the DMA in September. However, it seems that the European Commission is keen to determine whether those rules should apply at all.

The investigation is expected to run for another five months.

Read on AppleInsider

iloveapplegear

What a stupid decision . Off course al apple competitors are going to say yet.

spheric

iloveapplegear said:

What a stupid decision . Off course al apple competitors are going to say yet.

So if you’re going to decide how to deal with a potential threat to free markets, you shouldn’t hear what the other players in the market have to say about it? 

The competitors will have opinions, and they will have to explain and justify them. They might make good arguments that the Commission has not yet taken into account, since they might involve business data points. 

Remember that — as always — this legislation does not apply just to Apple, but to ALL players. They might bring arguments that let Apple off the hook, if it helps their own case. 

foregoneconclusion

AppleInsider said: After arguing iMessage wasn't big enough to count as a gatekeeper service in the EU, Apple managed to get its messaging app removed from compliance with the DMA in September. However, it seems that the European Commission is keen to determine whether those rules should apply at all. 

The EU is already moving the goalposts on the "gatekeeper" thing. 

honkers

foregoneconclusion said:

AppleInsider said: After arguing iMessage wasn't big enough to count as a gatekeeper service in the EU, Apple managed to get its messaging app removed from compliance with the DMA in September. However, it seems that the European Commission is keen to determine whether those rules should apply at all. 

The EU is already moving the goalposts on the "gatekeeper" thing. 

What goalpost has moved?

The EU never said that iMessage wouldn't ever be subject to the regulation, they just removed it from the initial gatekeeper list pending investigation.

mayfly

The EU should focus on higher priority issues. Guess they forgot there's a war on their border. Oh wait a second: there's TWO wars on their borders. Winter is coming, with sanctions on the Russian oil and gas they rely on to keep from freezing to death. Inflation is worse than it is here. France, England and Germany were sent reeling from record heat waves and flooding, killing thousands. Right wing extremist authoritarianism is spreading like wildfires, driven by anti-immigrant fervor.

And their knickers are in a knot about iMessage?

suddenly newton

I've been told that nobody uses iMessage outside of the US and Japan. WeChat dominates in China, and WhatsApp dominates everywhere else.

geeaye

suddenly newton said:

I've been told that nobody uses iMessage outside of the US and Japan. WeChat dominates in China, and WhatsApp dominates everywhere else.

Someone "told you" then telling the world is sure way better than checking first before posting. There are a whole bunch of other countries, including where I am in Australia, that use it extensively.

danox

suddenly newton said:

I've been told that nobody uses iMessage outside of the US and Japan. WeChat dominates in China, and WhatsApp dominates everywhere else.

But iMessage is on the most profitable mobile systems, which is why it won’t be left alone, also, since Apple designs both hardware and software, the user experience can be better than the rest, even though iMessage was originally conceived because the other messaging programs at the time couldn’t be bothered to support Apple devices, a similar scenario exists in the AAA gaming market which currently does not support Apple devices at all or very little, if Apple rows up its sleeves again and is able to change that around, Apple will be labeled as a gatekeeper in AAA games too. The goalposts will keep moving in any direction. The EU or Spotify wants to go.

edited October 2023

jkichline

There is no issue with free market dynamics when it comes to iMessage. You can choose what phone operating system you want to use and choose from a variety of messaging platforms. No one is forcing you to buy an iPhone. No one is forcing you to buy an Android. No one is forcing you to use the built-in messaging features either. The EU is just poking their regulations into business and innovation.

9secondkox2

spheric said:

iloveapplegear said:

What a stupid decision . Off course al apple competitors are going to say yet.

So if you’re going to decide how to deal with a potential threat to free markets, you shouldn’t hear what the other players in the market have to say about it? 

The competitors will have opinions, and they will have to explain and justify them. They might make good arguments that the Commission has not yet taken into account, since they might involve business data points. 

Remember that — as always — this legislation does not apply just to Apple, but to ALL players. They might bring arguments that let Apple off the hook, if it helps their own case. 

An app isn’t a threat. 

iMessage isn’t harming anyone, nor is it anticompetitive in any way. It’s just better than everyone else. And that’s a good thing. 

The EU: haters of American success a long time running. 

longfang

I’d argue that WhatsApp’s popularity is because iMessage doesn’t have android compatibility. That’s the only reason i have it. Too many people in my circle on android. 

avon b7

9secondkox2 said:

spheric said:

iloveapplegear said:

What a stupid decision . Off course al apple competitors are going to say yet.

So if you’re going to decide how to deal with a potential threat to free markets, you shouldn’t hear what the other players in the market have to say about it? 

The competitors will have opinions, and they will have to explain and justify them. They might make good arguments that the Commission has not yet taken into account, since they might involve business data points. 

Remember that — as always — this legislation does not apply just to Apple, but to ALL players. They might bring arguments that let Apple off the hook, if it helps their own case. 

An app isn’t a threat. 

iMessage isn’t harming anyone, nor is it anticompetitive in any way. It’s just better than everyone else. And that’s a good thing. 

The EU: haters of American success a long time running. 

Really? 

https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-confirms-imessage-locks-users-into-ios-and-putting-it-on-android-would-hurt-apple/

Is it now the only non-cross platform IM app on the market?

In this day and age, should messaging really be platform specific? 

And before you say it, SMS isn't the cross platform side of Messages. It's a completely different system. 

badmonk

mayfly said:

The EU should focus on higher priority issues. Guess they forgot there's a war on their border. Oh wait a second: there's TWO wars on their borders. Winter is coming, with sanctions on the Russian oil and gas they rely on to keep from freezing to death. Inflation is worse than it is here. France, England and Germany were sent reeling from record heat waves and flooding, killing thousands. Right wing extremist authoritarianism is spreading like wildfires, driven by anti-immigrant fervor.

And their knickers are in a knot about iMessage?



You also left out that the European automakers are about to be swamped by cheap Chinese EV imports and their automakers are going to be unable to compete against this tide.  The automotive industry in Europe is a big part of the EU economy.

The fact that they can’t see this coming is mind boggling.

foregoneconclusion

Honkers said:

foregoneconclusion said:

AppleInsider said: After arguing iMessage wasn't big enough to count as a gatekeeper service in the EU, Apple managed to get its messaging app removed from compliance with the DMA in September. However, it seems that the European Commission is keen to determine whether those rules should apply at all. 

The EU is already moving the goalposts on the "gatekeeper" thing. 

What goalpost has moved?

The EU never said that iMessage wouldn't ever be subject to the regulation, they just removed it from the initial gatekeeper list pending investigation.

The goalpost regarding what size of business should be considered a "gatekeeper". iMessage isn't big enough to qualify. So now the EU is entertaining the idea that messaging is somehow different from other digital markets and should have a different set of rules. 

strangedays

avon b7 said:

9secondkox2 said:

spheric said:

iloveapplegear said:

What a stupid decision . Off course al apple competitors are going to say yet.

So if you’re going to decide how to deal with a potential threat to free markets, you shouldn’t hear what the other players in the market have to say about it? 

The competitors will have opinions, and they will have to explain and justify them. They might make good arguments that the Commission has not yet taken into account, since they might involve business data points. 

Remember that — as always — this legislation does not apply just to Apple, but to ALL players. They might bring arguments that let Apple off the hook, if it helps their own case. 

An app isn’t a threat. 

iMessage isn’t harming anyone, nor is it anticompetitive in any way. It’s just better than everyone else. And that’s a good thing. 

The EU: haters of American success a long time running. 

Really? 

https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-confirms-imessage-locks-users-into-ios-and-putting-it-on-android-would-hurt-apple/

Is it now the only non-cross platform IM app on the market?

In this day and age, should messaging really be platform specific? 

And before you say it, SMS isn't the cross platform side of Messages. It's a completely different system. 

Of course it should, if that’s what the platform creator wants to do and that’s what their customers enjoy. 

Should Burger King be forced to offer Big Macs? Or can they continue to just offer their own product? Hmm. 

And yes, SMS is the cross platform side of the Messages app. Which protocols it uses is entirely irrelevant, it’s still the Messages app. 

edited October 2023

spheric

badmonk said:

mayfly said:

The EU should focus on higher priority issues. Guess they forgot there's a war on their border. Oh wait a second: there's TWO wars on their borders. Winter is coming, with sanctions on the Russian oil and gas they rely on to keep from freezing to death. Inflation is worse than it is here. France, England and Germany were sent reeling from record heat waves and flooding, killing thousands. Right wing extremist authoritarianism is spreading like wildfires, driven by anti-immigrant fervor.

And their knickers are in a knot about iMessage?



You also left out that the European automakers are about to be swamped by cheap Chinese EV imports and their automakers are going to be unable to compete against this tide.  The automotive industry in Europe is a big part of the EU economy.

The fact that they can’t see this coming is mind boggling.

We've all seen it coming for a long time. But that's like saying that protecting minorities, and access to clean drinking water, and speeding tickets, and spousal abuse are irrelevant and shouldn't be dealt with until the threat of a fascist takeover of the United States is conclusively thwarted. 

The big problems do not make dealing with the somewhat smaller problems less important, nor does dealing with smaller problems take away from the big problems. 

avon b7

StrangeDays said:

avon b7 said:

9secondkox2 said:

spheric said:

iloveapplegear said:

What a stupid decision . Off course al apple competitors are going to say yet.

So if you’re going to decide how to deal with a potential threat to free markets, you shouldn’t hear what the other players in the market have to say about it? 

The competitors will have opinions, and they will have to explain and justify them. They might make good arguments that the Commission has not yet taken into account, since they might involve business data points. 

Remember that — as always — this legislation does not apply just to Apple, but to ALL players. They might bring arguments that let Apple off the hook, if it helps their own case. 

An app isn’t a threat. 

iMessage isn’t harming anyone, nor is it anticompetitive in any way. It’s just better than everyone else. And that’s a good thing. 

The EU: haters of American success a long time running. 

Really? 

https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-confirms-imessage-locks-users-into-ios-and-putting-it-on-android-would-hurt-apple/

Is it now the only non-cross platform IM app on the market?

In this day and age, should messaging really be platform specific? 

And before you say it, SMS isn't the cross platform side of Messages. It's a completely different system. 

Of course it should, if that’s what the platform creator wants to do and that’s what their customers enjoy. 

Should Burger King be forced to offer Big Macs? Or can they continue to just offer their own product? Hmm. 

And yes, SMS is the cross platform side of the Messages app. Which protocols it uses is entirely irrelevant, it’s still the Messages app. 

Hamburgers have nothing to do with messaging. 

SMS is not even an IM equivalent. It is a prehistoric, extremely limited, very lightweight and non-private messaging system that has little to nothing to do with IM today.

It has no place in Messages. It would be better to package any 'incompatible' message up and send it as email instead! At least most of what is in the messages would actually reach the other end. 

'Unacceptable' I hear you say. But that's weird as you seem to think SMS is an option. 

edited October 2023

spheric

9secondkox2 said:

spheric said:

iloveapplegear said:

What a stupid decision . Off course al apple competitors are going to say yet.

So if you’re going to decide how to deal with a potential threat to free markets, you shouldn’t hear what the other players in the market have to say about it? 

The competitors will have opinions, and they will have to explain and justify them. They might make good arguments that the Commission has not yet taken into account, since they might involve business data points. 

Remember that — as always — this legislation does not apply just to Apple, but to ALL players. They might bring arguments that let Apple off the hook, if it helps their own case. 

An app isn’t a threat. 

iMessage isn’t harming anyone, nor is it anticompetitive in any way. It’s just better than everyone else. And that’s a good thing. 

The EU: haters of American success a long time running. 

Of course. We just all hate America. 

The usual "country-before-brains" idiocy aside: iMessage isn't just "an app". It's a service, and it's built-in as the default on the second-biggest computing platform in the world. 

It's not quite dissimilar to the Microsoft lawsuit, where the legendary "haters of American success" - The United States' Federal Trade Commission — sued Microsoft for disadvantaging other browsers by bundling Internet Explorer. 

Read up! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp.

spheric

StrangeDays said:

avon b7 said:

9secondkox2 said:

spheric said:

iloveapplegear said:

What a stupid decision . Off course al apple competitors are going to say yet.

So if you’re going to decide how to deal with a potential threat to free markets, you shouldn’t hear what the other players in the market have to say about it? 

The competitors will have opinions, and they will have to explain and justify them. They might make good arguments that the Commission has not yet taken into account, since they might involve business data points. 

Remember that — as always — this legislation does not apply just to Apple, but to ALL players. They might bring arguments that let Apple off the hook, if it helps their own case. 

An app isn’t a threat. 

iMessage isn’t harming anyone, nor is it anticompetitive in any way. It’s just better than everyone else. And that’s a good thing. 

The EU: haters of American success a long time running. 

Really? 

https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-confirms-imessage-locks-users-into-ios-and-putting-it-on-android-would-hurt-apple/

Is it now the only non-cross platform IM app on the market?

In this day and age, should messaging really be platform specific? 

And before you say it, SMS isn't the cross platform side of Messages. It's a completely different system. 

Of course it should, if that’s what the platform creator wants to do and that’s what their customers enjoy. 

Should Burger King be forced to offer Big Macs? Or can they continue to just offer their own product? Hmm. 

You've pulled up the wrong crappy comparison. That's the one you wanted to use for the "Apple needs to allow multiple app stores" discussion. This is the "should all messenger services be interoperable, and is iMessage big enough to be considered a serious market force in Europe" thread. 

13485

avon b7 said:

Really? 

https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-confirms-imessage-locks-users-into-ios-and-putting-it-on-android-would-hurt-apple/

Is it now the only non-cross platform IM app on the market?

In this day and age, should messaging really be platform specific? 

And before you say it, SMS isn't the cross platform side of Messages. It's a completely different system. 

As far as IM being a non-cross platform app, so what? If it provides a competitive advantage to Apple--something you seem highly averse to--so what? Aldi products provide a competitive advantage to Aldi, and they are not the same as Wal-Mart products. It's not some major inconvenience to just shop at either one, or to cross the street to get something else.