There's a LOT of towers out there with just one or two cards. If we're making a box to 1) sell well and 2) sell to people that would otherwise not buy a Mac.
The second internal drive bay is also one of the main 'features' of the towers. And it is one that even the iMac folks can get around with a FW enclosure -> skip it for the pizzabox so they lust after something better </strong><hr></blockquote>
I think it would be possible to distinguish between the two line and ensure that the new Cube would only eat at the low end (iMac) sales (with higher margins) and not eat at the PMacs. The PowerMacs would have a faster bus, 4 memory slots instead of 2 and more PCI and drive slots. anyone looking for an entry level machine, but not wanting an iMac and unable to afford a PowerMac would be attracted to this concept I think.
Another solution would be, when the 970 is available, would be to offer a 970 line of PowerMacs at slightly higher prices than current PowerMacs and offer G4 Mac towers at slightly less that current PowerMacs. This might also allow Apple to have a true Professional line up (970) and a prosumer lineup (G4).
I think it would be possible to distinguish between the two line and ensure that the new Cube would only eat at the low end (iMac) sales (with higher margins) and not eat at the PMacs. . .
</strong><hr></blockquote>
How about this? Top PowerMacs with dual 970s. The bottom PowerMac with a single 970, for those who do not need the dual performance but want the features of the PowerMac. The tiny tower or cube like model would have a single 970. With a 970 it could sell at a little premium, so if it did take sales from the iMac, the bottom line would look good nonetheless. It would be a really good Mac for games too, would it not?
But I want room for 2 Hard Drives and 1 optical drive as well. Also, one PCI slot, one 4xAGP slot, and a discount coupon for a 17? widescreen LCD monitor. So, iMac^3 + said 17? LCD monitor + coupon = $1,499 USD.
I think that is reasonable, but I don't see a coupon offered for the monitor. From Apple's perspective, if you want a monitor, either pony up for one of theirs or you own, or buy an iMac with the monitor included. To me, the entire reason for having an alternative to the iMac for similar pricing minus the monitor, was to give the consumer options to the AIO integrate-everything concept. In order to maximize margins, you want their 17"WD, buy one or buy an iMac.
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>I like it.
But I want room for 2 Hard Drives and 1 optical drive as well. Also, one PCI slot, one 4xAGP slot, and a discount coupon for a 17? widescreen LCD monitor. So, iMac^3 + said 17? LCD monitor + coupon = $1,499 USD.
I?d never get an iMac because, for one thing, the Graphics card cannot be upgraded. With regards to upgrading the sound system, or the Optical Drive, or the Hard Drive, the premium on those is so great it?s hardly worth it. In this day and age, most people are buying their 2nd or 3rd computer; they are not newbies that Apple can pull the wool over. People are savvy to these things, and this reflects in the poor sales figures for Apple.
What have I ever had in my G4? I only recall ever using a SCSI card for a couple months. But when OS X didn't support it when it came out, I took it out. Since then I have upgraded my CPU card and my graphics card and of course my memory. I would say about 75% of Mac tower users are like me. They only really need one PCI and one AGP and plenty of RAM slots. But Apple needs to design for the optimum user: no more than 4 PCI slots covers 99% of the people who need a Mac Tower. The others are niche.
This would be for people who want essentially what the iMac offers but don't want: AIO, un-upgradable GPU, fix monitor, no extra drive space etc, and don't need what the PowerMacs offer in terms of: even more drives, more PCI, fastest bus or latest and gratest cpu. These people need the Cube, but at a reasonable price (like low iMac range), with standard size upgrades.
Those who wanted even more expandability are at the other end of the market. When Apple killed the clones, it was because they weren't growing the market, especially at the low end. The were just canabilizing the mid to high end markets. Apple managed to get there partly on the own, with the iMac, now I think is the time to get where they wanted the clones to get them...the entry level user, who doesn't want built-in-unupgradble-everthing the AIO offers, and don't need everything the PowerMac offers. You want to spread this Mac platform out of it's existing niche? You have to start offering products the break out of your traditional niches.
<strong>This would be for people who want essentially what the iMac offers but don't want: AIO, un-upgradable GPU, fix monitor, no extra drive space etc, and don't need what the PowerMacs offer in terms of: even more drives, more PCI, fastest bus or latest and gratest cpu. These people need the Cube, but at a reasonable price (like low iMac range), with standard size upgrades.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So:
Return of the Pizzabox. They did sell very well.
ONE slot. Converter bridge allows it to be AGB or PCI.
One HD spot.
One CPU.
One optical drive - up to and including the superdrive.
Yes, I'd limit it to _one_ HD. There's a firewire port if you need more, it isn't that much of a hassle, and if you have enough envy -> Power line.
The firewire enclosures are a little steep - but you can swap the innards out if you like. And the FW drives aren't insanely expensive, just steep.
I'd think Apple could sell one of those starting at $800. Maybe less. I mean, it's an eMac without the monitor - but instead you get to upgrade bits a little bit. $200 gets you a second drive (external), $200 gets you a rocking GPU, $200 -> max ram, $200 for superdrive-upgrade...
I would say this competes head-to-head with the iMac, and does nothing for-or-against an all Dual-CPU Power line. I think there's room for it though. I'd make it thin-VCR sized for some reason Hmm. Add IR port on the front. Or Bluetooth.
Yes, I'd limit it to _one_ HD. There's a firewire port if you need more, it isn't that much of a hassle, and if you have enough envy -> Power line.
The firewire enclosures are a little steep - but you can swap the innards out if you like. And the FW drives aren't insanely expensive, just steep.
I'd think Apple could sell one of those starting at $800. Maybe less. I mean, it's an eMac without the monitor - but instead you get to upgrade bits a little bit. $200 gets you a second drive (external), $200 gets you a rocking GPU, $200 -> max ram, $200 for superdrive-upgrade...
I would say this competes head-to-head with the iMac, and does nothing for-or-against an all Dual-CPU Power line. I think there's room for it though. I'd make it thin-VCR sized for some reason Hmm. Add IR port on the front. Or Bluetooth.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is exactly the kind of thinking that has sent Apple to the dumpster.
Purposely crippling functionality when it doesn?t cost any more to have it there. Just because the Power line sux shit, we can?t have anything that might compete with it in terms of decent modularity. Put a decent CPU or two or four in there, and you won?t have to worry about said completion.
<strong>Regarding the PowerMac enclosure, here is something to think about. We are in an economic down turn, and Apple just posted a loss. They will want to invest product design dollars in things that greatly increase sales, like totally-new products. When the IBM 970 comes out in the PowerMacs, these PowerMacs will sell extremely well in the existing enclosure. Making a new enclosure for it will not affect sale much, if at all. So, I'm more or less expecting the new PowerMacs to look the same as they do now, with just a few cosmetic changes.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I disagree. The el capitan is dead, played, tired. Also, it was designed for the Moto chip in Jan not the 970. The 970 is totally new tech, new aim, new direction, new image of real speed. Apple needs a new enclosure to make a new statement for the new line of towers to bring in new sales. There's a few reasons why tower sales suck. If you are going to completely change the inside, then completely change the outside as well.
This is exactly the kind of thinking that has sent Apple to the dumpster.
Purposely crippling functionality when it doesn?t cost any more to have it there. Just because the Power line sux shit, we can?t have anything that might compete with it in terms of decent modularity. </strong><hr></blockquote>
2 firewire ports _are_ decent modularity. I agree in part: Apple could make a 2 HD-spot, 2 Optical drive, 2 slot computer for a lot less than the current PowerMacs. Let's call it the PizzaMac.
But the market for the current PowerMacs is not 100% number crunchers/top end elite 'Pro' users. If half of the Power buyers buy Pizza boxes, 1/3 of the iMac buyers switch over to Pizza boxes, and a chunk of gamers/upgrade/hot rod diehards buy one -> great. PizzaMac a smash success. And I think it _would be_.
But you'd draw enough people out of buying the PowerMac line that Apple would scuttle it.
'Hooray' I hear you saying. That's fine - but the 'Pro' buyers that are the other half of the PowerMac buyers would be left with precisely zero Macs that are anywhere near sufficiently capable. Congrats, we've killed, staked, and buried a niche that Apple is (and has always been) quite comfortable in. We swapped it for a niche of extremely price-conscious, fickle, fad-driven folk. Gross margins are down 15% on the year, now what? (Marketshare up 1 whole % = woot!)
It is intentional crippling when there's jumpers on the motherboard that limit the FSB frequency or something. Not offering a Dual-CPU config is NOT "Purposely crippling functionality when it doesn?t cost any more to have it there." Nor is fewer slots, fewer HDs, whatever. One extra slot: significant increase in powersupply, more motherboard traces, more motherboard design time, more actual slots, more real estate to design around inside case... And Dual CPUs, um, no.
I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm just saying it won't be FREE.
Personally, with a firewire CD burner, FW external disk, and looking into a tape drive (for a laptop mind)-> I don't see any reason for anyone's obsession with the 'two internal HDs'. 90+% of the expandability complaints always seem to focus on how the iMac graphics cards suck so bad.
Also, I wouldn't say the Power line is _that_ bad. The Dual 867 for 1600 rocks.
Comments
<strong>
I think that would sell too - but _two_ slots & a drive bay -> cannibalized "Power" line.
The ranking of 'how many cards do I use':
0 >> 1 >> 2 >> 3 >> 4 >> expansion chassis..
There's a LOT of towers out there with just one or two cards. If we're making a box to 1) sell well and 2) sell to people that would otherwise not buy a Mac.
The second internal drive bay is also one of the main 'features' of the towers. And it is one that even the iMac folks can get around with a FW enclosure -> skip it for the pizzabox so they lust after something better
I think it would be possible to distinguish between the two line and ensure that the new Cube would only eat at the low end (iMac) sales (with higher margins) and not eat at the PMacs. The PowerMacs would have a faster bus, 4 memory slots instead of 2 and more PCI and drive slots. anyone looking for an entry level machine, but not wanting an iMac and unable to afford a PowerMac would be attracted to this concept I think.
Another solution would be, when the 970 is available, would be to offer a 970 line of PowerMacs at slightly higher prices than current PowerMacs and offer G4 Mac towers at slightly less that current PowerMacs. This might also allow Apple to have a true Professional line up (970) and a prosumer lineup (G4).
[ 10-21-2002: Message edited by: Tulkas ]</p>
<strong>
I think it would be possible to distinguish between the two line and ensure that the new Cube would only eat at the low end (iMac) sales (with higher margins) and not eat at the PMacs. . .
</strong><hr></blockquote>
How about this? Top PowerMacs with dual 970s. The bottom PowerMac with a single 970, for those who do not need the dual performance but want the features of the PowerMac. The tiny tower or cube like model would have a single 970. With a 970 it could sell at a little premium, so if it did take sales from the iMac, the bottom line would look good nonetheless. It would be a really good Mac for games too, would it not?
But I want room for 2 Hard Drives and 1 optical drive as well. Also, one PCI slot, one 4xAGP slot, and a discount coupon for a 17? widescreen LCD monitor. So, iMac^3 + said 17? LCD monitor + coupon = $1,499 USD.
mika.
<strong>Dream on....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why? By the time this thing comes out, $1,500 is going to seem like a fortune for what you?re actually getting..
mika.
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>I like it.
But I want room for 2 Hard Drives and 1 optical drive as well. Also, one PCI slot, one 4xAGP slot, and a discount coupon for a 17? widescreen LCD monitor. So, iMac^3 + said 17? LCD monitor + coupon = $1,499 USD.
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
mika.
[ 10-21-2002: Message edited by: Bigc ]</p>
<strong>Not long ago everyone was whining for 4 pci and 4 HD, Now people want one pci and one HD???
[ 10-21-2002: Message edited by: Bigc ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
This would be for people who want essentially what the iMac offers but don't want: AIO, un-upgradable GPU, fix monitor, no extra drive space etc, and don't need what the PowerMacs offer in terms of: even more drives, more PCI, fastest bus or latest and gratest cpu. These people need the Cube, but at a reasonable price (like low iMac range), with standard size upgrades.
Those who wanted even more expandability are at the other end of the market. When Apple killed the clones, it was because they weren't growing the market, especially at the low end. The were just canabilizing the mid to high end markets. Apple managed to get there partly on the own, with the iMac, now I think is the time to get where they wanted the clones to get them...the entry level user, who doesn't want built-in-unupgradble-everthing the AIO offers, and don't need everything the PowerMac offers. You want to spread this Mac platform out of it's existing niche? You have to start offering products the break out of your traditional niches.
<strong>This would be for people who want essentially what the iMac offers but don't want: AIO, un-upgradable GPU, fix monitor, no extra drive space etc, and don't need what the PowerMacs offer in terms of: even more drives, more PCI, fastest bus or latest and gratest cpu. These people need the Cube, but at a reasonable price (like low iMac range), with standard size upgrades.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So:
Return of the Pizzabox. They did sell very well.
ONE slot. Converter bridge allows it to be AGB or PCI.
One HD spot.
One CPU.
One optical drive - up to and including the superdrive.
Std: 2 FW external, 4 USB external, built-in cheese-graphics, airport std, 2 GB RAM max.
Yes, I'd limit it to _one_ HD. There's a firewire port if you need more, it isn't that much of a hassle, and if you have enough envy -> Power line.
The firewire enclosures are a little steep - but you can swap the innards out if you like. And the FW drives aren't insanely expensive, just steep.
I'd think Apple could sell one of those starting at $800. Maybe less. I mean, it's an eMac without the monitor - but instead you get to upgrade bits a little bit. $200 gets you a second drive (external), $200 gets you a rocking GPU, $200 -> max ram, $200 for superdrive-upgrade...
I would say this competes head-to-head with the iMac, and does nothing for-or-against an all Dual-CPU Power line. I think there's room for it though. I'd make it thin-VCR sized for some reason
<strong>
So:
Return of the Pizzabox. They did sell very well.
ONE slot. Converter bridge allows it to be AGB or PCI.
One HD spot.
One CPU.
One optical drive - up to and including the superdrive.
Std: 2 FW external, 4 USB external, built-in cheese-graphics, airport std, 2 GB RAM max.
Yes, I'd limit it to _one_ HD. There's a firewire port if you need more, it isn't that much of a hassle, and if you have enough envy -> Power line.
The firewire enclosures are a little steep - but you can swap the innards out if you like. And the FW drives aren't insanely expensive, just steep.
I'd think Apple could sell one of those starting at $800. Maybe less. I mean, it's an eMac without the monitor - but instead you get to upgrade bits a little bit. $200 gets you a second drive (external), $200 gets you a rocking GPU, $200 -> max ram, $200 for superdrive-upgrade...
I would say this competes head-to-head with the iMac, and does nothing for-or-against an all Dual-CPU Power line. I think there's room for it though. I'd make it thin-VCR sized for some reason
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
This is exactly the kind of thinking that has sent Apple to the dumpster.
Purposely crippling functionality when it doesn?t cost any more to have it there. Just because the Power line sux shit, we can?t have anything that might compete with it in terms of decent modularity. Put a decent CPU or two or four in there, and you won?t have to worry about said completion.
mika.
<strong>Regarding the PowerMac enclosure, here is something to think about. We are in an economic down turn, and Apple just posted a loss. They will want to invest product design dollars in things that greatly increase sales, like totally-new products. When the IBM 970 comes out in the PowerMacs, these PowerMacs will sell extremely well in the existing enclosure. Making a new enclosure for it will not affect sale much, if at all. So, I'm more or less expecting the new PowerMacs to look the same as they do now, with just a few cosmetic changes.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I disagree. The el capitan is dead, played, tired. Also, it was designed for the Moto chip in Jan not the 970. The 970 is totally new tech, new aim, new direction, new image of real speed. Apple needs a new enclosure to make a new statement for the new line of towers to bring in new sales. There's a few reasons why tower sales suck. If you are going to completely change the inside, then completely change the outside as well.
<strong>
This is exactly the kind of thinking that has sent Apple to the dumpster.
Purposely crippling functionality when it doesn?t cost any more to have it there. Just because the Power line sux shit, we can?t have anything that might compete with it in terms of decent modularity. </strong><hr></blockquote>
2 firewire ports _are_ decent modularity. I agree in part: Apple could make a 2 HD-spot, 2 Optical drive, 2 slot computer for a lot less than the current PowerMacs. Let's call it the PizzaMac.
But the market for the current PowerMacs is not 100% number crunchers/top end elite 'Pro' users. If half of the Power buyers buy Pizza boxes, 1/3 of the iMac buyers switch over to Pizza boxes, and a chunk of gamers/upgrade/hot rod diehards buy one -> great. PizzaMac a smash success. And I think it _would be_.
But you'd draw enough people out of buying the PowerMac line that Apple would scuttle it.
'Hooray' I hear you saying. That's fine - but the 'Pro' buyers that are the other half of the PowerMac buyers would be left with precisely zero Macs that are anywhere near sufficiently capable. Congrats, we've killed, staked, and buried a niche that Apple is (and has always been) quite comfortable in. We swapped it for a niche of extremely price-conscious, fickle, fad-driven folk. Gross margins are down 15% on the year, now what? (Marketshare up 1 whole % = woot!)
It is intentional crippling when there's jumpers on the motherboard that limit the FSB frequency or something. Not offering a Dual-CPU config is NOT "Purposely crippling functionality when it doesn?t cost any more to have it there." Nor is fewer slots, fewer HDs, whatever. One extra slot: significant increase in powersupply, more motherboard traces, more motherboard design time, more actual slots, more real estate to design around inside case... And Dual CPUs, um, no.
I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm just saying it won't be FREE.
Personally, with a firewire CD burner, FW external disk, and looking into a tape drive (for a laptop mind)-> I don't see any reason for anyone's obsession with the 'two internal HDs'. 90+% of the expandability complaints always seem to focus on how the iMac graphics cards suck so bad.
Also, I wouldn't say the Power line is _that_ bad. The Dual 867 for 1600 rocks.