Apple admits third-party App Stores in Europe are inevitable

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in General Discussion

Apple's latest financial filings show that the company expects to be forced into allowing third-party App Store across Europe, starting in 2024.




Following the passing into law of its Digital Markets Act, the European Union has previously told Apple that it must open up its App Store to rivals. Apple has tried arguing against the ruling, or at least significant parts of it, but now expects App Store changes to be inevitable.

"The Company expects to make further business changes in the future, including as a result of legislative initiatives impacting the App Store," says Apple in a Form 10-K, "such as the European Union ("EU") Digital Markets Act, which the Company is required to comply with by March 2024."

This notice comes in a section of the 10-K which describes risks to the company and its expected profitability.

"Future changes could also affect what the Company charges developers for access to its platforms, how it manages distribution of apps outside of the App Store," it continues, "and how and to what extent it allows developers to communicate with consumers inside the App Store regarding alternative purchasing mechanisms."

Overall, this "could reduce the volume of sales, and the commission that the Company earns on those sales, would decrease." Apple says that if the commission Apple gets on App Store sales is reduced, "the Company's business, results of operations and financial condition could be materially adversely affected."

Apple has not commented since making this filing. However, it has previous strenuously argued against allowing third-party app stores and what's called sideloading of apps.

As spotted by TechCrunch, analysts Morgan Stanley believe that the new wording in the 10-K form confirms the fact that third-party access is coming. Apple will "likely begin 3rd party app stores on device in Europe," say the analysts.

"We believe Apple is well positioned to compete should these changes take place," continued Morgan Stanley, "due to the App Store's security, centralization, and convenience, limiting the potential user experience and/or P&L impact.

Separately, Morgan Stanley has been taking a longer-term view of Apple's stock price than some analysts. Nonetheless, in October 2023 it dropped its price target to $210.

Read on AppleInsider

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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 34
    jimh2jimh2 Posts: 656member
    Those using the 3rd party app stores for their products will quickly find out 99.99% of iPhone users will never venture over there to hand out the credit card and personal information to another company. They may well find out the $99 developer kit is no longer $99 for them or their is a per install licensing fee. The really do not know how good they have it now.
    williamlondonSpitbathchasmbaconstanggregoriusmlolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 34
    jimh2 said:
    Those using the 3rd party app stores for their products will quickly find out 99.99% of iPhone users will never venture over there to hand out the credit card and personal information to another company. They may well find out the $99 developer kit is no longer $99 for them or their is a per install licensing fee. The really do not know how good they have it now.
    Quite. And those of us that work in mobile security can't wait for the merde fest that will ensue.

     Most enterprises have a good grasp on security, even BYOD: I suspect Apple with have new MDM capability that will block 3rd party app stores, however they manifest themselves


    williamlondonSpitbathchasmbaconstangiOSDevSWEcoolfactorlolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 34
    jimh2 said:
    Those using the 3rd party app stores for their products will quickly find out 99.99% of iPhone users will never venture over there to hand out the credit card and personal information to another company. They may well find out the $99 developer kit is no longer $99 for them or their is a per install licensing fee. The really do not know how good they have it now.
    It is really easy to get fraudulent charges reversed. You just have to do it in a timely manner as the law specifies and sometimes you can still get it reversed afterwards.
    williamlondonnubus
  • Reply 4 of 34
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,604member
    jimh2 said:
    Those using the 3rd party app stores for their products will quickly find out 99.99% of iPhone users will never venture over there to hand out the credit card and personal information to another company. They may well find out the $99 developer kit is no longer $99 for them or their is a per install licensing fee. The really do not know how good they have it now.
    They already know that.

    Google's PlayStore is not the only Android game in town, but it's the only viable one for app success, and where nearly all Google Android owners get their app fixes. (Unless you're in China). 
    chasm
  • Reply 5 of 34
    chasmchasm Posts: 3,525member
    Here’s what will happen:

    1, Alternative App Stores will eventually open in Europe. Apple will still have some level of approval/control on how they run their business. Curious people will go check it out.

    2. At some point, one of them will start offering malware disguised as apps, or be discovered to be selling customer data to spammers.

    3. Apple or authorities will shut down that store, but the damage will be done.

    4. Everyone will flock to the “real” App Store because of security and privacy guarantees the alternative stores will not be able to truthfully offer. Android users have already figured this out — alternative stores exist, but primarily for apps Google doesn’t allow, and they do 1/100,000th the business the Play Store does.

    5. Experiment marked as “failed.”
    edited November 2023 gregoriusmpulseimageslolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 34
    nubusnubus Posts: 577member
    jimh2 said:
    Those using the 3rd party app stores for their products will quickly find out 99.99% of iPhone users will never venture over there to hand out the credit card and personal information to another company. They may well find out the $99 developer kit is no longer $99 for them or their is a per install licensing fee. The really do not know how good they have it now.
    iPhone users share their credit cards with Amazon, Sony, Google, Paypal, and a lot more - and personal information with Meta... it isn't like "99.99%" of users have very high standards. This will change things. All companies doing apps should start their planning. Apple is adding 43% to prices. That revenue could go to developers or lower prices. Users might download apps from Apple but pay through Paypal. And developers might offer 2 in-app prices "Apple" or "Paypal".
  • Reply 7 of 34
    chasmchasm Posts: 3,525member
    nubus said:
    .
    iPhone users share their credit cards with Amazon, Sony, Google, Paypal, and a lot more - and personal information with Meta... it isn't like "99.99%" of users have very high standards. This will change things. All companies doing apps should start their planning. Apple is adding 43% to prices. That revenue could go to developers or lower prices. Users might download apps from Apple but pay through Paypal. And developers might offer 2 in-app prices "Apple" or "Paypal".
    This is a good point, but remember this: if you pay through some other system, you DO NOT GET Apple’s hassle free “return/refund” policy, or their pain free subscription-cancellation policy. Those other stores are going to be VERY dependent on keeping their commissions, 
    baconstangiOSDevSWEgregoriusmpulseimageslolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 34
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,290member
    chasm said:
    Here’s what will happen:

    1, Alternative App Stores will eventually open in Europe. Apple will still have some level of approval/control on how they run their business. Curious people will go check it out.

    2. At some point, one of them will start offering malware disguised as apps, or be discovered to be selling customer data to spammers.

    3. Apple or authorities will shut down that store, but the damage will be done.

    4. Everyone will flock to the “real” App Store because of security and privacy guarantees the alternative stores will not be able to truthfully offer. Android users have already figured this out — alternative stores exist, but primarily for apps Google doesn’t allow, and they do 1/100,000th the business the Play Store does.

    5. Experiment marked as “failed.”
    #1 This first alternative App Store will be government controlled, forcing all iPhone users in the country to use it in the name of protecting citizens rights. Of course we all know that means they'll be spying on every citizen using an iPhone.

    #2 See #1 because malware will be written by the government controlled communications departments so they can see everything than happens on every government-controlled phone. I call it malware because it's something I wouldn't normally install. The malware will be injected through government apps under the guise of something similar to the US IRS or another government agency everyone has to use to file documents, like taxes.

    #3 Apple won't have the ability to shut anything down approved by the EU, they'll only have control where the Apple App Store is the only one available (along with at least USA corporate and government app stores and their ability to install apps--luckily I don't work for the government anymore and they couldn't touch my personal phone anyway, only government phones, which I agree with.

    #4 Everyone might still go back to the real Apple App Store but damage will already have been done with government-sponsored malware installed. 

    #5 The EU will NEVER admit this failed.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 34
    nubusnubus Posts: 577member
    chasm said:
    nubus said:
    iPhone users share their credit cards with Amazon, Sony, Google, Paypal, and a lot more - and personal information with Meta... it isn't like "99.99%" of users have very high standards. This will change things. All companies doing apps should start their planning. Apple is adding 43% to prices. That revenue could go to developers or lower prices. Users might download apps from Apple but pay through Paypal. And developers might offer 2 in-app prices "Apple" or "Paypal".
    This is a good point, but remember this: if you pay through some other system, you DO NOT GET Apple’s hassle free “return/refund” policy, or their pain free subscription-cancellation policy. Those other stores are going to be VERY dependent on keeping their commissions, 
    Yes, it will be different, but Spotify etc. are able to handle subscriptions. Due to legislation, companies must make it easy to unsubscribe in EU - Amazon in EU has a 2-step unsubscribe procedure.

    The change will also provide access to apps that Apple currently won't allow. For customers in EU having a gatekeeper from California is far from perfect. I'm sure some Americans feel the same. And yes... it will introduce new problems, but installing apps on Mac has been drag'n'drop for 39 years. It is possible.
    iOSDevSWE
  • Reply 10 of 34
    Yeassss juicy!!

    Can’t wait!

    Malware etc not a worry for me

    i only ever use mainstream apps - Netflix , Spotify, YouTube and the like

    it will be an absolute pleasure to pay outside the AppStore!

    whohooooo f u Apple 🍏 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 11 of 34
    It might make it easier for people to switch one way or the other. So far, if you are on Android and want to switch to iOS you have to buy all the apps new. I could imagine that the Play store will negotiate app contracts so that a user in many cases can use either the iOS version or the Android version. Hence, if you install the Play store on iOS you will get the same apps as you had on the Pixel.

    Right now such a switch would mean that you need to pay for all the apps a second time.
  • Reply 12 of 34
    chasm said:
    Here’s what will happen:

    1, Alternative App Stores will eventually open in Europe. Apple will still have some level of approval/control on how they run their business. Curious people will go check it out.
    Apple has full control of how they run their business. This regulation does not take away from that. But users have a right to install whatever they want on their devices without any say, involvement or control from Apple - or any particular government for that matter - so long as it does not facilitate criminal activity. While I would never provide my contact or payment info to a shady app store, I can certainly see a situation where there might be an App or Game that Apple has declined to list in its store (or outright banned) that I'd like to install from a reputable source. For example, I do not currently play any Epic video games, but perhaps at some point I may; and Apple has banned them. Right now, Apple is the gatekeeper with final say over what I can and cannot install on my phone. My phone is my property, so that gatekeeper should be me, and me alone.

    edited November 2023 williamlondonavon b7
  • Reply 13 of 34
    jimh2 said:
    Those using the 3rd party app stores for their products will quickly find out 99.99% of iPhone users will never venture over there to hand out the credit card and personal information to another company. They may well find out the $99 developer kit is no longer $99 for them or their is a per install licensing fee. The really do not know how good they have it now.
    It is really easy to get fraudulent charges reversed. You just have to do it in a timely manner as the law specifies and sometimes you can still get it reversed afterwards.
    You know what's even easier? Make sure it doesn't happen at all. Fraudulent charges aren't the only risk here, there are more personal details they might get which you can't "easily reverse afterwards."
    baconstangpulseimagescoolfactorlolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 34
    My belief (for what it is worth) the only alternative app stores will be provided by the big players (google, meta, big gaming companies, adobe, etc) which can choose to sell their wares only on their own App Store.  Despite most users NOT wanting to work with non-Apple app stores, they will have no choice for some of their desired apps.  Little players will be DOA in the App Store market.
    baconstangdanoxwatto_cobra
  • Reply 15 of 34
    croprcropr Posts: 1,140member
    jimh2 said:
    Those using the 3rd party app stores for their products will quickly find out 99.99% of iPhone users will never venture over there to hand out the credit card and personal information to another company. They may well find out the $99 developer kit is no longer $99 for them or their is a per install licensing fee. The really do not know how good they have it now.
    You are thinking too much about dodgy app store companies that try to sell malware.    Two examples to illustrate how trustworthy companies might set up app stores.

    Suppose that Microsoft is setting up its own iOS app store to distribute its own developed iOS apps (no 3rd party apps) and to get rid of the cumbersome Apple App store guidelines.  Do you really think the existing users of MS-Office  will stop using Ms-Office because Microsoft is distributing MS-Office via its own app store?  And do you really think that Microsoft would abuse your credit card details?

    If my bank created its own app store, I would immediately use it. Because I don't like that much that Apple is storing my payment details, these details belong to me and my bank.  Apple is a foreign company for me, the nearest Appe Store is 100 miles away and I have no personal relationship with any Apple employee, so in case of issues I might have a hard time.  It is so much easier and trustworthy with my bank manager, who knows me personally, and who has his office just around the corner.









    edited November 2023 gatorguywilliamlondon
  • Reply 16 of 34
    danoxdanox Posts: 3,286member
    jimh2 said:
    Those using the 3rd party app stores for their products will quickly find out 99.99% of iPhone users will never venture over there to hand out the credit card and personal information to another company. They may well find out the $99 developer kit is no longer $99 for them or their is a per install licensing fee. The really do not know how good they have it now.
    It is really easy to get fraudulent charges reversed. You just have to do it in a timely manner as the law specifies and sometimes you can still get it reversed afterwards.
    Maybe you can get things reversed with major banking/retail institutions, but bad outfits like Epic, eBay, PayPal, and most smaller hole in the wall companies winging it good luck I’m not gonna use any of those companies. Most of the smaller companies will end up going to a third-party outfit to handle their online transactions for a fee, because like Epic, they will find out that there is a lot of real cost that Apple took on behind the scenes. :smiley:  Back to the good old days were third-party money men are in the middle.

    When politicians and the government bureaucracies say they’re doing you a favor, run in the other direction.
    edited November 2023 williamlondonlolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 34
    danoxdanox Posts: 3,286member
    Pekoe said:
    My belief (for what it is worth) the only alternative app stores will be provided by the big players (google, meta, big gaming companies, adobe, etc) which can choose to sell their wares only on their own App Store.  Despite most users NOT wanting to work with non-Apple app stores, they will have no choice for some of their desired apps.  Little players will be DOA in the App Store market.
    The smaller companies will be dead in the water, going back to the good old days where middleman companies will offer smaller companies a service for a big fat fee.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 18 of 34
    coolfactorcoolfactor Posts: 2,323member
    jimh2 said:
    Those using the 3rd party app stores for their products will quickly find out 99.99% of iPhone users will never venture over there to hand out the credit card and personal information to another company. They may well find out the $99 developer kit is no longer $99 for them or their is a per install licensing fee. The really do not know how good they have it now.
    It is really easy to get fraudulent charges reversed. You just have to do it in a timely manner as the law specifies and sometimes you can still get it reversed afterwards.

    Not always "really easy". A lot of vendors deliberately make reaching their support channels a challenge just to keep the traffic down.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 19 of 34
    coolfactorcoolfactor Posts: 2,323member

    kkqd1337 said:
    Yeassss juicy!!

    Can’t wait!

    Malware etc not a worry for me

    i only ever use mainstream apps - Netflix , Spotify, YouTube and the like

    it will be an absolute pleasure to pay outside the AppStore!

    whohooooo f u Apple 🍏 

    Trying to be a playground rebel? Or do you genuinely hate Apple?

    Just wait until these alternative app stores hit the marketplace, and you'll see the true abuse the human being is capable of dishing out. We saw it on Windows. You think it's bad now with Apple getting a 30% commission... just wait... costs will go up for everyone.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 20 of 34
    Is any of this really about "Alternative App Stores"? Does anyone actually care about alternative app stores?

    This is more about distributing Apps without needing Apple's approval. This is about distributing Apps that are not blocked because of business reasons...Apple's business reasons. This is about being able to distribute an app, free or not, right on your own website, directly to your users.

    If Apple had been more flexible and less unrealistic with their control, no one would have ever asked for this.
    williamlondongatorguy
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