I give up! Seriously, that just sounded like a more rosey, wordier version of "just think positive, and your life will change". Maybe there is no bridge long enough to really connect those who believe in life with those who do not. It is just wild conjecture flying out from either side, but no connection.
So be it. Honestly, what are we supposed to say, though? How are we supposed to help when all we hear is:
"I am depressed. Most of the time life is not rosey, and most of the time I cannot see any positive. I am programmed that way, so telling me to look on the bright side of things is pointless. I'd like help, but you'll never be able to understand."
I don't know. That's why I say I give up. To be sure, the current approach doesn't seem to do much. It sure doesn't help when you presume that people who suffer from depression are simply victims of "programming".
Well, you can give up if you like. I think you aren't listening to other people's arguements, but whatever baggage prevents you from doing so is your own business. You can continue to believe that the people who oppose suicide are simply ill-informed--but many of them are, like me, well informed and simply object to it after considering it fully, just as i also object to robbery, murder and other actions I consider wrong.
This has no bearing, BTW, on how one treats a suicidal person--we are simply discussing how people feel about suicide. Treating suicidal people is a complex subject that I don't have the expertise to delve into deeply, but judging and yelling at them isn't part of the regimene.
It sure doesn't help when you presume that people who suffer from depression are simply victims of "programming".
In defense of my comments, it IS a fact that many who are depressed and consider suicide have chemical imbalances in the brain. That is a form of "programming."
In fact, in your denial that it's programming, you are, in a sense, admitting that depression and suicidal tendencies are acts of will. Am I not right?
In defense of my comments, it IS a fact that many who are depressed and consider suicide have chemical imbalances in the brain.
has anyone shown a causal relationship between these two events though? sure, if you're depressed your chemical balance is off. but is it off so you're depressed, or are you depressed so the balance is off?
i have serious problems with today's approach to making people who are depressed happy. the idea is to medicate away whatever is bothering them, so they aren't bothered anymore. problem is the majority of the time there are specific underlying causes for those feelings. covering them up with medication doesn't change the base problems.
I'm coming at this subject from (possibly) a different answer. I'm a psychology student studying Abnormal Psych, and I'm also clinically depressed. So I know a bit of the science, and also what it feels like. (Before anyone says "get help", I am.)
Quote:
Originally posted by alcimedes
has anyone shown a causal relationship between these two events though? sure, if you're depressed your chemical balance is off. but is it off so you're depressed, or are you depressed so the balance is off?
The chemicals involved are the neurotransmitters Noradrenaline, Seratonin and Dopamine. If there's too little of the neurotransmitter, depression happens. (According to the Biological perspective, anyhow). The study I've got referenced is Bunney 1979, but I can't remember specifically how he got his results.
Anyway, the 'proof', if you will, was a study using rats. The researchers gave them chemicals known to reduce the levels of dopamine in the brain. Those rats displayed symptoms similar to those of human depression, such as apathy, insomnia, and lack of energy.
Of course, you run into problems regarding the generalisation of animal studies to people, etc... for every argument in Psychology, there is an opposite argument that criticises the first one. The biological perspective is one of the most supported when looking at depression, though - it lends itself to treatments very well (drug treatments are very successful. IIRC, they're second only to Cognitive-Behavioural Therapy.)
Quote:
So be it. Honestly, what are we supposed to say, though? How are we supposed to help when all we hear is:
"I am depressed. Most of the time life is not rosey, and most of the time I cannot see any positive. I am programmed that way, so telling me to look on the bright side of things is pointless. I'd like help, but you'll never be able to understand."
That sounds like you're describing Learned Helplessness/Attributional Style. That's where the person realises that when they display depressive symptoms, they get reinforcement in the form of attention from friends, etc. Therefore, they are conditioned to believe they can do nothing about it, so that they keep getting the reinforcement.
Seligman (1975) showed that animals exposed to an electric shock in one half of a cage (i.e. if they move into the other half of the cage they don't get shocked) they quickly learn to move away to avoid the shocks. However, if the animals are given shocks they can not escape from, then later put in the same position as the first animal (with shocks in one half of the cage), they will not try to escape. That's generalised to show that, once people learn that acting depressed gets them attention, they will keep acting that way and refuse to let themselves stop. (It's not a conscious refusal, though - telling them it's their fault still wouldn't help. They still need treatment like other depressives.)
Sorry this reads more like a poor attempt at a psychology essay - I'm in the middle of revising this topic so I felt like contributing. I know more theories on depression, and some stuff about treatments, but I won't post unless people are interested.
In defense of my comments, it IS a fact that many who are depressed and consider suicide have chemical imbalances in the brain. That is a form of "programming."
Yes, it is a fact, but not an all encompassing explanation. Thus attributing "just anybody" to the consequence of programming is pretty well pointless (and somewhat dismissive once you realize that "card" is pulled out all too quickly as the "easy explanation" w/o truly understanding the full set of circumstances). As I had already noted earlier in this topic, I've been through the drug treatment route (using quite a few different drugs). Since no particular drug ever turned things around entirely (assuming my problem was completely chemical based), I concluded that my disposition isn't particularly chemical-based to begin with (most of all, various drugs were only successful at making me not "feel" at all, given the heavy dosages). That is a possibility for those who suffer despite drug treatments. I just wanted to dispell the myth that drugs can just fix anything, purely out of the notion that they exist.
I had thought that you were referring to "programming" as a form of learned response similar to what Amorya described, anyway. Believe me, my intent is not to leverage my disposition just to attract attention to myself (though that doesn't rule out that others may do this). To me, that is also quite insulting. Coincidentally, what if people just ignored people who were depressed and suicidal? Would the condition just disappear? Any bets some, if not all, would simply become more depressed and actually might commit suicide? So what did this "cry for attention" premise accomplish, really?
Quote:
In fact, in your denial that it's programming, you are, in a sense, admitting that depression and suicidal tendencies are acts of will. Am I not right?
I've been hinting all along that external social factors can induce the condition (not so much programming resulting in attention manipulation, but consistently negative circumstances that over time break down the spirit of an individual). I don't know what you are getting at (aside from "it's all in your head"), but it doesn't sound like you are on the right track at all.
I wouldn't feel like commiting suicide if I was married....
and BTW, don't f-ing blame the people who commit suicide. You act like it's their fault they have had to go through shit in their lives that makes them feel that way.
I act like it's their decision to make, and they made it. We all have shit to go through, some a lot more than others, it is certainly true. They need to accept the "blame"--they did it, for Christ's sake.
Forgive them or call them cowards or mourn their passing, but it is their damn choice to make and they can certainly be either condemned or praised for making it. I choose to condemn, because I believe it is a fundamentally wrong choice--that's my preogative, as theirs is to make the decision.
Comments
"I am depressed. Most of the time life is not rosey, and most of the time I cannot see any positive. I am programmed that way, so telling me to look on the bright side of things is pointless. I'd like help, but you'll never be able to understand."
This has no bearing, BTW, on how one treats a suicidal person--we are simply discussing how people feel about suicide. Treating suicidal people is a complex subject that I don't have the expertise to delve into deeply, but judging and yelling at them isn't part of the regimene.
Originally posted by Randycat99
It sure doesn't help when you presume that people who suffer from depression are simply victims of "programming".
In defense of my comments, it IS a fact that many who are depressed and consider suicide have chemical imbalances in the brain. That is a form of "programming."
In fact, in your denial that it's programming, you are, in a sense, admitting that depression and suicidal tendencies are acts of will. Am I not right?
In defense of my comments, it IS a fact that many who are depressed and consider suicide have chemical imbalances in the brain.
has anyone shown a causal relationship between these two events though? sure, if you're depressed your chemical balance is off. but is it off so you're depressed, or are you depressed so the balance is off?
i have serious problems with today's approach to making people who are depressed happy. the idea is to medicate away whatever is bothering them, so they aren't bothered anymore. problem is the majority of the time there are specific underlying causes for those feelings. covering them up with medication doesn't change the base problems.
Originally posted by alcimedes
has anyone shown a causal relationship between these two events though? sure, if you're depressed your chemical balance is off. but is it off so you're depressed, or are you depressed so the balance is off?
The chemicals involved are the neurotransmitters Noradrenaline, Seratonin and Dopamine. If there's too little of the neurotransmitter, depression happens. (According to the Biological perspective, anyhow). The study I've got referenced is Bunney 1979, but I can't remember specifically how he got his results.
Anyway, the 'proof', if you will, was a study using rats. The researchers gave them chemicals known to reduce the levels of dopamine in the brain. Those rats displayed symptoms similar to those of human depression, such as apathy, insomnia, and lack of energy.
Of course, you run into problems regarding the generalisation of animal studies to people, etc... for every argument in Psychology, there is an opposite argument that criticises the first one. The biological perspective is one of the most supported when looking at depression, though - it lends itself to treatments very well (drug treatments are very successful. IIRC, they're second only to Cognitive-Behavioural Therapy.)
So be it. Honestly, what are we supposed to say, though? How are we supposed to help when all we hear is:
"I am depressed. Most of the time life is not rosey, and most of the time I cannot see any positive. I am programmed that way, so telling me to look on the bright side of things is pointless. I'd like help, but you'll never be able to understand."
That sounds like you're describing Learned Helplessness/Attributional Style. That's where the person realises that when they display depressive symptoms, they get reinforcement in the form of attention from friends, etc. Therefore, they are conditioned to believe they can do nothing about it, so that they keep getting the reinforcement.
Seligman (1975) showed that animals exposed to an electric shock in one half of a cage (i.e. if they move into the other half of the cage they don't get shocked) they quickly learn to move away to avoid the shocks. However, if the animals are given shocks they can not escape from, then later put in the same position as the first animal (with shocks in one half of the cage), they will not try to escape. That's generalised to show that, once people learn that acting depressed gets them attention, they will keep acting that way and refuse to let themselves stop. (It's not a conscious refusal, though - telling them it's their fault still wouldn't help. They still need treatment like other depressives.)
Sorry this reads more like a poor attempt at a psychology essay - I'm in the middle of revising this topic so I felt like contributing. I know more theories on depression, and some stuff about treatments, but I won't post unless people are interested.
Amorya
Originally posted by CosmoNut
In defense of my comments, it IS a fact that many who are depressed and consider suicide have chemical imbalances in the brain. That is a form of "programming."
Yes, it is a fact, but not an all encompassing explanation. Thus attributing "just anybody" to the consequence of programming is pretty well pointless (and somewhat dismissive once you realize that "card" is pulled out all too quickly as the "easy explanation" w/o truly understanding the full set of circumstances). As I had already noted earlier in this topic, I've been through the drug treatment route (using quite a few different drugs). Since no particular drug ever turned things around entirely (assuming my problem was completely chemical based), I concluded that my disposition isn't particularly chemical-based to begin with (most of all, various drugs were only successful at making me not "feel" at all, given the heavy dosages). That is a possibility for those who suffer despite drug treatments. I just wanted to dispell the myth that drugs can just fix anything, purely out of the notion that they exist.
I had thought that you were referring to "programming" as a form of learned response similar to what Amorya described, anyway. Believe me, my intent is not to leverage my disposition just to attract attention to myself (though that doesn't rule out that others may do this). To me, that is also quite insulting. Coincidentally, what if people just ignored people who were depressed and suicidal? Would the condition just disappear? Any bets some, if not all, would simply become more depressed and actually might commit suicide? So what did this "cry for attention" premise accomplish, really?
Quote:
In fact, in your denial that it's programming, you are, in a sense, admitting that depression and suicidal tendencies are acts of will. Am I not right?
I've been hinting all along that external social factors can induce the condition (not so much programming resulting in attention manipulation, but consistently negative circumstances that over time break down the spirit of an individual). I don't know what you are getting at (aside from "it's all in your head"), but it doesn't sound like you are on the right track at all.
and BTW, don't f-ing blame the people who commit suicide. You act like it's their fault they have had to go through shit in their lives that makes them feel that way.
Forgive them or call them cowards or mourn their passing, but it is their damn choice to make and they can certainly be either condemned or praised for making it. I choose to condemn, because I believe it is a fundamentally wrong choice--that's my preogative, as theirs is to make the decision.
They aren't victims.