EU's latest demand on Apple about geolocking is unforgivably naive

Posted:
in General Discussion

The European Union has told Apple to stop geo-locking, where apps and services vary in different countries -- entirely ignoring decades of laws and practices by other industries that have nothing to do with the App Store.

Blue flag with twelve yellow stars in a circle, featuring a white airplane emblem, waving on metal poles in front of a blurred building.
EU wants the impossible with Apple's App Store



Give the EU credit, it has implemented the kind of laws regarding Big Tech that other countries, including the US, are still only talking about. But in this case, its assumption that it can simply mandate how the rest of the entire world works is an excoriating overreach.

The new demand is that Apple stop geo-locking, and specifically that EU users must be able to:


  1. Use the same interface as in other countries

  2. Use credit cards registered in different countries

  3. Download apps not available in their home country



That first point is hard to follow, and the EU's full description is no clearer. It claims that "consumers are only allowed to access the interface made for the country where they have registered their Apple account."

Yet Apple Music is Apple Music wherever you are, it's the music on it that might differ. There are countries where some services such as Apple Music are not available at all, but that doesn't seem to be the EU's point.

The second point about how Apple must stop preventing EU users using credit cards or other payment systems from different countries, is also a bit odd. If you're based outside of the US, you may already be familiar with how no US firm will refuse to take your money.

Which leaves the last part, the issue that Apple must stop the way that "consumers are not allowed to download the apps offered in other countries." This is the part that isn't just odd, it is downright embarrassing because it means the European Union has no clue.

International rights agreements



Forget Apple, this is not an Apple issue. The reason that some apps are not available in some countries is exactly the same as why "Saturday Night Live" is not shown in the UK.

Or why "Star Trek" can sometimes be on Paramount+ in the US, but Netflix in France, and another service entirely in Spain.

Rights to properties like TV shows, films, apps, books, and every single form of media ever created, are intensely complex and no EU demand is going to undo decades of contracts and legal precedent.

Curiously, apps might be the easiest form of media to make available worldwide -- in theory. Developers actually have the option to say their app should be released globally when they upload it.

But in practice, if the EU were able to force through this ridiculous idea, developers would be hit as badly as any other creator.

The problem for developers



If you are required to have your app available in every country, you are now bound by the laws of every single country. That includes the tax laws, though if you exclusively sell your app through the App Store, Apple handles the tax.

Except of course the EU has forced Apple to allow third-party app stores. So either those third-party stores would have to take on global tax, or the developers would.

Then few developers actually create absolutely every element of their apps. They might commission graphic designers, they might use stock images, they could licence music.

Every element of every app would have to be cleared for international use if the EU got its way. That's even if an app were for the Cook County Parish Council, it would still have be available everywhere.

How we got here and how we're staying



If media including apps were starting now, maybe the global situation would be different. Maybe all licenses and all tax would be the same.

But it isn't and it's not going to be, no matter what the EU wishes.

For as well as the costs of any individual app or media, there are other issues. DVD region coding was specifically created so that studios had control over when their films were released where.

They might even have wanted to have movies released worldwide instantly, but they can't afford it. Marketing campaigns run in stages, launching movies around the world is an investment that can equal the hundreds of millions of dollars spent on the film's production.

Or take Apple itself. Apple launched Apple Card in the US in 2019 and it appears that according to the EU, that should never have been limited to the States.

The EU constantly says that it is implementing laws explicitly for the good of the consumer and against Big Tech dominance. But developers are consumers too, creators are, marketing people are.

The burden that the EU's move would place on all of them would be unsupportable. Only dominant big tech could possibly afford to release apps or other media.

And if this were even physically possible, such a law change would see every one of them passing the massively increased costs on to the consumer.

Politicians are frighteningly ill-informed



We've seen individual politicians be shockingly, shamefully ignorant of the issues they attempt to pass laws on. But for all the truly superb work that the European Union and the European Commission do, this overreach is a staggering result of what purports to be serious consideration.

Specifically, the EU's document announcing this says that it follows "a coordinated investigation at European level." The Consumer Protection Network (CPC) "of national consumer authorities and the European Commission" is led what is actually described as "competent" national authorities.

According to the EU, Apple now has one month in which to respond and to "propose commitments on how they will address the identified geo-blocking practices."

"If Apple fails to address the concerns raised by the CPC Network, national authorities can take enforcement measures to ensure compliance," continues the EU.

There is a note that depending "on Apple's reply, the CPC Network may enter into a dialogue with the company."

You bet there'll be a dialogue. One side is going to say something along the lines of "in your dreams."



Read on AppleInsider

«13

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 44
    The ultimate goal of the EU is to prevent American companies from earning a penny from the EU.
    danoxentropystdknoxwatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 44
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,704member
    Unless I’m completely misunderstanding something, the EU paper
     https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/es/ip_24_5727
    specifically calls for equal access WITHIN THE EU. 

    What this means is that there needs to be a single distribution license for the entire EU, NOT that EU citizens must have access to the same distribution deals as residents of countries outside the EU. 

    The answer to that is, „Wait, this isn‘t the case already? Why the hell not?“ 

    I don’t understand the point of this article — it feels like it’s arguing against something that isn’t even on the table. 

    If I’m misunderstanding, somebody please enlighten me. 
    edited November 12 nubusdinoonedope_ahminejohntherazztiredskills
  • Reply 3 of 44
    So the EU wants Apple to ignore US law when it comes to doing business in the European Union. The problem is Apple is an American country and has to comply. All of those “issues” are based off of rules that Apple did not create, the US did, and they have to comply with that. Just like the examples of rights management of content. Credit and debit cards do not always work here in the US, and the reason is the ISSUING bank, not the merchant. The EU has different laws when it comes to using cards and sometimes places like Apple do not want to get involved with regulations and rules that make taking that card more complicated, so the card is outright declined. Even card issuers like AMEX who issue cards to people living in other countries get their cards declined here in the US because of the processing company that the merchant uses. That isn’t Apple’s problem, nor is it their fault. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 44
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 3,048member
    Deeper than licensing issues, EU countries each have their own laws. The material that is acceptable in Paris or Amsterdam is very different than what is legal in Poland or Hungary. Demanding that Apple, or anyone have one standard that applies to all of the EU simply means that the most repressive, reactionary, governments in the EU get to set the standards all EU citizens must live under. I’m pretty sure that’s NOT what the EU wants. 
    freeassociate2watto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 44
    This is ridiculous. EU car companies are selling the same model of cars at different versions and prices around the world. But they asked others to do it.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 44
    Credit card restrictions exist for a reason. One is to some extent fraud, but more importantly it's how they get certainty that you live where you are. It's super easy to make up a valid address, but a lot harder to put in a valid credit card for that country. This matters for legal reasons, fraud reasons, and also pricing. I can choose to make my product cheaper in markets where they are not as affluent. I was in vacation in Mexico and wanted to by this set of development e-books. It was half-off! When I went to check out, I learned that to get "price parity" I needed to have a Mexican card. IOW, they discounted them for that market and I wasn't allowed to jack with the system.

    Really, Apple and Google should just tell the EU to piss off and buy Nokia phones running Symbian.
    DAalsethwatto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 44
    spheric said:
    Unless I’m completely misunderstanding something, the EU paper
     https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/es/ip_24_5727
    specifically calls for equal access WITHIN THE EU. 

    What this means is that there needs to be a single distribution license for the entire EU, NOT that EU citizens must have access to the same distribution deals as residents of countries outside the EU. 

    The answer to that is, „Wait, this isn‘t the case already? Why the hell not?“ 

    I don’t understand the point of this article — it feels like it’s arguing against something that isn’t even on the table. 

    If I’m misunderstanding, somebody please enlighten me. 

    Completely agree here. This was a hastily written article that does not attempt to understand or articulate the nuance in what the EU Commission is saying. This is about letting EU citizens travel anywhere within the EU without being geo-fenced by Apple. EU citizens, it should be noted, can travel anywhere within the EU without a passport, using a common currency among many other shared benefits and policies. Imagine if Apple geo-fenced people who created their Apple Account in Alaska so that if they traveled to Texas they wouldn't be able to see half of their music. The US would regulate them to stop that behavior (and rightly so). That is what this is about, it's just countries in the EU rather than states in the US. It has nothing to do with anyone outside of the EU, or how Apple treats EU citizens while they are outside of the EU.

    My advice to AppleInsider? Stick to reporting about rumors, news, hardware and software reviews, etc., and abort these opinion pieces. While one would expect them to have a pro-Apple slant, the analysis is poor and authors come across as bratty, entitled toddlers who don't actually know anything about the topic other than that it is a reason to kick and scream because a big meanie is trying to antagonize Apple.
    sphericdope_ahminedewmekiltedgreentiredskills
  • Reply 8 of 44
    y2any2an Posts: 229member
    barthrh said:
    Credit card restrictions exist for a reason. One is to some extent fraud, but more importantly it's how they get certainty that you live where you are. It's super easy to make up a valid address, but a lot harder to put in a valid credit card for that country. This matters for legal reasons, fraud reasons, and also pricing. I can choose to make my product cheaper in markets where they are not as affluent. I was in vacation in Mexico and wanted to by this set of development e-books. It was half-off! When I went to check out, I learned that to get "price parity" I needed to have a Mexican card. IOW, they discounted them for that market and I wasn't allowed to jack with the system.

    Really, Apple and Google should just tell the EU to piss off and buy Nokia phones running Symbian.
    Within the single market, blocking someone in one country from buying something from another country at a different price is illegal.
  • Reply 9 of 44
    y2any2an Posts: 229member
    There are so many illegal practices in Europe, they are simply going after the big fish. The same has always held true in the US, sue the big companies with deep pockets.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 44
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 3,048member
    ranson said:
    spheric said:
    Unless I’m completely misunderstanding something, the EU paper
     https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/es/ip_24_5727
    specifically calls for equal access WITHIN THE EU. 

    What this means is that there needs to be a single distribution license for the entire EU, NOT that EU citizens must have access to the same distribution deals as residents of countries outside the EU. 

    The answer to that is, „Wait, this isn‘t the case already? Why the hell not?“ 

    I don’t understand the point of this article — it feels like it’s arguing against something that isn’t even on the table. 

    If I’m misunderstanding, somebody please enlighten me. 

    Imagine if Apple geo-fenced people who created their Apple Account in Alaska so that if they traveled to Texas they wouldn't be able to see half of their music. The US would regulate them to stop that behaviour (and rightly so).
    Well, there have been moves to do exactly that, not about music but relating to period tracking apps. There have also been attempts to force geofencing and different standards for particular websites on a state by state basis. So far the courts have blocked this, but I suspect with this SCOTUS it’s only a matter of time before these are allowed to stand. Once that happens you will be able to download Grinder in Alaska, but if the cops in Alabama find you have it on your phone you could be charged. 

    More to the point however the EU is nowhere nearly as established as the US is. It’s more like the US was before the Civil War, a collection of states that share some rules. The central government is trying to assert its authority, but there has been a lot of pushback, especially from the former Soviet Block states. They simply aren’t where they need to be to establish a uniform set of rules that Apple and other companies could follow across the whole of the EU.
    kurai_kage
  • Reply 11 of 44
    Some things are given how Europe works - movies, music are licensed as per country - various labels, distributors etc… so it depends on the content provider - Apple Music, Netflix - what kind of license they buy.
    But for apps, some things can be really stupid. Take Lidl Plus app - you can switch withing the app to various countries they operate, agree with their local conditions and you can use it - Czech republic, Slovakia, Germany, Italy, Spain… So far so good.
    But McDonald’s app - when you try to change the country eg from Czech republic to Germany, the app says - you cannot use this app, you need to download McDonald’s Germany app… with a link to the store. But because your Apple Account is CZ, the German store says that you cannot download the German app. And now who’s fault is that? Apple’s, because they allow the regional limitations in the store? Or McDonald’s because they decided to limit their German app just to Germany App Store? I never understood this and find it confusing.
    Just curious about other people’s point of view about this…
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 44
    The EU seems to forget that some apps are bound by censorship laws that even the EU enforce. What might be okay for one country is not okay for another.

    How is that making a better experience when developers have to spend more time researching international law than actual development?

    That being said, I’m all for the sentiment because content and apps might be available to others but not me. But to fix this problem you’d essentially have to ditch the governments of every country and rule from a single entity and the only entity at the moment that could do that is the UN. Good luck pushing that idea.
    DAalsethwatto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 44
    the weird thing is, Since July 1, 2021, European consumers must pay VAT in the country where they reside (the destination country), rather than in the country where the item is sold. This change is part of new EU e-commerce VAT rules, aimed at creating a level playing field among European and non-European businesses and simplifying VAT remittance across EU borders.
    And that was the end of one apple app store for the whole of europe where everyone in europe could buy every app available in europe.
    Apple, and a lot of other companies, went to great lenght to acommodate the EU by splitting up their stores and companies to local versions and some didn't and from then on only sell to people in the country their firm is based.

    Word in there is a 'schengen' agreement bringing the eu countries together but reality is europe is more devided than ever and more pulling apart than together

    this step however might be a step in the right direction but, as others mentioned as well, needs a lot of work from the eu itself, normalize the VAT situation and (also mentioned before) do something about geolocking of contentproviders.
    JanNL
  • Reply 14 of 44
    nubusnubus Posts: 618member
    barthrh said:
    Really, Apple and Google should just tell the EU to piss off and buy Nokia phones running Symbian.
    Google is compliant and so is Amazon. Companies can't limit sales to part of the EU Single Market.

    Why do we keep getting the same kind of articles and reactions on everything EU?
    Would be nice if those not getting the Single Market or EU did a bit of reading before hitting the keyboard.
    DAalsethmuthuk_vanalingamBel.Air
  • Reply 15 of 44
    nubus said:
    barthrh said:
    Really, Apple and Google should just tell the EU to piss off and buy Nokia phones running Symbian.
    Google is compliant and so is Amazon. Companies can't limit sales to part of the EU Single Market.

    Why do we keep getting the same kind of articles and reactions on everything EU?
    Would be nice if those not getting the Single Market or EU did a bit of reading before hitting the keyboard.

    the single market eu is a beatifull dream that is far from reality, the different states are more moving in the other direction, as mentioned before the eu isn't in anyway working towards a single vat, dividing more than getting together. the uk totally went out, austria, denmarken, germany and holland rebuilded their borders, how do you mean single market? (Amazon is blocking sales based on location, I don't know about google and I'm not sure that telling the eu to piss off is a solution to the problem)
    JanNLtmay
  • Reply 16 of 44
    With all respect it seams to be that William Gallagher is misunderstanding what the European Union here is working towards.   

    These are not demands for how Apple and others will need to act on the international stage, but purely how Apple needs to follow the ground principal of harmonic rules within the EU inner market which aims are to make it easier to move, work and live within the EU/ EEA inner market. 

    These rules have been in place for decades and yet Apple and others have chosen to ignore them. I am very happy to see that the EU is finally going after these issues. What is the meaning of having rules if they are not being followed?

    Can you for instance imagine if you as an American would be denied by Apple and others to bring the Apple content you have purchased in California with you to Florida? That Apple would demand that you had to purchase the content again, like they do with me and my content which I have purchased during the past 20 years from iTunes (movies and music)?

    During these 20 years I've moved from Norway, to Germany and to the UK. These are daily issues many Europeans are facing as the EU has changed into one large open market where people are allowed to move freely around. And can you imagine if Apple and others demanded that you had to use a credit card from California for online purchases simply because you live in California? What if you move to an other state? These are the kind of issues Europeans have had to deal with from Apple and others for the past 30 years or so. 
    edited November 12 nubuscroprsconosciuto
  • Reply 17 of 44
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,021member
    DAalseth said:
    Deeper than licensing issues, EU countries each have their own laws. The material that is acceptable in Paris or Amsterdam is very different than what is legal in Poland or Hungary. Demanding that Apple, or anyone have one standard that applies to all of the EU simply means that the most repressive, reactionary, governments in the EU get to set the standards all EU citizens must live under. I’m pretty sure that’s NOT what the EU wants. 
    With EU legislation, once passed, each member state must transpose the laws into their own systems. How they do that depends on each state but they must all comply with the EU requirements.

    There can be differences but compliance is not an issue for anyone. 

    There is nothing repressive about it as the EU 27 will all have had a say in the issue. 
    nubuskiltedgreen
  • Reply 18 of 44
    Not meaning to comment one way or another regarding the merits of anything here but Apple does limit the use of Credit Cards with regards to buying products from Apple beyond what the card issuers require.  Apple requires that the country of origin of the Apple Account and the billing address of the credit card used for purchases run through Apple's billing system must be identical to the country of the Apple or App Store in use.  Meaning that if you want to purchase something in the Apple Store or App Store for a particular country the Apple Account and Billing address for the credit card used must be in that country.  While the first requirement is easy to get around (Apple Account country) the second requirement (Billing address) is not as easy.  This is not the way all online retailers work.  For example Amazon lets you purchase from Amazon stores outside of your home country with a "foreign" billing address.  They do limit some purchases due to rights management, but they have not implemented a wholesale prohibition like Apple has.  Kind of makes travel a bit of a pain.  Just an observation.

  • Reply 19 of 44
    nubusnubus Posts: 618member
    JMaille said:
    Apple requires that the country of origin of the Apple Account and the billing address of the credit card used for purchases run through Apple's billing system must be identical to the country of the Apple or App Store in use. 
    Apple does accept PayPal as a payment method in App Store making this a very odd limitation. Amazon, Google, United, Delta, Amtrak, and so many more US companies do accept that the credit card and the country of the site don't match. This is the first time I wanted Apple to behave a bit more like Amtrak.
  • Reply 20 of 44
    croprcropr Posts: 1,142member
    The article is misleading.   The EU is talking about EU citizens accessing services in other countries within the EU.    Example: it is not allowed that a company (e.g. Apple, Netflix, ...) is refusing a service/good in Germany if the buyer is registered in France  or wants to pay with a French payment card.  

    There are some exceptions to these rules namely around copyright protected content, where the content provider has closed deals with different distribution channels per EU country (think about soccer UEFA championships).  But even then, occasional use (e.g. for a travelling Frenchman in Germany) must be allowed.  So Netfllix can define a different set of programs for France and for Germany, but a Frenchman in Germany must be able to access the German programs, (he should have some knowledge to understand the German spoken programs)

    There are no exceptions for payments: the French payment card must always be accepted in Germany.

    The EU does not care for services offered outside the EU.  

    edited November 12 nubusspheric
Sign In or Register to comment.